simple lube.

[runfiverun]

a few people have asked me about a simple easy to make lube.
and here is an easy to make no fuss lube.
the ingredients are easy to find.

i call it simple lube.

4 oz's beeswax [by weight solid]
4 teaspoons of white petrolatum [vaseline]
2 teaspoons of two stroke oil [regular ol dollar store type]
2 teaspoons of atf [i use dexron]
you can add 1/8th teaspoon of lanolin if you wish.

here is the cooking instructions.
melt the beeswax dump everything in and stir.
pour out to cool..

works in a lubrisizer with room temp,and should make a decent pan lube too.
[i don't pan lube so haven't tried it.]
you can add a third tsp of 2 stroke oil if you want it a little softer [or for quite cold weather].
it's pretty tacky but stays in the lube grooves when rattled around with other boolits.

[geargnasher]

Awww, come on now, that can't possibly be any good without at least two different kinds of metal salt gellants, polybutene, polyolester oils, and synthetic EP ester additives now can it? :kidding:

Gear

[Rex]

The simple lubes do work don't they. I have used just bees wax and ATF. A little more ATF for winter time loading and a little less for hot summer months. Seems to work pretty good.

[runfiverun]

it could use a little softener/flexer.
maybe a little ALOX :lol:
seriously though:
a tsp of alox wouldn't hurt the lube at all.

it does shoot well, and doesn't leave a humongous lube star and isn't smokey.
it didn't leave any antimonial wash in the bbl either...[ so nyah]
i shot 21 rounds of it yesterday in 60-f weather with winds gusting from 10-15 mph without a break.
just filled the magazine acquired the orange dot [which tirned into a hole] and shot the target till they were all gone,all of them held group.
i didn't have a lot of time to fiddle faddle around as i had stuff to go do.
and just wanted to check the zero on the wifes rifle real quick.

[runfiverun]

i'd like to see how it done on your wear machine though.

[leftiye]

Anybody got a source for slack wax?

[geargnasher]

The ATF and Vaseline might be the "fix" for Speed Green in more temperate climates. A teaspoon of the liquid Alox and a teaspoon of Carnauba flakes might do well also when added to your original formula, but not unless indicated by groups in warmer or cooler weather.

Gear

[fredj338]

Anybody got a source for slack wax?

Isn't that what toilet rings are?

[Maven]

r5r, If you used either 4 tsps. of 2-Cycle Oil or 4 tsps. of ATF instead of 2 tsps. of each, would the lube be degraded? Improved? Have no real effect?

[runfiverun]

the atf is more of a bore conditioner/bbl lube. [it keeps things soft in the bbl]
the two stroke burns clean and leaves very little ash behind.
atf is a poly olefin ester, the 2 stroke oil is a poly also but it is designed to lube and burn.
the vaseline is the modifyer/tackifyer to the b-wax.
adding a little more/less of either oil will not have any major affect really,it's just a good balance.
clean up with an atf [or ed's red] dampened patch will push the bore clean and condition it for the lube all at the same time.

[williamwaco]

What ever happened to bear fat?

I like natural ingredients.

.

[runfiverun]

well after seeing what the dogs done to the deer trimmings from dinner tonight, i'd suspect they ate the bear fat too.
many of us are still using animal fats it's just that most of them are synthetic or defatted stuff.
that and i just don't have the patience to build a fire in the back yard and drag out the wash-tub and scrape the fat off a bear...:lol:
there ain't no way i'm gonna smell the renderings from no sheep.

[Marlin Junky]

Where's the soap?! ;-)

MJ

[leftiye]

Isn't that what toilet rings are?

Yeah, I guess, but I thought I'd read that bowl wax wasn't 100% slack wax. I'm talking about the stuff from a refinery. I did a search, gear says fliudmaster bowl wax is good stuff on the "Ultimate" thread.

[runfiverun]

there's nothing to bind so no soaps needed.
there's actually a lot more room for more oils in this recipe, but the tacky is right and theres just enough glide.
the lube stays in the grooves when you put it there and the smallest amount of heat makes it just a bit softer.
it's easily modified because of this..
a little mink oil or sulpher ester,or castor oil wouldn't hurt at all either.
carnuba would make it a high heat lube,but youd have to be near/in the 100's.
it's a basic lube recipe with a lot of lattitude for manipulation.
it took me a bit to get it though.

[HORNET]

Level, rounded, or heaping teaspoon on the Vaseline?? Makes a difference...

[Reg]

Slack wax, bowel wax. Could someone expound on this?
Nice recipe by the way, will mix up a batch.

[mdi]

Awww, come on now, that can't possibly be any good without at least two different kinds of metal salt gellants, polybutene, polyolester oils, and synthetic EP ester additives now can it? :kidding:

Gear


HUH? :confused:

[geargnasher]

That was a little tribology humor there, MDI. Run and I have put some pretty unusual stuff down our barrels in and effort to develop better lube formulas.

Gear

[Marlin Junky]

there's nothing to bind so no soaps needed.

Soap will also raise the melt temp... which is good for us desert rats.

Perhaps we could add soap for a summer version and retain a soap-less version for the cold??

In making the soapy version one would need to heat the oils to about 300F and then add the soap. After cooling about 75F or so, the remaining ingredients can be added and whatcha got is basically a Felix Lube of a slightly different flavor.

MJ

[robroy]

And here I thought lithibee was simple.:bigsmyl2:

[runfiverun]

i use teaspoons [real measuring type] and they are flat level.
don't be afraid to add another spoonfull of vaseline or one of the oils to suit your wax.

Don:
i thought about some ivory for a bit, but i don't think you'll need the higher melt temp.
like i said this is minimal on the oils,and will more likely need to be modified for the low end.
the standard 2-3% carnuba will take it up a notch on the temp scale too.
but the mix is on the verge of needing heat to flow in a lubesizer now.


mdi:
that was an inside joke from gear and my response with the alox was a poke back.
we have tossed so many lube recipes around this year it ain't funny.
i still have a short list of them i need to make and test.
and i have 4 sitting in jars waiting in the wings that i haven't shot yet.
one with ivory and soy wax, another moly lube, and a lithium-12 stearated micro-wax.

[Maven]

r5r, Thanks for the clarification re oil quantities and modification. I've got 4 oz. of beeswax measured out, and have the other ingredients on hand, so I'll be brewing some in the next day of so. The only thing holding me back is finding another stainless steel bowl to use, but not to worry, as I've already negotiated that with SWMBO.

[bowfin]

What ever happened to bear fat?

Bear fat is too valuable to use as a lube ingredient. Render it down for lard!

[leftiye]

What would the effect be if one used a synthetic transmission fluid and replaced the two stroke oil with it - ie used 4tsps of tranny fluid?

[runfiverun]

i haven't tried the synth trans fluid.
it should be similar but it would be slipperyer. [is that even a word?]
remember a too slippery lube is not condusive to accuracy,you do need some friction between the lube and bore.
you could divide everything by 8 and make enough to hand lube a small sample and try it.

[MBTcustom]

R5R, how do you think this lube would compare to FWFL? I love that stuff because it seems like there is an unending number of boolits that I can shoot without needing to clean. Could this be comparable?
Your description of the tackyness seems similar to FWFL.
Do you think you can shoot this stuff as fast as FWFL?

[mdi]

That was a little tribology humor there, MDI. Run and I have put some pretty unusual stuff down our barrels in and effort to develop better lube formulas.

Gear
Understood. Just an old shade-tree mechanic's response to a chemist's post ;-)

[runfiverun]

tim:
i have never used actual felix lube so i can't really compare.
i have polymerized stuff but not mineral oil and castor oil.
castor oil is a good lubricant but it is also a plant "fat" and it has some undesirable characeristics much like carnuba has in the cold.
this has the tacky that felix has but is a titch firmer.
some extra vaseline will smooth and soften the lube.
a little more atf adds a bit more glide.
and the 2 stroke adds just a smidge more glide, but is consumed when burned, it is what gets the lube flowing when the round is fired.
the small amount of lanolin adds more flexibility and a titch more tackyness.

you could try adding a teaspoon full of castor oil in place of one of the atf.
now many of the 2 stroke oils might still contain some castor oil [the one i use doesn't]

i have fired a pretty good amount of these now through the wifes 0-6 without cleaning the bbl, so far the only thing i have seen is some powder fouling.
the antimonial wash i was getting before with a lithi-bee type lube is gone now.
i'm gonna give the rifle a few more days then push a dry patch down the bbl and see how it feels.
i have been just stopping by and shooting a group of 20 or so on my way up hunting the last few days.
and things have been consistent from day to day.
i was shooting the same target day after day till someone pulled it down and put up a new one yesterday.

[rintinglen]

This sounds silly, but I'm dead serious. How does this stuff smell when mixing/heating? I made up a batch of Ben's Red and SWMBO flat told me never again. I live in a mobile home park and vile odors seemingly are not countenanced.

[Maven]

rintinglen, I made a batch yesterday, heating it on a hot plate in my basement. The odor is predominantly one of beeswax, but adding the 2-cycle oil and ATF changes it to a hot oil scent. Not vile or overpowering, but you can't help but notice it. Btw, it wasn't noticeable upstairs, and my wife never commented on it when she entered the basement.

[runfiverun]

it smells a lot better than alox...
my smeller don't work very well but the womens does and i had no comments from them when i made it either.
i think a lot of it is time.
it's melted wax, then a cooling off lube just like that.

let us know what you think maven.
and what changes you made for your b-wax

[Jailer]

I think I'm going to have to try this one out. I'm all about simple and this one is simple.

Just got to get me some more beeswax, I'm out.

