getting there - slowly slowly

[sthwestvictoria]

I have been casting since the start of the year but not having much success. I have two 30-30, Marlin 336 and Win94 pre-64.
The win 94 is a shooter however I have been struggling with the Marlin to get groups - factory jacketed or cast.

Tonight however a glimmer of hope in the distance - a group appeared with the Lee TL314-90-SWC, TL with LLA/mineral spirits, sized to .311

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_20993508f9d587622e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7217)

This is loaded over trailboss. The 7grains of Trailboss has pulled together a group for me just over 1 inch. Caveat - only 25 metres distance but with aperture sight (williams and the factory brass bead).

This is a real confidence builder that I needed - Fugowii has been talking about his frustrations:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=168514&highlight=fugowii

And I have been feeling the same way. This small group is a real shot in the arm for me to get going.

[bruce drake]

Most folks have difficulties with Marlins and cast boolits if the barrel has the Marlin Micro-groove rifling. Do a quick search on Micro-grooves on this site and you'll see some of the tips of other Marlin owners have done to get their rifles to shoot well with the M-Grooves.

Me, I wussed out and stuck to my Winchesters (30-30 and 32Spl) as they are a lot easier to get to shoot well with cast.

Bruce

[Linstrum]

I have been casting since the start of the year but not having much success. I have two 30-30, Marlin 336 and Win94 pre-64.
The win 94 is a shooter however I have been struggling with the Marlin to get groups - factory jacketed or cast.

Tonight however a glimmer of hope in the distance - a group appeared with the Lee TL314-90-SWC, TL with LLA/mineral spirits, sized to .311

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_20993508f9d587622e.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7217)

This is loaded over trailboss. The 7grains of Trailboss has pulled together a group for me just over 1 inch. Caveat - only 25 metres distance but with aperture sight (williams and the factory brass bead).

This is a real confidence builder that I needed - Fugowii has been talking about his frustrations:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=168514&highlight=fugowii

And I have been feeling the same way. This small group is a real shot in the arm for me to get going.

Congrats on getting a small group! You are absolutely right about that being a shot in the arm that will encourage you to keep heading toward perfection (I don't know anyone who has ACTUALLY ever gotten to "perfection", but it is a worthy goal).

Bruce Drake has a lot of experience and I agree with him that you should use the search function here to do some research. The search tab is up close to the top of the page in the grey strip just to the right of the bright red word "Donate" where it says:

User CP All Albums FAQ Image Hosting Members List Calendar Donate HomePage Today Search Quick Links Chat Room Log Out

There is a lot of information on Marlin's Microgroove barrels and how to get around the problems associated with that type of rifling. I have a friend who has a Marlin and he gets very acceptable accuracy with Microgroove rifling.

I don't know you at all, so I don't know what your knowledge base is on the subject of reloading for cast, so please keep in mind that I am not deliberately talking down to you or being sarcastic.

Unless things work out be sheer coincidence, to get optimum performance you normally can't just cast a boolit using any old lead alloy, shove it in front of some powder in a brass case, and pull the trigger. The first thing you need to do is slug the bores of all your guns to find out what diameter boolit each one needs. For example, I have two m96 Swedish Mausers that require two different boolit sizes; one rifle needs 0.267" boolits and the other 0.269". In general, most hand guns and rifles require a cast projectile that is 0.002" greater in diameter than the barrel diameter as measured across the rifling grooves. Quite often the groove diameter of a barrel is different for each pair of rifling grooves, so choose the greatest diameter. I know some barrels use five grooves, and that takes a special technique to measure. Most British SMLE .303 rifles are that way. There are plenty of posts here that detail slugging your bores, and it is not difficult with the right tools and materials. You will need a very accurate machinist's micrometer or machinist's digital/dial caliper, though.

One word of caution, not every rifle is going to be a world class shooter, there are just some that don't do very well, and I own PLENTY of that kind! With that said, it does NOT mean that your rifle is a bad shooter, it can take a little work to discover what will make your particular rifle shoot at its best. Things like boolit alloy, boolit diameter, boolit design, powder type, powder load, lubrication, and a few other things I can't think of at the moment. For example, I own a French MAS 36 7.5x54 bolt gun that is one of my most accurate shooters. But it is only accurate within a very narrow range of cartridge components. Along that line, it is very difficult to get good accuracy from the most accurate gun in existence if you try to get too high performance from it. It is possible to get 823 meters per second (2700 feet per second) using cast in a .30-06 rifle and still have very good accuracy, but you have to jump through hoops to do that by using the right boolit alloy, gas check, lubricant, powder type and charge, on down to the right rifle, etc. But once you get what you want, you can shoot to your heart's content with good results as long as you keep your gun in working order and you do YOUR part in pointing the gun in the right direction. Quite a few of us have been reloading cast boolits for a real long time, I've been at it since 1964 and one guy here has been at it since 1941, but that doesn't necessarily make us experts, just old. BUT hopefully after 48 years I should know enough to keep out of trouble! It takes a bit of time to get a feel for using cast boolits, but it is not rocket science, just cast boolits science. Us humans have been casting and shooting boolits since the year 1249, so hopefully 763 years is long enough to know how it is done!

