Lee C309-170-F in 308 win and 30-06 for hunting

[espea101]

Hi everyone, been lurking for a while, wanted to get some direct info from you now.

Rifles are a Smith and Corona 30-06 (unknown rifling twist, to me anyway) and a Savage Axis 308 Win, 1-10 twist.

I have the above mold on order and will be casting with WW + 2% tin (95/5 tin anitmony solder) with gas checks and then water quenching, hoping to get around BH 16 after aging. I will use the Lee 309 sizer initially, though I plan to try out the 310/311 sizer as well, if the results at 309 are unsatifactory.

My question comes from lots of searching and few results specific to the 308 win and this mold (plenty of people seem to use this for 30-30).

As of now, I want to load this boolit for hunting (with some plinking) out of both rifles. I have heard of 26-32 gr of 4895 being a good/great load, but my Lyman casting manual doesn't go that high (aka slower powder=high in my brain) generally on cast boolits, only using faster powders like 3031, 5744, 2400, Unique, etc.

I want to recreate at least 2100 fps muzzle velocity to ensure 1000 ft/lbs out to 150 yards so I can ensure ethical kills on deer and elk (I know, good luck getting that close to an elk;)). According to http://www.handloads.com/calc/ with 2100 fps, 170 grain boolit, -15 temperature(:groner:), ballistic coefficient of .268 and altitude of 5280, I should be abel to get this kind of result. And, unfortunately, I don't have a chrono to measure this.

What powders to use? What starting gr and max gr to look for?
I have seen mention of dacron filler at 1/2 to 3/4 gr, would this ride on top of the powder, underneath the boolit?

I could ask more questions, and any answers will create more questions I am sure. I have been really impressed with the knowledge and willingness to help on this forum so far. Please excuse the newby questions.

Also, since I know this can effect things, I am/ will be using these rifles between 4-9k ft above sea level. Thank you in advance of your help!

[popper]

I don't use that mould but I do use 40 gr. H4895 in my 308 AR carbine, 10 twist, GC, >2100 .310 . I don't use filler, your '06 may need it for accuracy but the 4895 is safe at light loads. Get an FCD as that mould may not let you crimp in the groove and keep the GC in the neck.

[espea101]

Get an FCD as that mould may not let you crimp in the groove and keep the GC in the neck.

I had not even looked into these yet.

I am going to be using the lee loader for the 308, would I need a single stage press to use the FCD, or would it work in the lee loader setup?

[popper]

The FCD needs a press. I've seen a Lee loader but never used one. You will have to figure out how to size (Lee push thru?), seat gas checks and crimp if needed with the tools you have. I think it is wild bill that is doing the same thing with the Lee loader but he has a single shot rifle. You could PM him.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

i have a few of the 309-170s cast up and some 308 brass handy , no the crimp groove will not keep the GC in the neck

but the first lube groove looks like it will

[OnHoPr]

You might try powders in the 4064 to 4350 range for an easier push on the mid BHN's and the 1 in 10' twist.

[espea101]

but the first lube groove looks like it will

Alright, so I am still very new to this whole thing.

I will need to get the gas check to the first lube groove in order for it to seat above the bottom the case neck in the 308?

I am just trying to verify as much info as possible.


If your S-C has an original military barrel it will be 1-10" twist.

Lyman's 47th has rifle powder loads for both of those calibers well beyond 2000fps.


Thanks for the info on the rifle!

I will obviously have to read more book! :smile:


I think it is wild bill that is doing the same thing with the Lee loader but he has a single shot rifle. You could PM him.

I will seek him out.

[geargnasher]

I would reconsider that alloy for hunting. Water-quenched 30/70 wheel weights/pure lead with 1% total tin added will do better on game in the 1800-2K fps range that you're likely going to be working in for reasonable accuracy. Water-quenched wheel weights are hard and poke tiny holes.

As for powder, there is quite a bit of difference in case capacity between the .308 and .30-'06, so you may or may not be able to use the same powder for both. Something between IMR 4198 and 4350 will do. I'm going to get flamed for this, but some flavor of 4895 might do both just fine if you play with it some, but don't expect top accuracy at 2100 fps with it. You really need a chronograph with cast boolits if you're loading to a specific level because there are so many variables with case tension, boolit hardness, engagement surface area, lube viscosity/lubricity (which can go wonky at cold temps just like powder can), barrel length you name it. Much more difficult to predict from published data than jacketed stuff.

