What are your lube "Performance Parameters"?

[geargnasher]

As part of the work being done and reported on the "Extreme Lube" thread, we need to re-establish a general "bar" for what a lube must do. The point being to engineer a lube to perform in all situations, we must know what ARE those situations. I'm going to start with a list of my own based partly on much that has already been discussed, and will edit to add to it the suggestions you make as we go.

1. Must be temperature insensitive. The lube must be able to stand long strings of shooting in the heat without deteriorating groups, and must have minimal "cold barrel" characteristics, keeping POI constant to 1 MOA through starts and stops. Ambients of 105F to ZeroF seems reasonable to me.

2. Must be velocity insensitive. To me, this means SOFT, I want the lube to work in .45 Colt revolvers at Cowboy Action velocities as well as extremely high velocities in rifles with fast twists where high pressure and high land force is the norm. I'm going to say 700 fps from .30-45 caliber is a good bench mark for the low end, and the high end will be whatever your loading skills can be. Many cast shooters don't care to get above 16-1800 fps with accuracy in .30 caliber (for example), but some will, and those who shoot at very high velocity need this lube to NOT be the limiting factor. For those shooting at milder velocities, "Extreme Lube" would still offer all the other advantages outlined here, which is more than 95% of the formulas I've tried will do.

3. Must be insensitive to barrel surface finish. Some guns have rough bores, some pitted bores, some highly polished. This affects lube performance greatly, but some recent work has proven that a lube can be formulated for both.

4. Must work with conventional lube-sizing equipment. I do not consider compatibility with the pan-lube technique a requirement for the lube, but some may. My gut tells me a truly "Extreme" lube won't melt easily below the smoke point of most waxes. Some of the high melt-point lubes can be poured into stick moulds when they are made, since they aren't easily remelted and poured into sizers.

5. Must work with a variety of lube groove designs from Loverin to Lee to Keith to Silhouette styles. This is all about viscosity, lubricity, being cohesive, and having the right tack. The biggest issue to achieving this is being able to do it across a wide temperature range. Edit to add that we want the lube to be minimally sensitive to number of grooves lubed on a multi-groove boolit, although a Loverin boolit with seven grooves lubed is likely to shoot differently than it would with only the space just above the gas check lubed no matter the formula, just to give an extreme example. If you lube them all the same for the same gun, it doesn't matter.

6. Must be storage and handling friendly. Must not corrode brass or equipment, must stay in the grooves during handling, and must not leak into the powder when subjected to 160F (direct summer sunlight in some climates).

7. Must be able to tolerate being blown out of the groove and run over by the boolit in the bore. This is often what happens with fast pressure curves and sloppy boolit fit. Some lubes excel at this, others only work in "benchrest" situations where fit tolerance is less than half a thousandth. Difficult to establish a test standard for this one since it's so subjective, but a group of people testing one formula in a variety of guns can come to a consensus.

8. Must leave consistent bore fouling, i.e. satisfy Eutectic's Consistency Of Residuals Encountered (CORE) concept. This is key to hunting accuracy and multi-temp performance. My personal standard for this is two, ten-shot groups fired in succession starting from a clean barrel compared to two more, ten-shot successive groups fired from one day to a week later with NO BARREL CLEANING. A second requirement is to be able to maintain accuracy for at least 500 rounds between major cleanings. Some lube ingredients, in my experience, cannot do this. Alox 350 is one, we think due to calcium buildup in the bore. Lubes with too much Molybdenum disulphide can have the same disadvantage. It goes without saying that the lube formula, as a single factor, must not promote lead fouling of the bore.

9. Must not affect accuracy by "clinging" to the boolit after it exits the gun. I call it "lube jettison", and use point-blank tests where I shoot through cardboard to observe the spatter pattern, condition, and quantity. I want all the lube gone from the boolit within two full boolit revolutions post-muzzle.

10. Must be relatively non-toxic. No Teflon or chlorine/flourine produced in decomposition, or similar hazards.

11. Must be able to make the lube from readily obtainable ingredients, which excludes such things as must normally be purchased by the boxcar load or drum, or by special permit.

12. As an added bonus, it would be nice if the lube were compatible with black powder as well as smokeless, even though moisture content requirements are typically contradictory.

An important note: No lube can overcome poor fit, unsuitable boolit design, or poor loading techniques. Much of what accounts for "good" or "bad" lube formulations involves the guns and ammunition themselves, not so much the lube formula. Some lubes DO tolerate less-than-ideal conditions than others, but lube alone won't make your rifle shoot.

**What a good lube WILL do is be transparant, in that is doesn't DETRACT from the accuracy potential that the handloader builds into a given gun/ammo system.**

Let's hear what everyone else has established for lube testing standards, keeping in mind what you'd want if someone designed a lube to work just for you, and I'll update this list with suggestions.

Gear

[runfiverun]

even if y'all aren't sure what your lube requirements are.
let us know what you do or don't like about a specific lube.
gummy- gooey.
hot/cold.
what do you expect a lube to do for you [behave].
and how you have tested it or why you changed from one lube to another.

[Bullshop]

In #2 you mention velocity but not pressure.
Many even most lubes will begin to break down at about 50% of the pressure used in modern cartridge factory ammo and some much sooner than that.. Few will make 75% but most lead alloys are not able to handle it either.
Since you are calling this an extream lube wouldnt it have to handle extream pressures as well as moderate pressures?
If so that will eliminate many animal and vegatable ingrediance being used in lube making.

