35 Whelen powder

[Blammer]

Well, I'm back at my 35 whelen, you know how these things come in cycles.

I just cast up a bunch of RCBS 35-200 boolits.

My goal is to be able to thump a deer out to 200yds with this. Should be easy enough. :)

I perused my 35 whelen load notes from last time and found I had not done much with this projectile.

54gr of IMR4895 resulted in HORRIBLE accuracy.
46-52gr of IMR3031 faired no better.
52-57gr of Varget was bad also.

Probably way too fast velocity estimates was around 2400fps or so.

I looked at my books and the IMR website for powder suggestions and charge wts on where to start.

I used QL to figure a charge wt and velocity of around 1900 fps for all of the below powders.

These are the powders I'm considering.

Varget 40-44gr get 1800-2000 fps
Lilgun 27-32gr get 1800-2100fps
H4198 32-34gr 1900-2000 fps
IMR4895 40-44gr 1900-2050fps
H380 44-48gr 1850-2050 fps

My main concern at this point is "too little" powder in the case resulting in bad things happening.

I will not use a filler.

I also see it as using a faster powder vs a slower powder in the above choices. Faster being Lilgun and H4198, slower being the others. What's your opinion on fast vs slow powders for this cartridge?

Anyone have any powder choices they use in the 35 whelen, even if not listed above?

[swheeler]

200 RCBS(215 gr dressed) brass formed from milsurp 06

IMR4227 27-1775 1.2 @50 (26-29 gr, 1682-1981)I stopped shooting these/ hangfires YMMV
aa5744 30-1817 1.2

Since you won't use a dacron filler these won't interest you but will list anyway

IMR4320 49-2152 1.1 @50 2@100 my best so far (47-49, 2021-2152)+ dacron
IMR 4198 33 2044 31-33-1927-2044+dacron

[Blammer]

thanks swheeler

does the dacron with the 4198 really make any difference?

[JesterGrin_1]

This thread might help. :) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=68897&highlight=360-220

[robroy]

Blammer, What alloy are you using?

[HARRYMPOPE]

25-27 H4227(no filler) and 250-280g bullets.Velocity 1650 or so and 1.5" or less 5 shot groups out of a unmodified Remington Classic 35 Whelen.Some groups under 1" but not enough to call it a MOA consistent rifle.

George

[waksupi]

SWheeler - I had to remove your last post. Some hacker figured out how to embed spam in a post. I'm pretty sure you didn't do it.

Every one, watch for a word in the posts that are highlighted. Moving your mouse over it will show an advertisement. Report the post, and we will hunt them down and kill them.

****! They just got this post, too!

[swheeler]

SWheeler - I had to remove your last post. Some hacker figured out how to embed spam in a post. I'm pretty sure you didn't do it.

Every one, watch for a word in the posts that are highlighted. Moving your mouse over it will show an advertisement. Report the post, and we will hunt them down and kill them.

****! They just got this post, too!

No problem Ric, get em!

[swheeler]

Blammer; I'd give the H380 a shot

[Blammer]

using regular WW's air cooled.

[Shuz]

You may wanna try some 4064. I've been using it for years in my 35 Whelen with a 358009.
This year...one shot 117 yds, dead deer.

[RugerFan]

Shooting the BRP 360-220 (PP) in my 35 Whelen, I got the best accuracy with IMR 4350 and it fills up the case pretty well (I forget the charge off hand and don't have my data in front of me). In fact, I ran out of case capacity and switched to Rel 17 in trying to reach 2400 FPS.

[Blammer]

so with IMR4350 how much would you start with? I cannot find a starting point.

[JesterGrin_1]

From Paco

30 grains of 4759 under a 200 grain cast bullet will give 2000 fps. 13 grains of Red Dot will give close to 1500 fps and 17 grains of Unique will go 1700 fps. 4+ grains of Bullseye will go 900 fps and quiet 9, (under the 290 grain it will be even quieter). My barrel length is 23 inches so I can’t get them silent...but past 25 to 30 yards it’s less then that cap gun we spoke of. 15 grains of Green Dot goes 1600+ fps. 9 to 10 grains of 231 will break 1000 fps...all with the 200 to 250 grain cast bullets.

[swheeler]

so with IMR4350 how much would you start with? I cannot find a starting point.

I am not speaking from personal experience, haven't been down the 4350 road yet, but 55 grains is where I'd start. Drop 357 Maximum a pm, he's using 4350.

[JesterGrin_1]

I am not speaking from personal experience, haven't been down the 4350 road yet, but 55 grains is where I'd start. Drop 357 Maximum a pm, he's using 4350.

I gave a link in post 4 for that information by 357 Maximum using H-4350.

[Blammer]

I knew someone gave it to me, sure enough it's a PM from 357max, so I have a starting point.
Thanks guys.