Good Luck!

rl 1,146

[Hurricane]

Having good results with the .314 boolit sized to .311 is a hint that you are on the right track. I think a rifle bullet may shoot better than a pistol bullet in your 30-30. If you have rifle molds try boolits between 150 and 180 grains. Measure the diameter of the as cast boolits and make up some dummy cartridges (no primer or powder) and see if the as cast boolits will load and extract from your Marlin. If they go in and out without problems then try them with a good your Trail Boss and with 10 grains of Unique powder. Do not size smaller than .311. Somewhere between .311 and .314 is the size you are looking for and you will know it when your groups show good results. If you need to buy a rifle bullet mold, something in the neighborhood of 170 grains is always a good place to strart. Lee, Lyman, and all the other mold makers except RCBS make 30 caliber molds at 170 or 173 grains. If you like RCBS, there 30-180-FN is good and drops from the mold at 193 grains for me. I am getting good results from Lyman 311291, Lyman 311041, and RCBS 30-180-FN. A lot of people on this forum say the Lee C-309-170F is very good also. These molds all drop from the mold at about 311 no matter what it says on the box. If that does not work you may have to try a bullet made for the British .303 (you will get 312 - 314 size out of the mold) As long as the cartridge loads and extract without trouble the bullet is not too big. Good luck.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Marlins = Fat Boolits ! Have most of the available calibers and all the Micro grooves shoot best with the fattest boolit that will chamber. I no longer shoot 30-30. Some are 38's and my last 30-30 is going to get reamed and grooved to .412 as did it's cousin.
Ranch Dog Molds are designed to fill those fat throats and get a good grip on the thin rifling. RD has a mold designed just for Marlin 30-30's that is suppossed to be a winner. So far everyone of his designs I tried in a Marlin worked nicely with no fuss. RD's site has plans for Marlin chambers and it is real evident Marlins need fat nosed, large diameter boolits or your going to have skid problems and blowby on ignition.
Mike in ILL

[starmac]

According to ranch dogs sight, he is going out of business, and has sold out of 30/30 molds and many others too.
Iirc lee is going to start selling ranch dog molds, but it is going to be a while.

[sthwestvictoria]

Thanks Bruce, Linstrum, Hurricane, MIssionary and Starmac for the advice, all very useful.

I knew from reading here and in Glen Fryexlls ebook that the fatter the better with MG. I did try a .309 sized boolit and wish I had a picture as it was a perfect impression of a side-ways boolit in the paper!

I started with Trailboss as I knew i couldn't double charge however it is so bulky you run out of case volume quickly and so even at full case loads (11 grains in the 30-30 case) you can't get a lot of energy behind the boolit.

So if I do want the boolits to go a bit faster than the low 1200 fps range I will need to look at a more energetic powder - one of the ADI products like AS30n (clays), AP70N (universal) or AR205 (H4227). The only other powder I currently have on hand is ADI's 2208 (varget) which at minimum loadings will be too fast for boolits (ADI handbook gives starting load 31grain 2208 for 2170fps with 150grain). They do suggest 2205 for cast, starting at 15grains for 1600fps so that could be something to try.

I do have the .30 150grain FN from Lee and have some rough groups with it, nothing as good as with the TL314-90-SWC. This is however because I do not have any gas checks yet.

Encouragingly there has not been any leading mainly due to the low velocities that Trailboss delivers, even with full cases. Lubes tried have been LLA/mineral spirits and pan lubing with 47.5% petroleum jelly, 47.5% beeswax and 5%lanolin. This melts well, and stuck in the grooves of the Lee 150g FN well.

So lots more things to keep trying: Try more charge variation with the TL314-90-SWC. Try gas checks with the 150grn FN and consider a more energetic powder behind these heavier boolits.

It would be boring if everything worked! The best bit is changing one thing at a time and seeing what the effect is to narrow down on that pet load!

[geargnasher]

Try a boolit in the 170-grain range with a FAT NOSE, use a powder somewhere between 4227 and Varget, go for about 1800fps, and relieve any forearm or barrel band stress. The biggest issue with my Marlins, next to getting a non-bore-riding boolit with a full-diameter nose, was bind and stress with all the junk hanging off of the barrel. Mic McPherson is the Marlin guru who sells a book that explains the fixes. You can get some hints on-line from his website where he gives an overview of accurizing and tuning.

BTW both of mine shoot half-inch groups at 100 yards at right at 2K fps with a 4X scope, but it took a little work to the gun and some careful brass prep, together with some really careful fitting of boolit and brass.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the 311 diameter of the little boolit should be your first indicator of what it wants...
i use 379 and water dropped ww's in my 375 bbl diameter marlin....