[btroj]

I want the following

- wide temp range without cold starts or lube purging. 0 to 100 F would be nice
- easy to store bullets that are lubed, not so soft is gets all over everything
- easy to make from readily available ingredients
- useful over wide range of applications. I shoot lots of handgun and sub 2K velocity rifle. Must work for all that and have ability to go over 2K fps with good fit, alloy, etc

[Marlin Junky]

btroj,

You might need to sacrifice your "easy to store" requirement to satisfy the others. A certain degree of tack is necessary for a good boolit lube. Personally, I don't find it a problem to lube just before loading.

MJ

[btroj]

I don't mind some mess but overly gooey would be a problem. I bulk pack Felix lubed bullets, those lubed with Bens Red, and with MML. None of those is a very hard lube.

I just like to cast and lube when I can. I store many lubed bullets and I assure you they aren't in neat little rows in a box. I just wipe off the noses if it bugs me too much.

[Marlin Junky]

9. Must not affect accuracy by "clinging" to the boolit after it exits the gun. I call it "lube jettison", and use point-blank tests where I shoot through cardboard to observe the spatter pattern, condition, and quantity. I want all the lube gone from the boolit within two full boolit revolutions post-muzzle.



Gear,

You got a high speed camera or are you just gonna scrap all the boolit lube from your cardboard lab and weigh it after each shot? :bigsmyl2:

But seriously, soft and tacky with a high melt temp is good. A 160F melt temp gets me all weak in the knees and I would think is possible (or at least approachable) with the right amount of grease and beeswax. Heck, beeswax alone melts in the 145F neighborhood.

MJ

[geargnasher]

Dan: You bring up a good point, but you have to define how "pressure" affects lube. What happens that higher gas pressures make a lube "break down'? Do we need separate definitive test requirement for pressure and velocity? Since pressure-time curve, bore diameter, and rifling angle are all closely related to "velocity", I just mentioned the velocity part rather than pressure. Plus, most of us have chronographs but not pressure trace equipment.

The way I see it, gas pressure on the base affects lube indirectly once it's engraved. Land pressure under acceleration is the killer, as is loss of obturation, which cannot be entirely contained by lube, but is a product of balancing/maintaining powder gas pressure and having the right alloy for the job. Before the boolit is engraved, throat/neck fit and the dynamics of the boolit under starting pressure determines how much lube blows out. At high pressures, we sometimes see gas-cutting of the boolits and throat leading that happens before the boolit is corked up tightly in the bore; if lead alloy gas cuts, there isn't a wax/grease-based lube out there that can resist. In other words, I don't think a lube can be made hard enough to make much difference to the pressure in that instance. I mentioned velocity because the acceleration required to achieve high velocity is really tough on the leading edge of the engraves along the sides of the boolit, and the lube has to do it's job there by maintaining a film barrier so the lead doesn't abrade and open up trailing edge leaks. I intended to imply that pressure, because it's needed to make velocity, is part of #2.

Brad, I'll add the part about the ingredient list. Most of the stuff I'm working toward is soft by the NRA standards, but not impossibly soft or sticky, either. I'd just use straight grease if it were practical!

MJ, you laugh, but I actually use waxed paper over the cardboard sometimes to recover and weigh the amount of lube. I've come close to 90% recovery levels with some lubes, with the remainder being lost as smoke.

Gear

[357maximum]

My requirements:

I want 1inch or better groups at 100 yards anytime I choose to do it at the speed I choose to do it.


I want the cartridge design, gun strength and the laws of physics to be the "limiting" factors.


I want the nut behind the bolt to be the "unknown" factor of the day and nothing else.

I am actually pretty close to where I wanna be, but if the world was perfect......oh well I would "tweak" a few things. [smilie=2:

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have shot my 30 BR in to SUB 1/2 MOA @ 1900 with NRA 50-50 --RCBS Green--Lee Liq Alox--LBt Blue--even Darr #2.In temps from 20deg to about 95 deg.Cant say i could draw a clear conclusion accuracy wise to lube formula's one way or the other.if it was hot it needed to be shot slower and if cold i had to fire more sighters to warm it up.Sometimes in hot summer maches a bit of lube smeared on the nose seems to help.(other times not?)

George

[geargnasher]

George, that's exactly why we're looking for something better, for times when we don't have the luxury of burning a few into the berm and taking our "money shot" right after that while the barrel is at optimum temperature. This whole mess got started because a few of us kept finding we had to tweak our particular favorite lubes to meet seasonal demands. One of us here (you know who you are!) still uses the old NRA lube (vaseline, beeswax, paraffin) and does better than most of us ever will. Thing is, if he comes to Texas in the summer he's screwed, that lube won't hold up for beans in the heat.

Mike, I do believe you have the short version covered. I'll let you know when we have a formula perfected!

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

MJ, you laugh, but I actually use waxed paper over the cardboard sometimes to recover and weigh the amount of lube. I've come close to 90% recovery levels with some lubes, with the remainder being lost as smoke.

Gear

Gear,

I am impressed by your dedication to the subject. Can you prove one way or the other that there is a correlation between accuracy and "lube jettison"? I would think the only way "lube jettison" (as you put it) would negatively affect accuracy would be if the lube "jettisoned" from only one side of the boolit thus creating an unbalanced situation. Normally lube accounts for less than 1/2% of the payload anyway, so it's hard to imagine that a variance in the amount of remaining lube would have any effect in accuracy at 100 yards. Are you testing at extreme ranges?

