375 Winchester heavy hunting load?

[gpalma]

OK, have thoroughly searched the archives for .375 Win data and didn't find quite what I was looking for.

Here is my dilemma. I had my gunsmith put a Shilen select barrel on my Ruger #1 that follows the contour of the original factory barrel and then had it chambered in .375 Win.

Am reasonably certain that much of my shooting will be with the 220gr Hornady, but want a stomper for elk in the dark timber. A friend will be setting me up with some Lyman # 375449, a 264gr FN,GC that will be sized to my freebore dia to play with initially. These are 9:1 booolits.

I then will be going with the same bullet from Montana Bullets in the heat-treated series.

In your experience, what powder would you be looking closest at to get max velocity within reasonable pressures in this application? If I can achieve 2-3MOA accuracy, it will be more than I will ever need provided that I can get enough steam on this GC bullet for 100yd shooting. Also, is 2000fps or very close unreasonable to expect?

TYIA

[Rocky Raab]

THE powder for the 375 Win is Re-7. I never got even decent accuracy with mine using cast bullets at any speed over 1200 fps. With a bullet as heavy as you plan using, that might be about max anyway.

As a result, I used mostly jacketed bullets in mine. My elk load used the original Barnes 210 X bullet and 36.0 Rl-7 for an even 2000 fps from my 14" Contender. Actually, I used 36.0 with all bullets from 200 to 240 grains. One bullet you might look into is the Speer 235 semi-pointed. It was designed for reduced loads in the 375 H&H, and it works superbly in the Win. These are not for lever action guns, of course.

[Artful]

I liked H335, IMR-3031, W-748 but I was using a 240 grn copper tube jacketed cast bullet.

[dk17hmr]

Echo from Wyoming on using RL-7. I dont remember how much I put behind the 375449 for my 375 win but I got them moving upwards of 2100fps with hunting accuracy. My 375 win was a TC contender carbine barrel and had a post front sight and a peep rear sight. It sure stomped me but at 5.25 pounds that is kind of expected.

[runfiverun]

using the 375449 and aa-1680 starting along 34 grs and moving up a titch.
i settled on 35.5 it'll rattle your teeth, and i couldn't get my winchester to sight in any closer than 200 yds at poa.
the marlin's sights however thinks the load is factory specced to them.
it's within pressure though.
it would take 3-4 broadside elk to stop the boolit out to open sight distances.

[Doughty]

I had a Ruger #3 with #1 wood on it in the .375 Win. With the Lyman boolit, GCed and ready to load they were right at 280 grs. I liked AA2015 the best. Can't remember the exact powder weight, but 1900 fps gave the best accuracy.

[Bullshop]

All original factory 375 Win barrels including Savage, Ruger, Winchester, and Marlin used a 1/12" twist barrel. Kind of silly when you think of the factory bullet weight at 220gn.
Compair to the 38/55 that is vertually the same cartridge used a 1/18" twist for a heavier bullet. Why then did Winchester decide to use a 1/12" twist for the 375 Win?
My guess is because they didnt even consider twist rate and what effect it would have on performance of the cartridge. They just simply went with what had always been used in 375 caliber (not 38 caliber) and kept what H&H decided on in 1912 a 1/12" twist.
The H&H 375 was always intended for 300+gn bullets and so did need a steeper twist to handle those heavier bullets for both internal and external balistics. There was a time when 350gn bullets were readily available for the H&H version of 375.
If with your custom re-barrel you went with conventional wisdom and stayed with a 1/12" twist most likely with cast boolits in mind a better choice in twist rate could have been made.
There is a point I am trying to make with this historical run on and that is that in my own experiance which I would safely put in 1000s of rounds through all the afformentioned types of rifles I have noticed that heavy boolits 300 to 350gn seem to be easier to find good accurate ( less than 2 moa) loads than the more conventional weights (200 to 250gn). Not saying more accurate as I know better but saying possibly more efficiently compatable with a 1/12" twist so more flexable with loads.
This is the wisdom of but one man from his experiance viewed through his twisted sence of logic. Its worth what you paid for it. Or?

