Leading up 686..

[tcpsyn]

I really tried my best not to post, everything I could.. honest.

I've got a S&W 686P 7 shot revolver, I generally shoot .38 special in it and it leads up so badly that I can't stand shooting the thing. I can shoot it for 30 rounds and then scrub for 2 hours.... every time.

I've tried everything and now I'm stuck.

First off, I tried just dealing with the lead...
Lewis Lead remover, Chor boy, Chor boy chucked on a drill, JB Bore Paste ... I have no problem cleaning up the bore, but the cylinder is a nightmare.
I tried running a bore snake through after every reload.
I tried running lead away cloth through the cylinder.

I tried sizing my bullets from 357, 358, 359, result seems to be near the same regardless.

I tried a little lube, I tried a lot of lube, I tried in between.

I had a gunsmith ream the cylinder throats to 358, and check the forcing cone... all as it should be.

I tested my lead hardness with a lee hardness tester, if my eyes are right... 10.4BHN
I generally load 3.5-4.0gr HP-38.

I slugged the bore, and noted that I was unable to then push the slug through the cylinders (which is why I had the throats reamed)

I like the gun, a lot, but I'm at a point where I'm out of ideas. Could someone please point me in another direction? Why are the throats leading up and proving so difficult to clean?

I know it's been covered a million times. I've been reading the posts for a year. I haven't yet found something that explains this particular situation.

[TCLouis]

This might be the problem . . .

I slugged the barrel, and noted that I was unable to then push the slug through the cylinders (which is why I had the throats reamed)

[tcpsyn]

Would reaming the throats so that the slug fit correctly not resolve that issue? I had a gunsmith ream them to the bore size today, tested it out.. still scrubbing, 2.5 hours later.

[cbrick]

tcpsyn, welcome to the forum.

If I am reading your posts correcctly it is the throats leading, not the bore? Does continued shooting cause the leading to spread into and past the forcing but with only a few shots the leading is in the throats only?

Is this correct?

You didn't mention what bullet your using, a wadcutter?

More info will make it much easier to give you an informed answer rather than a bunch, scattered thoughts.

Rick

[tcpsyn]

Hi Rick,

Not exactly, it leads everywhere, chambers, forcing cone, and bore, but I don't have a hard time cleaning the forcing cone or bore.

I generally shoot cast TL358-158-SWC as dropped (.358-.359), water quenched, and tumble lubed with LLA out of .38 spec cases. I'm using wheel weight lead and range scraps.

I should take a picture next time. It doesn't look severe to me, especially in the chambers, but it is very, very difficult to remove completely.

It may be worthy of note that I have leading issues in all the guns that I shoot lead bullets in, an SP101 357, and a Walther PPS in 9mm.

Thanks.

[Bardo]

Have you tried loading a boolit and then pulling it and seeing if the boolit is still the same size like .358? It could be that your expander plug isnt big enough especially if they are newer dies. So it could be sizing down the boolit as you are seating it. It might not be the gun it may be how you are reloading. I have learned this the hard way. Good luck

Bardo

[462]

Also, it's possible that the seating die is swaging the boolit.

[bobthenailer]

I would think that theres something wrong with the cast bullet ?
ive owened at least 25 S&W revolvers over the past 40 + years and never had a barrel leading or cyl leading issue that could not be removed simpley or not needed at all in the barrel.

[gray wolf]

I had a gunsmith ream them to the bore size today,
tested it out.. still scrubbing,
Why bore size, wouldn't a tad over be better for the Cyl. throats ?

[tcpsyn]

Why bore size, wouldn't a tad over be better for the Cyl. throats ?

Oh, yeah not exactly to the bore size, just so the slug snuggly fit through the chambers.
Originally it took excessive pressure to push one through.

[tcpsyn]

Have you tried loading a boolit and then pulling it and seeing if the boolit is still the same size like .358? It could be that your expander plug isnt big enough especially if they are newer dies. So it could be sizing down the boolit as you are seating it. It might not be the gun it may be how you are reloading. I have learned this the hard way. Good luck

Bardo

I had not even thought of that, that's probably exactly the issue, because it's the only thing I haven't looked at. Good call, I'll check it out.

Thank you.

[Bardo]

Let us know what you find out. If you do need a bigger expander plug I would get a RCBS cowboy one. Thats what I use in my 45 LC and 32 H&R mag. I wouldnt get the lyman m die. Not saying it wont work I just havent had as good of luck with them. Also you can have lathesmith (a member here) make you one. He made one for my 41 mag and it works great.

