Help retired Machinist, Tool & Die Maker guys

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I hope I asked for the right guys in my post as I was guessing you fellas could help me with my problem. I've got a good friend I've done gun smithing with for years. He's always been the machinist side of our combo and I'm the hand fitting guy. His Dad was a machinist, owned a lathe and he grew up standing on a milk crate learning to operate it and has that lathe today (his father's lathe). I was an armorer in the service, then got out and took all the hand work courses at the gun smithing school, about the same time as he was taking the machinist courses.

Okay, enough of the background stuff. For years, my buddy has been using a steady rest tipped with brass bushings to stabilize/hold work at the business end when doing barrel work such as cutting crowns, etc. He's excellent (sometimes amazing) at the work, but the bushings always leave a mark on the barrel that requires a good bit of time and effort getting out, slowing down getting the work out the door.

We've been good friends for many, many years now and I would very much like to acquire a set of roller bearing tips for his steady rest that would not leave such a mark or leave less of a mark.

Here's the information on the lathe he has:

South bend 9" Precision Lathe (4 1/2 bed?) Model A, 110 volt motor with a usable length for gun smithing of 40 inches. I think over all length was 54 inches, leather belt driven.

The lathe he owns looks a lot like the lathe advertised in this link:

http://www.junkyardfind.com/item.php?id=712

I think the total bed length is 54", but I'm not positive. I got the information over the phone with him, but he's not the best when providing information over the phone and he was busy and I was trying not to let him know why I was asking.

He told me at the time he ordered parts for the lathe from South Bend, a steady rest with roller bearing tips for that 9 inch lathe was not available as an option, possibly because of the size, but he felt it should be, because when working with gun parts/barrels, the parts are small enough he can use one. This one looks like the one he has now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TELESCOPIC-STEADY-REST-SOUTH-BEND-9-LATHE-/400322796640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d35191c60

What he wants is to replace the brass tips(name?) with roller bearings tips to minimize work marring. Something like these:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/bmeyer6472/PICT0002-1.jpg

Here's the information on how these were made for a 10L steady rest:

"The bearings are 1/2" diameter by 3/16" wide, and have a 1/4" axle hole. If I remember right, I got them from ENCO, but they should be available just about anywhere. The axles are mild steel - I used 12L14. Unfortunately I don't have any drawings of the parts, but you can do what I did and just copy the brass tips and then mill slots in them to accept the rollers. I reamed the axle holes in the tips for a close fit with the axles, which were also knurled on one end to help hold them in place. This was one of those typical jobs where you just get started and make it up as you go along. :-)

Oh yeah, I also made the tips from 12L14 - I think I used 3/4" diameter and then turned it down to the diameter of the fingers - it's been a while... But it's a pretty straightforward job."

Here's the help I need:

I have no idea where to get steady rest roller bearing tips that would fit his steady rest, no idea what part number he might need, no idea how to go about getting that part number. I would prefer to buy an American made part if possible, used in excellent shape that will match the lathe's age/appearance and be "right" for that lathe if that makes sense. I would also be happy with getting somebody to make these for me from this forum. I just ask that the roller bearing be a common part so that should one fail, he can get another bearing and replace it from shelf stock locally.

I remember when he brought it home after his father passed. It was covered in grease/cutting oil mixed with metal shavings and the leather drive belt had dried up. Next thing I knew, he had cleaned it up and it looked like a brand new lathe ready to go on a production floor. The grease had totally protected the old lathe. He got new leather drive belts from somewhere and the lathe runs smooth as glass.

Can you fellas help me get my buddy roller bearing tips or help me figure out how to make such a critter? I figure if it isn't sold, the holders for those brass tips could likely be modified to take a roller bearing or a tip with the roller bearings like the one pictured above could be made pretty easily by a knowledgeable machinist. I think he could probably make them for himself, but he's hip deep in guns to repair and doesn't have time, so I figured I'd get them for him for a Christmas gift.