MJ

[357maximum]

Mike, I do believe you have the short version covered.

Gear

You been talking to my wife? :oops: Or is Google Earth getting that good?:shock:

[geargnasher]

Gear,

I am impressed by your dedication to the subject. Can you prove one way or the other that there is a correlation between accuracy and "lube jettison"? I would think the only way "lube jettison" (as you put it) would negatively affect accuracy would be if the lube "jettisoned" from only one side of the boolit thus creating an unbalanced situation. Normally lube accounts for less than 1/2% of the payload anyway, so it's hard to imagine that a variance in the amount of remaining lube would have any effect in accuracy at 100 yards. Are you testing at extreme ranges?

MJ

If it didn't matter I wouldn't be concerned about it :) Several 100-yard "patterns" with flecks of lube on the target showed me that some time ago. IIRC the groups were off by 1-2" from the norm. A little less sticky and more slicky and the problem went away and groups returned. This was the very first thing I learned about shooting Felix lube in the wintertime without tweaking it some for my purposes.

Interestingly, I also learned that the same winter formula won't shoot in the heat, groups start showing lots of flyers. Not blown groups per se, but definite frequent flyers. Too much slicky. So back to the regular version and problem fixed again, at least until the next cold spell. Believe it or not, we're not making this stuff up just to add to the challenge.

Gear

[Bullshop]

Dedicated!! That you are. Maybe even obsessed. I really have little to add to what your doing that could improve on your work.
My point was that some of the organics will break down at high pressure. What does break down mean. Well I am not sure what a sientific explenation would be but as best as I can tell it is when the ingrediants loose the quality that they were included for.
In some cases they burn and cause increased smoke and fouling.
Since most booliters will not go anywhere near top safe pressure even for lever guns let alone bolt guns my point carries little weight.
In my mind or understanding it is the base aproximately 1/3 of a boolits bearing length that is the criticle area effected by pressure. I am referring to after the boolit has fully entered the bore and is sealed. The pressure on the sides of the base 1/3 of the boolit should be equal to the pressure at the base/bottom. This would be the portion of a boolit that will under go the most severe obturation. The base apx. 1/3 bearing will be exerting an apx. equal pressure against the interior barrel surface and so friction at this point is the highest. That increased friction at higher pressure is where the issue lies.
That is why the non slick lubes work better at lower pressure and the really slick lubes seem to not do best until the higher pressures are reached.
I think some of the testing I have been reading here proove this idea.
I am thinking of the one I just recently read about a test with a 22 hornet at 2600 fps and another low pressure cartridge in a pitted bore. I dont remember all the details but the idea I got was it was not compairing apples to apples as far as pressure goes.
To say a very slick lube is not good because it didnt give great performance in a cartridge that at top pressure for the cartridge is only in the 20'000 psi area may be missing something. Put the same lube in a cartridge like in this case a 22 hornet with a 48gn boolit at 2600 fps and that lube will act differently. That change in pressure that would have been at least doubled needed the greater lubricity. Add another 10'000 psi and it would need to be greater still.
In reality maybe about 1% of people shooting boolits will ever even try to go there that considering the upper end of extreem pressure in your extreem lube is a moot point.
I am in the 1% but feel I have that part covered.
Its has been fun rambling on my thoughts and I thank you for the opertunity.

[runfiverun]

it's where and when that 1/2% is located that matters.

[Eutectic]

That is why the non slick lubes work better at lower pressure and the really slick lubes seem to not do best until the higher pressures are reached.
I think some of the testing I have been reading here proove this idea.
I am thinking of the one I just recently read about a test with a 22 hornet at 2600 fps and another low pressure cartridge in a pitted bore. I dont remember all the details but the idea I got was it was not compairing apples to apples as far as pressure goes.



You bring up a great point Dan..... But this 'point' is singular in the many points that have to be looked at for a real "Extreme Lube"

Please look at Gear's very thorough listing of numbered items at the beginning. #3 in particular....

As the above guns (test mules) are mine let me explain with more clarity what was going on. The EsterBee formulation I was testing was a little 'slick' but it was as clean a lube as I think I have ever shot! The 2 stroke Polyolester based oil in the formulation burns it seems along with a lot of RESIDUALS of other components.

I have six? maybe a couple more gun and load variations going in my lube testing. Every gun/load choice is picked to test a particular 'point' along with an overall opinion of the lube in general on all 'points'.

The .22 Hornet shouldn't shoot the soft boolit at 2600fps but it does. It likes EsterBee with 2% Carnauba the best. Only three lubes in all my tests pass this gun/load combo. ALL didn't lead but ALL didn't group either! It is also my highest pressure (test mule) although the .414 Super is about the same at around 35,000psi.

The old .38-40 Model 92 has a good bore considering an early life of black powder and corrosive primers. But it does have pits and it can shoot groups; groups so good I hate to post pictures of them! My (hunting and test) load is the old WHV factory equivalent of 1800fps with a 180gr boolit. Probably 20,000 to 23,000psi.

This .38-40 HATES the very same lube mentioned above that my Hornet loves!
No leading.... extremely clean bore..... but double group size.

Yet the Polybutene Felix I now test will shoot to the FULL ability of the gun/load combination in either gun!.

So my 'point' compared between these two guns with one particular lube was actually a comparison of what I have tagged C.O.R.E. or "Consistency of Residuals Encountered".

So 'apples to apples' is kinda close..... But CORE to CORE was actually what I was looking at.

