NY Militia Rolling Block replaced with . . . ?

[JHeath]

I'm trying to learn what NY replaced their Rolling Blocks with, and the circumstances. I found an 1896 JAG advisory letter telling NY that the state could at its own expense purchase and use rifles other than those used by the federal government. I'm wondering why NY bothered to ask for permission.

[Ed in North Texas]

Danged if I can find anything official on this. Not even rumors, for that matter. I have read, multiple times, that the NYSM RBs served to 1895. Your JAG letter would support that time period (looking for new weapons in '96). The timing is likely wrong for replacing with US Krag rifles and carbines, the Regular Army was still quite small in 1896 (IIRC at the opening of the Spanish-American War the Regulars numbered somewhere around 40,000), but I'd suspect all of the Springfield Armory Krag production was going to the Regular Army.

Needless to say, the .50-70 was really obsolete by the late '90s. But there were units which went to the Spanish-American War with .45-70 Black Powder Trapdoors (the Army had a real problem with expanding from that roughly 40,000 troops to over 200,000 nearly overnight).

Good luck with the search. If I happen to find something in the near future, I'll post it

Ed

[Multigunner]

During WW2 the New York National Guard was attached to the British 8th Army and were issued SMLE rifles. They retained their American uniforms and web gear.

A few Trapdoor Springfield were carried by U S guards at ports in France.
Some U S Artillerymen carried Krag rifles.

[Ed in North Texas]

I've dug up a report by the State Historian of the NY NG service in the Spanish American War. It is slow going, with over 600 pages to check. I'm quitting tonight with the 1st NY Volunteer Infantry, dispatched to Hawaii in time for the Annexation. The report states that this NY unit raised the first American flag in Honolulu. Here's the only passage I've found thus far relating to weapons, and it might be indicative that they still had the RBs (?). It is a report of an IG inspection of the unit, March 1899:

""The arms and equipments were, considering their age, in really wonderful condition. I inspected them quite minutely and did not find a poor musket in the ten companies. Many of them were faultless and almost all in first class condition. This of course refers to their care."

Ed

[JHeath]

Thanks for all the efforts. Maybe we'll discover what NY was trying to do, and why they asked for federal permission.

[Multigunner]

Just found something interesting. The Blake revolving magazine bolt action repeating rifle, with a vague mention of testing done by "New York State" in 1896.

Could be New yorkers were looking to find a bolt action replacement for the RB, and testing a number of designs as an alternative to the Krag rifle.

PS
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/america-ascending/case-60-evolution-of-the-mauser-rifle-bolt-action-technology/blake-bolt-action-repeating-rifle.aspx

An interesting design. The aluminum spindles could be carried preloaded, allowing quick reloading of seven rounds per spindle.

From a list of American Gunmakers.



BLAKE, John Henry — Maker of a bolt action, 7-shot, revolving
magazine sporting rifle. Similar military type tested by an
Ordnance Board of Governor's Island, N. Y., in July 1891.




Antique Gun 1472. Blake Bolt Action Magazine Rifle.
Submitted to the tests of 1892 by J. H. Blake, 136 Liberty St. New York City. Also submitted to the US Navy tests of 1895 and the 1896 State of New York tests. Although the results were good, this rifle was not adopted. Only 300 made, the first 15 mounted in brass.

http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/808/blake.html

[JHeath]

Just found something interesting. The Blake revolving magazine bolt action repeating rifle, with a vague mention of testing done by "New York State" in 1896.

Could be New yorkers were looking to find a bolt action replacement for the RB, and testing a number of designs as an alternative to the Krag rifle.

PS
http://www.nramuseum.org/the-museum/the-galleries/america-ascending/case-60-evolution-of-the-mauser-rifle-bolt-action-technology/blake-bolt-action-repeating-rifle.aspx

An interesting design. The aluminum spindles could be carried preloaded, allowing quick reloading of seven rounds per spindle.

That's great. It sounds like another example of NY wanting to spend their money in-state. Wonder how often states have tried to go their own way with militia weapons.

[Ed in North Texas]

I found an entry in the section on the 2d NY Volunteer Regiment regarding the ammunition load for the infantrymen. When preparing to load on transports for movement to Cuba, the troops were issued 100 rounds of ammunition. The 2d NY Vols remained in FL as there was a lack of space on the ships for all the units to be moved with the 2d Division. The 2d was ordered to return to NY in late 1898.

I then finally got smart* and started a search for "rifle", with the following results:

The first note of an actual rifle (as opposed to rifle practice, rifle range, etc.) was a reference to the “Springfield rifle” during the campaign in Cuba. The entry:

“The Springfield rifle, against the use of which the regulars had reasonably complained, because of the black powder, which drew the fire of the enemy, could be fired safely at night. The Seventy-first utilized their muskets with disastrous effect upon the enemy.”

