45-70 sizing and neck tension

[XTR]

I've discovered that pretty much every die I have (3 of them) to resize, whether full length or neck sizer results in a ridiculous amount of neck tension. Like 0.010 or more depending on how the bullet is sized. These will actually be pretty good if I'm sizing PP bullets to bore size, then we are talking about 0.002.

I've tried a number of things including partial insertion into the dies to get less and nothing seems to be working. I'm considering having some expanders made and running them in a second step, that would ensure my tension and I could probably get 3 or 4 made up to fit in a seater die body. I know it works the brass* but at least I'd be able to control my neck tension. I've thought of having my neck sizer opened up but that assumes that I'll have uniform brass thickness and I refuse to turn necks for my F-TR loads so I'm damned well not about to start for my 45-70.

*a Bench Source annealer is on my list of things to get for my F-TR loads anyway so keeping the brass annealed shouldn't really be a problem

Lee doesn't make a 45 cal collet sizer and I haven't seen any busing dies anywhere either,a nyone got a better answer,

[Chill Wills]

Bushing dies have too much run-out ....even on the very well made ones... even with carbide in expensive die holders and even tried floating holders. I've shot them for a year or so until they drove me crazy. Oddly enough, there is much less run-out with the Lyman neck sizer die than the bushing die and then use the custom expander from Buffalo Arms CO bring the cases back up to the size you want. After necking back up, the spring back in the brass will tighten the pull too so order accordingly. For Singleshot BPCR bullets I use the same size expander as bullet, as an example 0.459" bullet, I like a 0.459" expander and the spring back is enough to hold the cases on the bullet tighter than you can pull with your fingers.

I have found that the softer BPCR bullets 10 BHN - 14BHN will be sized down by the brass if a regular 3-die set expander is used and then the bullet is seated. Then you are not shooting the .459" diameter bullet you thought you were.
BTW The Lyman neck sizer almost sizes as much as the FL dies but somewhat less

[Gunlaker]

Xtr, Buffalo Arms makes custom expander plus that will fit RCBS dies. They are cheap enough that it's worth buying a few different sizes. For loads with neck tension I generally resize by backing the full length sizer die off 3 turns. Some of my rifles utilize zero neck tension ( i.e. unsized cases).

You might want to check out the Meecham Tool websight. They make all sorts of nifty things like bushing sizers for BPCR rifles. I don't have their sizers but really like their "push through" style bullet lubrisizer.

Chris.

[EDG]

Track of the Wolf also makes expanders in .001 increments though the ones that I got needed polishing due to the mediocre finish. Bushing dies are available. If your chamber allows a lot of case expansion you may have to polish a long generous lead into the bushing to obtain concentric sizing.
As Chill Wills says if you use full hard brass with a .456 or .457 expander it may damage the bullet bases.
Anneal the top 3/4 of the case and expand it to .459 or .460.
Oh yeah don't bother with those crummy hard cast commercial bullets. Get a mold that casts a bullet to fit your rifle.

[XTR]

Thanks for the feedback.

EDG, this is for my C Sharps, I'm getting set up to shoot 1000 yd BPCTR. I'll be casting Postel or Money bullets in the 500 to 535 range.

[Kraschenbirn]

We've got a forum member (Buckshot) who makes custom expander dies for straight wall cases. You might want to touch base with him before ordering anything from Buffalo or Track of the Wolf. The ones he made for me (.38-55 and .45-70) were well-finished and right on the money for expansion diameter and depth.

Bill

[Chill Wills]

Kraschenbirn,
I know how to PM him but does he have a web page or something on here with product, services and prices to look at?

[fouronesix]

XTR

For both my Shiloh and C Sharps I do anneal the necks every few loadings. I use a Lyman neck sizing die adjusted so the neck is sized to the depth that the bullet will be seated. I then use one of the custom neck expanders that BACo sells. Those expanders are similar to the Lyman M die type. You can call BACo and let them know the specs for the 2 diameters desired (one major diameter then one step diameter.. similar to the Lyman M). I think an independent machine shop makes them. So, if your sizes are not in stock, it may take a couple or three weeks. Those combinations of loading tools/techniques have allowed me to shoot some extremely small groups with the Sharps. May not be the only reason, but I know that it has to be part of it.

[MikeS]

Is there any reason a Lyman M die wouldn't do what you want? While not in their catalog, I believe you can call Lyman and get expanders in whatever size you want, and for not much money either.

[bigted]

i guess i been spoiled with my paperpatchin...i dont size those cases at all...i load a boolit of the diameter that is the fired case dimension and taper crimp em so i do not have this problem of my yesterdays in my loading process.

i havnt done so but why wouldnt this same theory work with greesers? cast a size that will seat in a fired case that has been slightly flaired so as to not shave lead and taper crimp so the boolit stay's in the case till ignition?

...looks like i have a upcoming experiment huh?

