Correct BHN for auto pistols

[RDub]

Hello
The real focus of my question revolves around making the ‘correct’ or ‘acceptable’ or the minimum BHN value for use in auto pistols like a G20 10mm where a 200gr hard cast bullet might reach 1150 or even 1200 fps.. (After market barrel..)

I’ve looked over the Lead Alloy Calculator and that was most interesting.
But I still have a few questions I can’t get my head around..

When we’re talking about percentages of materials in the various alloys, are we talking % by weight or % by volume?

So the more practical application for this question is..

I have ingots of soft lead, ingots of clip-on WW, ingots of Lino, and some pure tin. And IIRC I even have some 60/40 Pb/Sn.. or maybe the other way around.. Maybe I don’t remember correctly.. Anyway, bought some of that on Ebay a while ago.
So, If I start with an empty RCBS 20# furnace, and wanting to make some 10mm bullets to the above recommended BHN hardness, .. what would be the ratio of ingots of the above materials to make that alloy?

And.. What if I used water quenching? How would that effect things? Does the hardness of water quenched bullets change over time? Seems I read somewhere that it will..

Thanks for the help with this..

[Defcon-One]

Here are some answers:

1.) Percentage is by weight! Go to Walmart and buy a digital kitchen scale that reads in decimal pounds (0.00 lbs. or better). Your gonna need one!

2.) As far as a mix or "alloy recipe" it all comes down to a bit of science plus personal preference, both yours and your guns. Trial and error and some experimenting works for me.

The comercially cast fodder is all usually made from Hard Ball alloy (also known as Magnum Alloy) which is a mix of 2% Tin, 6% Antimony and 92% Lead. It is most easily made by mixing equal parts, 50/50, of pure Soft Lead and Linotype and was developed to be a cheaper substitute for Lyman #2. It fills that roll well and it might be a good place for you to start for your 10mm at the higher velocities. Personally, I find it a bit heavy on Antimony and too hard. (They make it that hard mostly to make the bullets survive shipping without damage.)

Magnum Alloy/Hard Ball (2, 6, 92):

10 lbs. - Linotype
10 lbs. - Pure Soft Lead

3.) You have a good supply of the right ingredients to make just about any alloy that you want and with Bumpos calculator it should be easy enough to come up with a recipe. You also also have what I consider to be the best bottom pour production pot on the market, all things considered (The RCBS Pro-Melt).

4.) For water dropping you'll need to use as much COWW lead in your mix as possible to get the benefit of the Arsenic content, which aids greatly in the hardening process. (I personally do not water drop and do not recommend it, too much hassle for me, so I'll let others go there for you!)

The rest is opinion. I like to use 2% Tin, 3% Antimony, 95% Lead as my pistol alloy. It seems to work well for everything that I shoot 9mm to .45 ACP. But for .44 magnum loads or super hot 10mm loads, I might go a bit higher on the Antimony! For rifle shooting I use Lyman #2 with gas checks or very rarely, pure Linotype!

Try this:

General auto pistol (2, 3, 95):

10 lbs. - COWW Lead
0.29 lbs. - 60/40 Solder
0.12 lbs. - Linotype


I think that you'll find that everyone has there own opinions. You will hear a lot of people saying that they use COWW lead for everything, but I always add some Tin for castability and adjust the Antimony for hardness. I make small batches, cast some and test them. Once I find the perfect alloy for my application, I switch to mixing larger batches and store it all as ready to cast ingots. I aslo mark them with a stamp so that I know what they are later.

For me the whole process is fun and rewarding, so have some fun!

[bumpo628]

I have never loaded for 10mm, but based on the velocity I would guess that you need at least a Bhn of 12. I would try an alloy with 1% tin and 3% antimony, air cooled. If that leaded, then I would water drop. You may end needing to increase the percentages, but I think that would be a good starting point.

Regarding the alloy percentages, they are always by weight.

Solder percentages list the tin% first. So, if your solder is labeled 60/40 then it has 60% tin and 40% lead.

An easy way to make 1/3/96 alloy is to mix Lino & Pure 50/50. Then mix the resulting 2/6/92 alloy again 50/50 with pure lead and you have 1/3/96.
Or you could add some tin to clip-on ww lead and see how that performs.

Water quenching will increase the hardness when your alloy has antimony and even more when it has arsenic. The hardness will reduce over time, but it will take quite a while to get all the way back to air cooled hardness.

[RDub]

Thank you.. Very informative. Fills in some gaps..