Eutectic

[Marlin Junky]

Believe it or not, we're not making this stuff up just to add to the challenge.

Gear

No, I'm not insinuating you're making anything up. I've gotta assume you have a lot of "miles" on a single test platform though.

I need to get busy with my '06 and C311-170-RF. I've been alternating my time lately between work and being brutalized by my 444 carbine with iron sights.

MJ

[nanuk]

I'd like a Glow in the Dark feature so I could watch it fly like the lighted nock arra's on TV...

[Bullshop]

[QUOTE=runfiverun;1902221]it's where and when that 1/2% is located that matters.[/QUOTE
Are you refering to temperature or temperature extreems?
My testing temps were from as low as -50 but mostly -30 up to about +80.
I didnt have the means to test really hot temps.
Something I did learn was that humidity plays a role in how lube works as well hot or cold.
Truth is you fellas are way over my head and any tidbit I may inject will only be to maybe add a facet of thought to help you come to your conclusions. I am sure you would end up there with zero input from me anyway.
I am not an educated man so am of no help in that regard but I do shoot a lot of boolits and that has been and is an education for me.
I have seen many different lube formula described here at CB and most of the time the users claim for promoting its use was zero leading. I have to chuckle at that because there is so much more to it than just no leading.
Turn up the pressure and the field thins quickly. I have not used polybutene or ever even heard of it until now so am watching what your doing there. For me at the high pressures only the synthetic esters have held up. For carriers I am leaning toward highly refined micro christalin waxes with a very high saturation percentage.
As for plant waxes as additives in my experiance only carnauba can stand the pressure.
I know I seem to keep harping on the high pressure thingy but its because that is where my interest is. Most of my shooting of boolits is geared to hunting so I want full pressure loads. By full pressure I mean anything over 75% of allowable pressure for the cartridge.

[geargnasher]

Keep it coming, Dan, your input is most welcome. "Education" in the realm of shooting cast boolits is what's needed here the most. The majority of us on board with this project are interested in high performance same as you, but also probably want that high-end lube to work in their pistols as well.

Gear

[Eutectic]

Keep it coming, Dan, your input is most welcome. "Education" in the realm of shooting cast boolits is what's needed here the most. The majority of us on board with this project are interested in high performance same as you, but also probably want that high-end lube to work in their pistols as well.

Gear
Dan,

I agree with Gear wholeheartedly! Education is good but experience is even better.

Please keep your comments coming! If you go out testing something... let us know the results!

I yearn for winter to get here for my bitter cold testing to be completed. (hopefully) If you read 'below zero' comments in a few weeks PLEASE feel free to offer your input! We know you have plenty of boolit experience when the temps are minus!

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

dan.
i was talking about the 1/2% of weight that was being jettisoned.

[felix]

Again, it's the CHANGE in pressure from start to finish (the derivative of the entire pressure curve) is what actually classifies the lube pertaining to pressure. Assuming a 22 is shooting 40K cup/psi max and a 30 shooting 40K cup/psi max, which lube would "shoot clean", assuming a 21.75 inch barrel? This matters when "calculating" lube purging, lube starving, and lube starring beginning after 7 shots and keeping the same configuration at the muzzle from then on. ... felix

In short, we need a way to constantly measure dynamics as well as we do statics. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Anybody think we could get Exxon-Mobil a tax write-off if they built and staffed a ballistics lab with a universal receiver, barrels of our choice fitted with pressure transducers every inch, several million-frame-rate cameras, and unlimited access to the lubrication lab and data archives? Oh, and a three-hundred yard indoor range.....?

Gear

[btroj]

Start writing the grant...

[Bullshop]

"""lube purging, lube starving, and lube starring"""
Felix you mention these three things. I cant help thinking that boolit design is as much a factor for all three as is pressure or lube type.
Basicaly all caster/loaders are experimenters always looking for the holy grail. Problem is when we exchange info with each other we may be talking about several different boolit designs.
Some with wide lube grooves or deep or shallow or flat bottom or radious bottom or multy groove or single groove or you name it. Each is going to distribute lube differently as it passes down the barrel. If there was only one boolit design for all calibers we may all be on the same page but that not the case. In order for any test comparison to be meaningful the same design should be used. The same is true of the alloy used. Softer alloy would seem to have a greater or faster hydrolic lube transfer than a harder alloy at equal pressure.
So just the alloy alone would have an effect on the lube purging, lube starving, and lube starring you mention. Agree?
Gear you crack me up! If you dream might as well dream big!

[btroj]

Dan, do you think a lube can be developed that is minimally susceptible to lube purging or lube starving? Something that doesn't leave an excessive film in the bore to interfere with future shots but also isn't blow off the bullet at release from the case neck to the extent that it dries up towards the muzzle.

Seems to me this is part of the ideal we are looking for.

I would like a lube that can be used in lots of grooves or only one with similar results. Messing with each bullet to see how many grooves to fill. I may as well use multiple lubes if I am gonna do that.

[runfiverun]

maybe a charitable research tax write off exists.

we do have a retired chemical engineer here. [and a lube technition engineer guy too]
i have asked him if he would respond to some of the lube threads.
we will see...

[geargnasher]

Dan you put that in perspective pretty well. Here's the thing, though. When going to a lube that is a little different than anything done in the past, some of the factors affected by lube groove design (and pre-engraving dynamic fit, which I'll argue has even more effect) stop being so variable. A soft lube that doesn't melt or lose lubricity in the cold doesn't experience some of the issues that more conventional lubes do. It may not leave a lube star, either. Just something to think about, and why I mentioned #5 and 7 in the OP.

