Bottom pour vs ladle pour

[MikeS]

Hi All.

No, this is not another thread asking which method is better!

I'm curious about something else. I recently got an old Rolling block rifle in 45-70, and so of course also starting casting boolits for it. While I've ladle cast in the past, my primary method of casting is using a bottom pour pot. I got a couple of Lyman single cavity moulds, a 457125 500gr boolit, and a 457193 405gr boolit. I preheated the moulds, and started casting. The boolits came out wrinkled. At first I thought that perhaps the mould wasn't preheated enough, and the wrinkles would go away. Well, they didn't, I even enlarged the hole in the sprue plate, as they were really small, and larger moulds usually do better with a larger pour hole. I didn't really open them up much, just slightly more than .125". Still no love, the wrinkles would not go away. The blocks didn't have any oil on them, so that wasn't the problem.

As I was sitting there thinking, I remembered what several members here have said about ladle pouring works better when casting those big boolits, so I dug out my ladle, and the very first boolit I cast using the ladle (a Lyman ladle) came out looking great! Not a wrinkle in sight! So this brings me to my question:

Why do ladles work better on larger boolits than bottom pouring?

The only down side for me is that to ladle cast I have to cast standing up, rather than sitting like I do for bottom pouring, and I've been having problems with my back hurting severely when standing, so I was only able to cast 50 boolits (25 of each) before the pain got the better of me and I had to stop. Now I'm going to see if I can put my pot on a low table so I can cast while seated, as it really annoyed me to have to stop so soon after getting my casting problem solved!

[stubshaft]

Speaking for myself, I find that a ladle gives me more control on the amount of metal that I pour. I can dump more into a large mold faster than a bottom pour.

[Marlin Junky]

Mike,

With your bottom pouring set up all you can do to increase your narrow stream pressure is put more metal in the pot and/or lower the mold. With a big ladle you can overcome the mold with a deluge of metal. Flowing metal over the sprue plate with a big ladle like a Rowell#2 also aids in keeping the mold hot. When it comes to pouring hot alloy into tiny places the sprue needs to remain liquid at least a couple seconds after the mold is filled... oh yeah, and neatness doesn't count; however, all your overflow should go back in the pot. :bigsmyl2:

If you want to sit down while ladle casting, find yourself an old coffee or end-table at a yard sale and use that for your casting bench.

MJ

[RobsTV]

When I started casting 440gr .501 boolits in a Lee 2 cavity mold, the bottom pour flow seemed too low for good results. Emptied Lee bottom pour pot, then found a drill bit the same size as the flow tube. Ran this drill bit through the tube by hand several times, basically cleaning it up. This increased the flow to a nice heavy flow now, and zero problems or issues with dual cavity C501-440 RF boolits.

Last week cast some Lee 459-405-HB 45-70 boolits for the first time, and all were perfect from the start, (mold on hot plate prior to use). For Black Powder shooting, used 18:1 lead/tin and bottom pour flow was never an issue. No wrinkles or flaws anywhere. Temperature kept at around 650 to 700. Molds cleaned spotless prior to use. I always place molds almost touching flow tube, with just enough clearance for sprue puddle to not hit tube while removing mold.

The only issues I have with bottom pour is that it seems like too much flow for small cavity molds, causing extra large sprue puddle. But just use this to help control melt temperature by frequently tossing them back into pot.

[cajun shooter]

I have been casting large bullets since 1970. I had a Siamese Mauser then in 45-70.
I use a RCBS Pro Melt for most all my casting until I reach the area around 400 grains then I switch to ladle pour.
The best ladle pour pot made is a Wagge 4757 and they are special order as you will not find them in catalog. You call and place the order. They have a very good thermostat and are a no problem furnace.
When ladle pouring it is as has been posted, you fill the mould much faster and it makes perfect bullets.
The best mould I ever had that is store bought is the Saeco 745. It's the 535 grain Postell design and does great all the way to 1,000 yds.
The Wagge was at just $150 when I purchased mine but the last time I heard they were close to $200. They are worth every penny of that.
Just make sure you go to Walley World or some place similar and purchase a large single burner hotplate to preheat your moulds. It's the best way to keep even temperatures as I use 2 or more moulds of the same type and rotate them using the hotplate to rest the moulds on.
Once you ladle pour your large bullets you will never go back to the bottom pour for that job.
If I had went on line just a few minutes earlier you would not have had that rolling block, that was a outstanding deal for a cast bullet rifle. Later David

[Larry Gibson]

I also switch to ladle pour when bullet weight hits 350 - 400+ grs. It is difficult with most bottom pours to get the alloy into such a large mould quickly enough. The alloy cools very quickly coming out of the spout. Opening the pour adjustment and keeping the sprue plate close to the spout can help but bullets of 350+ grs can still be problematic. I also ladle pour with larger caliber HB bullets like the Lee 405HB or the Rapin 460210HB to get a good skirt fill out.

Larry Gibson

[Bigslug]

Well, I can't speak of the ease or difficulty of ladle pour, but I can say that the big boys CAN be done with bottom pour. My dad's into buffalo rifles, but he's got sufficient hand/wrist/shoulder issues that ladle-pouring is something he can't even contemplate doing safely. Like so much of this game, it's just a matter of adjustment.

[MikeS]

If I had went on line just a few minutes earlier you would not have had that rolling block, that was a outstanding deal for a cast bullet rifle. Later David

Well then, thank you for your timing! :) I'm hoping that it shoots better than it looks! It's a spanish rolling block action with a Remington sporting barrel. I bought a Marble's tang sight for it, and I was going to use a Lyman 17 front sight that I already have here, but the Remington barrel has a .450 dovetail for the front sight, rather than the 'normal' 3/8" dovetail, so it wouldn't fit. I bought a Lee Shaver clone of the Lyman 17, but it has the right dovetail, and a spirit level built in. Unfortunately when the barrel was put on, the barrel got kind of banged up (I think an unpadded vise was used), so the metal on both the barrel, and action would need quite a bit of work to make them look pretty. Personally I don't care about it being pretty, as I plan on using this rifle, not mounting it on a wall and admiring it, so those things don't bother me, as long as it shoots well. I might eventually change the barrel, as it has a couple of pits in it. The wood on it while fairly plain is finished nicely.

[theperfessor]

MikeS -

I mentioned this in another thread - how about ladle casting LITTLE bullets while the mold is on a hot plate to keep it at proper casting temperature? I can understand all the reasons for ladling the big thumpers, but how about the .22 caliber 50 grainers?

[MikeS]

Keith, I wouldn't know about ladle pouring .22's, as I've never poured any .22's with any method. :) If I did have to cast .22's I would imagine the flood method of ladle pouring would help keep the moulds up to temp some.

[williamwaco]

Standing up - ME TOO.


Try putting your pot on a step stool low enough that the top of the pot is at about the height of your knees when you are seated on your casting chair/stool.

[theperfessor]

Yeah, nothing under .35 caliber for me either. Just supposin' ...

[pdawg_shooter]

I always get better bullets with fewer rejects and and less problems with a ladle. Quit trying to use a bottom pour back in the 70s.