Gear

[mroliver77]

I use a heavier 311284 200+gr boolit for hunting in the .30's. I have found that if the boolit is traveling close to 2000 at impact the somewhat blunt nose of these cast does quite a bit of damage. I have see many 1 inch holes that pass through deer from this boolit. With the heavier boolits you get the higher energy with lower speed.

For 150 yard shooting I would be comfortable with a 3 inch group. Let's get you casting and shooting then we will see what your guns will do with cast and speed. I am sure somebody will help you out with other boolit designs if you need.

I rarely crimp rifle boolits and have not had any troubles.
Jay

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

Alright, so I am still very new to this whole thing.

I will need to get the gas check to the first lube groove in order for it to seat above the bottom the case neck in the 308?




not to change my answer but i rechecked by making a cut away and not just holding the boolit next to the brass it is so very close it will depend on the length of your brass , make a cut away and you will see

i did that this morning , it ruins one piece of brass but knowing is worth it run a slot length wise down one side of a peice of brass i just drug the case on the hack saw blade till i had a slot cut then press a boolit into the case with a gas check on if the forward edge of the gas check is still in the neck your good to go measure that an duplicate

[popper]

Seat the CB to set the GC at the neck-shoulder joint and check(dummy round) that it is deep enough to chamber in the rifles. You may not need a real crimp but a way to remove the bell you put in the case mouth to allow easier seating of the cast. H4895 is probably a good starting point, maybe not the best choice but safe for anything under max loads. Varget works in my 308 for jacketed, haven't tried it for cast, it is more $$. Unique/2400 probably won't give the ballistics you want and shoot like a pop-gun load. Shoot a bunch of those and then try going to full bore - you almost get to relearn shooting. I think the Lee loaders are OK for jacketed but let me just say life is easier with a press and proper dies in cast.

[OnHoPr]

I might have to try that alloy geargnasher. Do use oven or WD?

[geargnasher]

OHP, use either method. Hardened, low-antimony alloys have been discussed quite a bit here over the years and work very well because they are tough enough to shoot well (when taylored to the use) yet malleable enough to expand on game. I usually use 50/50, but it can still be too hard for 1800 fps, it likes 2200 a lot more. One caveat is to add just a pinch of tin to prevent antimony wash in rifles, since most WW alloy these days and range scrap originating from jacketed bullet cores and .22 LR/slugs has basically no tin. That little bit of tin helps the casting qualities and mitigates brittleness also.

Air-cooled versions work great for a lot of pistol work, too, and heat-treating makes a good magnum handgun alloy.

Gear

[espea101]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I was away from the desk a few days and had other stuff come up. I will review the responses and formulate some more questions! geargnasher, I may rethink my alloy selection.

[geargnasher]

Use the Lee Loader, they make very accurate ammunition. You may need to use a tapered alignment punch to expand the mouth a bit for cast boolits, just enough that the top of the gas check sits flush with the mouth. Adjust your cartridge overall length (seating depth) so that the boolit just contacts the cone in the throat. You do not need to crimp, adjust the Loader so that it only removes enough of the bellmouth for them to chamber easily.

Gear

[MT Chambers]

I wouldn't buy a special die to crimp, but I would buy a set of full length dies, to full length size and leave the neck so it gives good tension on the bullet, the seating die in a set will do all the crimping you'll ever need.

[espea101]

OK, so I am getting that I should be looking at water quenched 70/30 pb/ww +1% tin, or 50/50 +1% tin for a hunting boolit, as they will be softer and expand better at 1800-2100 fps than WQWW +1% tin.

Also hearing that I should be shooting for 1800-2000 fps instead of trying to shoot too fast, again for better expansion and accuracy. Is leading an issue when its pushed slower?

As far as powders go, I am seeing 4064 is popular as well as 4198 and 4350. 4895 is getting a few questions as to usability and accuracy at the higher end for velocity.

So I guess, I am looking at WQ 70/30 PB/WW +1% Tin in 4064 or 4198. Thanks all, I am possibly going to start casting this weekend, and will defineately be looking herre for reminders. My brother has the manual right now and I will be casting with him, so we'll defineately be flipping through that for final thoughts.

The Lee Loader is pretty slick. Does it do everything? No, but I am very impressed by the compact and hugely useful nature of it. I also prefer the fact that I don't have to spend tons of cash to get started.

Thank you all for your help, and if anyone else wants to chime in on my conclusions, please do!