Gear

[PAT303]

Are jacketed bullets this complicated?.I want a lube that works in the heat,it'll be into the mid 40degree C here soon and almost every lube there is melts out at those temps. Pat

[DRNurse1]

Man, you guys make my head hurt, and not in a good way.

Seriously, this is a great thread with many valid "wants" and as many valid "won'ts" for this lube. Maybe it is time to switch to LASER. we can kill it and cook it in one operation and skip all this lube stuff.

Just sayin'

[btroj]

Find me a way to cast my own laser and I am all in.

[MBTcustom]

I dont care if the stuff smells like burning dog poo and needs ingredients made by Belgian monks!
If you guys come up with a lube that can be tested in the extreme summer heat, and used in the extreme cold of winter, and can be stored for two years in loaded cartridges that will be kept in uncontrolled environments, without detriment to the powder or primers, then I will use it exclusively.
Keep up the good work! I doubt that anybody in history has chased the rabbit this far down the hole given the science and technology we have today.
I wish there were funding for this project though, as an Ohler shooting lab, and a High speed video camera would speak volumes as to what is actually going on.

[Eutectic]

Really good info here guys!

The very best boolit lube ever designed will not correct bad boolit fit or bad lube groove design....

On my test mules that have a long established accuracy standard I have been playing with lube groove design as an added test as some of you know.

I think we all like to cast "Keith" type. One bigger squarish type lube groove. We only have to look at sharp corners on one groove. OK for short boolits, particularly handgun boolits I guess. But I see current rifle molds so designed which I question as the best design. Mold/cherry makers like a single groove better too......??

Day dreaming about some huge centrifugal compressors a while back my mind wandered to labyrinth ring type of seals. It is amazing how a close fitting ring with many grooves cut into its I.D. can help seal gas leakage around the high speed shaft...

So I incorporated a couple (three) Ranch Dog designs with several smaller multiple grooves in my tests. I used my test lubes in them not LLA. Yes... they cast harder (both by design and molds) You have to be very careful sizing them as they can size eccentric in a heart beat if you're not careful! But do it right and they shoot most of my smallest groups.

I still don't know if blow-by around our boolit's lube groove(s) is helpful or harmful for sure but testing seems to be leaning towards 'harmful'...

Eutectic

[Bullshop]

"""Dan, do you think a lube can be developed that is minimally susceptible to lube purging or lube starving? Something that doesn't leave an excessive film in the bore to interfere with future shots but also isn't blow off the bullet at release from the case neck to the extent that it dries up towards the muzzle."""

Answer - Yes but!
First lets clarify what is meant by lube purging. Is it referring to lube purging from the boolit in flight changing the ballance or is it referring to lube purging from the barrel changing the condition?
If it is referring to barrel condition then my yes but answer will apply. To explain what I mean by that I have to get back to my harpping point pressure or more precisely varying levels of pressure.
A lube that at lower pressure may leave a heavy or varying film in the barrel that would be susseptable to lube purging from the barrel will act completely differently at some higher point in pressure. It is my feeling that at a pressure at which the bore condition begins to change from black bore to just beginning to show color but still maintans accuracy is an optimal pressure for the components being used. At that point in pressure the barrel condition should remain constant or as much as I can expect.
If someone wanted to test my thoughts try this. Use your favorite lube in loads that would run from low to high pressure. Run dry patches through the bore after varying numbers of shots starting with 1 shot then 2 shots then 3 shots ect. until you get to a number of shots that shows weather or not lube is building up in the barrel. Maybe a bit tough to distinguish lube fouling from powder fouling but the texture should be different.
Anyway kick the pressure up to the point I tried to describe where black bore begins to change to show some color and run the same patch test. See what you find.
If you do someday come up with a lube that will work equally well at all temperature, humidity, pressure, barrel lengths, in revolver or rifle, with all boolit designs, and alloys and rifling types and twists it will be a miracle from God and not the work of mens hands.
In the end a one size fits all is usually a comprimise of all atributes at least in my experiance. I much prefer having a battery to choose from so as to be able to make a better fit to a specific situation but that only me.
The idea of what your asking for is interesting and amusing but I believe with so many variables the outcome will be disapointing. Not to say that no good will come of it because that has already happened.

[Bullshop]

Eutectic
Last night I was thinking a bit about boolit design as well. Remembering many old BP designs that incorperated what was called a scrapeing band in conjunction with a groove for fouling to collect in.
I had to wounder if the same idea might have some application here. My idea was to use a boolit design that has a fairely long gas check shank that normally would leave enough room in front of the gas check to make what amounts to a lube groove on the GC shank.
This is a pretty common design now. Anyway the idea is to leave the lube out of this area to allow residual lube in the barrel to collect there.
There would certanly be complications as this is the area that is most effected by pressure but an easy idea to try. This may help eleviate lube build up problems in the barrel at lower pressure and then for higher or optimal pressure the groove could be filled. Easy to do using a Star sizer and lends itself to the one size fits all lube idea.

[Wayne Smith]

Let me throw another cat in the pile here. Ya'all my decide to ignore it, and that's understandable given the differences involved. It would be nice, tho, if an ultimate lube would:

Be compatible with Black Powder use.

One would need only a single lube sizer!