Now to load some and off to the range, when the wind stops blowing 30mph...

[RugerFan]

so with IMR4350 how much would you start with? I cannot find a starting point.

Looking at my notes I started with 49.0 gns of IMR 4350. Below is my Chrono data starting at 52 gns:

52.0 gns 2015 FPS

54.0 gns 2079 FPS

55.0 gns 2189 FPS

(REL 17 has the same burn rate, but is less dense)

[JesterGrin_1]

Looking at my notes I started with 49.0 gns of IMR 4350. Below is my Chrono data starting at 52 gns:

52.0 gns 2015 FPS

54.0 gns 2079 FPS

55.0 gns 2189 FPS

(REL 17 has the same burn rate, but is less dense)

And how did it work out for you? And Thank You for the information.

[RugerFan]

And how did it work out for you? And Thank You for the information.

Got good accuracy paper patching, but ran out of case capacity. That's why I switched to REL 17.

[Blammer]

Back from the range:

here is what I tested

RCBS 35-200
IMR4198
32gr, 33gr and 34gr
Most were hang fires, NOT good. A definite "click'' then ''boom'' kinda reminded me of a slow caplock muzzleloader firing.

Targets were fair, but I'm not saving any because I'm not dealing with hangfires.

this powder is out

next was the IMR4350 with reformed R-P cases, Wolf LR primers
RCBS 35-200gr boolits 215gr sized and checked wt, .358 sized w/ gator checks

50gr and 51gr gave about 2" groups at 50yds
52 and 53gr opened up to 5" of random hits at 50yds

no leading in the barrel at all from any shots.

I suspect I may need to water quench these boolits

My 170gr HP NOE 360180 boolits with 51gr of IMR4895 printed an inch group at 50yds, the usual,
and the 358009's also printed an inch group at 50yds, forgot the powder charge on them, the usual.

I'm just having a devil of a time with the 200gr inbetween.

[swheeler]

Blammer thanks for the report, may be time to switch to 50/50 h2o dropped alloy. Did you have the H380 on hand/ if so I sure would give it a try. FWIW, a tuft of dacron will get rid of the hangfires with 4198, just be sure to use enough to fill the space between the powder and base of the bullet.

[Blammer]

I do have H380 on hand, I'll try it too.

I looked at my notes and discovered there is a "window" of powder charges with IMR4895 I have not tried. The H380 and the IMR4895 are next up, along with WQ some cast boolits next time I cast.

[Blammer]

Ok, made up some Water quenched WW's, sized checked and lubed. I'll give them a go with a few other test loads.

I think I'll give IMR 4350 another run with the same components as above except with the WQ WW's. Ought to be interesting.

I suppose by the time I get to testing them they'll have aged appropriately so they'll be pleanty hard.

[Blammer]

Back from the range and here are some results.

35 Whelen

First up is a direct comparison

earlier I had tested the RCBS 35-200 Air Cooled with IMR4350
50 and 51gr gave me about 2" group at 50 yds

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/35Whelen/ACWWIMR4350001.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/35Whelen/ACWWIMR4350001.jpg.html)

I decided to test this again, all components the same except with WQWW's.

Knowing that 53gr of IMR4350 produced a vastly different results, 3x5" group vs the 2"x2" group I started close and worked up.

I shot this at 75 yds (yes farther)
RCBS 35-200 Water Quenched WW's (WQWW)
IMR4350
51gr produced an honest 1"x1-1/2" group for 5 shots
52gr produced two groups of two (holes cutting each other) and the 5th one 1" away making this a 1.5" group
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/35Whelen/WQWWIMR435052gr001.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/35Whelen/WQWWIMR435052gr001.jpg.html)
I am STOKED! Taaadaaa! I have victory! Yes the WQ did the trick!

Next up with WQWW's is IMR4895 with the RCBS 35-200

46gr through 51 gr was very accurate.

The one that really shined was the 51gr of IMR4895

4 shots into sub 3/4" and the 5th a giddy flyer on my part ( I was excited and wasn't concentrating) it was 2" high and 2" outside
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/35Whelen/ACWWIMR4350002.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Targets/35Whelen/ACWWIMR4350002.jpg.html)
so YES WQ does help.

[swheeler]

Blammer; looks like you are moving in the right direction, good! To bad you didn't have a powder that falls between 4350 and 4895 to try, wait you do H380~! Good job and keep posting.

[Blammer]

I waited 13days well close enough to two weeks after water dropping them to test them. I figure according to everyone they should be good to go after that long a time.

Now.... Will they work on deer? :)

I suspect they may.

[Marlin Junky]

How fast do you want to go? I'm looking at a 10 shot group in my notebook that was shot at 75 yards that's right at 1"... 2-bit size if you eliminate two stragglers (one at 12 and one at 3 o'clock). SAECO 356 at 200 grains checked, 450F heat treated wheel weights and 26 grains of WC-820 (1900 fps).

