lube question

[XWrench3]

i have seen probably upward of 500 different lube recipes over the last 4 or 5 years (man, time flies!). they vary from just a few things, to over 15 different things in the mix. and i am no better, i have made up some pretty complicated concoctions. but one thing i have wondered about for a while, is why we do not just us extreme pressure, hi temp automotive grease? is it just to plain simple?! or do we really need all the other stuff? i mostly shoot smokeless, so i do not worry about softening the b.p. residue.

[cbrick]

I haven't tried using just straight grease but Glen Fyxell's favorite lube is 50/50 by weight Beeswax and Sta-Lube Extreme Pressure Moly-Graf Multi Purpose Lithium Grease. You would be pretty hard pressed to get him to use anything else. Chapter 5 in his book has a pretty good discussion on lubes.

Just a hunch on my part but I would think the bees wax is a base to help keep the grease from blowing out in front of the bullet and to make it flow properly.

I have mixed and experimented with several different lubes containing various greases and by far the worst as far accuracy is concerned is any synthetic grease. They just didn't work, the two things I didn't have with synthetic grease was leading and accuracy. Shame, I had high hopes for the synthetics.

Rick

[felix]

The grease folks tend to make low-friction stuff. We are after the opposite, approaching that of guilding metal if you will. The colloidal particle lubes including moly, graphite and lithium help matters in this direction but the former two will ruin hands, faces, clothes and then furniture. After everyone agrees on a "final" lube, I will deliver a sample to some folks I know in the polymer business. They would use the "DNA" of that lube and use their database(s) to discover and decipher which radicals can be used to make up the "structure" for an emulating synthetic lube. ... felix

[runfiverun]

well right now i'd bet polybutene makes the list of ingredients.
and b-wax :lol:
unless someone knows of a synthetic b-wax.

[Marlin Junky]

well right now i'd bet polybutene makes the list of ingredients.
and b-wax :lol:
unless someone knows of a synthetic b-wax.

Polybutene is practically a generic name for a group of molecules; however, is it likely that Bar & Chain oil gets its tacky attribute from some sort of Polybutene?

MJ

[runfiverun]

it is....

[44man]

The grease folks tend to make low-friction stuff. We are after the opposite, approaching that of guilding metal if you will. The colloidal particle lubes including moly, graphite and lithium help matters in this direction but the former two will ruin hands, faces, clothes and then furniture. After everyone agrees on a "final" lube, I will deliver a sample to some folks I know in the polymer business. They would use the "DNA" of that lube and use their database(s) to discover and decipher which radicals can be used to make up the "structure" for an emulating synthetic lube. ... felix
Slippery has never worked even with a RB muzzle loader. With the RB, the bore must not be super smooth but in modern barrels we must change the boolit and lube, either works.
I have always said to make cast act like a jacketed.
To do better then Felix lube is a hard act to follow.
I find it funny that molecules can be changed and even a piece of brass taken to the scrap yard can have the content measured for the exact alloy content. So can about anything be measured.
But I can't melt lead or melt an old loading press down and make gold.
Making the perfect lube needs a witches cauldron or Merlin to do it. :bigsmyl2:
It is like Alox that many love. Give me boolits with the junk on it and I will wash it off or melt them down. With just that difference in opinion, how can you please every condition? It is easier to make diamonds.

[Marlin Junky]

it is....

So has anyone made grease from Bar&Chain oil? I though I'd check Friday to see if the local yard equipment supply store had some Stihl Bar & Chain oil in stock.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

...But I can't melt lead or melt an old loading press down and make gold.

That would require altering the atomic structure of atoms which is a bit more difficult than allowing compatible molecules to "naturally" react.

MJ

[runfiverun]

M.J.
i could make chain oil from scratch and then lith/aluminum stearate it but i just don't see the need.
you have lucas red and tacky and other oil additives like lucas/stp etc. that you could duplicate it with.
[you'd be making bens red the hard way].
by using sodium stearate instead of lithium stearate you might have some benefits though.
i'd say they would be at the hot end of the temp spectrum.

if you wanna make grease. follow the directions ian gave you and be watchfull of the temps.
you will need to be in the 500+ range to get the gelling affect.
you'll probably end up with a lube fairly similar to the L and E purples i sent you when your done.
it should be a bit stickier and handle the heat better though [i'm guessing these are your goals]

[geargnasher]

Unless you're trying to make sodium grease, you're better off with the Lucas Red/tacky grease, it has all the goodies you need plus some. The only issue is that I don't know how to make lithi-bee lubes into a "universal" formula, although I haven't tested Ben's Red with the polybutene it contains at both temp extremes. It's a good lube, and might turn out to be better than we think.

