Copper Slugs info.

[TonyfromItaly]

The legislation in Italy is moving toward no toxic (no lead) slugs. In some regions lead is prohibited, and soon it may happen in Toscany.

My question to You is: does anyone know how to make copper slugs, or where to buy them at a resonable price?

keeping in mind the the remington and federal we can find here at 4.0 euro each ($5.50 each)

i thank anyone for any suggestion.

[Mooseman]

You might look at "TMJ" bullets...they are totally encapsulated in copper.
Also Barnes "triple shock" are solid copper.
The problem is going to be finding slugs but maybe you could contact one of the companies and ask them if they make or can make them for the market.
http://www.midwayusa.com/content/legacy/bullet_composition.htm
Good luck and sorry to hear about the envirowhackos winning in Italy. With all the lead fired in Italy/ Europe during wars , everyone should be dead if it was a real problem.

[TonyfromItaly]

Thank you so much for the reply. We can easily find Barnes bullets for rifles. However, in wild hog hunting most use 12 gauge, since we hunt wit 50 hunters surrounding an big area, and a pack of dogs driving them to the positions. (in england the do some hunting with pheasants, we do with hogs )
Here shots are fast, 20 to 40 yards away and fast moving. In this situation 12 or 20 Ga has an advantage over rifles. In addition to this, many older hunters (65 yr +) have always hunted with 12 ga, and do not want to spend the extra money for a rifle. Therefore, affordable copper slugs could be the solution.

.... and by the way...... still today, when they do some excavation for building or agricolture, often an airplane dropped bomb comes up, or they find buried rifles or WWII equipment.

[longbow]

This might be a good application for zinc based alloys.

I have never tried them but some people have posted good result using zinc in regular boolit moulds.

I find it hard to believe that they cast well but it may depend on alloy to a large extent and many zinc alloys used for die casting are very fluid. However, zinc can be very erosive to iron/steel when hot and of course boolit moulds have to be hot to cast well.

In any case, copper slugs are machined though I suppose they could be swaged. Zinc could be cast or machined.

It just may be the future of boolit casting/making in many areas.

Longbow

[tomme boy]

One problem you are going to run into shooting the copper or zinc is you have to have a barrel that has no choke. The copper or zinc will not compress when it goes threw a choke. It will bulge or split the end of a barrel if it has a choke. You will need a cylinder bore or a rifled barrel.

[OnHoPr]

Elect better politicians if that is POSSIBLE! You might be able to get a mini lathe and turn your own steel slugs from 11/16" steel rod bar and load them into a BPI steel wad for a true cylinder or rifled slug barrel.

[TonyfromItaly]

Here we can find solid copper round bars of different diameters. We can find brass bars as well, but brass maybe too hard of material and i am afraid it will pass the hog from side to side without stopping it right there, as lead does.

A patient of mine does custom jewelry and we may try to make wax slugs and melt the copper in it. That way we can make about 40 at a time. Of couse we will load them into BPI commander of other Steel wads.

Many of the wads sold by BPI are made in italy. We have a huge selection of wads (Gualandi, Baschieri e Pellagri, Nobel Sport and Cheddite) so we have no problems finding a wad.

Zinc is a good idea as well, wheel balancing weights shoud be zinc, but i need to find out for sure.

Can anyone give suggestion on a design? a foster style slug with thick walls?

thank you fellows!

[hubel458]

European Cartridge makes copper bullets in 12ga sabot with discarding
petals but still has a locked on base. They are in Greece.
They are nearly as accurate in smoothbores as in rifled.
Called US-S and some other styles.Green sabot ones in pic.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

[OnHoPr]

If your only shooting at 50 yd or so, any of the materials of copper,brass, or steel should pass through a hog unless it is loaded down. If you had a favorite tough wad and figured the dimensions for a slug, why son't you design your own. Such as, probably in the mid high .600 ths with a short truncated cone with a big meplat and a roll crimp ridge for options. Then find a small screw machine shop and see what the shop would charge for their services. As I said before elect better politicians.

[Whiterabbit]

barnes in a sabot. Gonna be the easiest game in town. Should be simpler trying to reload the existing leadfree sabot slugs than trying to reinvent the wheel of rifled slugs in lead-free.

[TonyfromItaly]

Whiterabbit, if you kindly could send me a link where to buy the Barnes 12 ga sabot i will be thankful.