[rockrat]

Second Bullshop. My bull barreled bolt gun is actually chambered in 38/55 with a Shilen barrel. It shoots the BRP 310gr into about 3/4"@100yds. Caseful of Varget, slightly compressed. IIRC, velocity was around 1600fps
If no wind at the range (seldom happens though), I can hit a 7" x 7" steel gong @500yds, probably 80% of the time, with the rifle. My best was 5 for 5.

[Bullshop]

My pet load shoves a 350gn LBT/LFN to 1550 fps from most factory barrels.
I have had my fun with the 375 Win and now moved on to a 375 Whelen. Since switching have designed a 375gn boolit that works extremely well in the Whelen 375.
I feel quite certain if I still had a 375 Win I would have to try the heavier boolit and just as certain it would shoot well.
The problem is that at some point case volume will become an issue and going still heavier will give diminished balistics. 350gn is about there unless a long bore riding design is used with most of the weight out of the case.
When I designed my 375gn boolit using the program set up by Dan Lynch at Mountain Molds I used all the length the program would allow for a 1/12" twist.

[Bullshop]

For straight wall rifle cases IMR 4198, H4198, Scott 4197, and AA 2015 are hard to beat.
All are very close in burn rate and I believe Scott 4197 and AA 2015 are the same powder.
Yes I think 2000 fps is doable with the 280gn Lyman boolit but I would feel better if it was in a Ruger or Savage and not a Marlin or Winchester.

[gpalma]

Thank you for the replies and yes, the barrel is 1:12" twist rate. Shallow rifling by what I can gauge with my eyeballs and the throat is actually somewhat short.

Sat evening we played with this R #1 and found that a .379" booolit would fit the freebore with a very precision slip fit. Even though the groove dia is .3750", my friend is convinced that this larger booolit is generally better for accy with that freebore and to disregard the groove dia.

He loaded up a case that was ID sized using a .376" expander with a .379" Dia #375248 flat base in a 9+1 mix. Test load was 28.0/RL7 with a .060" polyurethane disc under the booolit. No pressure signs seen at all. Upon inspection, we could see black soot from the lube around the case mouth at each groove. Afterwards, we could take the gas-checked #375449 sized to .379" and it was a precision slip fit back into the fired case.

I have since loaded up some test loads to check out tomorrow from 36.0-39.0 RL7 with the 220 Hornady seated .025" off the lands. Once I settle on that load, I will switch gears next weekend to the .379" #375449 w/GC in the 9+1 alloy. Not sure what powder I will use yet, but have H4227 and RL7 on hand. May have to get another powder if somebody can offer some first-hand insight.

[2shot]

Not cast but I have been using the Hornady 225 grain spire point made for the 375 Steyr in my 375 Winchester Contender with great success and accuracy. It seemed like every time I wanted to order the 220 grain Hornady it was on back-order. Being a single shot I thought I would give this 225 grainer a chance and I'm glad I did. Accuracy has been outstanding and the expansion on deer has been good to with no bullets coming apart. If I were going to use a single shot 375 Winchester on elk I would use this bullet.

Accuracy has been 1.5-2 inch @ 100 yds. and velocity out of a 14 inch barrel has been aroung 1900fps using Reloader 7. I'm sure with your longer barrel and a great action in the Ruger #1 you would have no problem getting 2100-2200 fps with these bullets.

2shot

[TCTex]

I have to agree with what has been stated above, RL7 is "THE" powder for the 375 Win.


My pet load for my 14in Contender is a 220gr Hornady over RL7. One ragged hole...


My barrel will shot MOA with a 235gr Ranch Dog over RL7 at 2000. I may just be the lucky one that has a favorable barrel.


I have tried the Lyman 264gr out of my barrel with 2400 at 1600fps. My groups averaged 5-6in at 100 and kicked like a mule...

[runfiverun]

379 in the 375 is the size i use too.
the powders in the burn rate shown above are going to be the better choises.
i have some 4198 and some aa-2230 i'll be working with in the winchester some time [hopefully soon]
the reloading room is gonna be torn up shortly and re-vamped.