Gear

[runfiverun]

a little sodium stearating of it could make it fall more in line with the E- lubes goals better.

[geargnasher]

Reminds me of the Tri-Stearate concept from a few months back......no work-softening of the grease that way.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

I've never experimented with Lucas Red & Tacky. How the heck does one get it to blend it with beeswax?... it has a drop point over 500F! It's pretty expensive too.

MJ

[geargnasher]

"Blend" is the operative word. It must be dissolved into the beeswax gradually at sane temperatures, well below the drop point of the grease. Lamar's method of hand mixer and several cool/reheat cycles does it. I think Ben just strains the lumps through a tee-shirt.

Gear

[btroj]

Having made Bens Red in the past year I can say that time and sane heat levels are the key. Keep it hot, keep storing, and give it a half hour to an hour. I did NOT try to melt the grease first or anything like that, I just dumped it all together, heated it to a sane non smoking level, and stirred away. Keep it going long enough and there are few lumps left.

[Marlin Junky]

How about if Red n Tacky is thinned with Vaseline first?

This is how I prepare the General Purpose (350F drop point) grease before adding to beeswax. I actually lower the 350F drop point to about 230F with Vaseline and then add it to beeswax.

MJ

P.S. OK, I just discovered that Red n Tacky is the main ingredient (after beeswax) in Ben's Red... sorry for the ignorance but here's another question:

While brewing the Red Lube, the volatile components in JPW are cooked off, so why not thin the Red n Tacky with mineral spirits to ease the blending with beeswax? Would that ruin the Tacky? 'Nuther question: what makes Lucas Red n Tacky any better than the knock-off high pressure/high temperature red lithium greases AKA Wally-World's "SuperTech" (or whatever the heck they call it).

[geargnasher]

Polybutene.

Gear

[runfiverun]

most all those greases and additives have pretty much the same bases and additives.
it's like gasoline it all comes from the same pipeline they just throw in some other stuff before delivering it to the different stations.
it's just that the poly butenes [stickifier] and poly esters [atf] seem to be better for our purposes than the polyalpha's [grease bases] are.
there might be better ones like a poly styrene or possibly a poly glycol [if the temperatures, and the solids can be controlled]
the "j"-lube i was working with earlier was/is a poly glycol
the 3am smoking mess was when i was trying to combine the poly glycol and some poly butene and some ethylene glycol.
i just got the poly glycol solids too hot..
i still have hope for the poly glycol lube [even after the lith stearate super sticky fiasco] slapping forehead.
but as a stand alone lube it has continued to shoot well.

[Marlin Junky]

OK, thanks guys. That answers my question regarding the preference for Lucas Red n Tacky, but what about thinning it with mineral spirits before cooking so it combines with the beeswax easier?

Thanks again,
MJ

[btroj]

I can why you would want to thin it to make it mix with the beeswax easier but I don't think it is needed. Heat the stuff to the melt point of beeswax and stir, stir, stir. Takes time but no longer than it would to evaporate off a bunch of solvent. My BR looked a bit like tomato juice when I was done. Almost had a clotted look to it. A quick strain thru cheese cloth and it was clear. Quick and simple to do

[Marlin Junky]

What is the melt point of Ben's Red?

MJ

[softpoint]

I've tried a number of lubes over the years. Most recently I made a small batch of Ben's Red. It appears to be a pretty good, simple to make, lube. I used red Mystic JT6 high temp grease instead of the Lucas. I believe it is the same. I have made lube with Moly grease and beeswax that was pretty good, too. One of my complaints of these is that they stink. And stink some more if you melt in microwave to fill your sizers. Both Darr's and Emmert's lube fail the heat test here in the summer.Liquid Alox and the JPW-alox are good, I just don't care too much for tumble lube. So, I am back to cooking Felix lube in fairly large batches until something better comes along. It just works at any temperature here, and smells good enough to put on biscuits. It takes a couple more ingredients than some of the others, but I still like it.

[softpoint]

What is the melt point of Ben's Red?

MJ

The batch I made never got any thinner than thick molasses. I used Mystic High Temp red grease instead of Lucas, and it doesn't melt at all until you blend the beeswax into it, it just gets a little softer.