Obviously this entry addresses the “Trapdoor” Springfield Rifle and not the US Magazine Rifle, Caliber .30, Models of 1892, 1896 or 1898 (AKA Krag-Jorgenson)

The next search find is even more explicit. Regarding the attack on San Jaun Hill, Cuba by the 71st NY:

“General Kent might, with truth, have said, first, that the Seventy-first got up the hill in ample time to have a list of loss as heavy as any other regiment : second, that it went into action realizing that every shot fired from its Springfield rifle made it a target for the enemy with smokeless powder; and, third, that it made a target of itself and went into the charge, though whole companies of regulars, armed with Krag-Jorgensons, which are almost smokeless, yelled to ‘get out of here with those Springfields.’ “

And further: “Meanwhile I met more than a score of Seventy-first men who had picked up Krag-Jorgensens on the hillside and were pleading for permission to use them instead of their black powder rifles. They were not allowed to do so, however, and had to turn their new-found Krags over to the ordnance officer.”

I think it is reasonable to argue that the NY Militia (National Guard name change at about this time in the century) there is little better evidence to be found that the troops had retired the .50-70 1872 NY State Militia Model Remington Rolling Block and had re-armed with .45-70 Springfield rifles, most likely surplus to Regular Army use after adoption of the US Magazine Rifle, Caliber .30.

Ed


* Smart as far as reducing the time this was taking. The reading was interesting otherwise. Among other things about the 2d I read was that Typhoid Fever was endemic in FL at the time and a number of 2d soldiers died either in FL military tent hospitals, or even after being returned to their homes in NY. I had a personal interest in that information as I had experienced a "very mild case" of Typhoid Fever a few hours after a killed bacteria booster shot in early 1965. The Army doctor decided I had encountered Salmonella Typhi bacteria eating off-post, which was acting as a live bacteria booster. The Army booster pushed my immune system too far. All I can say is the very mild case which laid me up for several days caused me to say I never, ever wanted to experience a full case of Typhoid Fever. :-(

[JHeath]

Interesting. Sounds like when deployed, NY used federal-standard arms and ammo, but had recently asked JAG if it were permissible to purchase non-standard arms. Guess I need to check with the NY Nat. Guard and see is they standardized any other rifle between the Rolling Block and the '03. Thanks, Ed!

[Ed in North Texas]

I guess that by the time, or shortly after, the response to the request and any advertising for bids/testing, the RA had sufficient numbers of Trapdoors to supply the units making up the US Volunteer Army. Perhaps sufficient numbers of rifles and carbines to equip the newly named National Guard (though not quite the same entity as now known). I can't tell for sure if the units brought their weapons with them from home station, or whether they were issued at "Camp Black" (named after the Governor of NY at the time). Given what I've read about the supply problems in mobilizing the RA for Cuba (IIRC "With the Gatling Gun Detachment in Cuba" was the title of the Detachment CO's memoir which gave some details I've never read elsewhere), it would be a minor miracle if they managed to get sufficient weapons to a single point in each state mobilizing troops.

Ed

[JHeath]

According to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_99

in 1896 the New York Nat. Guard tested the 1895 Winchester but selected the 1895 Savage (which became the Model 99), in cal. .30-40. Savage was located in Utica NY. Winchester complained the the selection was rigged in Savage's favor, and succeeded in having the contract canceled.

[Ed in North Texas]

According to Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_99

in 1896 the New York Nat. Guard tested the 1895 Winchester but selected the 1895 Savage (which became the Model 99), in cal. .30-40. Savage was located in Utica NY. Winchester complained the the selection was rigged in Savage's favor, and succeeded in having the contract canceled.

Sounds reasonable, and provides further verification of the original source reports which made it obvious the NYNG was armed with the Trapdoor Springfield during the Spanish American War. Too bad Winchester had the political clout, Model 95s in .30-40 would have been better armament.

We can't tell now how much strain that would have put on a poor (p*ss poor actually) US Army supply system. There were RA units with Krag rifles, but could the supply system have provided much more .30 US ammunition? I've read some horror stories about how bad it was. At the start of the War, the Regular Army was run like one large unit. All supply requisitions had to go to the Department of the Army, to be signed off on by the Quartermaster General. According to a report by the CO of the experimental Gatling Gun Detachment, ammunition arrived in Florida ports in crates. In order to determine what ammunition was contained in a crate, the crate had to be unpacked and the different types of ammunition sorted out (crates were apparently packed by tossing whatever came to hand into the crate, according to the referenced CO). So his .45-70 ammo might come in a crate with both .30 US and 1 Inch field gun shells. It was all re-packed by type for loading on the ships to go to Cuba.

We weren't in much better shape when the Expeditionary force went to Mexico, and not much better when the first Expeditionary force troops went to France for WW I. We were somewhat better off in 1941.

Ed