I was going to 'guess' that a 50/50 Lead/Lino would be about right, but now I'll try it with confidence..

Thanks again

[RDub]

Well, one more thing..

I ran across this formula I wrote down back when..

Optimum BHN = CUPS/(1422*.90)..

Since most data I see now lists PSI now instead of CUP, is there an updated formula now?

[bumpo628]

The Hodgdon reloading center still lists pressure in CUP.
However, I would take the results of that formula with a grain of salt. I believe it was put out by Missouri Bullet. Almost all of their products are "bhn 18", but they use Hardball which is supposed to be 16.

[btroj]

My pistol doesn't seem to care about BHn.

Try some bullets, see if it leads. Alloy isn't always the cause of leading, often it isn't.

Go experiment and see what YOUR pistol wants. That is how learning to shoot cast works, time experimenting.

I have read way too many times about how the shallow rifling on a 1911 in 45 ACP needs a hard bullet, mine doesn't seem to know it can easily do well with range scrap. Maybe itis a good thing my pistol doesn't read the gun rags?

[RDub]

Ok then..
Well winter is comin on, so it's time to fire up the furnace again..
So we'll see how it goes.

Thanks for all the input.

[runfiverun]

forget all about that formula in post number--5 i'm sure your gun does not know that.

work on boolit fit,seriously.
i mainly use a 1/3 alloy or as close as i can get with what i have.
i have put some serious pressure to this alloy in revolvers,rifles,and leverguns.
i waterdrop for some cases.
i also use a 4/6/90 alloy for some rifles [i water drop it for one boolit but i am pushing it over 2700 fps]
that's about as fancy as my alloys get.

[cajun shooter]

Instead of worrying about an exact mixture, use a Cabin Tree BHN gauge. When you reach the area of 13 -15 you are ready to go.
Elmer Keith did a lot of his testing with the 44mag with lead in the 10 BHN range. It is more about fitting the bullet to the barrel than hardness.
The commercial bullet makers know the bullets they sell will be used in all sizes and conditions of bores. The way to avoid problems is go very hard. Your shipping and shooting problems are solved. But your shooting results may suffer.
The old cup (copper units pressure) showed where there was some problems with it being used as a standard to go by, so the psi came along to replace it.
You will find in the old manuals where cup was used that the loads were much higher than today's listings. There are several reasons but one of them was that the cup was not always correct.

[357shooter]

forget all about that formula in post number--5 i'm sure your gun does not know that.



+1. The formula looks like the one publised by Lee, for rifles. I don't kow if it's useful for rifles, but I do know is useless for handguns. That's base on lots of testing. Many of the loads I shoot with BHN 8 would require BHN 30 if I used it (the formula). My BHN 8-10 is accurate and doesn't lead one bit! :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2: :bigsmyl2:

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I guess I've been lucky. I just thrown an even number of lead and COWW ingots into the pot, melt, flux, and cast. Lubed with BAC, I get no leading in any of the following
9mm (Glock, Kel-Tek, Sig 226, a carbine that uses a Glock lower)
.40 S&W (Glock, S&W M&P, Sig 2340)
10mm (EAA Witness, 2 of them, 150 gn TC at max throttle too)
.45 ACP (S&W M&P)
.44 Mag (2 Ruger revolvers, 1 Tarus revolver)
.357 Mag (Ruger, S&W, and a Rossi carbine)

[Griz44mag]

Quit guessing, and mixing by feel. Wheel weights, lino, anything you get will vary in hardness. Sometimes a lot! Get a hardness tester, and know for certain what you have. They are not expensive and make alloy mixing a lot easier.
Quit looking at FPS as the sole guideline. Look at the pressure you are going to be putting on the boolit. Lee's Second Edition manual has an excellent guideline on pressure vs acceptable hardness. I have been using the pressure guides for years, and just don't have any issues with leading or accuracy problems. I have tested wheel weights from 9 to 14 BH, so mix a pound of this or a pound of that is just bad science and will produces haphazard results. Do the testing, and remove the guessing. It's so simple that I just can't understand why there are so many on these forums that still don't have testers, but are willing to advise on how to mix unknown leads.

[btroj]

As one of those with put a tester I would say that experience gives me the ability to known when something will, or won't, work. I am not afraid of pushing the envelope and getting a bit of leading.

I cast, load, and shoot a bunch.

Trying to make this all cookbook, numbers, testers, and psi calculations is wrong.

At some point a guy just needs to have the ability to feel when someing will or won't work.

