Heavly compresed loads and primmers

[herbert buckland]

I shoot the 56-50 Spencer and am trying to get the most out of the short case,I can compress 45gr of 3f or 2f but find acuracy goes to hell with the CCI LPP I use,rifle primers seem to improve acuracy with this load.What I was wondering is there a limit that powder can be compresed before ignition becomes variable.The rifle is a tack driver with 40gr Wano PP and 395gr NEI bullet sized to .516 groove diameter is .514 and twist is 1 in 36.not sure of velocitys but in the heavly compresed loads I suspect there is a wide variation which would acount for the terable groups,around 12 inches at 100 yds,the 40 gr load will give a consistant 2 inch or smaller group which is the load that I will have to use.any one else ran across this problem with heavly compresed loads an is there a fix,I just want a bit more punch for pigs

[drcook]

I assume that cartridge has a standard sized primer pocket for rifle sized primers ? since you mentioned using them.

With that said, have you tried CCI BR2's or Fed 210M's (M = match, not magnum).

[herbert buckland]

I assume that cartridge has a standard sized primer pocket for rifle sized primers ? since you mentioned using them.

With that said, have you tried CCI BR2's or Fed 210M's (M = match, not magnum).I tryed the CCI BR2s and it improved acuracy but I still had one very wide flyer(13 inches high) in a 5 shot group

[montana_charlie]

Herbert, do you have a chronograph to measure velocity?

There are two reasons for compressing powder.
Some burn cleaner when compressed.
Compression allows more powder to be loaded in a given case volume.

As you change the compression in powder charge, the ES and SD numbers from a chronograph should show improvement or detraction. When you reach a zenith in consistency, exceeding that amount of compression can be expected to decrease performance.

CM

[drcook]

also how are you compressing the powder. AND are you using the same lot of brass. AND at what distance.

there also could be another variable that is causing that and not compression. are you annealing your cases ? that also sounds like an annealing issue.

[herbert buckland]

Herbert, do you have a chronograph to measure velocity?

There are two reasons for compressing powder.
Some burn cleaner when compressed.
Compression allows more powder to be loaded in a given case volume.

As you change the compression in powder charge, the ES and SD numbers from a chronograph should show improvement or detraction. When you reach a zenith in consistency, exceeding that amount of compression can be expected to decrease performance.

CMI do not have a chronograph but I think that is the only way I will find out what is going on.With the 56-50 you have to compress the powder to get a reasonable velocity(45gr is maximum before the case bulges)I use a compresion die to compress so the bullet does not get deformed,and are using the same cases over ans over to keep variables at a minum.My problem is I am trying to get maximum velocity with BP so I am trying 45gr of 3 F powder,40gr of 2 F has always shown better acuracy with PP,rifle primers seem to be improving thing with the heavly compresed 3F load but not enough,I am begining to think I may not be able to get this load to shoot with any primer.All groups are shot of bench rest at 100yd

[drcook]

using the same cases over ans over to keep variables at a minum

are you annealing your cases ? cases that are too hard act like this. when I first bought my 45-90, I forgot to anneal the Starline brass and it would put 2 together, then throw a flier 12 to 18 inches. it was not consistent at all. once I annealed the cases it came together.

in order to get a real comparison you will need to use 25 cases. take your load, back it off 5 grains and load 5 rounds (ie: 40 grains of 3F), load 5 more with 4 grains less(ie: 41 grains of 3F), then 5 with 3 grains less and 5 with 2 and 5 with 1 less. then shoot 5 separate targets so the bullet impacts are not confused.

then set your targets side by side and look at the pattern they are in and maybe post the pictures so we can help

but anneal your cases before you do this

[bigted]

i would try everything already mentioned before going any further. also another way to increase the powder capacity in your cases is two fold...first never fullsize them after they have been shot in your chamber...especially if they will chamber back in the chamber...second is to do your compression in 2 steps...droptube thru the longest droptube you have 1/2 of your charge...compress fully...then droptube the remainder in the case and compress that...im bettin you will be able to charge those cases with more grains this way and still not bulge the cases....not sure that the accuracy will hold but as for power...this is a way to increase the powder...thusly the power....but if you cant hit anything then i would rather use an anemic load that i can deliver where I want then a powerhouse that flys where IT wants to go.

