Ongoing 9mm questions

[Jal5]

So far I have the Lee 358105 SWC and the RCBS 09115 RN running ok in the S&W 9mm M&P Shield as far as the gun functioning. But the accuracy even at 6-7 yds isn't the greatest. I pretty consistently shoot left and 8 o'clock which is probably my shooting form that needs work. But the accuracy even at that isn't great with either of these boolits using Bullseye. I just started trying out Unique on the 09115 and have some more testing to do with that powder.

I am not sure how to proceed in the quest for a more accurate load, I know enough not to change everything at once! But where might I get the most postive result from changing just one thing? I don't have my notes in front of me, but I know that the OAL for the 09115 boolit was 1.124, I was thinking about reducing that a little leaving the BE load the same. This load is less than max with BE. Or is there a better way to approach it?

Joe

[454PB]

What diameter?

A common mistake with cast in 9mm is sizing too small. I size to .357" for all my 9mm's.

[Jal5]

Sized to .357 for both boolit types works well in this gun. .358 as cast was too big for correct functioning.
Joe

[dnmccoy]

I just ordered one of the Lee 9mm 356-125-2R #90309, is that not going to work for my 9mm? Or should I just make sure to size it to .357? Its got the regular lube band, not the tumble lube

[GRUMPA]

Personally I think it's a sizing issue that happens when the boolit is seated into the case itself. Without really knowing for sure if you don't do this give it a try and see what happens. When you expand and flare out the case mouth try it with a 357 expander, have you ever put in a boolit in a dummy case and popped it out to find out if your squeezing the diameter smaller? This happens a lot with those rounds.

[runfiverun]

it's not a leading issue it's an accuracy issue.
low left indicates trigger control issues.
or that your hands are way too big for the grip.
or that you are looking at the target waiting for the boolit hole.

or maybe a gun issue i had a taurus that kept shooting lower and more right as i worked through a magazine.
i would be aiming a foot left and almost a foot high by the end of the magazine,to knock down steel plates at 25 yds.

[Jal5]

I know I need to work on trigger control more since the POI happens with both my BOOLITS and factory rounds. But accuracy in terms of decent groups is not there even considering the low left POI. I can post a pic of the best group later.

[runfiverun]

the oal is a good place to start.
i would try both directions,make some as long as possible versus your normal load,and some a bit shorter.
you will have a clear indication of which is best in one group.
then work on the powder from there.

[Jal5]

Thanks will modify the OAL and let you know.
should I reduce the powder amount though as I make the OAL shorter and by what amount?

[fcvan]

I would like to know how the gun shot with factory ammo. Last spring, I picked up a Taurus 709 Slim and it shot low left. It was not a control issue, the gun was off. Some research online indicated there was a production run where something was out of spec. I sent it back to the factory and they replaced the slide and made some other adjustments, test fired the weapon, and sent me the target with the gun. I think the gun was out and back in 5 weeks and I'm happy with how it shoots.

As far as loads, I started out using the Lee 356-125 2R which casts .358 and weighs 125 with my alloy, mostly range scrap. I size to .358 and shoots well in my Taurus, a S&W 639, several Glocks (22 and 23s with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrels) Ruger SR9s, an old German P08, and a Marlin Camp Carbine. When sized to .358 they shoot great. When sized to .357 they keyholed at 10 yards, and patterned like buckshot.

I use Lee dies and expand the case mouth to where the base of the boolit fits easily into the mouth. 25 years ago, I started out expanding the mouth to where the case sometimes shaved the boolit. Accuracy sucked and loading was a pain. I am going to have a machinist friend cut me a proper expander as described in one of the stickies from this site.

Although I mostly use the 1252R for 9mm, I also have several other molds. The first one I bought was a Lee 358-105 SWC. I actually bought this for a .380 but also loaded it for 9mm. Mine casts at .359 (I size to .358) and weighs 108 grains. It shoots well in the .380 and 9mm. I bought the Lee 356-102 1R which casts .358 weighing 105 grains. Only recently have I started loading some of these in 9mm as it was my got-to .380 boolit. More on this later. The last mold I bought was the Lee 356-120 TC which casts at.358 and weighs 125 grains. The Taurus loves this boolit.

So, I cast and size at .358, I set my seat and crimp on a factory round, and run them with 5 grains of Unique. Alliance says you can run the 125 grain lead boolit higher than that but I pretty much stick with that charge. The Taurus is new and the barrel is as yet unseasoned. I've got about 500 rounds through it thus far and it is shaping up. None of my other barrels have seen jacketed bullets and I don't recall any substantial leading. For years, I lubed with Javelina, made my own loob for a while, and now am using Lars BAC.

Of late, I am trying every mold listed above with plain based gas checks made with a PatMarlins Checkmaker. I've run the loads higher than 5 grains but under listed max from Alliance. The Taurus loved the 102 1R and shot as well as the 120TC. Every load tried with PB gas checks shoot measurably better than plain lead. The bores are obviously lead free. I plan to run about 500 rounds through the Taurus and then shoot some plain lead to see if the checked boolits help season the barrel.

