43 Spanish Frustration - Neck Turning?

[jbrower]

A few months ago I picked up a very nice Remington Rolling Block on an online auction for a very good price. It was advertised as being in 45-70. It is not marked anywhere though other than the "three line" markings on the tang and a "B" on the left side of the barrel knoxform. My guess is that this is one of the fabled Remington Argentine overruns that were never shipped to Argentina but instead sold by Remington commercially.

When I received it I tried putting a 45-70 case in it and it stopped about 1/2 inch too soon and would not go in all the way. uh oh. Made a chamber cast and it turns out that it's actually a 43 Spanish (not 43 Reformado) chamber.

so...

I picked up 30 pcs of (expensive) Betram 43 Spanish brass, a Lee die set and a .439 Lyman bullet mold. Ran the brass through the sizing die and it still would not chamber all the way. It seems that Betram made this brass too long as it was several hundredths of an inch longer than what my reloading sources say it should be. I trimmed it back to 2.255" and it chambered fine.

Then I put together a dummy round by seating a .439 bullet with a very slight taper crimp. It would not chamber.

For comparison, took a piece of Starline 45-90 brass, ran it through my 43 Spanish die, trimmed it to the proper length and seated a bullet. It chambers just fine. Just by eyeballing the cases I can tell that the walls on the Starline brass are thinner than the walls on the Bertram brass.

I'm no expert reloader but I think that this tells me that I need to now neck-turn my 43 Spanish brass if I want to use it.

I've never neck-turned brass before but it does not look like a very difficult exercise. Problem is, nobody seems to make a .439 pilot. RCBS makes a 44 cal pilot though. Does anyone see a problem with me running my brass through a 44 cal expander, neck turning it to proper thickness and then sizing it down in my 43 Spanish die? Obviously I'd anneal the brass before attempting this.

Any other suggestions? I really want to get this Roller shooting.

[Skipper]

I think I'd trade the Bertram for some brass I could use.

[GUSTAVOAR]

Hello:
Just use 45-90 Brass, trim to length, run through .43 Spanish die and forget the Bertam.

SALUDOS

(From ARGENTINA)

[I'll Make Mine]

Umm. Isn't a .44 expander and pilot usually for .430 bullets (that's the size used in .44 Special and Magnum factory loads)? I don't know that there'd be a problem, but you'd have to size down to .44, turn, then expand back to .439 for your Spanish.

Alternately, I'd bet there are folks here who could make you a .439 pilot to fit the RCBS neck turner...

[geargnasher]

A file, drill press, and sand paper will make short work of a .45 turner pilot. Turning for minimum clearance is strong advantage with cast boolits, I'd give my eye teeth to have your problem with some of my guns.

Gear

[Lead pot]

Hello:
Just use 45-90 Brass, trim to length, run through .43 Spanish die and forget the Bertam.

SALUDOS

(From ARGENTINA)

That brass will not work for the .43's .516 base diameter. You will split the case wide open with the first shot fired.

[John Boy]

Problem is, nobody seems to make a .439 pilot.
Forster will custom size nearly any diameter ID neck reamer you need ... call them
p: (815) 493-6360 Open 8 A.M. - 4 P.M. Central Time Zone

[MikeS]

Unrelated to your problem, but I'm wondering, does the action of your rifle actually say Remington on it? Or does it have a crown with a stylized AR underneath it, with a date underneath that? If it does, then it's a spanish made rolling block which has some different specs than most rolling blocks.

[Geobru]

I have to outside neck ream my 40-82 brass because the bore is .409 and the chamber was milled for .406 sized bullets. The loaded cartridge with the .410 bullet measures .434 outside the brass, and that diameter has to be .430 in order to chamber.

I load the case with powder, insert the bullet and use a Lee three jaw chuck in a drill and carefully turn down the outside of the case with a file until it will chamber. The bullet acts as the pilot. I have to do this with new brass, and periodically after multiple reloads. I touch the case up if it gets hard to load.

IIRC, the cost of the Chuck and drill mandrel is less tha $20. Works for me!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
That is the first (for me ) caliber 43 Spanish Rifle that does not have a bore larger than .442. Have not been around more than 5 and they all were large grooved. That makes alot of sense for a military rifle that was expected to be fired many times before cleaning the chamber area.
To have one that is tight bored and not requiring to either lap open a .439 mold or use .443+ molds would be a pleasure. My old Lyman .439 400gr RN when cast with 40-1 drops at .437 if my memory is still remembering.
Personally I would get me a 8 ounce lump of the "Cerrosafe" being offered down in the sales area, make a chamber cast to know for sure what you are really dealing with.
Mike in ILL

[curator]

jbrower,

You can get away with thick necks and slightly undersize bullets if you go the black powder route. As missionary5155 says most if not all .43 Spanish bores are oversize for the "specified" .439 diameter bullet. Load 80 grains of Fg black powder and make your bullet of 40 to 1 lead/tin alloy and it will shoot just fine. Another option (for much appreciated lighter recoil) is 60 grains of Fg or even FFg and then fill the case to the bullet base with cream of wheat. This is a very accurate load and burns cleaner than a full case of Fg. It is also much nicer to shoot unless you enjoy a good beating.

