Hardness of #2 Alloy

[milrifle]

In Lyman's CBH 4th edition, they give 2 formulae for making #2 Alloy, which they say has a BHN of 15. The one I tried was 9 lbs of wheel weights 1/2 lb of lead and 1/2 lb of tin. Only problem is.......it's not 15 BHN. At least not immediately. Maybe after a few weeks? My question is this. When they say Lyman #2 is 15 BHN, is that air cooled, water quenched, day of casting, 6 months after casting......?

[RobS]

Not the day of and not water quenched for a BHN of 15. Antimony based boolits take time to age and if arsenic is present which it is in your WW alloy it will take less time to age than an alloy without it. You will see a difference in a week and be closer at 2 weeks time however the alloy will continue to age well past two weeks before the alloy settles in. I call it good at 2 weeks for most practical purposes when I use air cooled boolits.

[Chill Wills]

I do not know how it could be 15 BHN or called Lyman #2.
Here is why.
Lyman #2 is called out at 95-5-5- Pb-Sn-SB.
The alloy you have is something like WW with only 3-4% antimony for the base metal and then by reducing it further by cutting it with more lead and some tin, it will yield maybe a 91.5-5-3.5 alloy. Your mix is a little light on antimony.

I hope this helps - good luck.

[williamwaco]

I suspect.

It is softer than expected.

Wheel weights are not as hard as they used to be.
I expect the formula is no longer appropriate.


.

[454PB]

yup, wheel weights are no where near 5% antimony.

[Defcon-One]

9 lbs of wheel weights 1/2 lb of lead and 1/2 lb of tin yields an alloy that is 5.26% Tin, 2.7% Antimony, 92% Lead and a bit of Arsenic.

Hardness would be around 12.5 BHN air cooled, after a couple weeks.

New Clip-on wheel weights are no more than 3% Antimony, some say much less. That is why you are so far off.

Try this (I use a digital scale!):

10 lbs. COWW lead
3.66 lbs. Linotype
1.13 lbs. 50/50 solder

It will be very close to REAL lyman #2!

Of course there are a million other ways to get there.

[milrifle]

Thanks guys. I wondered if that might have be based on old WW data, but it is in the 4th edition which I thought was a relatively new release. Of course, that doesn't mean they updated everything. Perhaps I should consider a different alloy.

Defcon One, Your allow has 50/50 solder. What do you think of the new lead free solders? They are something like 97% tin with minute amounts of other stuff like copper and cost about the same thing as 50/50. I'm thinking the lead free stuff is a better buy. No sense in paying tin prices for lead. What do you think?

[Chill Wills]

I had a typo in my above post, my Pb value was 5% high.:oops: >100%
Defcon-One's numbers look good.


Milrifle,

Is there a reason you need Lyman #2?

Most cast bullet requirements can be met at a much lower alloy cost. An alloy of 15BHN can be had other ways and almost free if you are a scrounger like me.

[kelbro]

The pseudo Lyman #2 alloy mix may not have all of the exact percentages and BHN but will certainly perform well in most any hunting application.

Don't sweat the petty stuff.

[milrifle]

Is there a reason you need Lyman #2?



Well......Frankly, I don't know what I'm doing. Straight COWW's seemed to be too soft in my 03-A3. I was trying to work up a load and when I got about 2 grains over the starting load, my group size went from the 2-4 inch range to the 2-4 foot range. Seriously! Some of the shots were not even on the paper. I assumed I had exceeded the pressure limit of my alloy and was looking for something a little harder. My meager lead supply consists of COWW's and pure lead from stick on's. I have not tried water quenching because my mold does not drop consistently and I've read that the hardness will be all over the board if some take longer to drop into the water than others. I just didn't want the inconsistency while trying to work up a load, so I stuck with air cooling. Adding tin just seemed like the easiest way to get my alloy harder with the materials I had on hand (WW's) or could buy locally (solder). Perhaps it is time to place an order with Rotometals? I'd also be intersted in other options.

Thanks,

Milrifle

[454PB]

While tin adds a little hardness, it is a very expensive way to do that. You need antimony for adding hardness. There are a lot of ways to add antimony, from Rotometals, adding hardened shot, to our forum members selling type metals.

However, before you assume your alloy is too soft, there are other means and methods to consider.