I seem to find only shells with it.

we can buy the federal one in italy as well, however, 4.00 euro, $5.50 each shell is, in my opinion, hiway robbery. Shipping loaded shells to italy is prohibited.

The importer and the distributor here make a killing. We would like just the lead free bullet in sabot and we load it ourselves.

Politicians...... well, it is the judicial system that decides in our case. Court judgements make precedent and other courts follow. Yes, politicians to not want to get involved or they would loose vote, from hunters o environmentalists.

i hope you understand what i am trying to say.

thanks for the suggestions.

[OnHoPr]

Darn, I thought a greater number of members on this forum were creative and inventive, along with being helpful problem solvers in a number of regards.:not listening:[smilie=1:

[longbow]

There are probably several options if the lead free issue becomes a problem.

As mentioned, solid copper bar in a sabot should work in rifled guns. These would have to be machined or swaged slugs and I suspect the force required fro swaging copper would be beyond the home swager.

Cast zinc should work, machined zinc, copper, bronze or brass should all work and be heavy enough (dense enough) in a 12 ga. Even steel should be dense enough at 12 ga. diameter.

Of course to machine slugs you would need a mini lathe, or similar, set up to turn and part off slugs of very consistent weight and diameter.

The bigger problems are:

- If you are shooting smoothbore then you need drag stabilization through "shuttlecock" design of hollow base or attached wad Brenneke like.
- Any hard material will not collapse to go through a choke (even solid lead slugs are not safe to shoot through a choke). You need sub bore size that will fit through a choke, sabot, or some mechanism that will allow slug collapse if it meets a choke (fins or narrow ribs might work with copper or zinc).

One solution to this is here:

http://ddupleks.com/index.php/en/home.html

Not something that is easy to make at home though!

I am working on a Brenneke style slug with attached basewad that is showing promise. No reason it shouldn't shoot well if I can get the slug/wad consistency in form and alignment... which is the trick! I have tried screwing wads on like Brenneke with poor success even using jigs. However, I have come up with a way of casting on a hot melt glue "skirt" and so far it looks good. I do have to do more testing though.

This could also be done with copper, zinc or other materials.

Mine are sub bore size and fit into shotcups. To make them more choke friendly they could be sized to fit into thick petal steel shot shotcups which should allow safe shooting through a choke ~ maybe not good accuracy but not splitting the choke off would be good.

Ed also mentions the US-S slugs. I remember he posted about those before but I can't find a website that works. Here is an article about them though:

http://www.guns.com/experiments-with-ecus-12-gauge-uss-qwild-boarq-loads-4192.html

They are what I call Brenneke style with attached basewad. I have had no success using cushion leg wads as attached basewads though.

Food for thought.

Longbow

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Tony,

I'd start with Rem and Federal, shoot them an email. They may reveal their source or brand of sabot.

I emailed Barnes about their muzzleloader sabots, telling them I liked them alot and used them for range practice with cast lead so I didnt burn cash on their expensive bullets. Saved them for actual hunting. They were more than happy to help me source those sabots.

Something similar might work for you. Let them know you practice at the range and want to load a lead practice round with the same sabot. They might be happy to help you. And if they say "call barnes, they supply us with the sabot" you might be in even greater luck, barnes was only too happy to help me.

[TonyfromItaly]

Thank you Whiterabbit.

you must have read my mind. I wrote Barnes 3 hours ago. Federal puts a barnes sabot in their copper expander 12 ga slug.
I have even found a distributor in italy that would buy great quantities and then sell them to us. So there would be convenience for them as well.

they would sell thousands of them here. A lot of hunters and shootes reload here both shotgun slugs and rifle.

and now, latest news is that gunshop are taking advantage of the situation. A box of 5 federal copper slugs is going for 35 euro.. 45 bucks.......

now i wait their reply.

[Frosty Boolit]

Trying to be creative here, Maybe some sort of molten plastic or durable wax onto a column of steel shot and loaded with caution. My not be the most consistent thing though. Smaller shot might be more consistent.

[TonyfromItaly]

we took solid copper bar and used a lathe to make this bullet inspired by the foster slug. It weights 32 grams, about 1 1/8 oz lenght is 24 mm, about 15/16 inch

i am having a few made based on this pattern, but not on a lathe, but on a wax casting process.

then i will test them on a target.