The idea that one "requires" or "needs" a specific alloy or BHn for a specific load is bunk. Way too many people have excellent results with bullets way harder or softer than what is "required".

Fit, lube, bullet design, and many other things can alloy alloys of a wide range of BHn to work quite well.

People would be better off of they did more doing and less reading.

Want to know what works? Go find out! Go cast em, load em, and shoot em. Then you know.

[Defcon-One]

I agree with Griz44mag on the hardness tester!

In fact, there are three things that everyone should have. A good thermometer for smelting and casting, a hardness tester that works and a supply of known content metal.

The latter is why I have gradually shifted from scrap wheel weight Lead (unknown) to Isotope Core Lead (Known and repeatable content!)

My favorites are (Sn, Sb, Pb):

Large Isotope Cores (1, 3, 96)
Linotype (4, 12, 84)
Solder (60, 0, 40 or 50, 0, 50)
Pure Lead (0, 0, 100)

With these staples, and good equipment, I can make any alloy that I need and be very confident that it IS what it's supposed to be!

DC-1

[Griz44mag]

BT,


Trying to make this all cookbook, numbers, testers, and psi calculations is wrong.

Yep, sure enough, the world really is flat and we are all going to fall off the edge someday.


The idea that one "requires" or "needs" a specific alloy or BHn for a specific load is bunk.

In your post above, you stated you don't care if you get leading or not. Bad accuracy also comes with leading. So yep, you are right, if one does not care about the quality of one's own work, accuracy, or leading, it's truly just bunk. You are absolutely correct it is not a "requirement" or a "need". For some of us, we do the best we can, not the easiest we can.

Even a fingernail scratch is a means of hardness testing. If what you are doing works for you, then great, you are doing the right thing - for you. I too, cast and load and shoot, (a lot) and have been doing it for a very long time. (Pushing 50 years now) I thought just like you until a decade or so ago, then I found out that there was (IS) room for a better way of approaching the hobby we all love so much. I took a little more of a scientific approach, and found out that I could improve on what I was doing - a lot of improvement actually. My groups tightened up, my cleaning time went down, my enjoyment and satisfaction went way up. Yes, it's still just a hobby, for most if not all of us. How well you do, or how much you enjoy what you do and the results you get are yours and yours alone on a personal level, and I am happy that you are happy with your results. Stating that having good facts and information, proper testing and loading is "bunk" or "wrong" is both misleading and inaccurate and sends the wrong message especially to those just starting out.

[popper]

I've only been casting for ~ a yr. I don't have a tester. I do believe if using 'mystery metal' you need one. I have a scale, weigh and RECORD the alloy. When I find what works, I KNOW what it is. Start at 50/50 #2/Pb (whatever ingredients you have) and work down, sized properly to FIT, as your goal is fps and accuracy. As your experience grows you can play with the alloy and load.

[btroj]

I didn't say I accept leading, I said I am not afraid of getting lead due to pushing the envelope. I am a form believer that we often learn far more from what doesn't work than we do from what does work.

Lading isn't a failure, it is an indication that something was wrong. Figuring out what was wrong is a big part of learning.

Unless we are buying foundry certified alloy none of us I ow for certain what we have.

My range scrap is an unknown alloy. I can approximate what it is but don't really care. I know how to make it work, that matters more to me than anything else.

I decided long ago to worry less about what goes to the bullets I cast and concentrate on worrying more about where they go.

As for beginners, they are better off getting some teaching from an experienced caster initially. They then need to go and cast, load, shoot, observe. See what works for them. Find out what does or doesnt work.

Ask the old hands here how many leaded barrels they have dealt with over their casting careers. Bet it is a bunch. Bet they also learned from every one of them.

Maybe if we told beginners to learn from experience rather than froma book they would learn faster? Or maybe actually learn?

[40Super]

I'm kind of with Btroj in that I use mainly ww and range lead, I don't really weigh things too much other than 10 ingots of WW and 10 range ingots or 5 ingots of pure(my own smelted). I do have a several of my ww "brands" seperated, so they are more consistant. As long as my bullets fit my barrels , leading is none,zip,nada,zero,ect... Yes my accuracy is up there also, I am doing better than I did with those J-words.

I do however have a tester that I made , similar to Seaco's, for seeing how one batch of bullets compares to another, I have a bunch of pure lead and pure lino .45 bullets cast so I can " setup" the scale. I get my lead fairly cheap so I am able to put that money towards guns or better equipement instead of paying more for bullets just to get exact alloys. For rifles, then I probably would get more into better alloy control, but right now I don't do much in rifles so thats not an area that I need to worry about, yet.

