Rebore, rebarrel, or replace?

[MikeS]

Hi All.

Now that the black powder bug has bitten, I was wondering, I have a Winchester 94 (fairly new, but pre angle eject) that's a trapper model with a 16" barrel chambered in 30-30. I was thinking I might like a gun chambered in 38-55 better, so I was wondering if I'm better off reboring this rifle, or rebarreling it, or just replacing it all together? Generally how expensive is it to have a barrel rebored to another caliber? I'm kind of thinking maybe I should just trade this rifle for one in 38-55 or some other BP caliber, rather than messing with this one, as 16" is kind of short for a BP rifle, isn't it?

[Old-Win]

I would swap it off for one with a longer barrel. 24-26" will give you a better sight radius.
Bob

[rockrat]

JES reboring will charge $225 IIRC

[bigted]

if that '94' is stock and came from the factory with a 16 inch barel then i would check on the collectors value before doing anything...as i understand those short barreled '94's are kinda rare to find.

[MikeS]

Yup, this one came from the factory with the short barrel. The only thing that's been changed on it is the addition of a Williams peep sight. The barrel says it was made in New Haven Conn and also says Winchester Proof Steel. Where would I check it's value? I still think of it as a new gun, even tho it's possibly 30 years old or older (I think it's from the 1970's, but I could be wrong. Is there a website where I can find out how old it is from it's serial number? It's in almost like new condition, and as far as I can remember it's had less than 100 rounds thru it, and half of those or more were cast boolit loads.

[fouronesix]

I may be suffering CRS or old age but I think the angle ejects came along well after the 70s. No matter. I just looked in a Blue Book that's a few years old and the 16" trapper model 94s were valued at: 100% $330, 95% $200. I think it safe to say those values have gone up some amount?

Given that it is still all factory, my inclination would be to sell it then look for a 38-55.
Gunbroker is a huge market and as good a place as any to look to see what comparable guns are going for. Asking or opening amounts are different from what something sells for. It may take some watching of auction outcomes to get a "feel" for market value. A current Blue Book will also give a price guideline. It doesn't have a great deal of collector value since it is post 64 but still many folks will buy an all factory gun before they will buy a messed with gun- so it still should have some demand. Currently that type gun has some appeal even though it is middle of deer season and almost too late to hit the peak deer hunting market. But, Christmas is coming up- so who knows.

[bob208]

with new 94's in 38-55. i would keep it just the way it is. also reboring it to .38-55 with a 16" barrel would not gain much if anything.

here is an option with post 94's running on the cheap side. i would pick one up. convert it to take down. then you can add barrels of different calabers and lengths with ease.

[MikeS]

I think I'll just leave it as it is. I still have lots of work to do on my rolling block, and probably shouldn't try and get into to many projects at one time. But I am curious, I know that the 30-30 was designed as a smokeless cartridge, but is there any reason I couldn't load it with BP? It might not be as much fun as a 45-70, but it'll be more fun than shooting it with smokeless.

[bigted]

mike...no reasson at all to not load it with bp. just ensure that there is no air pockets under the boolit between the boolit n the powder. i have crammed as much bp as i could in my pre 64...[1956 era]...375 H&H...what fun!!! i droptubed the huge case to the top of the case rim with powder and used my 375 compression die to compress it to the bottom of the neck so i could seat my boolit...what fun and addictive as heck. however this is a downside...the small bores clog with fouling very fast...i had to swab every three shots for any semblance of accuracy.

go for it and know you wont be the first to stuff an old thudy thudy with the black stuff and let fly.

[starmac]

I had a friend that was using black powder in his 30/30 back in the late 70's to shoot coons with. It did less hide damage than the faster 22 centerfires or even store bought ammo.

[MikeS]

Would I be better off using FFFg in it considering it's relatively small case? considering that most 30 cal boolit designs are for smokeless, should I choose a fairly light weight boolit (say like the 3118) and add a grease cookie behind it? Or would the traditional 30-30 boolit like the 31141 hold enough lube without a cookie. Or maybe a Loverin style boolit with all of it's lube filled be a better choice? Looks like I've got some experimenting to do! :)

['74 sharps]

I would leave the rifle alone and save up for a single shot for bp shooting. Easier to clean, and something like a used Pedersoli '74 or Highwall would be the authentic bp
experience. Those type rifles are like potato chips, no one has only one.......