[runfiverun]

holy hannah throwing b/p residue in the mix would shift everything else the other direction.
the powder residue in b/p is the main reason why smokeless lubes don't work in it.
you aren't fighting the same thing.
you are trying to leave as much lube behind as possible in one situation and just enough behind in the next to not over affect the bores condition..

i could throw in some more variables just by using unique, sr-4759 or by using a stick powder.
but you have to use an appropriate powder that will burn clean enough to not leave a bunch of gunk behind.

i still think if we can just figure out the viscosity over temp issue that would be enough of a head start to make it work.
not perfectly in every situation but in enough that a next step could be finally taken.

[geargnasher]

Sorry, Wayne, that's going to be a no-can-do I believe, at least for serious, long-range BP shooting. Most of the ingredients we've been playing with tend to make asphalt with BP residue. HOWEVER, there are a couple of formulas I've messed with that might be worth trying at least to see what happens. I'll keep you in mind as our work with Extreme Lube progresses.

I'm adding your idea to the list anyway so it doesn't get lost in space....

Gear

[Eutectic]

I would like a lube that can be used in lots of grooves or only one with similar results. Messing with each bullet to see how many grooves to fill. I may as well use multiple lubes if I am gonna do that.

I wanted to bring btroj's above comment to the top for another look. I too, would like to see lube amount/location having no influence on performance.

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

I covered that in #5, but will add the specifics about number of grooves mattering not.

Gear

[Any Cal.]

It seems like most of the qualities won't matter to most shooters, but everyone will use one or two of them. It seems like two or three well documented lubes that overlapped in performance could satisfy everyone. Say an all pressure high temp, an all pressure low temp, and a moderate pressure, moderate temp that didn't fail badly at extremes. If the temp range was eighty degrees, it could easily work for most seasons for most shooters.

[Bigslug]

Your #8 requirement of consistent fouling is in line with what I'd like, though my preferences would be somewhat different.

I am far more concerned with the FIRST SHOT from a clean bore landing within a five shot group than I am about the 500th shot striking the same place. I was raised in the "my daddy would whup my butt" school of firearms maintenance, and I simply don't put guns away dirty - I don't care what the Olympic smallbore shooters say of their .22's. What constitutes a "clean" barrel would depend greatly on the characteristics of the ammo. I am NOT a guy who insists that sparkling white cleaning patches emerge from the bore, but the bulk of the residue GOES when I get home from the range - sometimes before I leave the range. My ideal ammo would need only a couple passes from a lightly Break-Freed Bore Snake to get to this "light grey patch" state, and afterwards would group as if nothing had changed.

Temperature insensitivity is also a big one for me. I have enough stuff to catalog without having to worry about what MONTH I loaded a batch of ammo to be shot in.

Velocity indifference - also high on my list. I would prefer to change only the lube sizer die when going from .38S&W to .30-06. If I've got to cycle out lubes each time I change calibers, I would start thinking that casting is a false economy and go all-jacketed, all-the-time.

Along those same lines, functionality across different boolit designs is a biggie. Much ado has been made of Keith's original square lube grooves versus the Lyman size reduction. The ideal lube WOULDN'T CARE if the boolit is packing lube by the bucket or the eyedropper.

I like the idea of indifference to bore surface. There are a lot of military relics with UUUUUGLY bores out there. I personally tend to avoid them, but it IS a valid concern for many.

What I think I most want is for a lube to be FORGIVING. As you say, a lube probably won't make up for poor fit, inappropriate hardness, and bad loading technique, but to the degree that it CAN, it SHOULD. We on this forum are typically geeky enough to enjoy the quest to solve a problem, but we need to be thinking of the END GAME for those that aren't - - which is to load a ton of reliable ammo and shoot it without a lot of profanity. What we want is a lube that renders the lube section of the forum unnecessary. Basically, we want a copper jacket in a lube stick, that's enough of a problem-solver for mass-market, discount-boolit casters to use it as their lube of choice.

The caveat to that last paragraph - if you CAN make a miracle lube that is black-powder compatible, you will truly be the hero of the age - HOWEVER, I don't think this should be made a primary focus of the quest. The casting community at large understands these issues and is already working separate processes for black and smokeless. I think that the characteristics of the perfect smokeless lube need to be ironed out first. Only when those have been established should we begin looking to attain them while reducing the list of possible ingredients to those that are BP-friendly.

[runfiverun]

time to visit the zddp,and the other metal particles yet??
laugh at my moly will ya...[it's not the powdered stuff]
anyone got any sources for powdered metals.

[geargnasher]

One thing that is going to be tough to get around is those who insist on cleaning their bores. Many lubes, Felix lube is one, can handle a patch just lightly dampened with Ed's Red immediately followed by one dry patch without mucking up the seasoning, but if you use a bore snake damp with that Break Free stuff, I don't think anyone's formula can help you with your first shot! A person has to be realistic about what they do to their barrels if they want them to shoot cold.

One thing I've done a lot of, and I think Run has too, is pre-conditioning a deep-cleaned barrel with either the lube that will be used on the boolits, or a special ointment made from the lubricating components of the lube recipe. A good example is pre-conditioning with Bullplate when using Speed Green for lube, or a wipe with a greased patch and then dry patch when using lithi-bee. If you sort out this process, determine what to put in the bore, and how much to leave in there before shooting, you can fill it with Cosmoline if you want to for storage and still get the first shot in the group after wiping out and pre-treating the bore.