You don't say what velocities you are trying to attain, what powder(s) you are using, what boolit and it's dimensions, or what lube is used.

I also think you should at least try water dropping or heat treating. I, too, have some moulds that tend to hang on the boolit when water dropping. I don't hardness test every one of them, but I haven't seen that causing any problems with the batch.

[milrifle]

454,

I was not trying for any particular velocity, just wanting something that will make a group I could be proud of at 100 yds. (1" would be great, but I wouldn't complain about a consistant 2" one.). I was just looking to see if it would home in on a load. I was using Reloader 7 behind a Lee 150 gr. flat nose that thankfully casts large. It is supposed to be .309, but drops at .311. My rifle slugs at .309, so .311 suits me fine. I'm lubing with 45-45-10 LLA, JPW, mineral spirits, then sizing/gas checking using a .311 Lee sizer die, then re-lubing with the 45-45-10. I started at 28 gr, I think and by about 30 or 30.5, I was missing the paper. Went back down and accuracy improved again.

[Defcon-One]

...Defcon One, Your allow has 50/50 solder. What do you think of the new lead free solders? They are something like 97% tin with minute amounts of other stuff like copper and cost about the same thing as 50/50. I'm thinking the lead free stuff is a better buy. No sense in paying tin prices for lead. What do you think?

I am all for the best bargain on Tin. Any Solder, including Lead Free is a good bet, as long as it does not contain something that you don't want. I also think that good, known content pewter is a good bet and affordable as well.

For me it is all about the cost. With Lead Free solder now required by law, I have found some good deals on lead based solders that can no longer be used on plumbing. That is why the 50/50 and 60/40 are on my list.

Basically, Tin is Tin and I'll get it where I can at the best price that I can find. If Lead Free is your best option, then I would say go for it!

Also, Linotype is my prefered way to harden an alloy!

DC-1

[Defcon-One]

Try this with 95% Tin, 5% Sb/LF Solder(I use a digital scale!):

10 lbs. COWW lead
2.86 lbs. Linotype
0.56 lbs. Lead Free solder

[Griz44mag]

I don't understand how anyone can use wheel weights in a weight to weight ratio and expect a specific hardness as a result, since the wheelweights I have have tested run from 9BH up to 15BH. Get a hardness tester, test the materials you want to use, and use a little ratio math to get the right quantities of each material. It's so simple to do, I don't understand why so many struggle with it. Just test it, and you will KNOW what you have and how to mix it.

[popper]

5% is a WHOLE LOT of TIN. Add another 20# of COWW at least for #2 clone. WD for hardness.

[Defcon-One]

Lyman #2 (5% Tin, 5% Antimony, 90% Lead), he may not need it, but that is what he was trying to make, right?

Lyman #2 has 5% Tin and that is what he asked for!

[milrifle]

I don't understand how anyone can use wheel weights in a weight to weight ratio and expect a specific hardness as a result, since the wheelweights I have have tested run from 9BH up to 15BH. Get a hardness tester, test the materials you want to use, and use a little ratio math to get the right quantities of each material. It's so simple to do, I don't understand why so many struggle with it. Just test it, and you will KNOW what you have and how to mix it.

I understand how a hardness tester can tell me what the hardness is of an alloy, but I guess I don't understand how I can determine what is in the mix that made it that particular hardness. Say, for instance antimony hardens 3 times as well as tin. How will I know whether I have x amount of antimony or just 3x amount of tin resulting in the same hardness?

[Defcon-One]

When he says, "get the right quantities of each material" I think that he is referring to the materials that you are mixing. (ie. 10% Soft Lead, 40% COWW, 50% Range Lead!)

There is no way to accurately judge your Alloy content and percentages of each element with just a hardness tester!

[454PB]

Even a 1 to 10 tin to lead alloy is only 11 BHN. As a comparison, linotype (4-12-84) is about 22 BHN. Again.....while tin adds a little hardness, it's the antimony that works best.

There's really no way to know what the Sn/Sb/Pb ratios are without the proper test equipment. For an experienced caster, the way an alloy casts, the "looks" of the boolit, and it's weight and dimensions are usually the answer to whether more Sn is needed.

[milrifle]

Thanks guys. You are great. I'm gonna do some looking at the alloy calculator and see what I can come up with. Also, the ones I have cast have probably aged enough to load, so maybe I can shoot some this weekend and see how they do. Thanks again.