[MikeS]

74, I already have an authentic BP rifle, an old spanish rolling block rebarreled in 45-70. As you said, no one has only one, and I was just thinking it would make the winchester more fun if I was shooting it with real powder.

['74 sharps]

I would probably go with the FFFG in a 30 caliber. Might want to check out compressing the load, wads,
etc. Might want to look at the smaller caliber '74's and see what those folks are having success with, and do some adaption to scale those numbers to your 30.

[John Boy]

But I am curious, I know that the 30-30 was designed as a smokeless cartridge, but is there any reason I couldn't load it with BP?

I would probably go with the FFFG in a 30 caliber ... and do some adaption to scale those numbers to your 30

Mike, stop and think! The 30-30 caliber designation stands for a 30 caliber bullet with 30 grains of powder - just like any of the other caliber designations .... 25-20, 38-55, 40-65, 45-70.

Now - there is no BP loading data for the 30WCF but for the 30-30 Wesson the data is 30grs of Fg powder with a 165gr bullet at 1650 fps. The Wesson is a straight wall case and has a water gr capacity of 28.06

The 30WCF has a water gr capacity of 44.50 and is a bottle neck case. Any loading data for a bottle neck case is... the powder charge is never any higher than half way up the the case neck before the bullet is seated to compress the powder.

So Mike .... I would volume fill the 30-30 case to half way up the neck - settle the powder and then scale weigh it. Load the case with Fg powder and a 160 or 165gr bullet with NO WAD OR GREASE COOKIE and then back off the powder charge by 10% with no compression for starters. That would put the charge in the 35-40gr scale weight

SAAMI listed pressures for the 30-30 using smokeless powder:
30-30 pizio 42 46 crusher 38 41
So the 30-30 loaded with BP would be below the pressure thresh holds loaded with smokeless because BP is a weak powder

I have a Hodgdon approved 30-30 load using 52gr of Triple Seven FFg with a 165gr lead bullet but it will ripe your face off from the felt recoil.

In addition, you might want to buy some reference books of case dimensions and ballistics instead of trying to get your education on the Internet from posters that make unknown supported recommendations with no supporting ballistic details or in your case ... don't fiddle with nothing that you absolutely don't know anything about!

AND ... Since you will be the FIRST to load the 30-30 with BP I've heard of, not having any published valid loading data .... I take no responsibility for the loading data methodology posted except the 30-30 Wesson which is a published loading data

[MikeS]

John, Well, yes, I know that the 30-30 designation is 30 cal, 30gr of powder. However, being a smokeless cartridge those 30gr of powder were a smokeless powder, not black. While I might be the first person you know of loading black in the 30-30 I'm sure it's been done some time in the past. I mean back in the early part of the 1900's lots of folks weren't really sold on smokeless, so I'm sure they loaded it up with black powder.

I'm curious about a couple of things. First why you would recommend Fg rather than FFg or FFFg for such a small cartridge? And secondly why even mention the Wesson 30-30, it's a totally different cartridge, being a straight walled cartridge compared to a bottlenecked one. Also, if you look back, I never asked anyone for loading data, simply advice on lubes. Actually your triple seven load is more informative than the wesson stuff. Would I be correct in the assumption that the weight they suggested was by volume like it should be, rather than by actual weight? I have yet to ever actually weigh a black powder charge with a scale, instead I use volumetric measurements, and plan on doing the same with the 30-30 IF I decide to try black powder in it.