One last thing: I'm not a machinist, not even a hobby one. I'm an armorer with and have a very high level of hand fitting skills. I can use a hacksaw and a file to make gunsmithing tools and small parts, but I have ZERO training on a lathe or a mill and don't have the machinist technical language. Which is why I'm needing some help.

Thank you for your help.

[bruce drake]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TELESCOPIC-STEADY-REST-SOUTH-BEND-9-LATHE-/400322796640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d35191c60

currently on Ebay with 6 available.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Bend-9-Model-B-C-FACTORY-Steady-Rest-/251169332783?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a7adbde2f

Here's an older original South Bend model

[leftiye]

Find or make some ball bearing rollers that will thread onto the ends of his existing steady rest's fingers (turn down and thread the fingers).

[32ideal]

Best answer is a tight fitting sleeve to fit over the barrel/part area I wanted to protect if it had to be kept in original condition, you can also make adjustable sleeves that have a small amount of clearance and attach with multiple set screws against small pieces of aluminum shim to protect area where they go against the barrel, both sleeves must be trued on part between centers before use with the steady rest.
Roller bearings may still make marks on the item you are turning and do not work well on tapered surfaces like barrels, true straight round stock they are great on, they can cause lots of damage especially if a stray chip gets between part and rollers.
32ideal

[Lefty SRH]

What about a tough plastic insert instead. I know delrin is quite cheap and rather tough.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TELESCOPIC-STEADY-REST-SOUTH-BEND-9-LATHE-/400322796640?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d35191c60

currently on Ebay with 6 available.

Bruce

He already has one of these, I'm looking to get roller bearing tips for this type steady rest.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Best answer is a tight fitting sleeve to fit over the barrel/part area I wanted to protect if it had to be kept in original condition, you can also make adjustable sleeves that have a small amount of clearance and attach with multiple set screws against small pieces of aluminum shim to protect area where they go against the barrel, both sleeves must be trued on part between centers before use with the steady rest.
Roller bearings may still make marks on the item you are turning and do not work well on tapered surfaces like barrels, true straight round stock they are great on, they can cause lots of damage especially if a stray chip gets between part and rollers.
32ideal

While a nice idea and a good solution, this would take way too much time with the quantity and variety of barrels he works on. He wants the roller barrels to reduce marking on barrel's he's typically doing crown or chambering work on. The roller bearings he felt was the best solution, he just hasn't had time to implement it by locating or buying the roller tips. He's got enough work coming in he simply doesn't have the time to make a lot of tools any more, he needs to be able to stick with doing the gun work itself. Hence this post.


Additionally, most barrels will be polished/blued after barrel work, so minor marks are acceptable. The brass marks take a good bit of time to get the brass off and to clean up the marks made on barrels.

As far as chips go, typically the distance between the rest and where he's doing the work is enough that chip damage is not a concern.

[deltaenterprizes]

+ 1 on 32ideal's idea. I made a small spider with 4
1/4 brass screws on each end from a water pipe scrap I turned and polished on the outside to run smoothly in the steady. Bronze bushings of various sizes are available from bearing supply houses and can be heated to expand for installation and removal and only cost a few dollars.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

What about a tough plastic insert instead. I know delrin is quite cheap and rather tough.

A roller type tip or a tip that the delrin could be replaced would be good for already finished barrels. For that matter, a roller bearing with an outer covering of delrin would be a good idea.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

+ 1 on 32ideal's idea. I made a small spider with 4
1/4 brass screws on each end from a water pipe scrap I turned and polished on the outside to run smoothly in the steady. Bronze bushings of various sizes are available from bearing supply houses and can be heated to expand for installation and removal and only cost a few dollars.

A picture of these things would be helpful. I can't make them though, I'm not a machinist I don't own any powered machinery, as he's the partner that handles that and he doesn't have the time. I do the hand fitting, polishing, lapping and such as that.

Hence why I want to get him a nice Christmas gift that'll increase the through put that he doesn't have to make.