[jmort]

That is a great design. I expect it will work well. Now we will need you to sell them to us over here.

[TonyfromItaly]

That is a great design. I expect it will work well. Now we will need you to sell them to us over here.

:smile: :smile:

let's hope they do not outlaw lead bullets in USA for deer and hog hunting.

[jmort]

It is happening here in California, big surprise. No lead in Condor areas now and the State is moving in the direction of a total ban on lead ammunition for hunting. California and the Euro-Zone are pretty much on the same page. Seriously, your slugs are fantastic, and it appears that you are a man of action as you got this done quick. I want to see the results of casting your slugs.

[longbow]

Looks good Tony!

Not sure how well copper will cast. I guess you will be finding out shortly. It will likely depend on alloy a lot.

Zinc should well for casting especially die cast grade zinc alloys. Zinc should be cheaper than copper too.

Another option might be to steal Brenneke's idea and use a solid slug with attached basewad.

It will be interesting to see your results. As long as you can get the HB slugs made economically they should work better than lead Fosters ~ no distortion of the skirt on firing. They should retain their shape and fly well.

Good luck.

Longbow

[TonyfromItaly]

i have tried casting zinc in a mold i made, here it is . however regular propane does not work for melting it, not hot enough.
This one is about 1 0z 28 grams
I used propane + oxygen torch. However they are very hard when c ompared to lead. So i do not know the effect on a wild hog, maybe they will not deform and go throught without knocking it.

[Blammer]

If you get a good meplat on that slug, it will do some SERIOUS damage on it's way through the animal, I would make that the least of my worries. Cheap and accurate would be my 2 main concerns.

I'm thinking a cheap lathe to make some copper slugs, once you know what you want and what works, and you're in business. :)

[Blammer]

Have you looked at these and can you get them?

http://www.sgammo.com/product/12-gauge/5-rds-12-gauge-ddupleks-275-inch-monolit28-1-oz-slug-am1228

[TonyfromItaly]

thank you for the idea Blammer. I just wrote those guys. They are in the baltic countries, and if they can ship the slugs (not the loaded ammo) we are in business.

as far as casting copper............ copper melts at higher temperature then alluminum, so a steel cast should have to be made, however in the cooling process, the copper could have some distortion or cracks.

a friend of mine does custom jewelry for one of those big name fashion houses in Florence italy, and he will make me a few slugs, using their technology.

basically they make a rubber mold, and inject with wax. They they attach the wax slugs into a fusion tree and cover it with a plaster base liquid. When it has hardened, they proceed with puring molten copper. After cooling had taken place, they break up the plaster and we have a little bonzai tree with 30 copper slugs attached to it. Pliers to break them loose and we are ready to load'em up.

[TonyfromItaly]

These are the wax molds, ready to go to fusion.

[jmort]

Keep the updates coming. I can't wait to see your cast copper slugs. Then it ill be time for mass production and distribution world-wide.

[longbow]

I think the biggest problem with investment casting will be consistency from slug to slug and lot to lot.

Modern methods can produce pretty close tolerances but even for smoothbore, tolerances will have to be very tight to maintain consistent accuracy.

I will be interested to see how these turn out... and of course how well they shoot which is the most important.

Longbow

[a.squibload]

The slugs in post 17 look great.

The comment about TMJ slugs made me think,
would copper-plated lead slugs qualify?
The lead would be encapsulated or covered like TMJ.
If plating would satisfy the regulations it would be
less expensive than solid copper.

[TonyfromItaly]

I think the biggest problem with investment casting will be consistency from slug to slug and lot to lot.

Modern methods can produce pretty close tolerances but even for smoothbore, tolerances will have to be very tight to maintain consistent accuracy.

I will be interested to see how these turn out... and of course how well they shoot which is the most important.

Longbow


in fact, we are doing things by trial and error!
we have so far learned that from the pattern made on a lathe, the wax slugs get a bit smaller(they shrink as the wax solidifies) , and we will see after the casting how smaller they get (diameter).



once we know how much the finished product shrinks, we can then redo the pattern on the lathe to make it come out the diameter we want.

a little slack con be taken by using a thinner o thicker wad.

will keep you informed.

[longbow]

I am assuming that you plan to use these slugs in shotcups so that should allow a little leeway in exact size. If set so the size at max tolerance just fits the shotcup for a slightly snug fit then a few thou under might not hurt.