[John Boy]

I'm curious about a couple of things,... a couple:?: (1) First why you would recommend Fg rather than FFg or FFFg for such a small cartridge? (2)And secondly why even mention the Wesson 30-30, it's a totally different cartridge, being a straight walled cartridge compared to a bottlenecked one. Also, if you look back, I never asked anyone for loading data, simply advice on lubes. (3)Actually your triple seven load is more informative than the wesson stuff. (4)Would I be correct in the assumption that the weight they suggested was by volume like it should be, rather than by actual weight? I have yet to ever actually weigh a black powder charge with a scale, instead I use volumetric measurements, and plan on doing the same with the 30-30 IF I decide to try black powder in it.
(1) If you start with Fg then you charge will be less than FFg or FFFg ... choice is yours though
(2) For comparison of charge based on case volume
(3) OK - you learned something, didn't you?
(4) Volume or volume converted to scale weight is your choice. The only firearm I charge by volume is a C&B. I shoot long range and each diffent lot of powder has a different density ... accordingly I want the same charge to equal the scale weight that has been proven for me previously. PS: I don't know a BPCR shooter worth a pound of salt that charges their cases by volume. Those that do just piddle around with BPCR shooting at 50 and 100 yds and own a set of Lee dippers. At over 500 meters different charges using dippers can cause different POI by as much as 3 to 4% because of non exact charge using dippers and powder density changes between lots of powder

As for someone in the turn of the century before semi-smokeless and smokeless using BP - you might want to data mine the Internet or old loading handbooks for the charge. None of my reference make mention of BP charges ... let me know if you find such

[bigted]

oh come on mike...shovel it full with bp and let fly...you will never get close to smokless preassures with any boolit you load on top of the powder charge. my 375 was a real pusseycat loaded with cartridge powder from GOEX. didnt come close to the beating i get from factory like loads and real factory...[read very expensive]...loads.

i have loaded blackpowder in almost everything i own with much fun and smoke. now if you wanna experience some real power using bp then find a sporter of around 7.5 to 8 pounds and chambered for the 45-120...now load this animal with 135 grains of the same cartridge powder under a 520 grain guberment boolit and let fly...if this does nothing for your blood preassure then find a 50-140 and i bet it would grab yer boo boo by the hair n twist...LOL...i love my shiloh 120 but it weighs around 11 pounds unlike the first 120 i had which was a chamber lengthened 45-70 browning hunter model with the origanal deep cresent plate.

anyhow the steel and action on modern guns have capabilitys for much more preassure then the blackpowder could ever produce.

another thing ill mention is the weighing thing. i weigh every charge that goes into my cases so far and this is so i know for a fact that the load has the exact amount of powder shot to shot...but then i use only REAL blackpowder...not the aftermarket stuff that requires the volume thing for their powder....[NOT THROWING ROCKS...JUST STATING FACTS HERE]...the volume thing didnt start till pyrodex began with their powder and its weight is less then the real blackpowder so...to get equal amounts of powder they had everybody do the volumemetric meassurement for their powder as in comparisson to the real stuff that weighs more then the liter pyrodex and all that followed. i remember the far fetched things that were claimed with this new...SMOKLESS LIKE BLACKPOWDER THAT DIDNT NEED CLEANED FOR WEEKS AT A TIME AFTER SH0OOTING...wonder how many guns got ruined before finding out that you need to clean it up just the same or better then real blackpowder...i know i lost a nice foreign revolver 36 cal cap-n-ball to the stuff in the 70's...then i had an old army 1860 style 44 cap-n-ball nearly go the same direction after allowing it to set overnight after firing the foul stuff. i guess some get along with it fine but personally i dont care for it at all. if real blackpowder was a thing of the past i believe id probably just use REAL smokless to load with...heck i already do with some of my bpcr rifles ocassionally.

anyhooo...load it with pleassure and have a ball. clean the cases and rifle with soapy water and rest assured that this IS NOT THE FIRST TIME for the 30-30 winchester to have had blackpowder fired in it. use 2f or 3f powder and rest with the fact that all you will have happen is a crack in your lips from grinning so much rite after shooting it.