[Maven]

r5r, I followed the recipe exactly, including the addition of 1/4 tsp. anhydrous lanolin. At present it's in a plastic bag on my work bench thawing out as I used the wrong stainless bowl to brew it in. (My wife wanted it back. I put it in the freezer overnight and popped it out this A.M.) I'll have to remelt it to add it to my LAM-II, but that won't happen for the next several weeks. However, it looks a bit like Felix Lube, but I haven't yet been able to determine how it will behave at room temperature.

[MBTcustom]

How about some pictures? How green is this stuff anyway?

[Maven]

Tim, The final color depends on that of the beeswax, the largest ingredient. Mine was a dark tan, to which I added ruby ATF and blue 2 cycle oil. The result was a light tan - tan colored lube.

[MBTcustom]

Dang. I was hoping for a bright zombie green.
Oh well. I'm going to whip some of this stuff up anyway and see how it does.

[runfiverun]

mine comes out a lime green with one batch of b-wax, and a more blue-green with another.
now gear has a zombie lube that's pretty neon but it has some issues you don't wanna deal with.
it has a lot to do with your 2 stroke and b-wax combo.
and why i gave several ideas on modifications to make it work with different waxes.

i went in the garage this morning it was just about 55-f in there, i grabbed a handfull and squeezed into a shape i could stick in the star easily.
it didn't stick to my hand but left a little slicky behind.

[MBTcustom]

it didn't stick to my hand but left a little slicky behind.
That sounds like an improvement over FWFL. That stuff sticks to everything.

[runfiverun]

anybody that makes/shoots this please,please,please report back what you see, how you modify it [and any info about your b-wax if you do modify it] or if you think something needs to be changed about the lube.
or just a range report about flyers,good groups,first shot,long strings, etc..
Lamar.

[rintinglen]

I'm going to give it a try--BUT if I get turned out onto the street I'm heading for Idaho with fire in my eye.

[runfiverun]

you'll be fine.
take i-15 north to hwy 30 east, you can't miss town.
most everybody knows how to get to my house.
i should be able to loan the couch or find a cot.

[geargnasher]

Dang. I was hoping for a bright zombie green.
Oh well. I'm going to whip some of this stuff up anyway and see how it does.

I hold the patent on Zombie lube, in fact that was what I actually named a series of PAG lubes I was working on a while back due to the UV tracer dies in the oil:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094fe682f027e0a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5661)

:bigsmyl2:

Gear

PS Tim, you might recognize that little HB PP boolit poking out of the tray in the background....[smilie=1:

[rhbrink]

:coffeecom

[Maven]

r5r, Inserted chunks of "Simple Lube" in my LAM II the other day atop the Felix Lube already there and melted them with a heat gun (low temp.) once inside. It will take awhile before it works through the sizing dies. No problems to speak of.

As an aside, although the LAM II is sturdier than the Lyman #450, the latter is much easier to adjust and use. OTOH, the former has a solid bottom so it can't leak and coarse threads on the die retaining nut so it can't be easily misthreaded or stripped.

[runfiverun]

excellent.
nothing out of the ordinary so far.
i haven't seen any oil bleed out sitting in the window or any hardening of the original lube.
there may be a swap for the lanolin coming up which would extend the cold side of the effective temp zone.
[something felix,gear and i discussed] and hopefully [should] be an ingredient you can get at your local auto parts store or wal mart.
stay tuned.

[milkman]

R5R
In your experience does the lube perform the same in temps from mid 20s to mid 80s. That is the temperature ranges we normally get here in Arkansas during hunting season. (sometimes on the same day ) It really would be nice to know where that first shot was headed, no matter the temp.
Milkman

[MBTcustom]

That is sure enough Arkansas hunting. I am hoping to experiment with this lube myself. In fact I ordered the BW from Randy two days ago.
Milkman just asked the $24,000 question.

[Jailer]

excellent.
nothing out of the ordinary so far.
i haven't seen any oil bleed out sitting in the window or any hardening of the original lube.
there may be a swap for the lanolin coming up which would extend the cold side of the effective temp zone.
[something felix,gear and i discussed] and hopefully [should] be an ingredient you can get at your local auto parts store or wal mart.
stay tuned.

This post is relevant to my interest. A lube that works well in the heat and at cold temps is what I need. Something that works well down into the 30's would work, I don't spend a whole lot of time outside when it gets much colder than that.

[geargnasher]

There's a 1200-something post sticky going on addressing this very thing, it ain't as simple as it looks.

Gear

[S&W-629]

can some one tell my why you have to use BW and not the other wax from candles?

[Hamish]

The short, less than 40K words explanation , is that BW, is majic bee throw-up, that cures cancer, diaper rash, and leading.

Candles are generally paraffin, which is mostly useless in boolit lube.

[milkman]

Gear,
I was aware of the sticky, but kinda like my kids used to do, I thought I would keep asking different people till I got the answer that I wanted. I really do appreciate all the time, energy and money that people here on this forum have invested in the lube question. Most of the discussions are way over my head and I am glad that some of you have the education and intelligence to understand what is going on.
Milkman

[runfiverun]

first the parrafin question.
it can be used to make a lube with,but the big issue is consistency, you can buy consistent parrafinic waxes but they usually cost more than b-wax. [they do come in some desirable viscosities though]
beeswax is a little different from batch to batch but is easily manipulated for softness with an oil or a modifier like vaseline or lanolin. [and with small amounts]

the 20/30-f area should be no problem for this lube, that's part of why the dexron ATF was added as a main ingredient.
it IS my cold weather lube modification for other lubes.
it also allows you to push a patch wetted with atf through the bbl for cleaning,and for a more consistent cold bbl first shot.

like i pointed out earlier each batch of b-wax is a little different, a little more of one ingredient or another won't make a big difference to how the lube works, but keeping a pretty consistent viscosity and smear from one batch to the next will keep things more consistent in the bbl.

[PineTreeGreen]

Back in the 1980's,I mixed my first batch of "Pine Tree Green". That was 1 lb. of beeswax,13 oz jar of petroleum jelly,and 2.5 oz of Amsoil 100:1,2 cycle lube. The color came from the 2 cycle oil.
It still works great and I have approched 2200 fps in a Contender"Super 14".
Lately,I have cut the PJ back to 10 oz and it still works,the next batch will be 8 oz.
I loves to spearament.

[warf73]

can some one tell my why you have to use BW and not the other wax from candles?

I currently do use candle wax, its a mix of soy wax candles (mostly) and some paraffin wax candles. I melted it all together (my wife started saving me wax puddles from her smell pretty maker) and dip lubed some 480 Ruger boolits.
They dipped well and shot well with no leading and left a pretty smell after being fired. I noticed a few weeks later that the extra boolits I dipped and sized the lube was flaking out of the lube grooves.
The problem was posted here and the result was add vaseline and maybe some ATF. Well I did add 1 small jar of vaseline and 1 oz ATF and now the lube doesn't flake out of the lube grooves.
Still no leading, shoots the same and smells pretty when shoot.
So in part you can use candles just make sure you know what the make up of the candles are.



Note: Some people are allergic to paraffin burning, soy candles and other natural ingredients candles are out there.

[runfiverun]

scented candles do smell nice when fired if you get the right ones.
i remember making a say wax lube with a scented candle mix the wife dubbed it butt-crack lube, not the exact word she used but it did smell like that.
vanilla,coffee [some],and angle food cake are nice smelling though.
soy wax will also feather out nicely [parrafin won't unless plasticized] but neither have the pore size [lube carrying capacity] that b-wax has.

[Jailer]

runfiverun, what do you think of substituting an once of beezwax with an ounce of microcrystalline wax? The micro wax I have is softer and a bit tackier than beeswax and gulf wax. I was thinking of something just a touch softer for the colder weather. Would that work or would you just add more Vaseline?

Have you had a chance to test the velocity limit of this lube yet?

[tbierley]

I make all my lubes the black powder lube is simple 4oz by weight of unbleached beeswax and 2oz Neatsfoot oil by volume and 2oz Murphy oil soap by volume and a cayon color of your liking. And my smokless lube is the same but I add 4ozs paraffin was by weight.

[runfiverun]

i haven't pushed the lube past about 2300 fps yet.
the micro wax i haven't tried, give it a shot.
i have added soy wax and micro-wax to b-wax before and generally like to keep them below @ 25%.
a softer wax like you mention won't change the lube too much,i'd cut the vaseline back by a tsp though untill you see how the final product comes out.

[Jailer]

Made a batch earlier this evening. I substituted 1 oz of beeswax with 1oz of micro-wax other than that I followed your recipe to the letter. It is soft, pliable and quite tacky. I've got the pan with boolits cooling as we speak and will hopefully have some loaded to shoot Thursday. I won't be pushing the velocity envelope with this, just testing against a known accurate load that I've tried 2 other home made lubes on in my 300 blk bolt gun that runs around 1850 FPS.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Gun%20stuff/simplegreen.jpg

[geargnasher]

With POE and beeswax, never judge the consistency right away, it takes a day or so after being blended to decide how it's going to be.

By the way, your lube equipment and work area is way too clean, you must be new at this. :kidding:

Gear

[Jailer]

:mrgreen:

That part that the pan is sitting on is a pull out writing surface. It's on that because there's no room to set it on my desk.

[runfiverun]

it will firm up a little over night with the origional recipe but remains pliable and tacky.
i have a batch just sitting in the garage that's been there for about a month now.
in temps from 85 to about 50 [i keep it somewhat heated and sometimes have a fire in the wood stove]
it is just lube sitting there,no oil lost and it's still pliable and slightly tacky.
if i want to put some in the lube sizer i just squeeze some into the approximate shape and shove it in.
it wipes right off my hands.

that's the same color i get too.
looking forward to some more range reports.

[pilot]

I made some today. Mine came out purple due to the blue two stroke oil. I bought a small crock pot from a thrift store, dumped in the ingredients and let it cook for a half hour or so till everything was melted and mixed. I stuffed my lubrisizor and will use it tomorrow.