Perhaps both these items (roller bearing tips and bushings) would be worth while to have made. What I want to do is be able to give him a nice "gift set" of this stuff he can start using immediately. He already spends more time making tools to do specialty work than we can afford with the demand we've got. Atlanta's a big town with very few gunsmiths and lots of repair work needed. Easy to get buried here.

[Nobade]

Aw, you guys are making it too hard! What I do is two turns of electrical tape around the barrel with the ends butted up to each other, making sure to wrap in the right direction. A little way oil on it and it'll run in the steady rest for long enough to cut the crown, just keep it wet with oil. Doesn't leave any marks on the barrel at all.

Been doing barrels this way for years and never had a problem yet.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

A roll of electrical tape and a can of way oil. What a Christmas gift! Gotta love it and wonder why he didn't think of that. Wait, he's Polish, that explains it.:D

[dragonrider]

"they can cause lots of damage especially if a stray chip gets between part and rollers."

That is the reason I don't use roller bearing tipped arms in a steady rest. Brass only for me. Brass tips will sweep chips and most trash away if it fits the radius of the workpiece well. Plus roller bearing do not offer enough surface contact to control vibration.

[theperfessor]

I have a roller bearing equipped steady rest for my 15" Clausing and I can confirm that getting a chip under the bearing will not only mark a surface badly, it can also explode what is nothing more than a roller bearing. I always keep a few around as replacements/spares for when that happens.

They're a nice alternative but not without potential problems.

[bob208]

i have made fingers with the bearings for a ac-delco altenator. use the ones for a 75 and older. drill tap and mount them on the fingers. have done many barrels and other long things with them.

[Reg]

Bronze or brass tipped steady rests will impact with grit or metal flakes and scour the surface of the barrel. Roller bearings tend to press the surface in leaving their mark or if you get a small part of metal swarf rolling through the rollers, it will really mark things up. The only safe way I have ever found to work on a barrel and leave no marks whatever is by using a "cat head".
If I could reduce picture sizes to put on here I would just send a pic of one in use but for what ever reason I tend to have trouble every time I try.
Will try to explain it.
Mine is made from a 3 inch long piece of 1.5" ID x 2.5" OD seamless tubing. One half inch from each end it is drilled and tapped 1/4"x20 tpi. Both ends are drilled and tapped and they are in line with each other. 1/4" x 1 inch set screws are set in all 8 holes and are set up on the outside of the tube with jam nuts. It is slid over the barrel ( that is already set up on centers in the lathe) and by using the set screws, is made to run dead true ( both ends) by adjusting the set screws in and out. Kind of like setting a double ended, 4 jaw chuck. It is protected from touching the barrel by shims made from a hard hack saw blade and they can be held in position with masking tape. When true, the jam nuts are set. They do not need to be overly tight. Then the steady rest is set in place on the center of the cat head. This way if a small chip or what ever runs through the contact points, it will scratch the cat head and not the barrel.
I know this sounds like Greek but it's one of those things that actually takes much longer to explain than to do. You do have to know how to read and run a dial indicator. One side benefit of this system is it fits all barrels, you do not need a different sleeve for each barrel and in the case that I have done several times, you can actually offset the barrel, say like if you want to fit a .22 rimfire barrel to a old single shot action that was in 25 or .32 rimfire. You first have to determine where that firing pin is actually striking, most I have seen are either at 6 o'clock or at 12 o'clock. Measure the needed off set and then with the cat head running true in the steady rest, you can turn the barrel extension to a correct fit.
Hope this make sense. If needed , send me a PM and I will send pics to your e-mail address.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

i have made fingers with the bearings for a ac-delco altenator. use the ones for a 75 and older. drill tap and mount them on the fingers. have done many barrels and other long things with them.

That sounds a lot like what I first envisioned.

[jmorris]

What if you worked over some roller lifters out of an automotive engine. Cutting them down might make you need an abrasive saw but with a lathe the bushings to mate the two should be easy.