[MikeS]

John Boy, & BigTed, I want to thank both of you. Until now my black powder was limited to a Ruger Old Army, a 45 Colt, and a T/C muzzle loading carbine. I guess I didn't do enough reading, as for those guns I've always seen that BP wasn't weighed, but rather was loaded by volume. So does that mean that using a B&M powder measure won't be good enough? Actually my concern with the 30-30 was never load strength, I know I can't possibly load enough BP into it to hurt the gun, unlike my rolling block that was made in 1887. My concerns with the 30-30 was more about fouling in such a small bore. All of the boolit moulds I have in 30 cal are designed for smokeless, and so have fairly small lube grooves. The only other concern I have is cleaning. I understand that all I need is soapy water, but what I wonder is how much cleaning do I need to do? I mean when I shoot the revolvers, to clean them I remove the grips, then clean them in the kitchen sink, so everything gets flooded with water to remove all traces of the BP. I then liberally spray them with a product called Fluid Film which is a rust preventative based on lanolin. With the rolling block, it field strips real easy, so again cleaning isn't a problem, but with the 30-30 after cleaning the bore, and wiping down the action, is any actual disassembly of the action needed? Would I be better off just shooting it with smokeless, and leave the BP to guns designed for it? I've never handled a Winchester 73 or 92, only the 94, so I don't know how different the actions are, and if there's anything about the 94 action that would make it harder to clean than the earlier models that were designed for BP.

I realize that some of my concerns may sound silly to somebody that's been shooting BP for years, but I'm just getting started. I know I could probably read a bunch of books to learn the answers, but if I can ask a few questions on a forum that I've learned has more info, and lots of experience, I think that's different than just pulling info from the internet, and youtube. And, just because I ask questions here doesn't mean that I stop thinking, and blindly follow any / all advise.

As a start I bought SPG's book about loading BP, as well as Mike Venturino's book about shooting the buffalo rifles. At the moment my shooting IS limited to 100 yards, so I don't think I need quite the same precision as somebody shooting at 800 or 1000 yards, so I hope the B&M powder measure I bought specifically to load BP will be good enough for the time being. If anyone has any suggestions on other books I should read that has different and/or better info than the 2 I'm starting with I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[StrawHat]

MikeS,

Once you find a load you like in the cartridge, you can measure the powder however you choose, as long as you get the same amount each time. If your measure gives repeatable results, it should work.

[John Boy]

The only other concern I have is cleaning. I understand that all I need is soapy water, but what I wonder is how much cleaning do I need to do? I mean when I shoot the revolvers, to clean them I remove the grips, then clean them in the kitchen sink, so everything gets flooded with water to remove all traces of the BP.
Hot water to clean BP firearms has been used for eons. The best hot water comes from a hand held steam cleaner with the pointed snout. Buy one.

* Stick the snout in the breech end of any firearm with the muzzle pointed in the sink. For handgun cylinder, put the cylinder in the drain opening of the sink. The steam will remove nearly all the foul. Run a dry patch down the bore to remove any residual and the chambers of the cylinder. Then patch using Eezox, a cleaner-lubricant and rust preventative. Wipe the inside of the receiver with a paper towel coated with Eezox. Wipe the outside of the firearm down with a shop rag coated with Eezox and your done.

* For handguns - I have never field stripped off the grips because there is next to zero foul inside the gun. Same with a rifle or shotgun. Just put a couple of drops of Eezox under the hammer - in the opening for the hand - in the trigger opening on the receiver to lube the sear

Eezox .... http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/pl-eezox.html#eezox
If it makes you feel good, annually take off the wood/grips and soak the firearm metal in a bucket of cleaning fluid - then blow dry and lube

PS: I shoot over 30 revolvers-rifles & shotguns with BP and have for years ... above is how I clean them. Yesterday I cleaned 2 Rugers - 1 SxS shotgun and 5 rifles. They are clean and have no rust.
My Rossi M1892 has over 12,000 rounds through it since 2001. I have field stripped it for cleaning once!

