Short range report 38-72 (photos)

[KirkD]

Boys, this will not be a fancy range report; I'm a little short on time this week. However, here's a quick one .....

I've been wrestling with the decision as to what rifle to deer hunt with this year. The season is coming up in mid-November, so it was time to make a decision. I've decided to use my original Winchester Model 1895 chambered for the early 38-72 cartridge. This rifle was received in the warehouse August 8, 1904 and shipped June 3, 1905 and has a tapered octagon barrel.

For tradition's sake, I wanted to use the original cast bullet, a bunch of which I cast from an original Winchester 38-72 mould. I have never been able to get that bullet to stabilize ..... it always wobbles slightly, giving so-so groups at 100 yards. I figured I'd give it one more try using cotton filler to see if that helped at all. After 10 rounds, I decided that the original bullet is not going to do it, no matter what I do.

Fortunately, I had ordered a custom mould from Accurate Moulds that drops a 264 grain, gas check bullet that I can use in both my 38-72 and 38-55. The load was 24 grains of 5744 for a velocity of 1,492 fps with the 265 grain bullet. I only had time for five quick shots and no time to cool the barrel between shots. Up went the target at 100 yards. The five rounds gave a group of 1 & 7/8" at 100 yards, using my shooting bag as a rest and using the original open iron sights. Good enough for deer hunting this fall. For the next few weeks I'm going to practice with this rifle offhand, but first I'm going to adjust the windage a bit. Right now, it shoots about 2" to the left at 100 yards.

Here's a photo of the rifle .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/95-close-1.jpg

and here's another one showing more of it, including that gorgeous crescent butt ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/95-far.jpg

Here's a photo of the mould and the GC bullet. To the left is the original bullet that I have given up trying to stabilize (faster, slower, still wobbles) dropped by the original Winchester mould ....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/bullets-and-moulds.jpg

Finally, here's a photo of the five shot group at 100 yards .....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Range%20Results/95-target.jpg

[TCFAN]

Looks like a nice rifle to hunt with.I like it..I really like it.Wish I had one to play with that I could take hunting.......Terry

[rockrat]

One of my favorite calibers

[smithywess]

Kirk,

A fine group which I'm sure will serve you well in the field. I prefer the shape of the Accurate Mould bullet. It seems to have a longer bearing surface and is gas checked as well. I seem to recall Mr Venturino recommending gas checked bullets at least in his B.P.C.R rifles over plain based ones. What was the case volume that the 24 grains of 5744 ? Did you use the cotton as a filler in your 'good group' as well?

A very fine rifle too. In good external shape. Thanks for the posting.

[KirkD]

Smithywess, I find that in general, a gas checked bullet will be more accurate than a plain base one. This particular load didn't have any cotton filler in it. There is about 1" air space between the powder and the bullet base when the cartridge is standing up. I want to try cotton filler with this bullet. I've already done some tests over the chronograph and will have to drop the powder charge to about 21.5 grains to keep the same velocity. How accuracy is affected remains to be seen.

[Jack Stanley]

Now that is one classy rifle , the deer it meets this fall should be honored to be introduced to it and the neat little flat nose pal of his . ;)

Jack

[OverMax]

Curious about its brass. Is there a substitute that can be re-sized for its use from a more modern cartridge?
Nice 1895 Win. Which barrel length 24-26-28? Always wondered. In its barrel lengths. Is there one model/barrel length more coveted by collectors than its two others? Enjoyed your thread & pix Sir.

O/M

[ajjohns]

Man oh man you're gonns have fun! The deer are gonna have to watch out, looks like there will be some venison on the table.

[KirkD]

Curious about its brass. Is there a substitute that can be re-sized for its use from a more modern cartridge?
Nice 1895 Win. Which barrel length 24-26-28? Always wondered. In its barrel lengths. Is there one model/barrel length more coveted by collectors than its two others? Enjoyed your thread & pix Sir.

O/M
Brass can be made from 444 brass that is resized and stretched. The cartridge shown in the photo of the target is made from 444. However, I have purchased a bunch of Jamison 38-72 brass and much prefer that. It is excellent stuff and properly headstamped. You can get it from Buffalo Arms.

The barrel length on mine is 26". I believe the standard barrel length for most calibers was 24". As for what collectors want most, it would be the tapered octagon barrel. They were made only for the 38-72 and 40-72. An umessed with '95 with a tapered octagon barrel is very hard to find. The ultimate, is a flat side '95 with a tapered octagon barrel in either 40-72 or 38-72.

[Skipper]

Brass can be made from 444 brass that is resized and stretched

The 405 case from Hornady is easier to work with; just a run through the sizing die.

[Maven]

KirkD, Nice shooting! I have 2 questions about the original mold. First, would you be able to get a larger diameter, and one hopes, more accurate shooting by Beagling it? Second, would paper patching the original CB [to improve bore fit] help with accuracy?

[KirkD]

KirkD, Nice shooting! I have 2 questions about the original mold. First, would you be able to get a larger diameter, and one hopes, more accurate shooting by Beagling it? Second, would paper patching the original CB [to improve bore fit] help with accuracy?
My groove diameter slugs at .3775 -.3780. The original bullets, cast from wheel weights cool to about .379 and I size and lube them to .379. I don't think the problem is the sized diameter, I think it is that long nose. It might work if it was a bore-riding nose, but it isn't. My lands diameter slugs at about .375, but the nose diameter at its thickest measures about .365. I suspect the way the bullet enters the rifling can be a little off-axis without a bore riding nose to guide it in. So the bullet spins up in the tube already slightly off and when it leaves the barrel that wobble increases. I notice some bullets wobble more than others. For example, yesterday at 100 yards, three shots gave a 1 & 1/4" group, which is dadgummed good, but a fourth shot opened the group up to 4 & 5/8", and the hole was slightly, but unmistakably elliptical, showing it had been wobbling badly. Examining all my targets, must bullets have a slight wobble, some not much at all, and some a big wobble. I suspect it is all in how they get started down the bore without a bore riding nose to do proper bore alignment at entry. I notice in the 1896 Winchester catalogue that 38-72 ammo was available right from the get go in jacketed. I have an original 38-72 cartridge here and I think it would give good accuracy, because the jacketed soft point bullet has a more normal shape.

Bottom Line: I think it is that massive nose, hanging way out there with no rifling support whatsoever, that allows some bullets to start wobbling.

[fouronesix]

Well Done!!

Not sure it's the long, unsupported nose but it certainly could be. Usually long, unsupported noses are not conducive to good accuracy.

I've never had a plain base shoot as well as a GC over smokeless in any gun or caliber... other things being equal. In a couple of original 38-55s I kept trying to use plain base bullets over smokeless and could never get them to fully stabilize, no matter the load, alloy, sized diameter, lube type, etc.-- until I had a GC bullet mold made to my specs. Then instant success and accuracy. Even the short nosed, long shanked plain base bullets, sized correctly, never would stabilize consistently.

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
Nice work! I wonder if the original bullet would work better with black powder as it was intended. If they were made in the original 20/1 alloy that Winchester referenced and loaded over 72 grs of b.p. the nose would likely bump up to provide some forward guidance.......

Smokeless powder was only used in factory loadings with jacketed bullets.

w30wcf