[XTR]

A Lyman M would probably work if they'll make them in the sizes I want, on the other hand I'd just as soon do business with BACO, they seem to support the sport pretty well.

I didn't realize that the expanders were readily available. I've got to get a couple of them, one set for my Highwall and another for my C Sharps.

[Chill Wills]

Is there any reason a Lyman M die wouldn't do what you want? While not in their catalog, I believe you can call Lyman and get expanders in whatever size you want, and for not much money either.

Maybe, I have not used Lyman for this. Their M dies are not all that bad but did not know anything about custom size units.
Buffalo arms will make to order what you need (fast) if not in stock - $19.00
Besides, you just might get something else from them you can not live with out while ordering[smilie=1:
http://www.buffaloarms.com/.450_.470_custom_expanders_pr-4168.aspx?CAT=4168

You can not go wrong ordering from BA CO as Dave is a BPCR shooter and his products are first rate.

[Chill Wills]

i guess i been spoiled with my paperpatchin...i dont size those cases at all...i load a boolit of the diameter that is the fired case dimension and taper crimp em so i do not have this problem of my yesterdays in my loading process.

i havnt done so but why wouldnt this same theory work with greesers? cast a size that will seat in a fired case that has been slightly flaired so as to not shave lead and taper crimp so the boolit stay's in the case till ignition?

...looks like i have a upcoming experiment huh?

Ted, there is a lot to be said for that with GG bullets too - IF your rifles chamber is up to it. Loose chamber necks on some rifles are just too large for me and sizing and expanding is what I do in this case.
Some of my best rifles are tight necked enough that what you describe works out well. I had a CPA 38-55 years ago just like this and it shot well and not much use for a set of dies to load it either!
Michael Rix

[Don McDowell]

My wifes Winchester bpcr and my shiloh neither one need to resize the cases, so just a tiny bit of case mouth flare to allow the base of the bullet to enter without getting scraped is all that's needed. I use the case mouth expander from the Hornady die set for that, and then use the Lyman M die to compress the powder with the wad on the top.
My C Sharps I have to resize and all that, so I just use the Lyman die set for it.
Another vote for BACO's custom expander dies , and their bullet size dies.

[Kraschenbirn]

Kraschenbirn,
I know how to PM him but does he have a web page or something on here with product, services and prices to look at?

Not that I'm aware of. I first got in touch after he was recommended by another forum member. I PM'd and told him what I was looking for and his reply suggested what I really needed. The rest, as they say, is history.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

i havnt done so but why wouldnt this same theory work with greesers?
It does work, and many use the 'zero neck tension' method.

I lube my .460" bullets in a lubrisizer die that is also .460", so it applies the lube without decreasing bullet diameter. That .460" is a close slip-fit in my fired cases, and 'lube suction' is enough to keep them from falling out if inverted. Those bullets can be pulled by hand, but you have to 'want to' .

Since I also paper patch to .460", I can load a given case with either bullet ... depending on my mood.

The only press-mounted die I use regularly is for powder compression.

CM

[EDG]

>>>why wouldnt this same theory work with greesers?<<<
I do something similar with grease groove bullets. With a well annealed case that is sized in standard dies I expand the case to .001 smaller than the bullet. The bullets are seated with the normal seater but about .050 too long. When chambered in my Highwalls I can can thumbseat the loaded round though it sometimes takes a heavy push with my thumb.

[Hip's Ax]

For my mid range 45-70 and long range 45-90 black powder cartridge target rifles there is no resizing done at all. Trim them if they need it, chamfer and slip fit the bullet. Also suggest setting your compression to put the bullet just touching the lands.

Once in a while you might find one that might not want to chamber all the way with just thumb pressure. I am shooting CPA Stevens 44 1/2's so I have a little "camming" action so I rarely have one like that I can't get in. I do have a lever (brand new hammer handle) in my stool to help with leverage if needed (the square part where the head of the hammer should be fits nicely into my open action) but have not had to use it in some time.

Cases last up to 25 or more fireings when they are never resized. Usually retire them due to ragged flashholes but found that a single newspaper wad over the flash hole tightens the groups right back up.

[dagger dog]

[QUOTE=Gunlaker;1897783]Xtr, Some of my rifles utilize zero neck tension ( i.e. unsized cases).

Gunlaker,
Are those rifles ones with chambers that are able to seat the bullet into the lands?

[Gunlaker]

[QUOTE=Gunlaker;1897783]Xtr, Some of my rifles utilize zero neck tension ( i.e. unsized cases).

Gunlaker,
Are those rifles ones with chambers that are able to seat the bullet into the lands?

Yeah. Usually with zero neck tension I use at least 0.2" of compression and seat the bullet into the lands. That was the advice given to me by more experienced shooters and it seems to work well. Those particular loads use bullets with reduced driving bands and I do seat them all well into the rifling. Actions are all 1885 single shots.

I do also use zero neck tension for PP bullets out of my Sharps rifles too :-)

Chris.