[Larry Gibson]

I've used the similar 311041 in the .308W and the '06 for many years hunting deer and such. I've used it in 10 and 12" twist barrels, appears yours are probably 10" twists. 2100 fps with hunting accuracy using that Lee bullet is is possible with both cartridges but carefull casting and loading is necessary.

I suggest a softer alloy; COWWs + 2% tin and then add 50% lead. I suggest sizing at "as cast" diameter or .311 at the largest. Use a good softer lube like the NRA formula. Use good GCs and make sure they are squarely and solidly seated.

4895 is the fastest (corrected from the erroniously stated "slowest" in original text) powder I would use but would actually look at Varget, AA4350, RL19, H4831SC or RL22 in both cartridges. With any them having a loading density less than 80% I would use a 1/2 gr dacron filler.

To maintain best accuracy I use a clean barrel and clean every 7-8 shots to maintain best accuracy with the softer alloy above 1900 fps. It's a pain for a regular load but for hunting if you've not got the critter in 7 shots you might as well go home and clean the rifle anyway..........

Larry Gibson

[popper]

4895 is the slowest powder I would use Larry, Varget is slower. Did you mean fastest powder you would use? I've used Varget, XBR & ARcomp in my 308, to me H4895 works well and most forgiving to a new reloader. It is also the best $$ wise of what I've used.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, that's what I meant; 4895 is the fastest powder I would use. Had using a "slower" powder on brain when I typed that.....thanks for the catch.

Larry Gibson

[espea101]

I suggest a softer alloy; COWWs + 2% tin and then add 50% lead. I suggest sizing at "as cast" diameter or .311 at the largest. Use a good softer lube like the NRA formula. Use good GCs and make sure they are squarely and solidly seated.

4895 is the fastest (corrected from the erroniously stated "slowest" in original text) powder I would use but would actually look at Varget, AA4350, RL19, H4831SC or RL22 in both cartridges. With any them having a loading density less than 80% I would use a 1/2 gr dacron filler.
Larry Gibson

Thanks for responding Larry!

So, for my edification, the 2% tin is by weight and in relation the the pre-lead COWW mix, i.e:
1 lb of COWW + .32 oz of Tin = 1.02 lb of alloy. Then, 1.02 lbs alloy+ .51 lbs lead = 1.53 lbs softer Larry-approved-alloy?

Lubes is a place I am still learning huge amounts of stuff. Is LLA considered hard or soft?

(I know, this thread is getting way off topic).

So after all suggestions, I am still getting that softer alloy than COWW by itself and then water quenching is a good idea for hunting.

Larry is susggesting a much slower powder than most have suggested, but what it often comes down to in all my searches here and elsewhere, H4895 is a good-great powder for my rifle.

Dacron filler, can I use the cheap polyester filling from a dog-bitten pillow, or should I go find "dacron"?

[espea101]

To revive this thread, I wanted to say, that I have not had the most chances to get out there and play with my load. However, I guessed, based on the suggestions here and reading lots and lots (hint: thats really the key, read and learn a lot) and ended up using IMR 4895 31.5 grains behind the thread started- boolit, (which with the suggested alloy, as near as I can get it, drops at 178-178.5 grains every time and water quenched), no dacron filler. I finally got on paper at 100 yard (crappy scope, no boresight, lots of wasted lead). Once on paper, I was able to call my shots, each and every one of them, within an inch of adjustment. Got it sighted in offhand sitting (crosslegged, elbows in front of knees) and am just tickled.

Larry, and everyone who contributed, thank you. You made a believer out of a young boolit-reloader. Lots of things have come up the last couple years keeping me from playing with other loads (two new little ones, couple new broken cars and a new job), but I was edified here and thought I should update and give thanks where due.

[scattershot]

Glad it's working out for you. One suggestion , though, when you're working with a new rifle/ load, start close, 25 yards or so to get on paper. It's a lot less frustrating, and you won't waste so many of those hard-won boolits.

[facetious]

I also have try'ed that boolit in my Ruger .308 and it didn't shoot to good for me but shot good for a friend in his 30-06. After learning more about this stuff I found that the nose was to small for my gun. I could push the nose in to the end of the barrel and turn it vary easily. This is some thing to try. Sounds like yours fits better than mine did.

[espea101]

Thanks scattershot, I knew at the time I must have been missing something in the set up stage! Like I said though, its on now, and boy is it fun! Now, on to the 357!