Alternately you might consider making the slugs with ribs or bands and slightly oversize then run them through a sizing die to make them exact. That would ensure same fit every time.

Just a couple of thoughts.

I hope you are successful whatever you do.

Longbow

[docone31]

Pink wax won't shrink so much. Also you can plate it to size for casting.
Plate, or rather electroform it to size with shrinkage. Make a mold, shoot a wax. When cast, it should be the size you want. All the rest also.
Do you vaccum cast, or centrifigal cast?
Once you get the size, it shouldn't be hard to mass produce.
I am a jeweler. People say, just make a mold and shoot it. Not that easy. Their model has to be "bumped" up a tad. This is without distortion in the finished product.
However, a shotcup does fix a few Gremlins.

[TonyfromItaly]

docone, it is vacuum cast, Alessio uses centrifugal for very high temp casting like titanium. He has technology for 0 reduction, but the costs are exhorbitant. We are trying to make it cost effective for me and my other friends.

however, the finished product came out yesterday, i have yet to see it, but the shrinkage is about 0.4 mm in inches 0.0157

so the diameter is 16.40 mm instead of 16.80 in inches .646 instead of .661


will post pictures tomorrow.

[TonyfromItaly]

here they are, polished out of casting.

they push easily out of the barrel of my beretta double. I used thick wall BP steel 24 wad.

next week will test them in a pressure barrel (velocity and pressure) and shooting at 30 yards (average wild hog shot here in the thick bush)

[longbow]

Those look very nice!

Keep us posted on results. You may be onto something here.

How many did you get made in this run?

What sort of diameter consistency did you get?

What is the weight?

I will definitely be looking forward to your results.

Longbow

[cris]

Hello Tony,
Italy has a laboratory specialized in bullet manufacturing and development. They produce copper bullets by the millions and are the R&D unit for some of the main ammunition companies in EU. They moved from northern EU to Italy one year ago and have the technology and know-how to help you. They focus on military and law enforcement products, but if you talk to them on a commercially interesting way they might be willing to help you.
Look on the web for the book “il colpo di rimbalzo”, the guy who wrote it is in charge, you can find his contact data on the inside. The book can be downloaded for free, you do not need to buy anything.

[TonyfromItaly]

the one bullet that is the copy of Lyman sabot weights 325 grains or about 21 grams

the other bullet i designed instead weights 388 grains or about 25 grams.


diameter is fairly consistent, not perfect as i would have liked. We learned a few things by making this batch, next one will be better.

one batch makes about 40 bullets.

i hope the bullet company in northern italy is run by open minded italian like me.. Unfortunatly here it is not like in USA, if you contact a company with a good idea, they often do not respond, and if you are a bit persistent they tell you to "get lost".

:cry:

[cris]

Are you looking for an expanding bullet or a solid slug?

[TonyfromItaly]

cris, a 12 ga slug has a big enough front section that it does not really need to expand to drop the hog on its feet. It needs however to release energy upon impact. If it goes trough like a FMJ, little energy is release in the tissues and the hog keeps going. I hope that my bullet will somehow distort upon impact. In my opinion the most effective lead slugs are foster's types, that flatten up, or distort on impact, releasing energy into the tissues, and rarely passing the animal trought.

[longbow]

I think if the slug has a large meplat and sharp edges it will do well without expanding... as long as they have some mass. At least 1 oz. would be good and heavier would probably be better.

The slugs you have seem to be in the 3/4 oz. to 7/8 oz. range now so maybe a little light but possibly capable of fairly high velocity. Testing in an expansion medium will tell the tale after you do the pressure barrel tests.

If you get good hunting accuracy and decent penetration at 50m you are heading down the right road.

I don't think you will get expansion from a copper slug without a hollow point and precut "petals" that bend open sort of like the Dupleks. I don't think you will need expansion with a flat nose 12 ga. slug.

Looking forward to you pressure test info and range testing.

Longbow

[TonyfromItaly]

hello, pressure barrel test done today

hull T4/70 cheddite
primer cx2000
wad BP steel 24
roll crimp
powder 1,85 grams of SIPE (double base available in italy at reasonable price, 29 euro 1 kg)

pressure 812 bar 11,777psi V1 velocity (1 meter from barrel) 436 m/s 1430 ft/s

[longbow]

Sounds good so far.

Now for some photos of targets!

Longbow