This Pre-Treat is always in the back of my mind for those of you who insist on cleaning to bare metal after each shooting session, or those that live in climates where it's just not realistic to leave a bore uncleaned and unoiled for any length of time.

Gear

[btroj]

That pretreat idea is exactly why I have been cleaning my 375 with ATF alone when using BensRed. I figure I might as well leave a light film of a lube ingredient if I have to leave anything.

I may need to test some this winter on cold tarts. Are they the same from a clean barrel as from one ouled with the same lube? In other words, is it the lube in the bore that is an issue or the lube on the bullet? Or both?

[runfiverun]

clean?
i clean nothing.
i might push an atf soaked patch down a bbl once in a while.
but clean a protected bore to take the protection out then to put something else in only to shoot over it. ummmm no.
heck i don't even clean leading out,i'll shoot it out with a good cast load.
but i ain't scrubbing it out.

a copper fouled bbl i'll clean out, lightly oil and foul before use.
but it better be affecting accuracy.

[btroj]

Run, I don't clean very often at all. I clean some of my guns once a year or so. A dry patch tells me if leading is present. Most of the time I run a wet patch or two then dry. Just enough to clear out carbon and such and let me see the bore.

I do clean the action on my lever guns before hunting season and relube. I want to be sure they run smooth under any condition.

And congrats to me on post 5000. I hope I said something intelligent at least once......

[geargnasher]

Yeah, congrats Brad!

You set me straight on the stearic acid vs. triglyceride thing the other day, that was once, thanks BTW, and thanks for hanging in there with us on the Quest.

I must say, though, you have demonstrated a special talent when it comes to freaking out your computer/tablet's auto-correct program, some of the stuff it spits out is a trip! :drinks:

Gear

[DRNurse1]

Congratulations BTROJ, 5000 is an accomplishment and I have found many of them (your posts) helpful.

So, we need a particular combination of components to meet each of the OP parameters an it will be difference in each gun based on load and pressure, and it still may leave accuracy sub par. This is getting complicated for the neophyte here. How can this discussion and the results be clarified / simplified for us?

[runfiverun]

not so.
many of the expectations actually overlap.
bore condition is bore condition the trick for the cold bbl is what happens to what you left behind between then and when you shoot it now.
pushing a damp patch through the bbl before use just reconditions the bbl and repairs the old lube.

same thing for hot only the bore condittion is allready repaired now it's up to the lube on the boolit to do the job.
same ingredients either way.
the trick is how to lay down a coating in the bbl unaffected in a reasonable amount of time,that also does the job a lube needs to do.
no matter what we do lube is going to leave something behind [copper lube wrapped all the way around the lead leaves it too]
one of the things gear and i have been discussing lately is bore fouling.
is it acceptable to have the first shot in the group and accuracy but have to clean the bbl [just like using flgc's] every 200 or so rounds?
there is gonna be some give and take on one end or the other, we may fix the first shot and long string issues only to have to increase cleaning and re fouling time.

[geargnasher]

The Extreme Lube thread is a continuing discussion of the "how", this thread I intended to be a clarification of the "what", since several of us in very different climates are working together on this. The project was getting to the point that we needed a consensus on exactly what properties we all needed/wanted in the lube, and more importantly to the project, what testing standards we can all use to put our various lubes through their paces.

Basically this is a "let's all get on the same page" thread, and a call to those not following our work for any particular qualities we may have missed in our collective work.

As an example, I want to test formula X. First test is the feel/consistency test, will it stay in a groove, will it work with the equipment. Will it store? Melt point needs to be high for me, I'll melt it and see. If it is liquid at 150F I'm done with it. If it is rock-hard and crumbly when frozen to 0F, I probably won't use it. Next I lube some boolits and shoot it in my .45 Colt, .38 Special, and .45 Auto and observe accuracy, fouling, leading, action fouling, smoke, lube star, etc. I get the .45 Auto really hot with a bunch of rapid-fire to see how the lube stands it. If it looks good, I switch to rifle, shooting for groups, testing for cold-starts, dirty barrel, clean barrel, pre-lubed barrel, checking for cold flyers, purge flyers, etc. compared to a baseline established by a known-good lube taylored to the test temperature range. If it shoots at least as well as the control lube, and can stand the highest velocities I can push it, then the long-term starts, testing in temperature extremes, testing for corrosion, doing muzzle purge tests, seeing if it dries out, sweats, or separates over time. I compare with some similar testing done by folks in warmer/colder climates, that way more can be determined at one time than waiting six months for the weather to change. That's the idea, anyway. I think we've actually made quite a lot of progress toward this, and some promising new lubes are emerging, stay tuned......

Gear

[44man]

Very interesting thread, been watching.
My requirement is accuracy first no matter the time of year. True I now work mostly with revolvers but have gone to 55,000 psi with a few.
Lube can affect accuracy a great deal without leading a bore at all, in fact leading is my least concern. To just work to that end is a detriment.
To find anything that will stay the same with your loads at 110* in the sun to -40* is a task I don't want. Steel gets brittle at -40.
You melt ingredients to make lubes then expect it to NOT melt in summer heat! Then you do not want it to get hard in the cold.
Sounds like turning lead to gold to me! :veryconfu
The best is just a balance somewhere between to give decent accuracy as conditions change. Lube will only work best at ONE spot.
Even the boolit alloy hardness changes as temps change and so does your barrel dimensions.

[Eutectic]

Very interesting thread, been watching.

Sounds like turning lead to gold to me! :veryconfu


Yep..... That's what's at work over on the "Extreme" thread..... ALCHEMISTS!

