The Winter War 1939

[Fly]

God I love the Finn's.I only have one finnish m-39, but would never trade
it.Check this short flick of the Finns fighting the mighty Russian army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDnvnPnyaiM&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Fly

[gnoahhh]

Yep, they handed the Russkies butts on a platter. But, it was due as much to the ineptitude of the Russians as much as the bravery/skill of the Finns.

[Hang Fire]

God I love the Finn's.I only have one finnish m-39, but would never trade
it.Check this short flick of the Finns fighting the mighty Russian army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDnvnPnyaiM&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Fly

Watch the movie "Talvisota" in it's entirety with English subtitles on your computer. If one has a smart TV with 'Web Videos" app, using Flingo can also fling it into queue to watch on big screen. This is the version that runs over 3 hours, the Finnish version runs over four hours.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXaSPn7JBfM

Finnish version, no subtitles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkWgis7uU50&feature=relmfu

There is another movie (Tali-Ihantala 1944) out about the massive Soviet invasion June 22, 1944. The Russians were now on the offensive and winning against the Nazis and once again felt sure of a quick victory. Initially the did make rapid gains, pushing the Finns back everywhere, until Finnish resistance stiffened and slowing them down.

Then came the Miracle of Tali-Ihantala where the Finns unleashed their secret weapon. For years the Finn’s had surveyed every square meter of Finland and worked out where dispersed artillary pieces from any position could within range bring fire to bear upon any selected area. They caught the Russians in a vulnerable concentrated position and brought 250 guns to bear upon it. At the time it was the greatest concentration of artillery on one spot in history. When it was over, the Soviets in that area were almost completely obliterated to the man.

V.P. Nenonen initiated and brought to perfection his fire control charts system is still used today by armies around the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala#Finnish
“Ihantala: July 1 – July 9
The ensuing Finnish concentration of artillery fire was the heaviest in the country's military history.[27] It was based on the famed fire correction method of Finnish Artillery General Vilho Petter Nenonen, which enabled easy fire correction and quick changes of targets.[5] At the critical Ihantala sector of the battle, the Finnish defenders managed to concentrate their fire to the extent of smashing the advancing Soviet spearhead.[27] The clever fire control system enabled as many as 21 batteries, totaling some 250 guns, to fire at the same target simultaneously in the battle; the fire controller did not need to be aware of the location of individual batteries to guide their fire, which made quick fire concentration and target switching possible. This concentration was considered a world record at the time.[5]”

[Dean D.]

I recently read a really good book that documents the Winter War.

"A Frozen Hell; The Russo-Finnish Winter War of 1939-40" by William R. Trotter.
(Algonquin Books)

A well written historical account. Calling the Finn's anything but tough would be a mistake.

[Jack Stanley]

Not to take anything away from the Finns , but didn't stalin purge the officer corps of his army in 1938 ? Something about wanting loyal people in the army ?

Jack

[Fly]

Calling the Finn's anything but tough would be a mistake.I agree.they were out numbered
like 100 to one.They had no tanks or anything to fight tanks with.The Russians lost
200000 men the Finns 25000.

Fly

[wilit]

Awesome thread. Thanks!

[Thumbcocker]

Stalin did purge many officers and the commissars could countermand a commanders orders. By 1943 many purged officers were reinstated and commissars had much less power. The winter war is essential to understand WW2. Western support was overwhelmingly with the Finns. That fact coupled with Soviet intel that the Whermacht was not ready with new weapons lead Stalin to believe that the Western democracies were trying to sucker the USSR into a preemptive strike against Germany in1940 hence Stalin was reluctant to believe a German attack was coming.

The Finns tried to warn Hitler that Russian grunts were fine soldiers if properly led and equipped. Many cut off units fought on to near anhilstion against the Finns. Hitler ignored the Finns and everyone else.

[Hang Fire]

The Finn's experience at the time was that on the attack the Russians were lacking. But as you have indicated, on the defensive they were tenacious as Hades and could endure punishment beyond belief and keep fighting.

Although not tested for many decades, when it came to defending a position, this was also true of the Spanish infantryman.

[perotter]

Not to take anything away from the Finns , but didn't stalin purge the officer corps of his army in 1938 ?