[runfiverun]

when i made my first batch of the lith stearated grease i added some mineral spirits to the pan it stirred in the grease rather easily i added another spoonfull on the side and used it's smoke point as a temp indicator.
the m/s was smoking off before the greases melted m/s starts smoking about 325-f ish i had to get the stearate over 450 to melt and blend into the grease properly so i took the mag-1 wheel bearing grease to it's melt point which showed a 550-f drop point then added the stearate to gel the melted greases.

[Marlin Junky]

So, Ben's Red melts at a very high temperature but at the same time, its ingredients combine into a new, stabile compound at temperatures that will not scorch or even discolor beeswax (< 200F)? In addition, it is soft enough to flow through a Lyman 450 in the middle of winter and shoot to 1MOA in all ambient temperatures that I may want to endure? AND, I don't need to worry about my bore corroding?

If so, I'm sold!

MJ

[btroj]

Mine is a bit softer than I like. No heat required to flow in a Lyman sizer at 65 degrees. A bit soft, quite sticky, and it stays in the grooves in storage.

I have no idea what the melt temp is, I haven't measured it.

I have had no signs of barrel or brass corrosion with it. I have taken it to over 2K fps with no signs of leading.

I have by no means fully wrung is stuff out. Will see how it handles cold this winter.

How much do I trust it? It isin the bullets I will be usi for deer season.

[runfiverun]

take the grease off the heat and start adding the b-wax while stirring gently with a fork,the mix will cool down pretty quickly.
[be careful to not splash the melted grease on yourself it will blister instantly]
pre-melt the b-wax and pour it in the cooling mixture and hit it with the blender and run it till things start firming up.
then pour it out to cool.
that's how i deal with the gelling type lubes.

once the lube is made re-melting it is easy, you can then modify it.
follow bens directions first.

[Marlin Junky]

take the grease off the heat and start adding the b-wax while stirring gently with a fork,the mix will cool down pretty quickly.
[be careful to not splash the melted grease on yourself it will blister instantly]
pre-melt the b-wax and pour it in the cooling mixture and hit it with the blender and run it till things start firming up.
then pour it out to cool.
that's how i deal with the gelling type lubes.

once the lube is made re-melting it is easy, you can then modify it.
follow bens directions first.

Lamar,

So I'm tossing all the ingredients sans the beeswax into a sauce pan and heating it to what temperature?... It's melting point? BTW, I have no blender that I can afford to ruin with this stuff.

MJ

[runfiverun]

look at bens sticky.
the way i'd do it and the way he does is slightly different.
but yeah melt down the grease pull it from the heat add everything else then add the melted b-wax.
i got a hand blender and a pair of mis matched beaters at the second hand store for about 5-6 dollars total.
i grab a new set of beaters frequently when i'm there to keep on hand for different lube mixes.

the hand mixer is invaluable to make lube with, you can incorporate grease in a softened b-wax too.
then do a full melt and mix.
this is how i mix in my moly"
if i melt the wax fully the moly falls through the mix to the bottom of the pot.
so i have to just get the wax soft enough to run the blender through it then add the moly stick.

[Marlin Junky]

the way i'd do it and the way he does is slightly different.

You still incorporate the ATF and STP, right?

MJ

[runfiverun]

yes you need the poly's one for the tacky and one for the glide.
same as i use in the simple green lube.
b-wax- 2 stroke [poly-butene] atf [polyolester] and the vaseline.

bens has more polybutene from the tacky in the grease and the added stp plus the lith stearates too.

[Marlin Junky]

yes you need the poly's one for the tacky and one for the glide.
same as i use in the simple green lube.
b-wax- 2 stroke [poly-butene] atf [polyolester] and the vaseline.

bens has more polybutene from the tacky in the grease and the added stp plus the lith stearates too.

Thanks Lamar. Ben's Red sounds good. I'll be experimenting with it this Fall/Winter. I suppose in the summer heat though, one might use a bit less ATF and/or STP?

MJ

[geargnasher]

Don't worry about things that haven't proven to be a problem yet.

Gear

[btroj]

Well said Gear. Don't invite ruble or fix things that aren't broken.

Ben lives in a hot enough environ that I bet he would have seen problem with heat if they existed.

[geargnasher]

Like Bass Ackwards used to say, "It only matters if it does".

Gear

[btroj]

Bass had a way with words. I miss that.