Bardo

[GP100man]

I agree, the case or the seater may be swaging the boolit down a.001" or so.

Pull 1 & see how it fits the throats.

Another thought, how smooth a finish is in the throats ???

[ColColt]

I switched to a Lyman M die and didn't have that previous problem anymore. It works great.

[tcpsyn]

I pulled a bullet last night, and it measured right at .358.
I'm using dillon dies, I did notice that my seating die had the reversible pin set for round nose bullets though, so I switched it over to flat nose. Doubt that'd make much of a difference, but I'll give it a try.

[tcpsyn]

I agree, the case or the seater may be swaging the boolit down a.001" or so.

Pull 1 & see how it fits the throats.

Another thought, how smooth a finish is in the throats ???

I'm not sure, but they did look like this before I had them reamed..

http://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/s-w-gunsmithing/3045-possible-cylinder-throat-issue.html

[tcpsyn]

I went out today, and for the first time ever, no leading.
I shot the same boolits, but in 357 loads, and before I left I shot 1 cylinder of jackets.
Came home, and cleaned the gun in about 5 minutes. Absolutely no lead caked in the throats.

I'll give it another shot tomorrow with 38s. I don't mind shooting 357s, if that's what it takes, but I have an awful lot more 38 brass.

[cbrick]

It's very possible that the improvemnet is simply because the 357 brass holds the front driving band inside the throats when the round is chambered. With the shorter 38 brass the front driving band is well short of reaching the throat, the chamber is loose enough that the cartridge lays on an angle and the bullet is not lined up with the throats. When fired the edge of the throat shaves the edge of the driving band starting the leading. The more the gun is fired the more accumulation of lead, it spreads to the forcing cone and then into the barrel.

I have a 686 that had this same problem. I was all set to fire lap the bore thinking I had a restriction at the barrel threads when I noticed that after only a couple of shots the leading was only in the throats, I fired a few more and there was leading on the forcing cone. After several more shots the leading had spread into and down the barrel. I eliminated all leading in this gun by simply switching bullets to H&G 503 by MP, the front driving band is inside the throats when chambered and the problem was solved.

This is what I was getting at with my first post and questions for you.

Rick

Edit: brain fade . . . It was my 624 in 44 special, not 686.

[MtGun44]

Ditch the TL design. Get a good Keith or other design with a big conventional lube
groove, fill with LBT soft blue or NRA 50-50.

I recommend Lyman 358477 or 358429. I shoot either of these at full magnum
velocities or .38 Spl velocites all the time with excellent accy and ZERO leading.

Bill

[tcpsyn]

Ditch the TL design.

Does that make sense? Same bullet and lube in 357 cases didn't lead at all...
Or maybe it was following up with jackets that cleaned it out.
I'll have to go back to the range and see which resolved the problem, but for the first time since I've owned the gun, it took me about 5 minutes to clean.

I'm not opposed to swapping bullets and lube, though after shooting 100+ rounds yesterday without leading, I don't see logically how that could be the issue.

[canyon-ghost]

Leave out the jacketed, I betcha they aren't helping. I had guys send me dies that sized down the bullet on seating (Dillon was one of them). I use RCBS because they are usually built for reloaders and cast bullets (others are also).

[MtGun44]

OK. Missed the post with success in .357 cases. Still, IME, TL is a marginal system with
oddball successes and failures. It has the great advantage of not requiring a lubrisizer,
but it is iffy and works for some and not for others.

The standard lube groove designs seem to work over a much wider range of pressures,
diameters, alloys, powders, etc.

Haven't worked with the TL very much, tried it a bit, did not like the sticky boolits holding
dirt and crud, and had poor performance in a few guns. We get a lot of reports of success
and (at least it seems like it) even more reports of failures with TL. I am always suspicious
of these designs when there is leading. Keep at it and you might make it work.

I can just about guarantee that a 358477 with NRA 50-50 will work superbly over a wide
range of velocities and pressures with almost any alloy. This painless versatility is enough
to make me stay away from the TL designs. If you do not have a lubrisizer, I can see why
you would want to work this out, but it can be frustrating.

Best of luck.

Bill

[tcpsyn]

Aye. I'm not opposed to pan lubing for a while, and stepping up to a lubrisizer if it works out, but now I know that with LLA and these exact bullets with this exact alloy, lead free shooting is attainable.