Jack

The Finns weren't prepared for the war. Even for rifles they had to take anything in any caliber that was available.

But I don't think any country was prepared for WW2.

[Fly]

Quote (Even for rifles they had to take anything in any caliber that was available).Yes
this is true.But look at any Mosin Nagant they refurbished & there a thing of beauty.

I have only one M-39 & it's my pride & joy.Pine tared stock, better sights, & no beating
the bolt up to open it.They reworked these bad boys into a rifle anyone would be
proud to take into action.

Fly

[Jack Stanley]

I read about what the Finns took into the war with them and the equipment they had when it was over . It was amazing what they came out of it with .... I mean trucks , rifles and artillery I can understand . But they even got some aircraft too :shock:I think the book was titled the winter war , sorry I don't remember for sure .

They sure can rebuild a rifle , I just love the M39 as well .

Jack

[Griz44mag]

But I don't think any country was prepared for WW2.
Except for the Germans?

[smkummer]

The Finnish K31 and Swedish K37 subgun is one heck of a weapon for when the fighting got close.

[rhbrink]

Except for the Germans?

Looked like to me the Japs were fairly well prepared too!

RB

[perotter]

Germany wasn't prepared at all for WW2. They didn't have enough ammo, rifles(look at all the captured ones they used), trucks, tanks, fuel, planes, subs, etc. Nor the factories to make them. And they knew it. They never even were able to make enough rifles or ammo to arm themselves.

The Japanese weren't either. They didn't ever have enough to even fight China. Much less the US.

[EdZ KG6UTS]

I read that the Swedes were, by treaty, not allowed to SELL arms to the Finns so they LOANED Finland the weapons including many 6.5X55 Mausers. The Finns even returned quite a few of the loaned weapons back to Sweden!!

EdZ KG6UTS

[Whistler]

Not to forget the Lahti!

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg/fi/lahti-l-35-e.html


The L-35 pistol had been developed by the Finnish designer Aimo Lahti and manufactured by Finnish company VKT from 1935 until 1985 or so. It was adopted as a standard sidearm for Finnish army in 1935. In 1940, Sweden purchased a license for Lahti pistol, simplified it and began production as a Husqvarna M/40 pistol.

(Proud as usual to live three miles from Husqvarna)

[perotter]

The 77,000 6.5x55 Mausers that Finland got from Sweden were purchased and not loaned. Mostly used during the Winter War in northern Finland. Then Sweden got nervous about being invaded and the Finns returned 25,000 Mausers to Sweden.

Finland did start the manufacture of the 6.5x55 round and I think supply them to the Swedes. My understanding is that Sweden had made major defense reductions in the 1920s. That is why they had rifles to sell and didn't have the desired level of ammo manufacturing capacity in the 1940s.

[725]

Fly
You would enjoy researching a Finn by the name of Simo Hayha. A brave national hero of Finland who served in the Winter War. By all acounts, the first order of a sniper. His favorite rifle was the open sighted MN. Look, also, for Killer Hill, where 32 Finns went against 4,000 Russians. He was a man to admire.

[Thumbcocker]

The German economy did not get on a full war footing until late 43-44. Speer did much to increase production and streamline the process. Hitler refused to let German women work in factories so pow and slave labor was used. I saw a documentary where a French national who was forced to work in the underground V2 factory talked about Soviet pow's urinating in the circuitry of the rockets.

The Germans were also fixated on complicated temperamental systems that were prone to break down. 1300 total Tiger tanks that required lots of maintaince and still broke down a lot. The V2 was an enormous drain on resources and material. Anyone who could work on a tractor could keep a T34 or a Sherman going. Germany gambled big on a rapid strike with a political solution and lost. VonManstein said that Germany lost the war when Moscow held in the winter of 40-41. The general staff could not believe that Hitler declared war on the US.

[I'll Make Mine]

The general staff could not believe that Hitler declared war on the US.

As I understand it, Germany had a mutual defense treaty with Japan that required them to join hostilities against the USA after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor -- and since Hitler had already (by late 1941) reneged on his non-aggression treaty with the Soviet Union, he might have figured alienating one ally at a time was the better route.