The First in Modern Times - Fully Loaded 9.5X47R Rounds

[John Boy]

For the First Time on the Internet
Fully Loaded 9.5X47R Loaded Rounds :)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1507.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1508.jpg
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1509.jpg

Details:
* Bertram 9.5X47R Head Stamped Brass
(Annealed - Chamfered ID and OD)
* Accurate Mold Bullets - 210.gr
* Primer - CCI BR2
* Powder - 46gr KIK FFg, lot 2010 ... filled to 1/2 of neck length and vibrated to settle
* Compression - 0.01
* Loaded rounds seated perfectly in chamber
* Head space - Zero with closed action

Preparation of rounds had one glitch: the CH4D seating die plug put a ring on the bullet nose. So ... filled the plug cavity with Hot Glue and while warm turned the bullet nose into the glue - Perfect Fix!

Next objective - Range Test ...
Now, need advice for a smokeless reload using this bottle neck case - case capacity, 56.98 gr water volume and the 210gr bullet? Only loading data source anywhere is in Donnelley's Cartridge Conversion Handbook by the author:
175gr Lead - 25.5gr IMR 3031

[dragonrider]

Very nice indeed, love them long necks. what are you shootin them in???

[hiram]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=115918

[John Boy]

Dragonrider - Hiram:
The rifle is a Martini action German Schuetzen rifle, fully engraved, carved with 20 point checkering made by M. Gruny... Maximillium Gruny, Inglestadt, Bavaria. Production date is unknown. The rifle is drop dead gorgeous ...
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1341973264

Hiram - thanks for the link, didn't know the 9.5X47R was discussed anywhere on the Internet.

I too read in COTW and Donnelly's Cartridge Conversion Handbook that the bullet is 175grs. Don't know where either of these sources came from because I was provided with a scanned page from a 1914 German Bullet Catalog. The 9.5x47R bullet listed in the catalog is 210gr and all dimensions of the bullet are listed. It is a 374 round nose, stop ring bullet.

From the German catalog, the 9.5 bullet was diagrammed to my rifle's chamber cast being 375 at the breech tapering to 371 at the muzzle. The diagram was sent to Tom at Accurate Molds and is now a standard mold in his catalog with a metplat because his CNC doesn't have the extra software for round nose bullets ...
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-210R-D.png

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1499.jpg

I ordered the mold in 1:20 and the bullets dropped at 375 base - 210grs - a 380 stop ring ...perfect fit for my rifle's chamber cast
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/IMGP1505.jpg

[dragonrider]

Very nice.

[John Boy]

First Range Test Today

Loaded only 20 cases with 46gr KIK FFg because I wasn't sure how the load would perform and off to the range. Set up the target at 100yds and then ran 5 rounds over the chronograph:

Avg Fps = 1334
Standard deviation = 3.9 :)
Then starting getting 100yd settings. After fiddling with elevation and windage got a 3 shot group in the 8 ring @ 3:00 that was 0.490 x 0.400. Evidence that the rifle can shoot - again pleased! Next range visit will be to adjust the windage and see how the rounds do at 200 and 300.

Familiar with the concept of NORM calibers? Well, do believe the Bertram brass are NORM brass but after fire forming they weren't Norm
Here's a comparison picture of new Bertram's and M Gruny chamber fire cases ...

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Martini%20Schuetzen%20Rifle/DSC00643.jpg
PS: Camera angle makes the case mouths look like a pitcher spout

Note the excessive BP blow back almost half way back the case to the shoulder. The brass is annealed, excessive evidence that the mouth was not sealing to the chamber wall possibly due to 1st fire forming - no case crimp or not enough pressure from the powder charge. Compare the shoulders on the Bertram & fired cases. Less neck - shoulder angle softer and the shoulder set back further. But the rounds shot accurately!

Not knowing the production date on this rifle, I'm guessing it was made previous to the caliber Standardization Conference in Germany. Exactly when is ? but pre 1909 is my guess thanks to Biggi's post on the ASSRA forum

The normalization was decided in 1909 in October, at a conference at Erfurt (Thuringia).