[Rocky Raab]

BTW, if anyone is interested in a 14" Contender barrel in .375 Win plus dies, scope and LOTS of brass and bullets, PM me. There's about 40 pounds of stuff involved.

[2shot]

If you haven't read it before here's a nice article on the 375 Winchester in a Contender.

www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t20/index.html

2shot

[Rocky Raab]

And, of course, mine...

375Win (http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/375%20Win.htm)

The barrel used in this article is the one I'm parting with, btw.)

[Bullshop]

379 in the 375 is the size i use too.
the powders in the burn rate shown above are going to be the better choises.
i have some 4198 and some aa-2230 i'll be working with in the winchester some time [hopefully soon]
the reloading room is gonna be torn up shortly and re-vamped.

Funny you should mention AA-2230. That is the powder used in my pet load with the 350gn LBT boolit.

[gpalma]

Finally gave it a test at 100yds with 220gr Hornady's. Started from 36.0 RL7 and worked up in 1/2 grain increments until I got to 1 full grain over max listed load. No pressure signs seen at all and I simply ran out of case capacity (the last two loads were very compressed). Recoil is very similar to a 30/30 Win. Groups 4-5-6 seem to be a good accy node with lots of steam for hunting. Had a fairly stiff breeze from 10 o'clock, but not quite as stiff as the breeze they are getting on the NE coast today.

#1-36.0gr - 1-15/16"
#2-36.5gr - 3/4"
#3-37.0gr - 1-7/8"
#4-37.5gr - 1-1/4"
#5-38.0gr (listed max) 1-5/16"
#6-38.5gr - 3/4"
#7-39.0gr - 2-1/8"

[2shot]

And, of course, mine...

375Win (http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/375%20Win.htm)

The barrel used in this article is the one I'm parting with, btw.)


Nice article there on the 375 Winchester Rocky!

2shot

[Rocky Raab]

Thanks.

[300 TC]

Just joined and don't know how to PM, but Rocky I would be interester. I think I can answer a PM.

[TCTex]

Howdy and Welcome Aboard 300 TC!!!


Left click on Rocky Raab's name.
When you do that a little pop-up box should appear.
My second option down is "send a private message to..."
Click on that option and you should be able to PM Rocky.


Duane


Ps, I like your user name... LOL

[Rocky Raab]

I sent a PM to 300TC.

[Pioneer2]

Winchester also made factory 250gr loads at one time..............Harold

[2shot]

Winchester also made factory 250gr loads at one time..............Harold

I wish they still did.

2shot

[Rocky Raab]

Yup, and they were awesome. I got some of my best groups with them (five-shot 3/4" cloverleafs). I still have almost a full box of them I was saving for elk.

[Bullshop]

Yup, and they were awesome. I got some of my best groups with them (five-shot 3/4" cloverleafs). I still have almost a full box of them I was saving for elk.

And that just proves my point.

[300 TC]

Local gun shop has one box of 250 gr Winchester for 39.95 might pick them up for trade material. What do you think?

[gpalma]

OK, did a quick test today using that 375449 bullet w/GC sized to .379" and it weighs 282gr ready to load with the 9+1 alloy. The lube that my friend used is something called MTL out of Butternut, WI.

My best grouping at the upper end came at 32.0/RL7 for 1931fps and a 1-1/2" cluster @ 100yds. Going up a grain opened the group considerably and it clocked 1991fps ave. A grain less (31.0/RL7) yielded a 2" group at 1864fps.

28.0gr shot real well (1" cluster) at 1744fps and 29.0/RL7 gave 1788fps with a very good cluster (1.5").

No pressure signs nor leading seen over the 30+ shots that I fired.

Am going to revisit that area of 31.0-32.0 grains to see if they will repeat their performance/accuracy. Not sure where I should go from that point other than decreasing bullet size to see if it will give better accuracy. Again, it's a .379" booolit in a .3750-.3755" groove barrel with a .3805-.3810" freebore diameter.

Any thoughts...??

[runfiverun]

you have allready bettered your expectations.
these aren't 400 yd hunting guns.
300 maybe.
but i'd look at the 31-32 gr area again too then just go with it.
and shoot some stuff.