[runfiverun]

i do have a bhn tester, 2 actually.
here is what i have really learned over the years using them.
ww's have been getting softer and softer over the years.
they are still the standard of the casting community [probably not for much longer though]
i now take the softer ww alloy and add softer lead to it and still push it just as hard as i did when i used straight ww's with tin added back when tin was about 2.50-3.00 a lb for pure tin bars.

[rintinglen]

I have a Lee hardness tester...somewhere. I never use it any more. In fact, I look at BHN like I look at blond hair on a woman--nice, but not essential. Proper fitting, well filled-out boolits with a good lube don't lead, group great, and can be just about any hardnessfrom 8 to 28 without it much making a difference.. Concentrate on good fill-out, size your boolits to fit your gun and don't worry too much about alloy.

Dean Grennell used to say something to the effect "That if it looks plumbous, I'll probably cast with it." Not a bad rule to follow.

[btroj]

Exactly.

Worry about learning how to make things work. Fretting over minute details for oat of us is just plain silly. If you are shooting hardcore competition then it may matter.

The weak link in most shooting situations is the shooter, not the ammo. My ammo can out shoot me right now. I am working to change that.

[plainsman456]

I use a 50/50 mix of wheelweights/range scrap with between 1 and 2 oz of 95/5 thrown,in an 11 pound pot.
So far it has been spot on for the 9mm,38/357,40 s&w and the plain old boring 45 acp.All air cooled.
The latest was a 160 and 180 for the s&w and they flattened out like they were hollowpoints.

[ShooterAZ]

One other way to make 1/3/96 is to mix 1 part lino to 3 parts pure lead. I did this with a bunch of sheet roofing lead I scrounged and this alloy works well in all of my handguns. I bought the linotype from rotometals.

[RDub]

Well, lots of folks chiming in on this one..! Lots of valuable information. Thanks

I wouldn’t be asking the question I did if it weren’t for me getting into a 10mm, which I have come to realize is kind of a unique hotrod as pistol rounds go.

I have a post about how far I have gone with it if the 10mm shooters want to check it out..

http://www.handloadersbench.com/forum17/23044.html

I’ve been casting since the early ‘70s.. started out with a very basic pot and a mold for .38 Special and getting my Mom all PO about the lead splatters on her stove.. As years went by, my technique got better and I understood more about alloys, and casting for more calibers, from plinkers to full power .357, .41 and .44 Mag.
I was like most of you, if it worked I went with it, with good results...most of the time.. For a long time I didn’t know what a BHN tester was, and still don’t have one. So I guess it’s about time to take the next step..

Anyway, there are some 10mm ammo makers, you know who they are, who offer hard cast bullets in weights up to 230grs. From what I’ve seen myself and from what I hear they shoot fairly well in an aftermarket barrel. So I was curious about the bullets they use as far as BHN. It’s more likely just the standard hard alloy mentioned that most bullet makers use.

So I figure if I knew the BHN of the bullets the ammo makers use, I could start there with mine and experiment from there. In my mind, the alloy has to be ‘hard’ enough to bounce off the ramp and get the round in the chamber, yet ‘soft’ enough to create a gas seal… Seem like a relatively narrow parameter, but maybe not..

I’ve casted for the .40 using the Lyman 38/40WCF bullet with good results. The alloy is fairly hard and I don’t get any leading in the Sigma barrel.. but I’m not pushing these very hard either.

I’m going to start out with the RCBS 200gr SWC for the 10mm and see how it goes..

Thanks again for all the interesting replies.. :drinks:

[runfiverun]

2/6/92 is about 15 bhn.
it's linotype cut in half with pure.
i believe you can buy [terracorp magnum/hardball alloy] from any foundry.
some want you to buy 2 tons at a time though.
our sponsor roto metals will sell smaller lots and quite often pays the shipping on orders of a certain dollar amount.
you can use ww's and about 2% tin to achieve a bhn in the 11-12 area with good castability and better malleability [resists shearing] than the 2/6 alloy.
you can water drop this alloy to achieve a bhn in the 22-24 bhn range.
the 1/3 alloy i use is close to 20 when water dropped.

[Lizard333]

Why not keep your stock barrel, and cast for that. There is a HUGE misconception that you can't shoot lead through a glock barrel. Not true. The trick is to make your alloy softer than what you order from bullet retailers. You need your boolit to engage the rifling not skirt over it. Slug your barrel and go one or two thousandths over. My fathers glock I use 50/50 WW to soft lead and size a thousandth over groove. He has shot a couple thousands through his stock glock barrel.