[MikeS]

Thanks, I'll get one of those steam cleaners (if we don't already have one, have to dig thru the boxes of stuff my father bought, then never used!). The only reason I removed the grips was because I was basically letting the water directly from the faucet flow over and into the gun, and I wanted to make sure I got everything dry, and then oiled. Got my front sight in, so I'm getting closer to being able to take the rolling block to the range! I think I'm going to stick with the rolling block for a while, and put the 30-30 on the back burner, at least as far as shooting BP in it, I have lots of other ammo I've already loaded, and need to get it sighted in. The only thing I don't like so much about BPCR is that each time I pull the trigger, SO MUCH lead is going downrange! Being that I'll be shooting it at the county range, rather than the club range I normally shoot at, that lead is lost forever. :(

[StrawHat]

...The only thing I don't like so much about BPCR is that each time I pull the trigger, SO MUCH lead is going downrange! Being that I'll be shooting it at the county range, rather than the club range I normally shoot at, that lead is lost forever. :... (

While it is commonly percieved to be a large bore sport, BPCR alos encompasses a whole slew of smaller caliber cartridges. Not as easy to get to shoot as the larger calibers, they are a whole lot of fun and not nearly so much lead goes down range. I am working up loads for a 22 WCF, boolits weigh from 35 to 50 grains. 10 pounds of lead might be a lifetime supply for a hunter.

[Buzzard II]

My .02 cents worth. About 14 years ago I bought 2 Win 94 30-30's at a gun show and found New Old Stock Win 38-55 barrels and fore ends and had a CAS friend swap out the parts. Guns shoot great-and I kept all the original parts. Cost me a couple of bottles of his favorite hooch. Guns still had hang tags on them and they were cheap!

[Idaho Mule]

MikeS, I was gonna be a smart a** and say that you should just sell that little rifle to me, but I have re considered. You are definitely passionate about your pursuit and I respect you for that. I am sure that someone here has even more info on your quest and I am fairly sure they will respond.I think it's kinda cool you want to shoot bp in the 30-30, wish I had knowledge/experience to share but I do not. Keep going forward and let us know how you do. JW

[NickSS]

I have loaded BP in 30-30 as well as in 30-06, 8mm Mauser and 303 British. The later three were loaded with Jacketed bullets and worked just fine. When I loaded up the 30-30 none of the bullets I tried would carry enough lube to get more than 5 or 6 shots before fouling started affecting accuracy. I never tried a grease cocky but that will help. My Brother just had a 94 re rifled by JES and he is really happy with the results. He just found a 94 at a cheap price and sent it for the work and it came back fast and it shoots very well from what he says.

[bigted]

MIKE...dont know where you are in your 30-30/bp persuit but as to the field cleaning thing i have a usable suggestion i did with my marlin lever...

id shoot 3 to 5 rounds with cookie loads then leave the just fired case in the rifle and run my wet patch down the bore from the muzzle end and into the fired case to keep the main fouling outta the action...after two of these damp wet patches i ran three dry down and back to dry the bore to a pristine clean condition...THEN i removed the spent case to start my shooting again...

those marlin rifles feild strip very easy what with the bolt coming out with little fanfare so when i got home after shooting around 100 rounds i was curious to see how much fouling had drifted into my action after this cleaning at the range...whan i removed the bolt and case deflecter i peered into the action and surounding reciever with a bright lite and magnafying glass to see what fouling had drifted into the action...found nothing but the oil coated parts that i had started out with. so with a thourogh bore cleaning with my ballistol/water mix then a very wet spray of rem oil into the action and bore i had and still have a very clean rifle with NO DAMAMAGE from the dredfull blackpowder spoiling effects of fouling... :mrgreen:... sooooo the cleaning is very straight forward and another trick ive heard about but never tryed is the string cleaning with a wet followed by the dry from the breech end...pulled thru once only per patch so the fouling goes outta the front of the rifle instead of back into the action...same treatment at home tho with a drenching and dripping rifle from copious amounts of rem oil spray.

have fun and keep smilin with yer fun endeavers!!!:drinks:

[Springfield]

I know and have read of quite a few Cowboy Acton shooters who have tried BP in a 30-30 and most all of them eventually either converted theirs to 38-55(I did also) or just bought a 38-55. Seems the accuracy just wasn't there with the 30-30. I converted mine because I already owned it and then Numrich had a bunch of barrels in 38-55 on sale. It was a bit of work but I really like it. The barrel on the 30-30 was too short anyway for cowboy shooting. Now I have a 26" octagon barrel.

[Alan]

This very thing is why the .32 Win. Special was born. It is not so much the bore size as the rifling twist. I have a ballard-rifled 336RC in .32 Spl and I love it.