[williamwaco]

I have had good luck with the Marlin 336 using .311 311041

[sthwestvictoria]

the 311 diameter of the little boolit should be your first indicator of what it wants...
i use 379 and water dropped ww's in my 375 bbl diameter marlin....

The Marlin MG barrel slugs at .309 while my Win 94 slugs at .308, The resistance for slugging seems equal all the way through the MG barrel, the crown is still in good shape.

So maybe saving up for fatter nose mold, something like the 311041 from Lyman.

[Nobade]

On all my MG Marlins, the #311041 nose is too small and accuracy is poor. But the SAECO 305 is almost the exact same design with a .314" body and .303" nose. They say it's for the 303 Brit, but it works beautifully in Marlins. That bigger nose lets it align with the bore and shoot like it it supposed to.

A good check is to take a boolit you want to use and stick the nose into the muzzle. If it won't go and engraves a bit it'll likely work. If it falls in and rattles it's not going to shoot very well.

The groove size isn't much of an issue, it's the big bore sizes on Marlins. Typically .303" with very shallow rifling. That nose has to be big enough to keep the boolit aligned.

[runfiverun]

yessir the mg's are a different breed the 309 groove diameter is half the equasion.
the nose gliding in the lands is gonna be a minimum, a little bit of engraving when chambered is better.
i'd guess at a 311 body and a nose close to 303 or 304 would be about right.

[popper]

Personally, I'd wait for the GCs and see how that works with the 150FN. Varget may work for you, it's not as slow as the LeverE I'm using. The 041 worked OK in my MG at plinker loads, the RD 165 works for stout loads, both GC'd. You said the marlin didn't like jacketed or cast, what is the jacketed load and bullet? Mine works fine with core-loc, FN or FTX. Possibly there is a problem other than the cast boolit.

[pls1911]

Poopy... Marlin MG barrels shoot properly cast and sized gas checked bullets as well as any Jacketed bullet.

Cast the right bullet:
Ranch Dog 165 or NOE equivalent, Saeco#316, preferred, but RCBS and lyman FNGC are fine.
Heat treat your bullet any WW mix will do, I use 50/50 WW and roofing lead.
Size .312.
Gas Check.

I size all .30 cals .312, because of the variation in the Marlin barrel dimensions over the years, and I have nearly every year from 1893.... Some years would have 309 bullet wandering down the barrel... .312 shoots well in all of 'em deep or microgroove, shallow, thin, 4 groove mil spec, 6 groove, 12 or more or whatever...

[Wolfer]

Just a heads up. I have a fairly new 311041 that drops at 309. Works great in my gun which slugs at .308
This mold probaly won't work in yours.

[TXGunNut]

You have two rifles that have one thing in common, a 30-30 chamber. I have a 336 and 94 as well and intend to treat them as different rifles when I get around to casting for them in earnest. The Winchester is a short range brush-busting Trapper with aperture sights and the Marlin is a medium range stand or still-hunting rifle. If I get one cast boolit load to work for both I'll feel truly blessed, just don't think I'll be that lucky. If you have a CB load that works in your 94, great! If it doesn't work in your 336, you have work to do. When you find a load that works in your 336 maybe [smilie=w: it will work in your 94. If not, be thankful 30-30 cases and MTM boxes are cheap and plentiful.

[WyrTwister]

I have a Marlin and a Win 94 AE , both in .30-30 .

With iron sights & my eyes & Federal blue box 170 grain Walley World factory ammo , they both will probably do around 2" .

After accumulating some empty brass , I have been slowly experimenting with cast bullets . Still a work in progress .

God bless
Wyr

[popper]

Try seating longer - not getting into the throat of the MG yet. I had the same results with the 100 gr. I tried the 041 and got similar results, a group with lots of fliers. I have ~200 RD .311, checked and lubed if you'll pay the freight.

[gundownunder]

You said that you get bad results with both factory jacketed and cast. Do you mean factory jacketed ammunition, or handloads with factory jacketed bullets?
If the rifle wont shoot accurately with something like Winchester factory ammunition then something is wrong with the rifle.
Check that all is right, no loose sights etc. Try a box of factory ammo and see if that groups, if it does you will need to look at your reloading methods. Have you tried Hawksbury or Westcasting projectiles, somebody at your local SSAA range is bound to have a handful for you to try.

[WyrTwister]

My Marlin .30-30 has a longer chamber and / or throat , than my Winny .30-30 . Bullets seated to the Max OAL for the Marlin will mot allow the lever to close on the Winny .

So , I load for the Winny & they also work for the Marlin .

God bless
Wyr

[popper]

Wyr mine is the opposite. RD311165 for winny have to be seated deeper to fit the 336. The RD for marlin work great.

[WyrTwister]

I may have said it backward . I seat the cast bullets deeper for the Winny than the Marlin .

God bless
Wyr



Wyr mine is the opposite. RD311165 for winny have to be seated deeper to fit the 336. The RD for marlin work great.