[Jailer]

OK, range report time. Real pleased with the performance of the lube. Shot as good as anything I've tried yet and was much easier to make than some others. I loaded up the 300 blk and just for kicks I loaded 5 rounds of 308 for the RGS. The boolit used was the Lee 312-155-2R cast from ACWW with just a touch of tin added and sized to .310. For the 300 blk I loaded a known accurate load of 15.3gr of H110 loaded to a COAL of 2.055. This load runs about 1850 FPS. For the 308 it was 19gr of 2400. First time trying this load so it was an unknown going in. Both guns have had several hundred rounds of jacketed and cast through them since the last time they were cleaned. All shots were fired at 100 yards.

Fist was the 300 blk. Not sure what was going on with the fist shot. First shot was way off from the rest of the group with the remaining 4 showing a typical group for this load. I fired off 5 jacketed rounds just prior to this since I wanted to see how it would group fired from a warm barrel so maybe that had something to do with it. Velocity was a little lower than normal at around 1800 FPS.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk153grH110simplegreen.jpg

Next up was 16gr H110. This load is where things just start to fall apart with this load. It stayed true to form. Only 4 shots on target because I accidentally bumped the trigger sending one round into the berm. :evil: Velocity was right around 1900 FPS, typical for this load.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/300blk16grH110simplegreen.jpg

Now the 308 was the big shocker. This was the most accurate shooting I've seen from this rifle of ANY load. My only problem was I made the mistake of not removing the sling before I shot this group and I ended up with some horizontal spread as a result. Still, this load and lube shows great promise in this gun and I'll be loading more very soon. Velocity was right around 1730 to 1750 for all 5 shots. All in all it was a good day at the range.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/posting%20pics/30819gr2400312-155-2R.jpg

[runfiverun]

if i go to 19 grs of 2400 in my 308 i have to back the primer down to a large pistol.
normally i will do much better with 17-18 grs and a large rifle primer [it works the same in my 0-6 too [shrug] just does]
positioning the powder a lil bit would have probably fixed those horizontal flyers.

have you tried aa-1680 in the 300?
just curious, i'm wanting to build a 10 twist one and push for about 19-1950 fps with either 1680 or 2230.

it looks like the modified lube is pulling some powder fouling.[indicating a wet condition to the muzzle]
how do the bbl's look?

[Jailer]

The horizontal fliers were absolutely due to me not being able to keep a steady hold on the target. I should have stopped and removed the sling, but they were the last shots I fired and I was getting cold and hungry so I was hurrying.

I never even bothered to look at the muzzle. Both guns have flash hiders so I doubt I'd see anything anyway.

What did strike me as a bit funny is the lack of a cold bore flier with the 308. The shots that are outside the group are #2 and #3, left and right respectively. 1, 4 and 5 are the nice little 3 shot group. This is the first 5 shots that had been through that gun in over 8 months.

I have tried 1680 in the 300 but so far haven't had any luck at all with it. I seem to be in the minority on this too for some reason. Ligun has shown some promise but needs more testing to be conclusive. I still want to try some RE7, 2400 and AA9 yet. This 300 blk has monopolized all my casting and reloading time for a while now and looks to do the same for a while longer. :)

I had a couple of other test rounds that caused some leading today so I cleaned the gun tonight (300 blk) and ran a patch with ATF on it through the bore as you and gear suggested to get it ready for it's next round of testing. The weather here has taken a turn for the worse for the next several days but I hope to get back out to the range soon for some more testing.

ETA: Describe "wet condition to the muzzle". Not sure exactly what that means. Pretend your talking to someone show doesn't have a clue what they are doing. :bigsmyl2:

[Kirk Miller]

Not sure if I messed up or not. Mixed up a batch of simple green today and tried to follow the recipe to the letter. I had two types of 2-stroke oil. semi-synthetic and full synthetic. After about three seconds of self debate, I decided on the semi. From what 5r5 has advised, I know that I'll have to let the final product sit over night to get a real feel for the vicosity. As of right now, the lube seems plenty soft and tacky, but the glide is not there. Smearing it between thumb and forefinger, the lube has a tendency to break up.

Hence my question. Do I need more vaseline or did I use the wrong type of 2-stroke oil?

What do ya'll think.
Thanks a bunch. especially to R5R for sharing this recipe with the forum.
Kirk

[geargnasher]

Kirk, getting the POE oils to "jive" with waxes can be a challenge. I don't know what sort of oils were in the semi-synthetic you used, but if the mix doesn't have the "glide" (I call it "smearability, where you can easily smear a blob down into just a faintly waxy film between your fingers), then there might be a compatibility issue with the two-stroke oil. Some oils plasticize the wax, some dissolve the bonds between the wax molecules making it different degrees of brittle and/or crumbly.

Ester oils, like Redline or the stuff Eutectic uses (Orange is all I can remember, help my rememberer somebody!) have the unique quality of being able to blend with just about any petroleum, synthetic, or wax without separating or getting crumbly. The Amsoil two-cycle lubes (which are PAO oils, not POEs, but have additives to help them blend with other stuff) will blend well with beeswax.

One thing I've found is that, over a few weeks time, some crumbly lubes tend to get "unitized" again. Might try remelting it for about ten-fifteen minutes and letting it sit a couple days, it might just be the solvent in the two-stroke oil (most are 25% aliphatic mineral spirits by volume) making it crumbly.

Gear

[Kirk Miller]

Gear, thanks for the help. That is all good information that I WILL use.
Kirk

[Jailer]

So if one was to mix up a batch and accidentally use power steering fluid instead of ATF what would the result be?

Not that I did that or anything......... :oops:

[geargnasher]

Common power steering fluid (GM type) is polyglycol-based, similar to the stuff used in some hydraulic fluids, DOT 3 brake fluid, and antifreeze. Other than tending to absorb moisture, and possibly being hostile to cartridge brass or gun steel in the long haul, I don't know, never tried it in lube.

Gear

[Jailer]

I was racking my brain trying to think of what the outcome would be, but you are right about the hygroscopic affect of brake fluid. I hadn't even thought about that. Looks like I'll throw this batch out.

I was mixing a new batch up today and following the original formula posted by RfR. I grabbed the wrong bottle (they looked identical) and didn't realize my mistake until I was putting things away.

[runfiverun]

kirk if after overnight it's still a bit on the parrafinic feeling side add some more vaseline.
that will give it a more cohesive/feathering feeling.
this lube is on the verge,it's fairly high friction.
adding more atf will up the "glide" but vaseline is the true b-wax modifier.

[Giggidy]

Fair warning for a newb question...

I'm in the prep stages for casting. I've got some range scrap I've turned into ingots. The folks got me a casting pot for Christmas, but I'm waiting until then to bust it out and use it. I should also be scoring a couple of molds for the holidays. In the meantime I'm poking around here and other places learning what I can before I actually start casting. So here is my newb question: is there any reason this lube wouldn't do well for pistols? I'm going to be casting and loading for my Makarov and my 9mm. I ask because I'm new and fairly ignorant, and it looks like everyone who has posted has used this with their rifles. Any thoughts or experience with lower velocity pistol rounds?

Thanks for any responses and for all the great info I've gotten so far from just poking around the forum.

[MBTcustom]

Should work just fine.

[runfiverun]

i used some in my 9m last week.
i have issues with carnuba red under 40-f and was getting some leading with some test loads i was working with using it.
the simple lube cleaned everything up,and i was able to take the load up another 0.10 gr which brought the boolit holes in the paper up in line with my sights.
i'm still tweaking this lube a little here and there. [next addition xlox]
going the opposite direction from b.a.c. to make the lube a little more temp friendly and flexable.

[brstevns]

Were do you guys get your lanolin? and what kind?

[MBTcustom]

I just bought some from Randyrat. Heck of a guy.

[runfiverun]

yep , randy.
it's anhydrous, which means nothing really as it contains water even though it's afraid of it.
but so do most automotive greases [shrug]
a lb will last a long/long time but makes good boolit lube and if you add some castor oil will make an excellent case and swaging lube too.

[sliphammer]

What do you think of substituting drug store mineral oil for the ATF fluid?

[geargnasher]

ATF has lots of good additives that the mineral oil doesn't. The ATF is cheaper anyway, might as well use the good stuff.

Gear

[Kirk Miller]

Simple lube update. First of all, thanks to R5R for this recipe and both he and Gear for their help in refining it.

My first attempt was a failure. I used what was at hand, which was a semi-synthetic 2 stroke. Everything else was according to the original recipe. The resulting mix turned out to be crumbly. With the addition of 1/2 tsp of reduced alox and another 1/2 tsp of vaseline it SEEMED okay. However when shot in 22-29 degree cold with no wind blowing, groups were haphazard with purge flyers.

Second attempt was even worse. After mixing the right proportions using Redline 2 stroke , I let it sit for two days. I should have left well enough alone. This mix seemed way to dry and I thought that 1/2 tsp of reduced alox would help. This abortion shot purge flyers from the second shot on and off through the tenth.

Third try was the charm. The exact mix and ingredients as laid out by R5R were used. With nothing else added or taken out, Two different five shot groups measuring no more than 3/4 in, were fired With no purges. I would have shot more groups but they closed the range on me. Also, the groups would probably been better had the sun not been shining right into the scope and I was using a new rifle rest which kept sliding around on the concrete bench.

Should have mentioned. All groups fired at 100 yds with a 222 rem, mag. Shooting was done on two separate days with the temps on both days 20-30 degrees.