Now, I'm not the happiest about this because I'm the one that has to do all the casting but I am happy it works for him.

You might be surprised to see what you find.

[RDub]

Why not keep your stock barrel, and cast for that. There is a HUGE misconception that you can't shoot lead through a glock barrel. Not true. The trick is to make your alloy softer than what you order from bullet retailers. You need your boolit to engage the rifling not skirt over it. Slug your barrel and go one or two thousandths over. My fathers glock I use 50/50 WW to soft lead and size a thousandth over groove. He has shot a couple thousands through his stock glock barrel.

Now, I'm not the happiest about this because I'm the one that has to do all the casting but I am happy it works for him.

You might be surprised to see what you find.

Well, I did get this other barrel just so I could shoot lead, but it would be nice to know I could shoot cast in the factory barrel if I had to with confidence..

As far as shooting cast through Glock barrels,..
I don’t know if I would call this a misconception.. it’s more like a controversy..
Some say it’s ok, and on the other extreme, some say they get horrible leading..

There are numerous opinions on the forums about this, but in all these opinions very few offer any specifics about the BHN of the bullets they are working with. If this were known, one might get a sense of what is too hard or too soft..maybe.

May I ask what round your Dad’s Glock is chambered for? Your WW/lead mix sounds kinda soft.. Can you make a visible mark on the bullet with your thumbnail?

[Hawkeye45]

Finally I got some answers to questions rattling around in my head for more years than I care to count. I agree with BTROI, use what works in your guns. BTW, good to see another RPH in the sessions.
Also, I have been making my alloy to #2 hardeness for everything, OOPS. I have been getting bogged down in the minuta of things for so long some of the fun went out of casting. Looks like a partial reversal in my thinging needs to be done.

There will be time for fine tuning later.

You guys (and gals) are the best source of info going.

[badbob454]

a thumb nail is a good lead hardness tester
1. cant scratch it , magnum and rifle loads
2. can scratch it lightly , good for auto pistold and light loads
3 scratches easily , good for slugs in shotguns , black powder ,subsonic loads ..
or use a bhn tester both will get you there in the ballpark . as 2 people using a tester will give 2 different results .
human error my friend ,,, happy casting , and may your boolit fly straight ... badbob

[popper]

55665
401175 AC 2.5% Sb, sulfur added, smashed by hammer. Fingernail won't scratch. I was surprised by the compression of the groove, bands same size, nose squished. Almost .5 dia. They don't have to be that hard.

[Pitchnit]

I'm in my 1st year of casting, soley 45 acp. Still learning and will be for years. My leading issues are getting better but not completely gone. But, a little pure copper chore boy takes care of what I get in just a few strokes. Just make sure its pure copper not plated.

[Lloyd Smale]

i kind of side with btoj. If your out rolling beer cans or just want plinking ammo about any alloy can be made to work. If your looking for the upmost in accuracy ive found harder alloys like around 15bhn work better and even harder is better but anymore linotype is expensive and you have to draw the line somewhere. As to leading what ive found is its more a gun problem then an alloy problem. Auto loaders dont operatate at velocity levels for the most part to make alloy causeing leading a problem. If your auto loader leads using a 10bhn bullet at 800 fps its probably going to lead no matter what you use and needs to have its problems corrected. I rarely tune a load with a change of alloy. I pick an alloy thats proper for the job and tune my load around it. After a while like he said you kind of get a feel for what works best but dont be afraid to try something that isnt exactly like you used last time. This isnt rocket science. Like btoj said dont sweat the small stuff.
Exactly.

Worry about learning how to make things work. Fretting over minute details for oat of us is just plain silly. If you are shooting hardcore competition then it may matter.

The weak link in most shooting situations is the shooter, not the ammo. My ammo can out shoot me right now. I am working to change that.

[Any Cal.]

I use water dropped range scrap, which is probably 3-1 jacketed to hardcast, and it works well over too much Longshot in an aftermarket barrel. I get some leading in the last inch of barrel, but it isn't bad and never gets any worse. Missouri commercial cast did ok in that barrel 'til they got pushed, then leaded quite a bit.

The DoubleTap 230s didn't lead up to 1100 fps in the stock barrel, fwiw, but the Missouri bullets did, if I remember right. Haven't tried the softer stuff in the stock barrel, just haven't gotten to it.