Then again if you have a lathe you could machine a bushing that goes over the barrel and gets tight, sort of like an H with a hole in it and use what you already have.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

What if you worked over some roller lifters out of an automotive engine. Cutting them down might make you need an abrasive saw but with a lathe the bushings to mate the two should be easy.

Then again if you have a lathe you could machine a bushing that goes over the barrel and gets tight, sort of like an H with a hole in it and use what you already have.

Unfortunately, I don't have the skills to do this and my buddy is backed up enough now with gun work I'm trying to discourage him from making tools. Every time he stops to make a tool, we lose time working on guns and we're already 6-9 months out of where we ought to be.

[Reg]

Dave, did you get my PM. Will get those pics later in the morning. Fab time should be less than a hour. We are not talking rocket science here !! Need that address.
R

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Reg,

I did and I sent you an email and a pm.

Dave

[Pavogrande]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the issue but -- just get three ball bearings as narrow as available about 3/4 to 1" od and 1/4 to 5/16 id. drill and tap the brass/bronze fingers and mount them --

[Mooseman]

A much simpler approach is a cathead or variation there of. This is a long brass or bronze bushing that is adjustable and locks to the barrel with 4 set screws and a layer of tape will protect the barrel from the set screws , or they can be plastic or lead tipped as well.
The bushing rides on the steady rest and not the barrel so there is NO marring of the bluing.
Here is a pic similar and one of these Complete bearing type can also be made for a lathe dedicated to just barrels.
49054

Rich

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Rich,

Thank you for posting that, it is an ideal solution for my friend. Simple and better than the steady rest he is using now.

Now who can make one of these for me to fit my friend's lathe?

Yes, I am willing to pay for the work and the shipping as long as it's done in time for Christmas delivery.

[Mooseman]

Here is a better picture to show a machinist what you want. You will need to know the maximum diameter the steady rest will accept and have the center hole bored to 1.5 inches should cover 99% of all barrels and slip over the sights . It also works on octagon barrels too.
Works on square stock too.
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/lathework/page12.htm
2 Top notch machinists here That I know here are Buckshot and JTKnives.
I am certain there are more.
Rich

[oldred]

The roller bearings are just one of those ideas that sounds great UNTIL you put it to work. Rollers will still leave a mark (especially on a taper since only the edge of the bearing makes contact and a small chip can become a big problem in a hurry! My roller-rest has been collecting dust for a while now, ever since I had to scrap a small hydraulic cylinder shaft I was working on because of scoring from a chip and a broken bearing (more like exploded bearing as was described above).

[leftiye]

Metal adhesive heater tape. wrap the barrel. Available at ace hardware stores.

[skimmerhead]

Bronze or brass tipped steady rests will impact with grit or metal flakes and scour the surface of the barrel. Roller bearings tend to press the surface in leaving their mark or if you get a small part of metal swarf rolling through the rollers, it will really mark things up. The only safe way I have ever found to work on a barrel and leave no marks whatever is by using a "cat head".
If I could reduce picture sizes to put on here I would just send a pic of one in use but for what ever reason I tend to have trouble every time I try.
Will try to explain it.
Mine is made from a 3 inch long piece of 1.5" ID x 2.5" OD seamless tubing. One half inch from each end it is drilled and tapped 1/4"x20 tpi. Both ends are drilled and tapped and they are in line with each other. 1/4" x 1 inch set screws are set in all 8 holes and are set up on the outside of the tube with jam nuts. It is slid over the barrel ( that is already set up on centers in the lathe) and by using the set screws, is made to run dead true ( both ends) by adjusting the set screws in and out. Kind of like setting a double ended, 4 jaw chuck. It is protected from touching the barrel by shims made from a hard hack saw blade and they can be held in position with masking tape. When true, the jam nuts are set. They do not need to be overly tight. Then the steady rest is set in place on the center of the cat head. This way if a small chip or what ever runs through the contact points, it will scratch the cat head and not the barrel.
I know this sounds like Greek but it's one of those things that actually takes much longer to explain than to do. You do have to know how to read and run a dial indicator. One side benefit of this system is it fits all barrels, you do not need a different sleeve for each barrel and in the case that I have done several times, you can actually offset the barrel, say like if you want to fit a .22 rimfire barrel to a old single shot action that was in 25 or .32 rimfire. You first have to determine where that firing pin is actually striking, most I have seen are either at 6 o'clock or at 12 o'clock. Measure the needed off set and then with the cat head running true in the steady rest, you can turn the barrel extension to a correct fit.
Hope this make sense. If needed , send me a PM and I will send pics to your e-mail address.