Moral of this story? Should have tried the original version first!
I'm thinking that the red line 2-stroke is very slick and if anything I'll have to add some bees wax in warmer weather. Hopefully not, but at least I've now got a cold weather lube for my 22 center fires.
Kirk

[geargnasher]

Amazing what happens when you follow instructions, isn't it? :kidding:

The Red Line is indeed more slick and has a higher film strength than PAO-based two-stroke oils. I really like the POE Red Line oil, and think it is one of the best lube ingredients going in a beeswax-based lube, but it does require a bit less and can definitely give one an excellent demonstration of what is a purge flyer. Just today I tested a new version of my Longhorn lube using a bit more Red Line and less soap, OMG it shot two tiny groups, one right above the other about an inch apart at 100 yards. If two in a row hit in the top group, I could win a bet that the next would print in the lower group. After switching back to the previous formula plus some slack wax and carnauba, the flyers ceased. This was also at just about freezing temps.

Gear

[runfiverun]

you run into the issue i had when i fist modified the E-yellow with the animal fats and the sulpher ester.
it made the lube silky smooth but there was too much glide left behind.
it totally was a failure when the temps went over 85 or so.
it's great in the cold though,or if i just filled the g/c area with it.
the simple green is a bit on the dry side for a reason but a little more vaseline cuts that out and makes the lube feather better.
the ingredients are what's important, you just have to modify the basic lube with the vaseline to get the visc you want.
all beeswaxes are a little bit different.

[Jeff Houck]

w
What are you two guys - gearnasher and runfiverun - retired closet chemists? You seem to have a wealth of chemistry at your finger tips and the time to experiment too. I sure do enjoy reading your experiments. You're doing what I have hoped to do but am not educated enough to pursue in an intelligent manner.

Jeff Houck

[btroj]

Not chemists, they just know lubrication..........

[Kirk Miller]

Next question from a lube retard. If the simple lube needs to be modified for warm-hot weather, should more bees wax be added or vaseline taken out? Simple mind wants to know.
Thanks
Kirk

[randyrat]

I use 2/3rds for most beeswax base lubes. Less beeswax and you take away from the base, more and you run into the limitations of beeswax (because then you are more dependent on the beeswax as the lube). Sometimes you can get a way with deviations depending on how demanding your load is. Kirk, my answer is; try it either way, just stay in that 2/3rd beeswax zone and it will work. I hope i didn't confuse the subject.

[rlb]

R5R, have you shot this lube in the recent days since the temp has dipped? I don't know what the difference is between Soda and Challis, but it has been staying in the teens for highs here lately. How much modification does a guy need to do to go from these temps to summer temps?

Thanks

[runfiverun]

we have been staying in the same temp range during the days.
my big winter modification to most lubes is to add some atf...
if i wanted to further modify the lube for the extreme cold i'd just add 1/2 tsp of neatsfoot oil.

i went shooting yesterday with little girl and her boyfriend he and i were using L-yellow-m [with neatsfoot]
she was using my moly complex,i didn't have enough time before dark to try anything else out.
but my first shot from the 1917 was a hit on the 10" gong at 300 yds. [i missed shot #8 and shot #12] littlegirls first shot went into the group,i didn't see where his went from his 308 as i was bs'ing with the clubs president.

kirk:
the simple lube does not need heat modification unless you are shooting in holy hot like well over 100-f temps.
it's slightly dry for this reason.
i haven't tried taking the melt temp any higher,i could
try it i just haven't seen the need.

modifying a lube for weather is nothing more than modifying it's viscosity so that in the hot/cold the wax can release/retain the oils [lube] similarily [sp?]

me and ian aren't chemical guy's we have just had some good guidance/sample support from a lube engineer and some correspondence with a chemical engineer.
this has let us take the ingredients apart and see what each one does. [like lith stearates and paratack and binding agents]
that, information sharing, and a lot of late night web surfing.
there have been lot's of others involved with what
we know.
eutetic and btroj have had a lot of input
and felix has had a ton of information available as well as some others that are/aren't members here.

[rlb]

Thanks. Might have to try some. I have been using Felix lube with a little tech grade moly and it does ok, but I am always open to suggestions.

[geargnasher]

The big challenge to this is that I don't know anyone who is formally educated in Boolit Lubrication Technology, or even where to take a class other than in the garage classroom/online conferences and lab days at the shooting range. A genuine, educated lubrication engineer, a pharmacist, and two Tribologists among many others have taken a very high interest in this and have brought a wealth of technical knowledge to us in the past year, but there is no direct industry analogy to boolit lubrication so we can't just put forth a set of parameters that they can whip up a formula to meet. If it were that simple or inexpensive, Felix would have come away from Houston many years ago with a patented formula and he and one of the big Texas oil companies would be getting rich off of it still today, but the needs of boolit lubrication are so unique that it is a field unto itself.

So, really, the only way to truly answer so many of the questions that come up with a certain lube formula is to take something and go test it. We established some basic test parameters in the Extreme Lube thread. Kirk, try Lamar's formula next summer in the hottest weather you have where you live and see if it holds together for you. If you can establish that it doesn't (direct comparison to your groups made in cooler weather), then try modifying it a bit and observe the results. Much of this is in the "try it and see" stage, help us by trying and seeing.

I've almost got something together that will be sent out to about a dozen people for some final testing, and if that holds up we'll have a pile of empirical data by next summer that will answer most any question a mind could have. I imagine that we'll have a lot more answers about Simple Lube and Ben's Red by then as well if you guys keep making and shooting all this stuff in all sorts of climates and guns.

Gear

[runfiverun]

feed back is a definate plus.
we have made a lot of strides since starting.
i think we even have a handle on how lube works.
that and eutetics c.o.r.e. testing on barell condition [pitting,rougness,smoothness] has really helped.

i recently modified some of the simple lube [with thick] xlox.
it made a very stable lube modification i heated it up to 90 and cooled it down to 20 with no issues.
i even made a small batch of S-green and added a ton of sodium stearate [through a strainer [siiigh]
it looks pretty good though. [if not a little soft]
i think i can see how joe made his burnt hockey pucks.

[Kirk Miller]

My appreciation again to all who have spent so much time and energy developing workable lubes. I feel like a kid with an erector set. Something doesn't work, tear it down and start over. It's been fun. I'm off to the range right now to try the ORIGINAL version of simple green in 20 degree cold.
Kirk

[SlippShodd]

:coffee:

[runfiverun]

there have been a few other reports trickling in with this lube.
one was with a revolver and the groups got better as the charges went higher.
nevermind the alox additive,it made the lube stable and pliable it don't shoot worth beans though.
it does okay but the alox was causing some random flyers.

the reports have been positive if you stick with the origional lube and it's ingredients.
we are still working on it though.

ahh through popular demand i'm just gonna call it "simple lube"
say that 5 times fast :lol:

[saint_iverson]

What boolit did you use in the 222?

[Jailer]

I'm still playing around with it. It's shown some promise in 308. Groups have been good up to around 1900 FPS with air cooled WW. Haven't gone higher yet with that one.

Also played with the 300 blk some more. Tried a couple slight variations on a freshly cleaned bore and none of them shot worth a hill of beans although I'm going to switch powders and try some more. I had 3 different variations to try and had them all labeled and written down on a piece of paper. But of course I lost the paper and had no idea which ones were which so I'll have to repeat my test. :oops:

[rlb]

Shot about 12 rounds through the 454 so far with air cooled ww with no lead yet. Have to get a scope on it and try some paper shooting to get it honed in.

[felix]

With my very limited experience using the 30-221 upper attached to the stock Bushmaster lower, lube is not as important as the boolit style. So, in your testing, find the most accurate boolit first before deciding on the final lube composition. The 8 twist with its long gas return tube, plus the lack of case capacity, plus the 1100 fps restriction, restricts the auto function of the gun to a VERY few powders. I won't use any primer other than the 41CCI because of my fear of a loading mishap (I almost had a case separation on a once fired converted 223 case), and that alone does not make for valid experimentation on my part. The 680 powders with a 308299 boolit is the best so far by a long shot using a Leupold triangle reddot for sighting at 50 yards. 3 shots into a quarter, for example. ... felix

[felix]

Leading is not the problem, typically. Accuracy is. Fix any leading with boolit diameter choice. ... felix

[rlb]

So any lube will be good enough? Should I be shooting the right sized boolit without lube?:roll:

[runfiverun]

excellent, thank's felix.
boolit style, and it's relationship to the throat,is definatly the biggest factor in accuracy.
a tweak of a lube can help gain the final little bit's,
or completly blow groups apart...

[leftiye]

So any lube will be good enough? Should I be shooting the right sized boolit without lube?:roll:

Depends how you like removing lead from your bore. Using no lube is close to insanity in anything but a very slow pistol load.

What was said was that most any lube (unless totally deficient) will work well enough to find an accurate load, and that then you might probly benefit from a good lube. As R5R said, lube can ruin a good load if you use a poor enough lube.

[MBTcustom]

Look fellers, what Felix is saying is that lube has very little to do with leading and a lot more to do with accuracy. If you get the size of the boolit right, with the right hardness also(not too much and not too little), Then you could shoot it with nothing more than a graphite tumble and have no leading. (I would submit to you the lowly 22lr cartridge. How do they get good results out of very soft lead and almost no lube??? Hmmmmm!)
Lube is important once you get on paper. You find the right lube and magical things begin to happen. Unfortunately, lots of people try to use lube as a crutch so that they can get away with shoddy boolit fit/hardness, and sometimes it works, but there will come a time when you just cant get the stupid thang to shoot any better. At that time you have to unlearn a whole slew of misconceptions before you can move forward.
Shooting cast boolits accurately isn't hard, but you have to understand the fundamentals, and the castboolits creed if you want to take it all the way. Doing it the wrong way is "good nuff" for hunting and general plinking, but if you want the X ring, or anything close to it, you must put these things in order.
1. You need a good rifle/pistol
2. Find the groove diameter
3. Size the boolits .001-.003 over the groove diameter depending on the hardness of your alloy.
4. Work through several powders focusing on primer selection
5. Once the primer is selected, work through the powders again till you find the best combo
6. No leading, good primer, good powder, now observe boolit design. Try several in the same weight class.
7. No leading, good primer, good powder, good boolit, and pretty fair accuracy. You may now experiment with the delicate matter of boolit lube.
Had you not followed that process, or something similar to it, you wouldn't be able to tell whether the lube was a good one or a bad one because the difference between a good one and a bad one is slight. When everything else is right, the lube might take you from a 1.5" group to a .5" group.