[milrifle]

OK guys. I downloaded the alloy calculator in the sticky. It looks like one would still have to know the consistancy of their wheel weights in order to use it effectively. I guess I could play with the percentages of Pb, Sn, and Sb in the spreadsheet until I got a hardness that matched my WW ingots and go from there, but.........Am I missing something? I guess I still don't understand what Griz44mag is saying. Sorry I'm not getting it. I appreciate your patience.

[454PB]

Well it looks like you're beginning to understand. As Griz44mag said, wheel weights are all over the place as to content. I started using them over 40 years ago, and some say they were higher in tin and antimony content back then.....if that's true, I was unaware of it. In order to get a large batch of wheel weights to be consistent you would be to melt them all at once. Most of us are melting anywhere from 20 to 60 pounds at a time.

I recommend you don't get too hung up on actual alloy percentages. Find a hardness and fluidity that suits you needs and do your best to do it consistently.

[Griz44mag]

I don't mix for elemental content, but for hardness. That's a very simple ratio.
If I mix 1 pound of 10BH with 1 pound of 20BH, I get 2 pounds of 15BH. By using the percentage of each by weight, knowing the hardness of each, a final hardness is very easy to design, without wasting a bunch of material or fuel. I see no reason for the mess of water dropping, just cast what you need in the first place. Since I use range lead, wheel weights, roof flashings, x-ray bricks, or anything else I can get my hands on, there would be absolutely no way of knowing what is actually in it, and I don't care what's in it. All I care about is how hard it is and how smooth it will cast. By following the hardness vs pressure chart, I have completely solved all issues with lead hardness in my casting. If a final mix with the correct hardness does not cast well, I add 1% tin and it will. The 1% tin does not change the hardness enough to make any difference. The Lee Second edition hardness vs pressure guidelines work. Period. Along with that, fit and proper lube are also very important. It's all parts of a balancing act to produce the best results. Those who cast and don't care what they cast are fine for what they expect out of their hobby. I wanted something better, as a result I have home cast loads that do not lead and are very accurate. So I'm happy too!
The tester kit is less than 60.00 bucks, really cheap compared to the rest of our shooting toys.

[runfiverun]

i try to batch my ww's as big as i can.
i have a big ol pot that will melt 150 lbs at a time easily.
last winter i batch processed my entire pile of ingots and then run ingots from each pile back through the pot together trying for one consistent batch.
i now have over 2500 lbs of one big alloy that has the same bhn.
i still don't know what the exact consisteny is but they have some tin added to each ingot.

i just waterdrop for my rifles, i try to give my waterdropped boolits a few months to settle out.
6 months minimum [if possible]
sometimes this isn't possible so i give them 3-4 weeks minimum.
this seems to make them a whole lot more consistent in hardness even though they are not all exactly dropped into the water at the same time from the mold.
you could oven heat water drop them for better consistency of the batch.
i'd eyeball cull them before i sized them.
i use linotype and ww's plus tin to make an alloy i call 4/6 by adding 3.5% tin and 3% antimony to another big batch of clean clip on ww's [i keep separate from my big batch of tinned ww alloy]
it keeps my tin just below my antimony content.
i can't tell you the exact composition of the alloy but it is consistent across several smaller batches of alloy as the main batch is consistent. [heck the lino even though from ancient pigs] is probably not perfect
but that's probably the best we can really do at home...
there are probably a few other things you could do that would help too.
like try your loads over a chronograph, i'd bet you just broke over 2k velocity ,and also had velocity variations going on.
lowering the load would help, as would a filler,along with a slghtly harder [waterdropped] alloy.

[Balta]

I have boght some Lyman #2 alloy..it cast really nice but it was so expensie,that it hurts.
Then i mix 50% of lead and 50% Lyman#2 and waterquneched..i put 1 or 2 ingots of COWW to provide aresenic presents in full 20 lb melter-pot.
Friend tested hardness and it was in range 17-19 BHN, after 20 days .
I like little harrder for my 9 mm....
Using pure Lyman alloy is expensive..

[popper]

milrifle - go for 50/50 COWW & Pb (WD), add shot or sulfur (or both) to get the hardness up so you can get good groups @ 100. Sulfur is cheaper but the shot adds Sb & As, hardening agents. !% tin if you need it for fill out, it doesn't do much else.