sounds like genius! to me.

skimmerhead:drinks:

[Mooseman]

49086

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Thanks everybody, especially Reg and Mooseman for their efforts both explaining and providing me pictures. Now I just need to find somebody to implement the solution for me.

Best Regards,

Dave

[KCSO]

The Machinists Workshop had an article on that a few years ago and I will have to try and find it, if I can. I just used 3 bearing I got from the local Napa store and made everything to fit. I have the same lathe, mine was made in 1949 and still turns oout top notch work. My conversion was real simple I just drilled and tapped the rests and turned a stepped shank screw to hold the roller bearing in place. I think I tapped the shanks 8-32 and the step shanks were a press fit on the roller bearing. I can maybe take some pictures tomorrow.

[Mooseman]

Running a Blued barrel on rolling bearings even with oil WILL mar the surface and the blue finish. Any tooling pressure will add to the problem.
Roller bearings would be fine for just turning raw steel bar stock, stainless boat shafts , etc. but NOT blued gun barrels.

[Buckshot]

...............I think what you're looking for is something that would have to be made up specifically for his lathe. The base to sit on and clamped to his bed, and be 'On axis' with his spindle. It would be a spider or cat's head riding in 2 deep groove opposed ball bearings.

http://www.fototime.com/C2ADB8160C86E89/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/576796737D1670D/standard.jpg

The above is an offside spider I made for my lathe, that runs outboard of the spindle. You're wanting somthing like this only running contained in a steady type setup clamped to the bed. The spigot of the spider in the right hand photo would be carried by the opposed deep groove ball bearings contained in the steady. The barrel (or whatever) would be indicated to run zero/zero via the spider and would turn WITH the barrel and thus cause no marks.

..............Buckshot

[theperfessor]

I really love Buckshot's machine tool porn!

Seriously good machine work and great photos to boot.

[Mooseman]

...............I think what you're looking for is something that would have to be made up specifically for his lathe. The base to sit on and clamped to his bed, and be 'On axis' with his spindle. It would be a spider or cat's head riding in 2 deep groove opposed ball bearings.



The above is an offside spider I made for my lathe, that runs outboard of the spindle. You're wanting somthing like this only running contained in a steady type setup clamped to the bed. The spigot of the spider in the right hand photo would be carried by the opposed deep groove ball bearings contained in the steady. The barrel (or whatever) would be indicated to run zero/zero via the spider and would turn WITH the barrel and thus cause no marks.

..............Buckshot

Isnt that what I showed in Post #30 ???

Rich

[Buckshot]

Isnt that what I showed in Post #30 ???

Rich

.................Sure is, but I didn't see it :-) When I made my reply I didn't realize there was a 2nd page:groner:

...............Buckhot

[Mooseman]

Great Minds Think alike ! LOL

[theperfessor]

Mooseman, did you make the one in your post?

[MBTcustom]

I also made a live steady rest like mooseman has in post #24. However, I couldn't find a piece of aluminum that big that I could make into a live steady, and I wanted to be able to indicate that baby in exactly square, parallel, and perpendicular to the spindle of my machine, so I just made a bearing assembly that was just small enough to be held by the actual steady rest points. I just tightened the snot out of them and indicated the bearing in with a mag-base stuck on the chuck. It works like a charm! I made brass tips for the spider bolts, and tighten them on .005 copper shimstock.
I can crown a blued barrel and not leave a single mark. It's quick too.