I hope to learn that it's the jackets blasting the lead out, because I have significantly more .38 brass than .357.

Perhaps it's just having the throats reamed that resolved the issue. I test fired immediately after getting the gun back from the gunsmith with horrible results, but I didn't clean the gun first, and now that I think about it, it was probably filthy.

[MasS&W]

Does it lead differently when you shoot standard 357 loads?

What pressure 38s you running/how soft is your lead? You may be getting gas cutting.

[tcpsyn]

Does it lead differently when you shoot standard 357 loads?


I still have to test that. I don't think there's been a time that I've shot only 357s.


What pressure 38s you running/how soft is your lead? You may be getting gas cutting.

I'm running around 15,900 CUP 837 FPS using HP-38. Lead is 10.4 BHN

The Magnum loads are substantially higher pressure. About double, using 2400. Lead is still 10.4 BHN

[Bjornb]

You have solved the problem. Some 357 revolvers don't like 38 spl brass. My Colt Python would lead terribly, for all the reasons you listed in your posts. Sent it back to Colt, no improvement. Local GS owner suggested using 357 cases, problem solved instantly. As for ditching the TL boolits; I shoot several hundred Lee 148gr WC non-TLs every week, all tumble lubed with Recluse TL, zero leading. My load is 5 gr Unique. YMMV


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[tcpsyn]

That's what I was afraid of. Not a huge deal, but Ill have to get some more 357 brass.

Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt using Tapatalk 2

[MasS&W]

In my experience lube plays second fiddle to hardness in wheelgun leading. I have run unsized unlubed boolits in my 38 without any leading whatsoever. The difference is I run nearly pure lead (75% pure to 25% ww, air cooled). I would suggest that your boolits are too hard for the pressures the 38s operate at.

[tcpsyn]

Heh. Thanks for all the replies. So to recap:

Its the lube
Its the hardness
Its the brass
Its the bullet size
The gun "doesn't like" .38 spec
Its the bullet model
Its the seating die

I miss anything? :)


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[Maven]

tcpsyn, I don't think it's the CB or the lube, but it may be the velocity and pressure you're getting. Since you don't want to change everything at once, try this: Same CB, sized to the same diameter seated in .38Spl. v. .357Mag. brass with the same primers. Then choose a propellant which will -> ~1,000fps in your gun. Test II is the same, but now try the same CB sized to .359" v. .358".

About TL CB's: They work well enough IF you keep the fps to ~1,050 or a bit less. I had a Lee SWC-TL which was slightly undersized for my Ruger SBH (.44Mag.), yet was accurate at velocities no greater than 1,050fps (chronographed). Pushing it harder reduced accuracy and increased bore- and forcing cone leading.

.38Spl. v. .357Mag. brass: Neither of my .357Mags. are as accurate with the shorter brass than the longer. No cylinder or bore leading, but poor groups, regardless of the CB used. Btw, Brian Pearce has an article about this in the current issue of "Handloader."

[462]

Heh. Thanks for all the replies. So to recap:

Its the lube
Its the hardness
Its the brass
Its the bullet size
The gun "doesn't like" .38 spec
Its the bullet model
Its the seating die

I miss anything? :)


Sent from my HTC ThunderBolt using Tapatalk 2

Those are nothing less than what the various posters have discoverd to work for them. Unfortunately, no one sympton has only one remedy. Sometimes, much experimentation may be required, till it all comes right. For example, one of my guns needed two of your listed remedies, before it quit leading.

Take seriously the answers that people have taken their time of offer, continue experimenting, and eventually, you'll solve your problem.

[tcpsyn]

Oh, I do. Just chuckling.

No offence meant to anyone. I appreciate the suggestions.

[runfiverun]

there are other possibilitys.
but only one or two will be your fix.
it could be as simple as the brass squishing the boolits down.
the/a clinder[s] smaller etc...

[MtGun44]

Too hard, too small and inadequate lube are typical contributing factors.

Bill

[462]

Oh, I do. Just chuckling.

No offence meant to anyone. I appreciate the suggestions.

Cool, man.

[tcpsyn]

Well, I got back to the range, and had similar success in shooting just .38 out of two revolvers that previously leaded like mad. Must have been my seating die because everything else is the same.

Seem I'm ok now, but I can't definitively but my finger on what the problem was.
That's ok. I'll take it.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions.