thinking about quitin

[bryonbush]

well, today is really making me think. ive tried everything i can think of to not have leadding issues with any of my guns in .40. tried them water dropped, air cooled, sized and lubed with multiple lubes. it went from leading in the end of the barrel to heavy leading in the throught. then the lubing issues with the 40's as well are all adding up to making me want to throw in the towel for the 40. :cry:

[trying2learn]

What gun ? I am not sure as for loads but I know I have heard glock in some models will lead no matter what. Also have you slugged the barrel for actual size not just use generic store purchased sizes? I am sure other then my questions the much more knowledgeable ones here can get you fixed up. But that would be where I would start.

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[Doby45]

Sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do. There is a literal metric ton of info on loading the .40 with lead.

[ubetcha]

Have you tried different alloy hardness?Too soft or too hard can make a difference. I'm now just understanding what BHN I need in relation to chamber psi.I will be purchasing a Lee hardness tester in a few weeks and work my alloy to match my expected psi for a chosen powder

[DukeInFlorida]

I run my .40's as follows:

50-50 alloy (50% wheel weights, 50% pure lead)
air cooled
Sized .402
Lubed with either:
Xlox, thinned with mineral spirits on Lee boolits,
or
Carnauba red or my own Duke's Lube on regular grease groove type boolits
I load the rounds at about mid-range for cast boolits, using Lyman book for load data, per bullet weight/style. I like to use Titegroup powder for the .40.

I never have any leading issues. Have fired cast .40 boolits in Beretta and Sig barrels.

So, give us specifics for what you did. Maybe something will jump out.

[bryonbush]

i have 3 guns in 40 and im not trying to make a different sent of bullets for each gun. so i really do need a generic load to work for all 3 guns. im running an M&P, beretta 96, and XD. i may try not watter dropping one more time and go from there. im runnin Win 231 (seeing that a while ago i bought over 8 lbs of it) and tried loads from 4 to 6 grains.

[trying2learn]

I may be way off the mark with this since I sont load for 40 but I remember reading somewhere that titegroup is highly recommended for a 40 cal. Since it is fast and able to expand the back of the boolit faster to fill in the barrel. I have a mp 45 and haven't really had any issues in thatbwith leading. Might have a slight amount after a hundred or so but nothing to worry about. It is almost impossible to see it. I use unique in that and have tried titegroup but like unique better. Again I may be way off but I heard that about titegroup and was told it is in the top 5 preferred for the 40. I want to say it was my lgs when I mentioned wanting to try it in my 45.

Hopefully it is something simple and you can get past it.

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[runfiverun]

titegroup is really close to 231 in burn rate.
they probably even flip flop in some circmstances.

before i gave up on them all i would pick the one that done the best and work on it.
figure out a load and stuff for just the one gun.
shoot jaxketed in the others you won't be the only person on the board that uses them.
maybe revisit them later or not.

[bryonbush]

maybe ill give tite group or unique again see how that goes.

[fouronesix]

Well, been a long time since messing with high pressure/ high performance handgun calibers like the 9s and 40s. I load a lot for 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 38 SPL, 357, 45 LC and 45 ACP. With the 45 ACP coming closest to an application like the 9 or 40. I don't get leading to speak of in any of these including the 357 in a revolver or 45 ACP in a 1911. BUT I don't push any of them very fast or hard and stay with alloys in the 10-12 BHN range.

As a last resort and in a direction 180 degrees away from the conventional wisdom. And it won't hurt anything and won't take too much effort. You might try to re-think the cast bullet process in terms of Jbullets. Load only to groove diameter and no larger and go with a really hard alloy like linotype with a BHN up around 22 or even higher by adding some antimony up to maybe a BHN of 28. Then start at the suggested starting charge with one of the middle of the road powders like Unique. Oh, and don't over crimp! Use just enough crimp, maybe even a taper crimp, to keep the bullet from being jammed deeper into the case as the action cycles a round into the chamber.

[Idaho Mule]

416, that sounds like a little bit of knowledge learned from experience there and makes good sense to me. I most likely will consult you in the future on 32-20 information. JW

[reloader28]

Its just a thought, but I had the same trouble with a Glock 9mm.
I tried harder, softer, faster, slower, size up, size down, this powder, that powder. Everything I could think of. Since I dont buy condom bullets for pistols (and rarely for rifles anymore) I bought a 35PB check maker.