I used super precision ABEC9 bearings. They are ceramic hybrids (ceramic balls, and steel races) made by Barden Bearing Co.
They are not sealed, so you would have to make an enclosed bearing assembly, but I can make a drawing for your friend to build off of, and I would cut you a really good deal on the other set of these that I have, if you would like to build something like that. It's time consuming, but the result is a spindle that runs in your steady rest that is capable of extreme accuracy that cannot be matched very easily. When the end of the barrel is held by the chuck, and that point is 20" from where this bearing rides, it makes it possible to get a lot better accuracy out of an old lathe. They don't even make lathe spindle bearings this accurate.
The only hitch would be if the bearings are too big to even fit into your steadyrest, in which case, you might want to look for a big block of aluminum to hold the bearing instead.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I totally concur with this approach of making a bearing assembly to ride in the steady rest.

I had never considered doing it but will build one for my own use as soon as I actually get an engine lathe. All I have right now are a Hardinge Chucker and DSM59 and a CNC Omniturn.

Always looking for the right small engine lathe to do barrel work on. But this contained bearing assembly for a steady rest is definately the best solution to this problem.

I have been storing used bearings for this type of job for years, but really for this type of work lesser bearings would be fine.

We only use the high end grade 7 and above bearings because they were used and free.

Nobody could afford them if you had to pay full pop.

Randy

[deltaenterprizes]

Here is a better picture to show a machinist what you want. You will need to know the maximum diameter the steady rest will accept and have the center hole bored to 1.5 inches should cover 99% of all barrels and slip over the sights . It also works on octagon barrels too.
Works on square stock too.
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/lathework/page12.htm
2 Top notch machinists here That I know here are Buckshot and JTKnives.
I am certain there are more.
Rich

That is how I made my spider,with brass screws, works great!

[Mooseman]

Mooseman, did you make the one in your post?

No sir...Another Machinist did.
We had one also that fit the thru hole in the head stock behind the chuck for long shafts, etc.
Some lathes you cant do that to.

[theperfessor]

I've made one that fits onto the outboard end of my lathe spindle. My lathe has about a 2-1/4"+ spindle bore so when I chambered and threaded a barrel I lined it up with a four jaw chuck and an outboard spider.

Never really thought about the problem of doing it with a steady rest on a small lathe.

[MBTcustom]

My lathe headstock is too long to get a barrel blank through, but I have way length to burn (8 feet worth) so the steadyrest is a very intuitive way to go.
Also, I would worry about what is going on in the middle of the headstock where I cannot see. When setting up a barrel in the steady rest, I noticed several times that the chuck jaws were inducing bend on the blank that caused the middle of the blank to have as much as .020 runout. I cant help wondering how you would see that if the blank were in the middle of the headstock (Of course, I have no experience doing it that way, so I don't know)
To combat this problem, I made a spider that I hold in the chuck as well with its own set of brass tipped set screws to contact the barrel. The result is, no more wobble in the middle of the barrel.

Before I made the live ball-bearing steady rest, I tried using a cathead and running the points on it. I found it to be very difficult to get perfect runout, and even if I wasn't so anal about aligning the bore, it still took a very long time to get it running true. Of course, I was trying to dial it in perfectly rather than getting it close and taking a skim pass to clean up the place where the points would run.
Either way works, but it's definitely less setup time with a live steadyrest.
YMMV

[Mooseman]

The Fastest way is to use your tailstock live center to center the barrel bore and then bring your cathead bolts to touch. Then use the dial indicator to fine 0 adjust , retracting the live center out of the way.

[unlimited]

Thanks guys for the information

[KCSO]

I too use a 9" South bend and I made a set of rollers for my steady rest but in the end I found that a plastic bushing made from PVC pipe worked just as good if not better than the rollers.