There's another 5-shot group in here that was shot with SAECO 352 at around 250 grains that went into 1/2" at 75 yards. It was heat treated and drawn back to BHN 16, propelled by 37 grains of Surplus 2200 and again, the velocity was right around 1900 fps.

If this can be done with BS surplus powders (sans filler) it sure can be done with 4759 on the light end and Re-7/3031 on the heavy end. Sorry I don't have any data for RCBS 35-200 in this cartridge but I betcha 35 grains of IMR 4198 and RCBS 35-200 at right around 215 grains should put you near 2000 fps with less than 25K PSI. If you want to fill the case a bit more, start with 40 grains 3031 and bring your chronograph to check extreme spread and standard deviation. The latter combo will probably do less than 20K PSI in a 24" barrel but you'll be able to shoot a softer alloy.

MJ

[bearcove]

Thanks for the update. Going down that road soon.

[GunnyJohn]

I just tried a new load this A.M. 50 grains of AA2520 behind 358318 ACWW book says 2373 fps the book lists a 358315 @2739fps with 54 grns AA2520. My load was extremely accurate. Only 3 rounds tested , am loading more today to test.

[sagamore-one]

My "standard" RCBS 200 boolit load is 38 gr of 4198 in reformed Rem 30-06 cases, cci mag primer. Under 1/2 inch at 50, obout 1 inch at 100. Stout load that was worked up to in my Mauser with A& B barrel. For groundhogs I use 57 gr of 3031 under a 150 Rem jacketed soft point. Vaporizes a vermin.
Caution.... stout loads that were worked up to in my rifle.

[Blammer]

Now I'm AMAZED! Surprised is a good word too.

I broke out the chrony and decided to shoot a few of my new fav load over it.

the 51gr of IMR 4895 with Wolf LR primers, in 30-06 winchester reformed brass
RCBS 35-200 Water quenched WW's.
in my Marlin XL7 35 whelen with the 14T Shilen Barrel

chrony set at the length of the cable for the reader box thingy

2475FPS! That is smokin' fast in my book, all that I ever wanted. I'll stop now and load a bunch for shooting and hunting!
That is 220gr jacketed bullet velocity. My cast wt's about 210gr or so.

[waksupi]

Now I'm AMAZED! Surprised is a good word too.

I broke out the chrony and decided to shoot a few of my new fav load over it.

the 51gr of IMR 4895 with Wolf LR primers, in 30-06 winchester reformed brass
RCBS 35-200 Water quenched WW's.
in my Marlin XL7 35 whelen with the 14T Shilen Barrel

chrony set at the length of the cable for the reader box thingy

2475FPS! That is smokin' fast in my book, all that I ever wanted. I'll stop now and load a bunch for shooting and hunting!
That is 220gr jacketed bullet velocity. My cast wt's about 210gr or so.

DJ, now that you have found that out, I recommend you find a slower load for hunting. Shoot one deer with a load that fast, and you will find you do not have much left to eat.

[JesterGrin_1]

DJ, now that you have found that out, I recommend you find a slower load for hunting. Shoot one deer with a load that fast, and you will find you do not have much left to eat.

It all depends on the distance. As I remember he was looking for a 200 yard load. Now if he shoots something close lol.

[Blammer]

yea, I was looking for a 100+ out to 200yd load.

I may have to develop a slower, close in load. :) Have that one loaded and if I see one WaY out there, swap ammo.

[sundog]

I'm with Shuz. ACWW 358009 over 4064 or 4895. Makes a really nice pile driver!

[T_McD]

In for the load info

[DeputyDuke]

Every time I experience less than desired accuracy, the first thing I do is go to a fatter bullet. I tried to reread the posts and the only reference I saw to diameter was a hand written note on one of your targets at .358". Can we discuss that? I have a 35 Whelen and shoot the RCBS 200 and the Saeco 245 in a 1/16 twist, and have only tried .360" bullets.

[Blammer]

The reason I only went with that dia bullet was that was the fattest that would chamber. It being a custom barrel and all the tolerances on the rifling were pretty tight, so the .358 was it, and it filled the grooved fully.

[Loudenboomer]

Blammer
My rifle shot it's best with a middle of the road charge of AA2230 and a 280 gr nose rider bullet from accurate sized .360. 4198 was inconsistent for me. Paco Kelly's H414 load is fast and Very powerful.
Good results were obtained with a case full of WC 860 and a 4198 kicker. PM me if you would like charge weight info.

[5Shot]

After 7 years I bet he has a load for this rifle.

[Blammer]

:D and use it often. :D

[T_McD]

You still using the one 4895 load? That one looks like it meets my requirements to set off tannerite.

[Blammer]

I am, used it this year to kill a nice 8pt buck!