[Lead pot]

John that is the nature of the Bertram beast. I don't know what it is with that brass but it is very hard stuff and I found that it does not hurt the brass if when annealing to get it red.
I used some of that brass I had left from the .45-3.25 to form some .44-100 Rem st and I had to heat the whole case to keep it from cracking length wise. Granted it is 15 or 18 year old brass but it is very hard stuff.

[PS Paul]

Just plain gorgeous. All of it.

[John Boy]

... is the nature of the Bertram beast. I don't know what it is with that brass but it is very hard stuff and I found that it does not hurt the brass if when annealing to get it red. Lead pot this is my 1st experience with Bertram brass and I have the last 80 pieces of 9.5's available from anyone at a average cost of $3.60 a case - 288 bucks! I'm going to need some advice to keep life in these cases ...

The COL of 9.5's is 1.850 and the Bertram's were 1.850 to 1.855. The 20 fireformed cases just came out of the tumbler. I measure a few and they are 1.845. That's an indication of soft brass? and means FL sizing after each reloading with I don't like to do. Just the neck so the expander die puts the proper tension on the bullet.

Accordingly, to minimize work hardening, 'frequent' annealing at the normal temperature of 650 degrees will be necessary? And how to reduce the COL shrinkage for each firing? The chamber has a long leade and shooting them at 1.845 or less is going to reduce accuracy. Options?

[Lead pot]

The thing you have to watch with the long tapered lead that might be from 3 degrees to 7 or 8 degrees shooting a GG bullet that is slightly over groove diameter with a soft annealed case that is held by to much neck tension. This has the tendency to pull the neck from the tight friction the soft bullet will have, this will pull the case neck past the chamber end up into the throat something the 45 degree end will help hold back. I always felt that is were the steeper chamber end started to come about when the GG and jacketed bullets came more in use to keep the necks from getting pulled into the throat.

Keep th case neck tension down and you will do fine, and dont push the shoulder back if you size the brass.

[martinibelgian]

FWIW,

My 577-450 reloads using CBC 24-gauge basic brass can be annealed so soft that just expanding will collapse the case, but still give me quite serious powder blowpack - with BP. And that's not only the CBC stuff, Jamison, Bertram and Kynoch will also do it. I guess it' s just the nature of the chamber. It is pretty generous.... Still, it won' affect accuracy.

[Lead pot]

Gert.

What do you think is the cause? that the long necked chambers? .

All of my .44 bottle necked rifles dont have that sort of blow by. I have tight and loose chambers but the neck is not as long as the 577/450 or John's but I do anneal after three rounds fired in those and I dont size my BN brass.

[John Boy]

Lead pot - you mentioned previously that Bertram brass is hard ...
* Annealed Winchester 30-30 cases - 10 to 12 turns needed to remove the brass to OD chamfer the mouths
* These annealed Bertram 9.5's - 3 to 4 turns to OD chamfer the mouths
Was really surprised with the difference needed without exerting hard pressure

I'm going to shoot the cases a few more times after FL sizing them back to 1.85 to see if the shrinking decreases

[Lead pot]

John.

Maybe it has changed. like I said it's been 15 or 18 years since I used it last.
Maybe they changed to the best.

[enfield]

they dont have that annealed "look" to them. you sure they got hot enuff ? looks like blow back on the necks. just sayin.

[martinibelgian]

Kurt,

Good question - I was thinking brass too hard, but now I got it so soft that expanding or seating a bullet can cause a collapse, so I know that's not the reason. Of course, a 577-450 military chamber originally was made for rolled brass, hence VERY generous. I only necksize (cannot seat the bullet into the rifling, the throat is too long) these cases. I'm using a load of about 85grs of Fg which only partially fills the case, so low pressure might also have something to do with it
My #2 Musket military rifle also suffers from it, but then I'm shooting converted 470 NE brass, trimmed and not neck-turned, so there the issue would be neck thickness, I believe.
My match rifle in #2 Musket doesn't do it, and it has a very tight chamber, I have to neckturn my brass for it.

[Lead pot]

Gert.

You would think brass that soft would hold the gas back. The 577-450 is no anemic cartridge. Must be something else in play there.

My .44-90bn's and the .44-77 I never see this. Carbon will show up after several hours just around the case mouth if I dont get the blow tube inserted all the way in and a little moisture is at the chamber end but that is it.