Incedentally, archers do the same thing with their fletching. They work with the spine of the arrows and the adjustment of the rest until they can shoot a bare shaft (no feathers) and hit the point of aim. After the feathers have been glued on, those fellers can shoot aspirins off the target butt if they want to.

So you see, this is not backwards thinking, it's real shooting!

[felix]

Hopefully, all the new guys will read your insight, Tim. ... felix

[leftiye]

Great post Tim. I'd put the selection of boolit design in there somewhere nearer the start. Though you may want to experiment with several designs over time later. It helps to know some about boolit design, though thas another subject.

[MBTcustom]

That's true, but I could write two pages about all the various sundry details of boolit/powder/twist rate etc etc etc. the point is that the lube is the icing on the proverbial cake. At least that's the way I see it.

[Marlin Junky]

the point is that the lube is the icing on the proverbial cake. At least that's the way I see it.

Maybe so; however, while I'll eat cake w/o icing, I will not shoot a Pb based alloy w/o lube... granted, I have not shot a Pb/Sn/Cu alloy yet.

MJ

[rlb]

So I have had the boolit size and what not right for the past 8 years or so, but I have had lubes fail and cause leading. That's what I was getting at in post #101. New to the forum, yes, new to boolits, no.

[Flinchrock]

Awww, come on now, that can't possibly be any good without at least two different kinds of metal salt gellants, polybutene, polyolester oils, and synthetic EP ester additives now can it? :kidding:

Gear

And maybe a little Ballistol and a dab of possum fat...

[felix]

Is that a brand new gun in #101? That gun is considered new if it "leads" up with guilding metal using max condom loads while the gun is HOT.. Verify with a copper solvent after a cylinder's worth when the gun has been hot enough that you cannot hold the barrel for 10 seconds or so. That gun must be "used" to shoot cast well. ... felix

[MBTcustom]

:goodpost:
I like sweets 7.62 for getting copper fowling out of the barrel. If you dont start with a clean barrel, then you will be dealing with leading, because the lead sticks to copper like barnickles to a pirate ship.

[rlb]

It's a DMAX gun with a brand new Mcgowen barrel that I just put on a few weeks ago. The barrel is one of the smoothest inside that I have ever seen. It's never had anything but boolits through it. I think it is going to be a shooter. Figured with the high operating pressure of the Casull round it would be a good simple lube test. When I get the scope base installed and get a new scope we will check the groups. Right eye isn't quite working for the irons anymore.

[felix]

Gun bearing surface needs to be between 600 and 800 grit for "normal" lubes to adhere thoroughly through cylinder exits and barrel. Try adding viscosity in increments until the lube works as you intend, and as surfaces get naturally rougher, start backing off the viscosity in increments so winter shooting becomes commensurate with summer shooting. Those are the games we all play with aging guns. ... felix

In your situation, an antimony wash throughout your system is desirable to help aging. As our guns get older we try and eliminate that to make the barrel look clean after a day's shoot. Don't mistake the look of the wash with undesirable leading...accuracy is your determination on what trash is. An occassional flyer should be ignored because of possible lube purging because of high viscosity. Ideally, viscosity of lube should be close to zero in the perfect lube to prevent purging, but then we would be limited to shooting in zero degree weather. So, what is it? Bad boolit or purging? Only you would know. ... felix

[runfiverun]

you run into the fight of antimony.
if you use a high content or water drop you end up with antimonial dendrites.
they have a tendency to scrape a bbl.
but at some point it seems to pretty much stop.
some lubes seem to combat antimonial wash too.

but yeah the trick is to have lube viscosity consistency.

[Nrut]