That made it very easy. It dont matter if its a hot or light load, it flat works for me. I figure that when we start on 40cal I'll buy one for that too after hearing all the problems.

Just something to think about if your desperate.

[geargnasher]

My own issues with shooting cast in the plastic .40s revolved entirely around the tooling. My standard reloading dies weren't suited to the needs of cast boolits without modifications. Once I fixed that and made the ammo fit, I can load mild to wild with pinpoint accuracy and no leading. My friend's XDM needed a throating job to fix shaving in the throat, others here have had the same issue.

Gear

[fouronesix]

416, that sounds like a little bit of knowledge learned from experience there and makes good sense to me. I most likely will consult you in the future on 32-20 information. JW

That's where it came from. The caution: there is a basic difference between loading for revolver versus loading for semi auto- IMO. As has been posted, another workaround for preventing leading in high performance semi autos is to add a gas check. But, gas checks in revolvers can be problematic in the lower pressure loads I like to work with. Plain base bullets avoid the problem of shedding the check in the bore- no matter the pressure and revolvers seem more prone to it than semi autos. I learned to avoid that potential no matter the pressure simply by not using gas checks for any handgun loading.

Oh ya, the 32-20 is one of those nice little rounds. I shoot 32-20 in both revolver and long gun. Lower pressure, plain base (311008) loads in the revolver and slightly higher performance, gas check (311316) loads in the long gun.

[buyobuyo]

You still haven't mentioned if you've slugged all or any of your barrels. If you're trying to find one load that will work in all of the guns, you need to slug all three barrels and size to fit the largest one. Then hope that it will chamber in all your guns. If not, you're stuck having to make unique loads for the gun(s) that don't fit the larger bullet or only shooting jacketed out of that one.

Also, what die set are you using? Have you pulled a loaded round apart to see if the bullet is being swaged smaller than groove size when seated? If the bullet is being swaged smaller, a Lyman M-die will fix that problem.

Finally, what are you using for lube and how are you sizing the bullets? Have you actually measured the sized bullets with a micrometer (not a set of calipers)? Are they coming out the right size? If not, you'll want to lap the die larger. Keep in mind that different alloys will size to slightly different sizes. A water dropped bullet may come out the right size but an air cooled bullet may come out too small.

[Gray Fox]

As mentioned above, most if not all die sets are designed for J-word boolits. My Dillon 9mm carbide dies, for example yield almost wasp waisted finished rounds with .357 boolits, but my RCBS carbide dies in a Dillon tool head produce nice looking rounds that don't seem to size the boolits as much. Consequently, they usually size down all but the hardest of boolits to a smaller diameter than intended. Because of the short cases tools like the M expanding dies for cast boolits won't work. Don't use a Lee factory crimp die as it really sizes the case and boolit down.

You might prowl around some of the sites that the .45 ACP guys frequent and see what they do. The old advise I followed for .45 was to shoot a hard boolit sized to .452 because of the shallow rifling in the old slab sided autos. Seemed to work OK. Hope these thoughts help. GF

[colt 357]

I do my .40 about as simple as I can get with no leading. I use range scrap water droped sized to .401 and loaded with 4.5 grains of unique. I also pan lube. I think most lube well work but I can give you my pan lube formula if you want it. I shoot them thought a taurus 24/7 pro. I was getting leading till the barrel broke in but not any since then. DONT GIVE UP

[popper]

I don't have trouble with my XD or PX4 in 40. PM me, I'm in the Dallas area, maybe I can help.

[gofastman]

WSF is magic in .40 target loads, from what i have found so far

[buyobuyo]

Because of the short cases tools like the M expanding dies for cast boolits won't work.

I'm not sure where you got this information from, but the Lyman M dies work great on short cases. I use them for both 9mm and 45ACP. The M dies come in two different body lengths, two different adjuster stem lengths and various expander diameters and lengths. You can buy the dies setup from Lyman or various online vendors already setup for specific calibers.