[gpalma]

Actually, I haven't. The goal was 2000fps. I am close, but not quite there. Seem to be running out of case capacity before I see pressure using RL7 and the two bullets that I have tried. Am going to clock my 220 Hornady load today as it was too cloudy the other day and I did not have the IR lamps along so the chrono would see bullets. Will be interesting to see how fast that load is going.

Not sure if I will see more consistent accy with another powder or a slightly smaller diameter lead bullet or if I would be able to pump the velocity up. Those are the questions.

For me, this is a 150yd rifle at best (and mostly 75yds and in). It has plenty of "practical" accuracy now, but an anal type like me always wants better :)

[Doughty]

gpalma
I felt that there was not sufficent case capacity for the loads I wanted using the .375 Win case. I reamed mine out using a .30-40 Krag reamer and a .404 neck reamer. This gave me the capacity to push about any weight boolit at any velocity my shoulder can stand. I have two Ruger single shot rifles in this caliber. One has a 28" heavy octagonal barrel and weighs over 12 lbs. I shoot a 335 grain bullet at 2100 fps in this. The other is the original #3 that was .375 Win. In this lighter rifle I shoot a 300 grain PP boolit at 1900 fps. I use AA 2520 in both these rounds. On the other end I have a 180 grain boolit with some AA #5 for grouse and such. The Ruger #3 is my favorite western Montana hunting rifle.

Since you already have a custom barrel on your #1 you might consider something like this if you can't get what you want with the .375 Win case. You might make it there by just throating your existing chamber out so that you could seat your bullet out further, giving you more room for powder.

Good luck.

[gpalma]

Shot 5 rds across the chrono yesterday and onto paper at 200yds. 38.5/RL7, WLR and 220Horn yielded 2230fps with an ES of 8fps. Group measured 2.06" C-t-C. Had established a prior zero at 100yds that was 2-2.5" high and this group was 3" low of my hold at 200yds. Not sure I want to muck with that too much. It's also kind of a pussycat to shoot.

Now, to try and get the 375449 (282gr) with just a bit more steam, if it's possible at all. 1930fps may have to do, but better is nice :)

[mainiac]

Ive gone just over 2000 f.p.s. with re7 and 375449,and i still had a little room to spare,My gun is the marlin lever,and with the full throttle re7 load,the gun trys to loosen the fillins in ya teeth!
re7 is the only powder that i have found,that will get ya over 2000.

For pure accuracy,and the load ive settled on for hunting,is about 1800f.p.s.,,with the 375449,,and the powder is V-133. This load is amazingly accurate,,100% case full. The gun easily shoots under an inch groups@ 50 yards,with receiver sight.

[Rocky Raab]

Well, there might be something you can do at 2000 fps that you can't do at 1930...but I'll be damned if I can think of one.

[gpalma]

Well, there might be something you can do at 2000 fps that you can't do at 1930...but I'll be damned if I can think of one.


Obviously.

Constructively, what direction would one go given the circumstances/parameters to increase velocity and maintain accy? Shooting jacketed, I can and have held my place with some of the very best on the planet. But, cast bullets are virgin territory after 50yrs of trigger-jerking.

[gpalma]

Maniac, what performance are you seeing on medium to large game at that velocity within reasonable distances?

[Reverend Al]

My Winchester 375 Big Bore is an old one with a very early "BB" prefix serial number and it always shot best with the 250 grain bullets. Shame when they dropped that in the factory ammo and stayed with the 200 grainers. I loaded a bunch of Sierra 220's for mine with IMR4198 and had good results. Wanted to keep my carbine light and handy so it is fitted with a Williams receiver sight. These old models were a pain to side mount with a scope anyway, since mine is the old top ejector version rather than the newer "angle eject" model ...

[Doc Highwall]

I have a 10" Contender in 375 Winchester and with AA1680 powder I was able to shoot a Hornady 220 grain bullet 2074 fps. I forget the amount of powder, but the muzzle blast was bad.

[gpalma]

Now that I have settled 5 miles as the crow flies from the best shooting facility west of the Mississippi River it is time to play with my 375 once again.