Buffaloarms makes .43 Spanish brass from .348 Winchester cases that have necks thin enough to chamber with .442 diameter bullets and less than half as much $$$ as Betram.

[Yellowhouse]

Paper patch that bugger like it was intended and you won't have to turn anything. You will need to do a chamber cast, then sit down and do a little math with neck thickness, paper thickness, etc to determine your optimal bullet diameter. I'd just about betcha a Shiner Bock that this bullet, a straight side .422, would wrap right up where you want it. But ya better do the cast and the math first. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=42-375P-D.png

[powderburnerr]

I go with yellowhouse on this ,,, do it right and it gets easy.

[WARD O]

I'm with Yellowhorse too! Looks like a perfect opportunity to try some bore diameter paper patched lead bullets with black powder - might be exactly what the gun was set up for originally.

ward

[mdevlin53]

I have the same problem with some of my brass. I have two seperate lots of brass for my .43 Spanish, one was from Buffalo arms and came pre-sized the other i bought from a member here(.43 spanish basic brass). What i can say is that there are differences. the formed brass has a bevel on the rim and is much thinner in the neck, so much so that after sizing i almost dont have enough neck tension to keep the boolit seated with out a heavy crimp. the bras i anealed and formed has such a thick neck that if i load them with a .439 boolit they will not chamber. I am thinking about the best way to necksize. I would have to find someone to take a skim cut on a pilot and would be out about 60 bucks or more to trim 20 cases. I dont like the idea of a file and sandpaper. The cases only lack about .003 from fitting. so close but so far.

[40-82 hiker]

I am new to CASTBOOLITS, so I cannot list stuff for sale yet. However, I have .43 Spanish brass that is unfired and "new", but made in the 50s or early 60s by CCC. It is head stamped ".43 SP RB". If you are interested in any of the CCC brass let me know. However, I do not know the protocol for newbies as regards this situation...

[40-82 hiker]

I just made some .40-82 brass out of Starline .45-2.6" brass and had the same problem. However, I got Forster to make an inside neck reamer.. We got to the same place but from different directions. However, I give it to you for smarts, as it never occurred to me to do it your way. I will try it in the future if given the need...

[EDG]

Make a case of your chamber then transfer all the numbers to a drawing.
Then consult the drawing before you start cutting up brass. You will wind up with fewer surprises when you stuff cases in the chamber.
I would find someone to make you a neck turning mandrel and forget the reamer stuff. Reamers are not adjustable. Reamers also just follow the hole. They do not correct neck thickness variations.
Assuming you can find a neck turning tool large enough, get a mandrel or pilot made and turn those necks.
The adjustability of a turning tool allows you to make the neck thickness exactly what you want.

[singleshotman]

i have been neck reaming for about forty years now in spite of the fact that i own a Lathe-its much faster to use a case trimmer in a drill press and ream out .002-.003 in order to fit.Did this on 11mm gras and other BP rifles so i did not need paper patched bullets.They work just fine but are a pain to patch with my arthritic hands.I also reamed out shortened 45 colt cases to work in a Webley .450 Revolver and they worked fine,but of course i needed to thin the rims,typical British thin rims.

[bigted]

before cutting//grinding//trimming...ect...ect...

fill the fireformed case mouth with a patched boolit and let fly.

only fill or remove metal from anything as a last resort.

[GunStuff]

That brass will not work for the .43's .516 base diameter. You will split the case wide open with the first shot fired.

You think? So all the people that have been shooting 43 Mauser made from 45/90 brass have been doing it wrong.

[bigted]

thought we were talkin bout the 43 spanish??? as in .339 inch groove diameter barrel?? this and the 43 mouser are different cats.

[GunStuff]

thought we were talkin bout the 43 spanish??? as in .339 inch groove diameter barrel?? this and the 43 mouser are different cats.
Yes, 43 Spanish is a very nice caliber. I'll be looking for any at this season's gun shows.

Re. My 43 Mauser comment had to do with making unavailable brass out of 45/90 cases. Both the 43 Spanish and the 43 Mauser have slightly larger base diameters than is found on the 45/90 cases. Fire forming them to fit a 43 rifle will not "split the case wide open with the first shot fired" as the arm chair poster was suggesting.

[TNsailorman]

fireform your brass--do not resize. measure the inside diameter after firing and that is the right size to paper patch your bullet to. wrap it large enough to just barely push into the case without tearing the paper. My wife bought me a .43 spanish rolling block for my birthday in 1965. I could not find ammo or dies, bullets, etc. for it for about 3 years. Finally an old timer told me to use .348 winchester brass and I talked Fred Huntington into making me a set of dies for it. Resized .348 brass will work but it has short case life because there is a small difference in the diameter of the body and the spanish case. After years of frustrations with this caliber, I came onto this and it works for me. I found the proper brass cases. I use bullets dropped from the .439 Lyman mold and patch to the right diameter with thin onion skin paper and Lee LLA lube. works like a charm for me. as already stated before, a lot of these old rolling block spanish rifle have loose bores and tight neck chambers, makes it rough getting the bullet to fit right if you use standard size methods. my experience anyway.