R5R,
~~~2 teaspoons of two stroke oil [i use cd-2]~~~

What is cd-2?
I did a search and it doesn't appear to be a brand name but a oil detergent..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.autobarn.net/ch4111-12.html
CD-2 Oil Detergent frees sticky lifters, valves, and rings to quiet noisy engines. Dissolves sludge, carbon, and gum to extend engine life. Cleans all internal engine parts for more pep and power. Protects critical engine parts during high speed or stop and go driving.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do you use regular two stroke oil or synthetic?
Sorry for the "ned" questions but don't want to screw up your recipe when I try making your lube..

[runfiverun]

i don't think they make it any longer.
cd-2 is just the brand name of the 2 stroke oil i use right now cause i have a little in a container, i have also used itasca brand from the local dollar store. [it's in a little green bottle and is about 4oz's]
and the silver jug from walmart or alco,i forget the name of it and the boat is in storage.
the description of cleaning the carbon is what the 2-stroke is for, it also leaves a very low ash content behind when burned.
allowing the atf to be the bore conditioner.
brand name isn't important the base ingredients are and most 2 stroke base ingredients are very similar [the same] it's what they add that gives them their advertising gimmick.
just like gasoline slogans.
just plain ole 2 stroke oil is what you want, it's nothing fancy like synthetic or ultra uuber nothing.
it's mostly a mineral oil base [like the vasoline] and polyol's [like the atf base]
and ester's [like the b-wax]

[Nrut]

Thanks R5R,
And thanks for sharing the work that you have done with bullet lubes!

[ubetcha]

R5R. did you say in your last post to use regular 2cycle oil and not synthetic?
I don't want to screw up either.Just want to make sure I'm reading everything right

[runfiverun]

yeah regular 2 stroke.

we are still workng over the synthetic 2 stroke lubes [gearknasher is mostly]
they seem to respond better to some manipulation of their solvent bases.

we are still working over a sodium stearate based lube trying to refine the process.
once we get that one done we will have a very,very good all round lube.
it however will be much more complicated to make and will be more ingredient specific.

this one is called simple lube because it is simple.
simple to make and negotiable.
you are looking for a specific viscosity from batch to batch.
you use the vasoline to adjust your beeswax to get that same visc from batch to batch.
i weigh and measure so i know what's in there.
adding a little more of the oils makes a difference in the lubes final visc inside the barell.
if you are seeing a little something towards the end of the bbl add a titch more atf. [think you are running out of lube] which you aren't.
if in the middle [lube smears] use just a little more vasoline to make the pressure drop off a little smoother.

this lube can be changed for real cold weather with the addition of a small amount of neatsfoot/mink oil, 1/2 tsp is enough.
but will make the lube respond unfavorably in hot weather.

stay tuned.

[ubetcha]

Made some simple green this morning and everything seems to be good so far.Not crumbly and is slightly tacky.now will let it set a few days and see how it finishes.

[ubetcha]

Goodsteel.That is a good list you have ,but I have read on many occasions that the bullet should be sized at or .001-.002 over throat size in a revolver.

[MBTcustom]

Goodsteel.That is a good list you have ,but I have read on many occasions that the bullet should be sized at or .001-.002 over throat size in a revolver.

That's true, but we are talking about lube, not revolvers.
The point I was trying to make is that irregaurdless of the platform, finding the perfect lube is the final touch in the perfect cast boolit load.
Most shooters need a lube. Booliteers need the lube.

[runfiverun]

excellent tim.
some lubes have a better window as far as pressure/velocity,and alloy compatability.
it's easier to make [modify] a lube [to] work at one end of the pressure/temperature spectrum than it is to make a lube with broad applcations.

[MBTcustom]

I am actually just fine with a lube that is temperature specific if I can tune that lube to work. The big problem for me is knowing how much to tune that lube.
I have been using FWFL since I discovered it, and yours is the next one I am going to try. I bought all the components, now I just have to whip it up and hack out some time to go shooting.

[runfiverun]

carnuba for the heat and atf for the cold. for the felix.
you end up with two lubes and have to switch up between 40-50-f going both directions.
3-4% carnuba and bout the same on the atf

eutetic has been working over a synthetic felix,and an offshoot in his core testing.
he has had some good luck with modified carnuba wax with ester's and alox 350.
in a rough pitted barell,down to @ minus 14.
he done some initial testing of a sodium stearate lube in cold weather too.
we are gonna work the boundary's on this one pretty hard.
don't be surprised to see a hybrid sodium/not so simple lube at some point.

[MBTcustom]

Well, that's why I want to try SL. With FWFL you have to have several totally different batches of lube. It works like magic when you get it right, but it's a bit of a PITA.
I am hoping to see a bigger temperature tolerance with SL and a much simpler process for modifying it to temperature.
Have you ever thought about experimenting with a cold barrel treatment? Like some wonder goo that you can run a saturated patch down the barrel to kind of "prime the pump" as it were?
Something that would make your first cold shot do pretty much what it's supposed to?
I was considering messing with something, but I am no chemist, and your exploits have convinced me that I am not cut out for lube developing game. I know a little bit about the right way to use lube, but I don't have a clue as to why it works. My mind is based in mechanics. If you need a precision platform to launch your boolits from, then I'm your guy, but you start talking chemistry or electricity, and I can show you how dumb I really am.

[geargnasher]

Tim, I think many of us started out with the concept of initiating and maintaining a 'wet' barrel, but we're finding that the LESS left in the barrel the better recently. This means soft, "drier" lubes with high film strength that get their job done quietly like a good janitor and you never knew they were there. You'll know you have it right when your first shot from a clean, dry barrel is the same as the tenth shot in the chosen ambient temperature range.

Like I've said before, a good lube won't make an accurate load, but it will sure break one. A good lube does its job by not detracting from the accuracy potential of the rest of the system. Inherently, it can do nothing on it's own to "improve" accuracy, that's done with the way the other components are assembled and tuned.

Gear

[runfiverun]

that's where the core principle is coming into it's own.
barell condition [internal] is having an effect on how some lubes are proving out.
the rougher the barell the more solid the lube needs to be.
the smoother the thinner type oils seem to play a bigger part.
i'm not sure just yet if it's reacting like oil in an engine or not in how the lube plays a part in the pores of the steel [scratches]
i have read a few times on what has been said about too smooth of a barell not shooting well.
i'm sure this combined with a lubes vi index does have a compatability issue in the long run.
pressure on the boolit from lands and grooves [redial and forward] along with gas pressure also plays a big part in what vi index is needed.
theres a balance needed.
a good lube as pointed out needs a friction index also, whether it's introduced or part of the carriers vi index isn't as important as when/if the lube wet's and flows under these stressors.
all a lube needs to really do is block gas from escaping along the boolit-rifling interface and disappear from the boolit at the muzzle.
it needs to work in the throat and in the bbl [oddly two different situations] and when the powder relaxes enough for the alloy to flex back and settle down in the bbl.
this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.

that's the simple easy explanation.

[MBTcustom]

this one you can pinpoint sometimes as the lube is changing from flowing to not at the same time.
the one at the muzzle can be pinpointed sometimes as too dry also.
you generally work on the lube with different modifiers depending on which one you see.


Run that one my me again, in words that a child could understand.
Seems like you are telling me how to measure something.
So far, my aproach to lubes is pretty hulk smash by you fellers standards. I tried FWFL and got it right, and I think I got lucky with a cold weather modified version (thanks Gear!) but I have not had occasion to test it much. All I know is the boolit landed pretty darn close to where I was aiming at 75 yards when I blew a deer to pieces with too soft a boolit[smilie=1: It was freaking cold that day 15* or thereabouts.
Right now its about 50* outside and raining like crazy which is typical Arkansas in January. I think i have a few cold days left to do some testing in, and I want to get as far as I can when it gets cold. I really got caught with my pants down this year. Usually rifle season in Arkansas is about 50 degrees, but this year we had a sudden cold snap right before opening day.
I had not had occasion to really test the lube in cold weather since last year, and back then, I was focused on paper patching, so I missed the opportunity.
I called gear the day before the hunt with a lot of questions.
So, I started reading up on lube.
If you have a quick and easy way to tell if the lube is close, then I want to hear it.

I might also add, that what would totally suffice in place of the ultimate lube, would be an ingredients chart that would show how to whip it up for different temperature ranges. I could make three-four batches of lube, and color them differently. Each one would handle a certain 20-30 degree range of temperature.
That is how I am planning to approach the "quest". If SL is as tunable as FWFL, then I'll sure give it a try.

[btroj]

Tim, having different lubes like that would make it easy, wouldn't it?
My only problem is that I often have ammo loaded for deer season that I may end up shooting up the next summer. Now I am shooting a 20 degree lube at 80 degrees. I don't have unlimited brass so I often need to shoot up ammo in order to get empty cases for a new load idea.

I think Gear and Run are getting close to a multi-temp lube. Eutectic came along with some ideas that made a right turn in the design process, a turn that it loos made a huge increase in success rate. Sometimes that new view on things is a boon, keeps one on his toes and eliminates tunnel vision.

I don't know that you need 20 degree windows really. A 40 and below lube and a 50 and above lube would be fine. Between 40 and 50 either would work acceptably, I would probably favor the colder weather formula.

I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it. There is way more to this stuff than I am supposed to know, makes my brain hurt otherwise.

Brad

[ubetcha]

The batch of SL I made yesterday kept calling me last night and this morning .I couldn't wait to let it sit a few day.I used it as a pan lube and it worked quite well.Soft enough to cut with a cake cutter and stiff enough to stay in the lube groove. Still nice and tacky.Can't wait to range test it.Just cleaned my Ruger Security Six so I can test the load next time at the range .Two bullets I will be using are the Lyman 358477 and the Lee 358-158 rfn. All unsized at .359 and with an alloy of 2-1 coww/soww. 4.5gr W-W 231.

[MBTcustom]

Another thing I might mention is that I am interested in lube specifically for rifle shooting. My dad was a pistol shooter and a cast booliteer. I followed in his footsteps for several years, but my love is for rifles. They aren't any better, I just can't get enough of 'em!


I think what Run was getting at is the fact you an tell a bit about what the lube needs from where the leading is. Leading in the breech needs one thing, lead at the muzzle needs another. I am reading his comments as leading at the breech might mean a slightly higher viscosity would help while a leaded muzzle means a bit softer lube, more oil, may help. I am by no means an expert on either lubes or Runisms so this is just how I read it.

Well run if that is what you are saying, then I'm in trouble. I would have to start changing something in my setup in order to make the gun start leading. Right now, even in cold weather, I get no leading at 2000fps and air cooled WW lubed with FWFL.
My boolits are fit correctly, and I can do the same thing with one coat of 45/45/10. I'm not using the lube to control leading, I want to use it to improve accuracy.
It seemed to me that you were talking about lube dispersal, possibly a lube star?
Please elaborate my good man!
Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys are talking about exactly what I want to know, and I'm not sure I could catch this wave in a new thread!

[runfiverun]

it's not always about leading.
quite often what we see in the barell is lube/powder fouling.
i found lube tweaking when i was using carnuba red in my 44.
about half way down the barell in my levergun there was something,rough looking and all feathery.
grrrrr
so in goes a patch and out comes some lube&gunk nice and easy like.
hmm out comes a piece of paper tape and i make a mark on the barell.