The load for my 265 grain gas check bullet is pretty well settled as is the load for the 220 grain jacketed bullet. Now I am going to start on my quest to get a 230 grain, flat-base bullet (.379" dia) made by Badman Bullets to fly. This will be my general plinking and Javelina thumper. Am going to use H4895 with the bare boolit, starting at 21.0gr and work up to the point that leading becomes an issue or accuracy goes south. But, will also test with IMR3031 for a little stiffer load using a .060" poly disc under the bullet, hoping to get good 50-75yd accuracy in the 1700fps+ range. Will advise.

[Bullshop]

One very accurate boolit/load I have found that worked well in several different rifles that would qualify as a heavy hunting load is a 350gn LBT/LFN/GC at 1550 fps. I would have to go look up the powder/charge to be sure but going on memory I think the powder used was AA-2230

[gpalma]

To give you a point of reference, the throat on my #1 as chambered is such that as loaded with the Hornady 220, the OAL of the loaded round when touching the lands is 2.56 inches. If I seated another .10 inch, I could crimp in the cannelure. So it isn't a real long throat.

Have all of my trial run test ammo set to burn at 0800 tomorrow. Looking for accuracy first and if the velocity is there, so be it.

[gpalma]

Revisited the 265gr GC load with the same lot of R7. The difference this time was that one 5-shot string used the .379" bullet from Western Bullet. That grouped into 2" at 100yds and clocked 2017fps. The 265gr GC - .379" bullet from Montana Bullets clocked 1983fps and shot a group of the same size. (32.0/RL7, WLR primer)

To be quite fair, I am beginning to wonder if my CED chrono has not been running a bit fast lately. Velocities with other known or prior-tested loads seem to have gained some extra velocity as well. Going to have to check it against another chrono very soon.

The 230gr plain base .379" boolit from Badman Bullets was fired using H4895 and left a lot of unburnt powder in the case/barrel. SD/ED numbers were very high. 50yd accuracy was pretty consistently 1-1/4" for 5 shots, but I'm not overly happy other than group size, lack of lead fouling and very low recoil. 21.0-23.0 grains of H4895 in 1/2gr increments gave ave velocities of 1017, 1043, 1075, 1115 and 1138. This bullet was lightly crimped into the crimp groove.

What looked very good was that same 230gr, .379", flat-base Badman Bullet using IMR3031 and a .060" poly card under the bullet, seated at .02 from touching the lands. Badman claims they will see no leading with their alloy/lube to 1500fps, but the poly card under the bullet allowed me to run them quite a bit faster with no fouling seen. Tested 27-29.5gr in 1/2gr increments with 5-shot strings making very consistent 1-1/4" groups @ 50yds and the final group going into an inch at the highest charge. Ave velocities ran 1536, 1541, 1581, 1634, 1652 and 1669. My next range test will have this same bullet/wad combination and will go from 29-31gr or slightly more.

[gpalma]

Going to switch gears after some further reading and advice.

Looking at a simple UNIQUE load under the bare 230gr Badman Flat Base bullet, just as a plinker. Want a deadly "Big 22LR" load. The H4895 was just too disappointing regarding group size, SD/ES numbers and amount of unburnt powder in the barrel. Just went with what I had on the shelf at the time. The local shop in Phoenix bent me over for 37 bucks for a pound of UNIQUE, but at least he had it.

The deer hunting load will be worked up with that same 230gr bullet using the .060" poly card and Reloader 7 instead of the IMR3031. Have test loads made up from 28.5-31.0 grains in 1/2 grain increments. Will be interesting to see the accuracy and velocities attainable. :wink:

[pkie44]

Try H4198, if you can find it. Works good in my Winchester and Contender. :grin:

[gpalma]

OK, shot the 230gr .379" bullet (92/6/2) with 28.5-31.0 of RL-7 using the .060 LDPE wad under the base. Velocities ran 1818, 1857, 1872, 1890, 1919 and 1943fps. Leading began to appear about 4" forward of the throat and ran for about 2" at 29.5gr (1872fps), but it did not affect accy that I could see. 50yd 5-shot groups ran from 1/2" to as large as 1-5/16", the worst of which is adequate for deer inside 100yds.