[herbert buckland]

are you annealing your cases ? cases that are too hard act like this. when I first bought my 45-90, I forgot to anneal the Starline brass and it would put 2 together, then throw a flier 12 to 18 inches. it was not consistent at all. once I annealed the cases it came together.

in order to get a real comparison you will need to use 25 cases. take your load, back it off 5 grains and load 5 rounds (ie: 40 grains of 3F), load 5 more with 4 grains less(ie: 41 grains of 3F), then 5 with 3 grains less and 5 with 2 and 5 with 1 less. then shoot 5 separate targets so the bullet impacts are not confused.

then set your targets side by side and look at the pattern they are in and maybe post the pictures so we can help

but anneal your cases before you do thisAll my cases are annealed.acuracy is reasonable with 40gr 3F around 3 inches ,with 40 gr PP it is closer to 2 inches.By ading the extra 5grs acuracy ges to hell ,with Wano PP though the 40gr load shoots much better with PP ,and with Wano PP a under primer was with Wano PP works best,I have been loading BP for years and this is the first time I have noticed that primers can make such a big diffrence,but I have never compresed powder to this extent before.To clarify Wano powder is the only reliable sourse of BP were I live ,Swiss turns up acasionly but is a unrelable supply and expencive

[drcook]

where do you live that you have an issue getting black powder? if you are here in the states www.powderinc.com will ship 5 lb lots.

I have no idea about Wano. I compress Goex to the point it has to be dug out of the case with a pick. I had a couple dud primers and it was packed in there. I have no issues with accuracy, nor does anyone I know that compresses a lot have any issues BUT we are shooting much longer cartridges than you are.

at what distances are those group sizes ?

have you tried stick a coffee filter wad over the flash hole to soften the flame down ?

[herbert buckland]

where do you live that you have an issue getting black powder? if you are here in the states www.powderinc.com will ship 5 lb lots.

I have no idea about Wano. I compress Goex to the point it has to be dug out of the case with a pick. I had a couple dud primers and it was packed in there. I have no issues with accuracy, nor does anyone I know that compresses a lot have any issues BUT we are shooting much longer cartridges than you are.

at what distances are those group sizes ?

have you tried stick a coffee filter wad over the flash hole to soften the flame down ?I live in NSW Australia,in the US I belive Wano is called Shuetzen.Groups are shot of a bench a 100yds.Primer wads make the groups much worse with this heavly compresed load(the first time I experinced this)CCI BR2 primers all most fix the problem but I am still getting one flyer in a 5 shot group,the other 4 are in a 2 1/2 inch group with the flyer being about 8 inches away in any deriction.I have not tryed magnum pistol primers as yet

[hickstick_10]

I shoot the 56-50 Spencer and am trying to get the most out of the short case,I can compress 45gr of 3f or 2f but find acuracy goes to hell with the CCI LPP I use,rifle primers seem to improve acuracy with this load.What I was wondering is there a limit that powder can be compresed before ignition becomes variable.The rifle is a tack driver with 40gr Wano PP and 395gr NEI bullet sized to .516 groove diameter is .514 and twist is 1 in 36.not sure of velocitys but in the heavly compresed loads I suspect there is a wide variation which would acount for the terable groups,around 12 inches at 100 yds,the 40 gr load will give a consistant 2 inch or smaller group which is the load that I will have to use.any one else ran across this problem with heavly compresed loads an is there a fix,I just want a bit more punch for pigs

Try a little round wad of newpaper at the bottom of your case, then pour in your powder.

[herbert buckland]

Tryed every thing and can not get the acuracy I am after.Will go back to my 40gr load of wano PP and PP with a primer wad,At least if I do my part I can hit them were I aim.I think the only way I am going to get more velocity with acuracy is to find a can of Swiss FF,not a simple thing were I live.Thanks to every one for your segestions