i happen to have several loads and several lubes with me that day just a clean out the closet type thing.
so i try the load again yeah there it is.
swap to the same lube but with a different powder.
it's still there but it has moved down the barell about 1-1/2-two inches??
patch time same gunk just in a different place.
aha light bulb weak and dim but still on.
gas volume.
i can manipulate this.
next lube things change,next lube clean barell it looks like,next lube gunk all the way down the barell wth.
patch time eeewwww look at all that gunk
lets try again.
same rounds ,,,nothing ....what? nothing.
clean patch comes out clean,,, now how does that happen.
that lube was cleaning out the other lube and that was what i could see the first time.
even though i couldn't see the first lube in the barell is was leaving traces behind.
the lube that was cleaning out the other lubes was/is a lith grease based lube [thickened further with aluminum stearate] it has done the same thing in other guns too.
but had a tendency to throw an occasional purge flyer.
so i started thickening it up some trying to control it's free oils.
got a good mix,then watched it fall apart when the heat come.
i could add more wax and control them further.
if you wanted a lube you could manipulate up and down for heat index in small 20-30 degree windows that would be it.
you would be able to add some carnuba/b-wax at 80 and take the lube to 100+
take the carnuba out and go down to 40,take out some of the b-wax and go down further to 20 or lower if you truly run into 0 and below then adding another oil would bring out what you need there.
manipulating a known good lube is nothing more than controlling the release of oils in temp specific zones.

[btroj]

So lube purging is simply a case of having a lube so fluid that it moves the gunk clean out of the muzzle. I am also assuming that most lubes that tend to have purge issues also leave a really wet lube star?

I am also reading into this a bit more. The viscosity change is what determines how far down the tune the goo builds up. Close to breech, thin the mix. Clear out the muzzle, thicken it up. We aren't really adding or subtracting lubrication, we are simply modifying the total lube viscosity and how it behaves under pressure in the barrel.

So a short barrel like a handgun may not show issues in cold the same as a rifle as the lube in a handgun may still be able to have the goo blown clear of the muzzle.

That is my take on the current Runisms.

[geargnasher]

So lube purging is simply a case of having a lube so fluid that it moves the gunk clean out of the muzzle. I am also assuming that most lubes that tend to have purge issues also leave a really wet lube star?

I am also reading into this a bit more. The viscosity change is what determines how far down the tune the goo builds up. Close to breech, thin the mix. Clear out the muzzle, thicken it up. We aren't really adding or subtracting lubrication, we are simply modifying the total lube viscosity and how it behaves under pressure in the barrel.

So a short barrel like a handgun may not show issues in cold the same as a rifle as the lube in a handgun may still be able to have the goo blown clear of the muzzle.

That is my take on the current Runisms.

That is pretty much it. Simple Lube is a basic approach to doing this, and it can take higher velocity and pressure than some of the other simple lubes (like beeswax/vaseline), so is more useful, and it won't accumulate hard fouling like the classic NRA 50/50. Just adjust the total viscosity for the temp with vaseline or ATF, and add/subtract the two-stroke oil to deal with gum issues. I think two versions would be plenty to run the gambit of temps.

To make and all-around lube, you have to find ingredients to balance the lube through the entire spectrum of temps, pressures, velocities, lube groove volume, and bore finish. I think we're really close to this with several formulas, just need more testing.

Simple Lube, though, will probably end up doing it all with two versions provided you don't expose the ammo to too much heat. Ben's Red is another good, basic, middle-of-the-road lube, basically a replacement for NRA 50/50. Felix Lube is still my Go-To when all else fails, but to do it all I've needed to adjust it.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Tim, I know you're after some specific formulas, and they will come with more testing I'm sure, but in the meantime, try the Simple Lube per the recipe, two strings of ten shots each, five to a group, allowing the rifle to cool to near ambient temperature in between. Examine the bore, muzzle crown, etc., and overlay the four targets in the order they were shot to see what happened to the groups. Numbering each shot helps, especially if you get flyers. That should be all it takes to get an idea of how it's working. If your groups hold up.

Longhorn lube was doing really well until after the first ten in a session, I was getting 1-2 bad flyers in the second set of ten, near the end. It helps to know exactly where the flyers are occurring in the count for lube adjustment. Also, more data is better, I didn't conclude I was having flyers until about the fourth set of 20 shots from two different guns, several lube tweaks were made and many more groups fired, and lo and behold, the changes to the lube had a very obvious effect. You do this long enough and you can sort of predict what will do what and allow you to speak in the somewhat cryptic generalities that Run and I tend to do here.

Gear

[btroj]

Isn't everything Run types a bit cryptic? Hence my term, Runisms. He does have a particular style.

I think Simple Lube is a great step forward. Easy to make. Easy to obtain ingredients. Would fit the bill for 90 percent of all shooting.

I need to find a day with decent weather to get out and see how Bens Red handles the cold. Need to sight in the 375 with the scope my wife got me for Chritmas too.

[runfiverun]

yeah it takes me a while to express what i see in my head.
i see pictures of how things work and then have to try and express the mechanics of it in words and sometimes the words i use have two different meanings or seem to contradict each other.
it's like a jaxketed boolit striking a medium i "see" the lead and jaxket flowing and moving together not just the boolit opening in a certain way.
it's how i see lube/pressure and alloy working in a barell.
only i have a hard time slowing everything down in the throat enough to express what's happening.
and then i get a migraine.

[btroj]

I totally understand the "see it in the mind" thing. Trying to describe to others what you can visualize can be a pain.
I have that issue with my father, he isn't a visualizes at all. Needs to see it on paper.

I must not be thinking hard enough, I don't get migraines. I am OK with that.

[runfiverun]

felix put up a post in the extreme thread.
i highlighted part of it, explaining the middle section of what the lube smear was showing.
a middle modifier is what was needed to fix the smearing right there, something that made the transition from when the oils were working to when the waxes were working.
remember the wax is what takes up the pressure and makes the jump in the throat but it is just a solid wax at that point and contributes nothing to the lubrication [no wet] unless ambient temperature,or too much oil, causes it to be.

[btroj]

So wax is what keeps the gas blowby under control in the throat til we get a good seal. That is where the transition from wax to oil takes place. Now the oil gets released (?) by the carrier and wets the bore. The place where this transition takes place is the variable.

That about right?

It makes sense to me. Years ago I was getting throat leading in my 1911. BassAkwards suggested a thin coat of LLA on the same lubed bullets to stop this. It worked like a charm. All I was doing was stopping gas blow by.

It is all coming clearer and clearer to me.

[Marlin Junky]

So wax is what keeps the gas blowby under control in the throat til we get a good seal. That is where the transition from wax to oil takes place. Now the oil gets released (?) by the carrier and wets the bore. The place where this transition takes place is the variable.

That about right?

It makes sense to me. Years ago I was getting throat leading in my 1911. BassAkwards suggested a thin coat of LLA on the same lubed bullets to stop this. It worked like a charm. All I was doing was stopping gas blow by.

It is all coming clearer and clearer to me.

Yeah, John Barlow had a really good idea way back in '06.

MJ

[runfiverun]

yeah and further down the bbl you have a point where gas pressure drops off.
this allows the boolit and the lube seal to relax making another transition where the lube has to remain in [or get to] a wet stage enough to cover up the boolits relaxation and seal.
hopefully the wax is in a plastic enough state by now to make the transition not too wet or too hard.
then you need the glide going out to the end of the barell so that the lube can be flung off.
at any time before the relaxation point the lube being too viscous can cause gas cutting.
it being not viscous enough during and after this point causes jettison issues and can contribute to muzzle leading.

[FrankG]

How many sticks would the recipe in the first post yield if poured into hollow stick moulds ? I would like to be able to do a batch run while Im at it :)

[runfiverun]

i'm not sure what a hollow stick weighs, about an oz i think.
a batch will do about 2,000-2,500 429241's or 454424's
or about 12 million 38 boolits [probably 5-k] it just seems like 12 million.

[SlippShodd]

How many sticks would the recipe in the first post yield if poured into hollow stick moulds ? I would like to be able to do a batch run while Im at it :)

I made a 1/4 batch today (used some blue semi-synth 2-stroke so I'd get green lube, dammit... first batch I did with regular 2-cycle was boring tan) and poured a .75"x3.75" solid stick. I held a little back 'cuz there was some gak in the bottom of my pouring cup that I didn't want in the stick.
I'll be more clever with my next stick mold so they're hollow...

mike

[MBTcustom]

yeah and further down the bbl you have a point where gas pressure drops off.
this allows the boolit and the lube seal to relax making another transition where the lube has to remain in [or get to] a wet stage enough to cover up the boolits relaxation and seal.
hopefully the wax is in a plastic enough state by now to make the transition not too wet or too hard.
then you need the glide going out to the end of the barell so that the lube can be flung off.
at any time before the relaxation point the lube being too viscous can cause gas cutting.
it being not viscous enough during and after this point causes jettison issues and can contribute to muzzle leading.

And I guess all this is having to happen over top of the residue left from the previous shots, which must play a role too.
I understand why you would want a "dryer" lube that does not leave any residue. If nothing else, it makes the residue left in the barrel less of an issue, one less in a list of about ten to fifteen.

It's kind of like trying to find your way out of a locked room with doors of every size, (some you can barely fit through) and a kiosk in the center of the room that has 100 keys on it, that must be pushed in a certain order to unlock a door.
Or trying to guess the combination of a safe that has three dials on it?
That's what makes my head swim. More than three variables that can change the equation. With lube, it seems like every change causes an effect on everything else.

[btroj]

Tim, if it was easy would it be fun? Aren't some of the projects you have worked on similar? Figuring out how to machines a part for exampl. Done in the right order it isn't bad, do it out of order and things go to heck quick.

I will say to certain that the more technical aspects of this are new ideas to me. Never though about what happens to the bullet part way down the barrel when the pressure drops low enough to stop ensuring obturation of the bullet. Once Run mentioned this it becomes obvious that the lube needs to be capable of ensuring a seal is held. Isit obvious to a casual observer? Nope. I think it is interesting that this may be the cause of muzzle leading.

Biggest thing to understand is that a lube, like a bullet, goes thru numerous parts of the firing sequence and what happens at each has unique demands. That was the big "ahhhh" moment for me in all this.

[Eutectic]

Isn't everything Run types a bit cryptic? Hence my term, Runisms. He does have a particular style.


I agree! Run is indeed unique! There is a LOT of experience inside Run that is trying to come out to help us all....

I said early on in the "Extreme" thread that Run just might be the one to come up with 'it'.... 'It' being The Extreme lube formula. I still believe this.

While he can come across as 'cryptic'. I believe him genuine. I see no innuendos or 'cryptic camouflage' in any of his posts.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

you both have a good grasp of the idea.
the thing is [term trick comes to mind] is you have a different gas volume to deal with 5 grs of red dot or whatever in the 45 is different than 10 grs of unique or 18 grs of 2400 or 30 grs of 4895 in different barells.
so you have that pressure peak in different places,and a relaxation point in different places along the barell.
keeping the lube friction high helps the carry over of the different ingredients across the length of the barell.
keeping just enough oil release to not muck up the works helps keep the seal.