The best pooch load with Unique and this bare bullet was 9.0gr yielding 1194fps with a ragged one hole group for 5 shots. 9.5gr averaged 1238fps with very acceptable accuracy and 14ES-5SD for ten shots! 10 grains showed leading and that's where I quit.

98082 98083 98084

[TXGunNut]

I've had good luck with Rx7 as well, behaves nicely under a 220 gr j-word as well as the heavier 375449. Not getting the groups you're getting but my old eyes are trying to learn to use peep sights.

[gpalma]

Yeah, am cheating here. Have a 1.75-6X VX-III mounted.

This slings the 220gr H-bullet real well with a stiff load of R7 as well as the 265gr cast bullet with a gas check. The latter puts out some 17 ft/lbs of recoil energy and talks to you pretty well during long bench sessions. Just needed to put together an accurate pooch load for 200yd standing practice and a hotrod 230gr flat base load for deer/javelina. That's all pretty well covered now. At some point I would like to get my buddy to cast up a little softer 250 & 265GC bullet (possibly a 20-1 mix) that will flatten out a bit more than the bullets I have right now. Then, it will be back to testing again.

[DGNY]

Thanks to gpalma and other contributors for a fine look at working up loads for this classic cartridge class.

Just as an aside, if all else were to fail, that 9 gr of Unique is pretty impressive for its accuracy and might just simulate a BP factory load from the 19th century! As well, somewhere in the video world there is a longer range 30-30 shooter who uses that charge with notable precision.

Thanks for the tutorial and the detailed results of your experimentation.

Regards,

Dyson

[gpalma]

Thanks DGNY, but I have a lot more questions than answers. Will be honest in my findings however. There is darned little hunting load data out there on the 375 Winchester and you must hunt around for what is there.

The Unique powder is pretty common from what I read for the 38/55 as a cowboy load. Everyone seems to get really good uniformity with 230-250gr bullets and stellar accuracy once they hit the right powder charge. In this Ruger #1, it seems to shoot really well with that Badman Bullet. Could I kill the average deer with it using that 1200 ft/sec load? I think that within 50yds it would blast straight through the ribcage if you waited for the classic broadside shot. Not sure that I'd trust it on forward quartering shots though. Javelina would be a piece of cake. For me it is strictly a target load to practice standing position at 200 yds.

[gpalma]

Am going to mention my sizing/loading procedure. For sizing, my expander is the .376/.380 expander from Buffalo Arms. Although my bore is precisely .3750/.3755 (Shilen Select barrel), we decided to go with a .379" bullet size because of the reamer used in my chamber. We kept putting hard bullets from .376" and larger (in .001" increments) into the throat until .380" would not fit easily into the freebore. We then loaded a .379" bullet (which did fit the freebore) into a case with a stout load, fired it and found that the same .379" bullet would fit back into the fired case with a very precision slip fit. It was felt that concentricity (chamber/freebore fit) was more critical than following the ".001" larger than bore size" norm.

That .376/.380 expander was used so that the .379" bullet would slide into the neck for precision alignment prior to seating. The cases, trimmed to equal length, could then be pressed against the side of the bullet at final seating. I made up a case for my Stoney point tool to gauge the throat with reasonable accuracy with a precision slip fit of the .379" bullet.

The .060" poly wad (.380" dia from Buffalo Arms) under the flat base bullet protects the base and allows heavier charges without loss of accuracy. After dumping the powder charge, it is just a matter of slipping the poly wad into the end of the case and seating the bullet directly on top. Care must be taken to not get a gap between the bullet and the wad, which is not an issue if you have fairly high load density.

[gpalma]

Fired 30rds at 100yds using the 230gr Badman Flat-Base Bullet sized at .379" and 9.0/Unique w/WLR primer. This is an 1194fps mouse fart load. Groups ran well under 2" C-t-C for 5 shots. This would have enough grunt to deck a Javelina at 50yds at any angle pretty easily. The 10-Ring of the SR-21 bullseye is 2.12 for reference.

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