Eutectic

[DRNurse1]

Yep..... That's what's at work over on the "Extreme" thread..... ALCHEMISTS!

Eutectic

Only if it works.....It will work, right?

[44man]

Bucky balls, we need Bucky balls! [smilie=l:
I like to watch gear because he knows stuff but I bet if he finds something it will cost a million for an ounce! :holysheep
Only found 1 billion light years the other side of the sun, leaking from an alien spaceship!
I go over every oil and wax ever used for a lube and can't see where any combination will alter anything between soft, hard, sticky or slippery to not change with heat or cold.
Alter boolit friction in the bore, not good.

[Bigslug]

Pre-treating the bore with lube (or one of the key lube ingredients) after cleaning is a concept I could roll with. Basically no different than waxing a car after washing it.

This would be a workable concept for folks like me who feel the need to clean after each range session, and would also address the needs of folks who are worried about corrosive agents in their ammo. There have been a bunch of foreign primers added to the supply stream in the last few years. Most of them are probably harmless, but who has a barrel they're willing to sacrifice to test the theory?

[geargnasher]

Bucky balls, we need Bucky balls! [smilie=l:
I like to watch gear because he knows stuff but I bet if he finds something it will cost a million for an ounce! :holysheep
Only found 1 billion light years the other side of the sun, leaking from an alien spaceship!
I go over every oil and wax ever used for a lube and can't see where any combination will alter anything between soft, hard, sticky or slippery to not change with heat or cold.
Alter boolit friction in the bore, not good.

A barrel made out of Buckminsterfullerine would be neat.

I think I've figured a way to do the impossible, with the help of a few of these patient and obsessive souls who have been helping with ideas and providing chemicals to play with. Sodium grease, made thick, and made with a combination of Vaseline and microwax instead of just a light oil, with a slight hint of synthetic Lucas oil and maybe a couple drops of polybutene to help it hold together in the heat, has some very nice, wide-temp friction characteristics. It doesn't really melt until about 430F, and although it gets firmer in the freezer, the touch of Synthetic Lucas oil adds the slick that is lost in the cold. It has enough stearate and long-string hydrocarbons, together with the polybutene, to be thick, cushiony, and not too slick in the heat. This stuff seems to have about the same drag from zero to about 180F. Not the same viscosity, but frictional drag between boolit metal and steel. I'm trying it with beeswax now, same base as Eutectic is using, to see how much difference the microwax vs. beeswax makes in the performance.

A chronograph and some wide temperature testing will tell for sure what's going on.

Gear

[runfiverun]

latched onto a zddp additive today with olefin polymers as a secondary.
unfortunatly the test mule i have in mind has no sights on it.
but that isn't gonna be my first consideration here.
starting from scratch with this rifle, scrubbing the bore to steel,and no knowledge of the throat or anything.
i'm just gonna use it as a trigger/ bbl platform,and a chrono.[if i can get the reloading room swapped around into something with some presses mounted again]
simple lube too this and b-wax just soft enough to get through the lubesizer.
we'll see how this zddp stuff does.

[popper]

My 2cents. I think 1 problem is adding ZDDP or Polybutene or whatever is not the only addition. We (you) can only get it as an additive to something else, unless you get a few metric tons or barrels. Felix and other lubes have known ingredients with known (?) characteristics.
I did look into the characteristics of the polybutene. It breaks down with pressure and heat to a non-tacky, non-lube 'stuff'; i.e. works for initial bang and then is kaput? No way to verify this. Another comment I see a lot is that vegetable oils don't work. They take temp and pressure better than mineral oils. Problem with oxidation? Yes, but how long does this take? I shot 30-30 loads left in the garage this Texas summer for > 1 month, through a bbl uncleaned for 1 month. Doesn't kill the powder that I can tell. POI was just HIGH. Yes, a fog comes out the muzzle. Even in 308 AR, the action is easy to clean, minimal blow back. Low viscosity and good VI. It may not be the best but it does work, doesn't shoot right or left like LLA, recluse, peanut butter (which works fine but is messy hand lubing). Quit the fairy tales, there only good for kids.
My addition to the list, although it doesn't fit your method, would be to lose the lubrisizer. I would guess that 50% of those on this forum don't have one and don't intend to get one. NOT meant as a negative statement at all. Respectfully to those doing the testing, you appear to be getting some good results, can this be applied to the rest of us?

[runfiverun]

yes.
some of the ingredients that have been tried have been discarded simply because of availability.
the search has been for off the shelf ingredients from the start.
we have had to go to extremes at times to find out what the property's of the additives were/are.

[geargnasher]

yes.
some of the ingredients that have been tried have been discarded simply because of availability.
the search has been for off the shelf ingredients from the start.
we have had to go to extremes at times to find out what the property's of the additives were/are.

Well said. Covered that one in #11 of the OP.

It is very conclusive when you can take a formula, add one pure, isolated ingredient, and observe the effect. If you add, say, bar and chain oil, who knows what component has any effect? Is it the heavy, bright stock? The tackifier? Polymers? But if you have the individual stuff on hand, you can directly observe what it does. Once we figure out what exactly we need, then off-the-shelf products (many containing two or more desirable components in one product) can be selected for use.

I think we have a good list to go off of, now it's up to each of us to interpret it with our own individual guns and components and come to a consensus. I shot .45 ACP and 7mm-08 today with the Yellow Jacket lube and it worked great, time to take it up a notch.

Gear