The .44-100 Remington Straight will get a little blow back and also the .45/2.4 if I dont anneal after several shots with out keeping them soft.

I been looking for a Martini and seen a few decent but :holysheep I think I'm looking 30 years to late from what they have for a price tag on them.

[martinibelgian]

Kurt, what are you looking for? Sporter? Military? Military can still be found pretty cheap, sporters are a different breed entirely... They are getting more expensive indeed. Still, it should be possible to find a decent Martini sporter at around 1,000,- I know I paid less for mine :-)

[Lead pot]

Gert

I'm looking for a clean Military. I looked at two last weekend and they were tough. Metal was brown with shallow pits and the bore were dark, very rough. One was 500 the other 750.
I want to add it to the mid 1800's military cartridge collection collection I'm starting.

[I'll Make Mine]

You might change from Fg to FFg -- you'll get a faster burn and higher pressure, which should do a better job of obturating the case. You should also add a granular filler (corn meal, Cream of Wheat, etc.) to remove any air space -- don't need to compress much, but a tiny bit of compression (when seating the bullet) insures against the bullet acting like a bore obstruction and possibly ringing the chamber or throat. A full case is also much less prone to collapse when you seat...

[martinibelgian]

Granular fillers and BN's - forget about it, that stuff acts like a solid under pressure, it will up the pressure for sure when being forced through the shoulder portion, uncontrollably. Leads to case neck lengthening and neck separations. Definitely not a good idea in 577-450.

Kurt, try IMA for a military rifle - they have a hand-select option where you can specify how you want it, usually the Mk IV's are the best ones condition-wise (cheapest too). Or you could go to the annual IMA warehouse visit organised by BMF, and pick out your own rifle... This is Nepal cache stuff, but all 'normal' martini's are Brit-made. Stay clear of their Francotte if your want a quality rifle though, those aren't good for shooting.

[Lead pot]

TNX, Gert I will take your advice. You probably know more about the Martini's then any one on here.

[mtnman31]

Matrinibelgian is correct. See my post and photo below on what can happen if you use a granular filler in a bottleneck case.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=156824

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Martini_Henry_Cases.JPG

[Lead pot]

Man, how many times have I said that :-| about fillers in a blk powder cartridge :?

Below are some .44-90 BN I shot using PP bullets with out the use of a lube wad to keep the case neck wall lubed so the dry bullet and wad does not pull the neck with it. The one on the far left got pulled into the throat but did not seperate.
50% failure is not good!

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0431.jpg

[mooko]

John Boy;

I have an 1870 Mauser single shot converted from military in Suhl, Germany. I have seen one other pictured on the internet at an auction site. My wife bought it for me in the early '70's from Turner Kirkland at Dixie Gun Works. After doing nothing with it for ten years, I formed brass with numerous steps from 45-70 cases. They were a bit small at the base, but they worked well. Fir bullets, I used an antique Winchester mold for a 255 gr. 38-55 bullet. It puts out a bullet that is 0.379" and 255 gr. For powder charge, I went to the old, old Lyman manual from the '60's and used loads for the 38-55. Case capacity in similar. My current load is 21 gr/ IMR 4759. It works great and turns in about 1900 fps. Very accurate since I have finally found official dies and brass.

[Reverend Al]

Very nice! I have 2 single shot rifles in 9.5x47R. One is a bolt action 1871 Mauser action based Schuetzen target rifle that is quite plain, but still very elegant. The second is a beautiful break action sporter hunting rifle with some nicely figured wood and high quality engraving that was made in Dresden. (Why someone would chamber a hunting sporter rifle in a Schuetzen target cartridge eludes me, but maybe he had several target rifles in the same calibre just really liked the cartridge?) I need to get them out and shoot them a bit again, but just been too busy with family and too many other projects ...

:sad:

[Jim Trahan]

Hello John I have had this Schuetzen rifle for a few years now, and I can not find ammo for it. It is a 9.5 x 47R do You any one who will sell me some ammo? If you know some one let me know. My name is Jim Trahan I live in Ocala, Florida. Phone number is 1-352-694-5125. Thank You Jim Hope to here for You. email jtrahan3@embarqmail.com. Thanks Again. Jim