I would love to order a TC mold that was around 145 grains with a flat nose and about 135 with a hollow point. I think that boolit would be a great shooter through the carbine as a subsonic round. The 125 RN shoots very well with 5 grains and is already very quiet without any form of suppressor. A little heavier boolit a 100 fps slower might be a good performer. Frank

[Blammer]

I would put it in a ransom rest and shoot some "known" accurate ammo.

Or at least put it in sand bags and try for accuracy with KNOWN ammo, this could be factory stuff.

After you have determined it is NOT the firearm, then I'd try something else.

[40Super]

Have you used a rest,or rabbit ear sandbag,to eliminate your input. I never test a load relying on me to be solid. Until you eliminate that, I wouldn't do anything to the loads. If your pushing left ,it's doubtful you push the exact same amount every time, with a pistol,very minor movements add up to inches.

[chris in va]

My new 356-125-2r mold drops at 360, so sizing it back down to 357 won't be a problem.

BTW my CZ P01 was shooting left groups off bags and determined the rear sight needed tweaking a bit. The workers at the factory just ballpark the position it should be at.

[Jal5]

As far as known ammo, factory ammo, I shot off sand bags Winchester White box 115 gr slightly low and left but a nice small group. I also shot a similar sized group low left with Berrys 115 gr over Bullseye. So I know I have a grip and trigger pull problem with this gun and am just getting used to it after about 200 rounds. I may try adjusting the rear sight a little to move POI onto the stick on target.

But the groups with my boolits over bullseye are larger and that is what I want to correct. I think its an issue with my rounds. I have settled on 4.3 BE for the 09115RN sized .357 and BAC lube seated to the crimp groove at 1.124 OAL and the 358105 over 3.6 BE sized .357lubed twice with 45-45-10 1.050 seated. These are the reloads I am trying to improve.

I have to check a dummy round and see if the brass is swaging the boolit at all, will do it this weekend.

Joe

[MtGun44]

"group larger than I am used to" - like what at what range??? Compare to factory ammo
shot at the same time, same support condition. Numbers will help a lot.

If the normal is 1" at 15 yds and you are now getting 2" at 15 yds, maybe the issues are
fine tuning the load. If you are normally getting 2" at 25 yds and now
are getting 6" at 25 yds, then I'd suspect boolit diameter, powder charge, LOA or lube issues.
Frankly, tumble lube in 9mm has been a 'frequent flier' in our problems with 9mm boolits.
Maybe even hardness, although this is usually less of a factor. Crimp can be an issue,
as can be mixed brass. Are you shooting all the same headstamp brass? Have you
seated and crimped a boolit and then pulled it an verified diameter? I'd try normal
lube like NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue with a conventional design as a control. I do not
trust TL designs or mule snot, we see so many problems - even though people absolutely
do make it work.

This is a small gun and difficult to shoot consistently, so using a rest and comparing to what
you can do with factory is necessary for proper evaluation, and it sounds like you have done
that with the factory ammo and Berry's reloads - not certain you are doing it with the new
loads.



Bill

[40Super]

I don't believe you have said whether you are getting ant leading or such in your barrel with them. That could wittle down some potential reasons. Other thing is simply that maybe your gun just doesn't like the small lead projectiles. It may shoot plated and jacketed fine but leads a different animal. Do you have access to some 124/125 or even 147gr, just for some comparisons, or S*** & Giggles.

[Jal5]

Very slight leading at the end of barrel.
Using Win brass for all trials.
I will post some pics of targets tomorrow. So you can see the groups. All were shot at 6yds. By my paces.

Definitely have used sandbag for the tests on factory ammo then tested my reloads without bags plus more factory ammo without bags.

[MtGun44]

Leading at the end of the barrel is running out of lube. TL is marginal in all
situations, try some real lube. If you are running out of lube just at the release
point, this can't do anything good for accy.

Bill

[Jal5]

I was using some Darr lube on the 09115 boolit and TL for the 358105.
I recently switched to the BAC lube for the 09115 and that seems to work better.
That TL on the 358105 seems to be the source of the leading at the end of the barrel.

[MtGun44]

TL the culprit in 9mm again.

It's not a new story.

Good luck - it is eminently doable to shoot cast in 9mms with good accy and without
leading.

Bill

[Jal5]

Here are two groups shot with 09115 and 358105. unfortunately I didn't keep the target with the WWBox 115gr factory loads but I remember it be low and left about 8 o'clock. The low left is my issue with getting used to this grip, etc. but that can be worked out with more practice.
The load info is in an earlier post on this thread.

Joe

[40Super]

The 105gr looks good for that small gun, the 115 is good also just that one low guy. Was that you or a ligit flier?

[Jal5]

It probably was me still getting used to the trigger and sight picture. These were at 5-6yds

[Jal5]

I learned something today. The before and after loading size of the boolit (09115RN) shrunk from .357 to .355, I should have pulled one of these long ago. I then tried another of the same boolits and expanded the case using a 38 S&W expander plug. '
When I pulled that one the boolit stayed at .357 size.

Shooting boolits that stay at the .357 size should help with accuracy and eliminate the little bit of leading that the other ones caused.

[40Super]

It should help BIG time !!

[MtGun44]

You found the problem.

Bill