Check out this site for m-die dimensions: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

[popper]

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm Not sure if this chart is up to date. Mine is marked 40 and is .397. They also have a .41, not listed, don't know why the 2 entries for 10mm are so different.

[MBuechle]

I have an XD40 that I shoot mostly cast in with few to no leading issues. I had some early on, polished the bore with JB Bore Bright after cleaning and after a dozen cleanings the bore is like a mirror, that helped. Water dropped wheel weight works well, mostly because it doesn't swage down when seated. I'm in the process of making custom powder funnels for my 550B to open the case mouths of my 9mm & .40 to .001" under bullet size for loading cast and I think this'll solve the rest of my problems with the 9. With that, I think 50/50 WW/Pb will work well in both guns. I shot 15:1 125gr. HP's from a Mihec mold in the 9 with minimal leading even though the brass swaged these soft bullets to well under bore size. You should look into the Lyman M-die as I think this is part of your problem. Also, know your bore size. HP-38 (W231) works very well in both my guns as does Power Pistol & Blue Dot.

[prs]

Some barrels have virtually no lead into the rifeling, almost a sharp edged step down. That is going to scrape lead boolits and cause leading. My Wolf barrel for my 23 Glock could use some pistol smithing in that regard. But if that is OK, the next biggie seems to be how the tough 40 brass sizes down our boolits. I think an internal size die of adequate diameter to fit lead boolits is a key factor. M dies are available that fit. Hard alloy boolits may reist that downsizing better, but they can also resist obturation and leading occurs again.

prs

[runfiverun]

there are several different 40 cals.
the 401 for the S&W pistol round and for the 38-40.
a 408 for a weird winchester caliber
a 410 ish for the old 40 cal black powder rifles.
411-12 for the 41 mag and 401 power mag.
and even the 416 size for the 416 rem's
the 405 winchester fit in there somewhere depending on who cut what.

[bryonbush]

this is going to get winded but here we go. found the post from a year or so ago about the XD barrell. inside the grooves its .391, outside of the groves it was .400 and the cast bullet itself is .402.(that was before i was sizing them to 401) as for the beretta and M&P, no slugging yet. when i first started reloading and casting i was using the Lee 401-175-TC, Non sized and Alox coated and shooting out of a SW Sigma with no issues at all. then i do the same thing out of the XD and it leads horribly. then i started sizing and bought a Star. i was sizing my .403 cast bullets to 401 and lubing with my homemade edition of Saco Green.works great in the 45's not so much in the 40. the leadding i was getting at that point was near the end and middle of the barrell. i posted on here and was turned on to Randyrats TAC1 lube. this helped in one area as i no longer had leading in the middle/end of the barrel but not its right away in the front. i thought this might be a fluke in my MP so tried the loads in the Beretta and same results. im using Lee carbide dies and no factory crimp. im going to try to slug some barrels tonight and ill pull a bullet before church and post the results.

[bryonbush]

just pulled a bullet and found the bullet to be at .400. so then i got curious and checked a few other sized bullets that werent loaded and pulled and they too were right at .400. im using a lathesmith die thats .401. im wondering if opening up the sizing die a tad so its closer to .401 may help. but ill slug the other two barrels before i do that.

[popper]

You need an EXPANDER that gives the correct size. You could open the sizer up, but that is not the real problem. The sizer won't correct cases that are SMALLER than the sizer, + case wall thickness is not consistent. Or you can go to a harder alloy that will size the case. As to the comment about too hard to bump up, if the sized CB is larger than the largest point in the groove, what is there to bump up?

[geargnasher]

You need an EXPANDER that gives the correct size. You could open the sizer up, but that is not the real problem. The sizer won't correct cases that are SMALLER than the sizer, + case wall thickness is not consistent. Or you can go to a harder alloy that will size the case. As to the comment about too hard to bump up, if the sized CB is larger than the largest point in the groove, what is there to bump up?

Yup, tooling. The Lee PTE spud is a joke in the .40 S&W/10mm Auto die set. It's about half as long as it needs to be and about six thousandths too small for .402" boolits and that hard, tough brass.

THIS is why my .40's don't lead: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93108

Gear

[Doby45]

THIS is why my .40's don't lead: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=93108

Gear

Spoken for truth. No problems what so ever in my .40 loads with leading.