this is why we have gotten away from the high oil content lubes and have shifted to low oil content high friction ones.
we are focusing on the middle modifier that will help on both ends.
i need to get in gear and go grab some mineral oil for a sodium soap modification i wanna try.
to try and replace the inferior grade of vaseline we have available right now.

[rhbrink]

Well now I know why I sometimes get a rough spot in my 03A3 barrel about 3/4 of the way down the barrel, shoot enough and then sometimes lead will show up there and not at the muzzle. It doesn't happen with a premium lube that I buy but does with most of the home made varietys and some of the receipes that I have tried here. The Simple lube did for me too so I added some X- Lox to it but haven't had a chance to try it.

Richard

[runfiverun]

excellent.....some good feed back.
richard.
let us know how the alox works.

your little fuzz spot there is exactly what i was describing.
i'd like to know your powder [i have an idea what it's burn rate is allready]
alox does make the lube a little softer and more flexable but it might have some purge flyers.
and they may not show up untill late into a long string of fire [around 18-20 shots]

this is the negotiable part i was talking about earlier, another tsp of vaseline or 1/2 tsp of atf could fix this part of it for richard.
the non standardization of vaselne/white petrolatum is letting us down again.

[rhbrink]

18 grains of 2400 with NOE 311299 for one load this has been my go to load for about a year and often I shoot the rifle until it gets hot as in competition during the heat of last summer. I was thinking that 2400 was the problem so I switched to 5744 and that didn't seem to make any difference. I also started shooting the new NOE 311365 which holds more lube than the 299 and still didn't make any noticable difference. The lube store bought lube was LBT which for sure works but I seem to get a purge problem now and then with it usually right at the worst time, usually during a match after a long string all of a sudden there goes a couple of wild flyers. I recently bought a some White Label 2500+ and it shoots very well but haven't shot it enough to find any problems.

I would really like to make my own and keep following threads like this one thanks to you and Felix and several others I keep plugging along looking and expermenting. Keep up the good work and thanks.

Richard

[runfiverun]

i was thinking 17-18 grs.
try just a little more of the vaseline [one more tsp per batch]

[rhbrink]

Will do.

RB

[shooter93]

You know Lamar....the simplest way for me to get the simple lube would be for you to just send me a 100 lbs.

[runfiverun]

i might still have your address.
i have some extra polyglycol/b-wax based lube i found today,from a mixing test.
it's still semi doughy,and tacky.
i'm almost done lubing everything i have and won't need it :lol:
it needs some pressure to flow though....
it does much better if you keep pressure behind the boolit all the way to the muzzle..
i have taken it to full j-word velocity in the 0-6 [and accidentally past it when using some 7283 powder and a super tight fitting boolit]

[rhbrink]

I was able to get to the rifle range yesterday to try some more shooting with the Simple Lube + 2 1/2 teaspoons of X-Lox this was some that had been left in the open for some of the mineral sprits to evaporate. I was shooting a O3A3 using the NOE 312299 with 17 grains of 5744. It worked real well for me even though the wind conditions were more than I like, had wind gust from 15 to 25 mph and the groups showed it. I was able to maintain the vertical spread to 1" but the horizonal was more like 2 to 2 1/2 inches very acceptable for me under those conditions plus using issue iron sights at 100 yards. No dry spot 3/4 of the way up the barrel, nice lube star at the muzzle, no lead, easy cleaning after 50 rounds certainly worth expermenting with some more. And very easy to make I like that.

Richard

[runfiverun]

now to trend it over long strings.
keeping alox under @ 20% or so has done well for me.
getting up over that does cause some ocassional issues.
but they seem to be fairly predictable if they do occur.

[SlippShodd]

Aw, Run, you went and changed your avatar! I've always been comforted in knowing you had my back, and now this grumpy looking half a pair of slippers. First Gear takes down the best sig line ever for craftsmen, leaving you as the last bastion of hope for humankind... The little girl got to you, didn't she?

mike
:cry:

[runfiverun]

naw i just like the grumpy little dog.
he reminds me of the way i have been feeling towards how the country has been going.
little girl did put it up.
i told her grumpy dog.
she picked grumpy puppy,not qute the same.

i think i got just bout everybody's back, i have a room full of them now.:lol:

[leftiye]

I thought it was a cartoon character. Looks some on the manic side eh?

[runfiverun]

reminded me of my nephew when he was about three.
he was in his highchair being a tired/obstenate toddler.
my dad say's "i think it's time for your nap" little ben got a look like that puppy has and say's,"i think grampa needs a nap".
then promptly passed out in his lunch plate.
that was 15 years ago and i still laugh about it.

[geargnasher]

Aw, Run, you went and changed your avatar! I've always been comforted in knowing you had my back, and now this grumpy looking half a pair of slippers. First Gear takes down the best sig line ever for craftsmen, leaving you as the last bastion of hope for humankind... The little girl got to you, didn't she?

mike
:cry:

And there I was thinking nobody payed attention to such things. I still think Lamar has the best sig line on the board.

Gear

[hogstad7]

I am planning to make my first lube soon. Will this work for panlubing? (No, I have not read the whole thread) Can I use this for 9x19, .38spl and .357mag?

[runfiverun]

works fine for pan lubing.
i have only tried it in my 9x19 so far and a couple of other cartridges.
but it has been used in the 45 colt with heavy loads and in some 30-06 rifles with good results.
it remains a titch softer for easier cutting out of the pan cold if you add another spoon of the vaseline, unless you cut them out a little warm.

[runfiverun]

it's getting to be that time of year again.
so i'm just kicking this thread back up on the front page.

send us the feed back you are seeing with this lube...please.

[Screwbolts]

Feed back on Simple Lube.

I just ran a test with one of my AR15 rifles, I just ran 120 rounds threw it as fast as I could reload a 10 round mag, my 130 yard gong is still probably swinging. The barrel was way above smelling hot. The load was 21 gr of surplus WC844 in mixed head stamp mil cases, the Boolit was a water dropped Mihec Nato 227-65 , boolit weight ready to load was 63.9 gr with my WW alloy and Simple Lube. Gator gas checks and some aluminum from a Freecheck III were mixed together. They average 2300 FPS from my 16" upper using my Crony.

After shooting, I brought the rifle right to the bench for examination of the upper, the front of the YH floated forend was very warm, barrel and Dragon Breath muzzle device would sizzle water. The Bore looked spotless, I ran one patch with Tipton solvent to wet the bore, there was no trace of lead on the patch. I ran a brush 20 strokes re wetting every 4 strokes it seemed to be smoking every time it exited the muzzle, maybe just solvent flashing off very fast. I was concerned about my bore guide but it was undamaged by the barrel heat. After brushing ran 3 dry patches pushed from breach, not a trace of leading, just blackened from solvent.



I am very happy with this lube!!!!!!

I mixed it as listed in post 1, other than, times 4 I used a pound of wax so I quadrupled all ingredients. Walmart, Dextron III , Vaseline brand jelly, same green (Hitaska ? ) container of 2 cycle lube.

[geargnasher]

I'm starting to draw some parallels between this stearate-free lube and lack of antimony wash from rapid-fire/higher velocity shooting.....Interesting.

Gear

[runfiverun]

ian you also relating that with pressure to the muzzle..

[Idaho Mule]

Just made my first batch this morning. Used the recipe at the very start of thread. I will let you know if I see any problems but I doubt if I will see any. Thanks. JW

[SlippShodd]

Perhaps mine is an isolated concern, but what are the acceptable levels of doghair and sawdust in this lube?

mike

[Idaho Mule]

Welll.... I think since they are both carbon based that as they go down the barrel the lead slug will get more and more cleaned (fluxed) the farther it goes. This could result in an "absolutely sterile" type boolit under the right circumstances. Please note that although I am ok with the dog hair, and sawdust (I truly think they would make for a cleaner boolit) travelling thru the bore; I do NOT suggest cat hair of any type for this experiment. 2 reasons for that: 1) the pppffFFFTTT!! factor, I believe would be detrimental to a boolits true flight charactaristics; and 2)the cat always lands on it's feet factor, I believe that this will seriously mess up any bc originally assumed to said boolit, causing undo tumbling, twisting, etc... Upon further inspection and serious thought I believe tumbling in sawdust would be your best bet. Your mileage may vary. JW

[MBTcustom]

I do NOT suggest cat hair of any type for this experiment. 2 reasons for that: 1) the pppffFFFTTT!! factor, I believe would be detrimental to a boolits true flight charactaristics; and 2)the cat always lands on it's feet factor, I believe that this will seriously mess up any bc originally assumed to said boolit, causing undo tumbling, twisting, etc... JW

That's not totally true. If a cat were to break the sound barrier, the "lands on it's feet" phenomenon ceases to apply.
(Enter bohemoth potato canon recommissioned for scientific experiments)
However, if you paper patch your cat, he'll fly pretty strait even at a lowly 300fps, and hold a 6" group on a 6' oak tree.:twisted:
Irregaurdless, you need to keep the lube you use for your ballistic cats, separate from the lube that you use for lead boolits LOL!

[shredder]

that's not totally true. If a cat were to break the sound barrier, the "lands on it's feet" phenomenon ceases to apply.
(enter bohemoth potato canon recommissioned for scientific experiments)
however, if you paper patch your cat, he'll fly pretty strait even at a lowly 300fps, and hold a 6" group on a 6' oak tree.:twisted:
Irregaurdless, you need to keep the lube you use for your ballistic cats, separate from the lube that you use for lead boolits lol!
bwa ha ha ha ha ha !!!!

[runfiverun]

i dunno about the sawdust part.
i know dog hair when mixed with dryer lint makes a pretty good filler.
if you use a carnuba based lube in conjunction with the dog hair dacron replacement the filler will slide real fa.

[Screwbolts]

Is there a special recipe for the Carnuba based lube to be used with dryer lint and dog hair. What if there 2 types of dogs supplying the hair? Any special treatment needed for short hair verses long.

[SlippShodd]

Holy thread hijack! Sorry, Run. I was just asking because of the known contaminants in my shop that I observed when I was remelting some to pour back in the stick mold after pan lubing some boolits. Folks what don't find gunpowder, wood dust or dog hair agreeable don't do well at my house. :)

I don't have anything really to report back on the lube. I fired 10 test rounds out of my AR today with it, mostly to see if they flew downrange (they did) and when I ran a tight, dry patch down the bore, all I got was a kind of greasy powder fouling on the patch and 3 or 4 teeny, tiny, dust-like particles of lead. There was no observable lead in the barrel prior to the patch. To be fair, it's a very new barrel -- these rounds made a total of 145 that have been down it, 15 of which were cast. It ain't even broke in yet.
More later.

mike

[runfiverun]

heck i think i'm the king of thread drift...
they wander and come back, if we can't have some fun doing this why bother. [hand up gesture]

i think as long as the dog hair reaches the powder and the boolits base with a little compression you'll be fine no matter the dog.
if you really want a goos carnuba recipe you'll have to look at the one eutetic is working with in the quest thread it has some delicios candy sounding name.
or you could make it yourself from b-wax with 30% alox,and 10% white lith assembly grease added.
then mix that 2 sticks to 1 of lars's carnuba red [not just for the carnuba wax b.t.w.] and add 5% lanolin.
that is one of the best lubes i have ever used, but it takes a little heat to flow.
the dog hair cotton dryer-lint keeps everything fairly dry and the carnuba keeps everything shiney.

[rhbrink]

I tried the Simple lube again but like before I just can't get a decent day to do any shooting. If it warms up enough to be in the low 40's range the wind blows 25mph+. I really wanted to do some shooting at 200 yards as this is the make it or break it for me as far as accuracy goes but I couldn't keep my targets stapled to the backer so moved back to 100 and had the same results as before. I shot 50 rounds, no lead, easy clean up, no dry spots down the barrel and it shot as well as any of the preminum lubes under the same conditions. I'll try again one of these days.

RB

[taco650]

a few people have asked me about a simple easy to make lube.
and here is an easy to make no fuss lube.
the ingredients are easy to find.

i call it simple green.

4 oz's beeswax [by weight solid]
4 teaspoons of white petrolatum [vaseline]
2 teaspoons of two stroke oil [i use cd-2]
2 teaspoons of atf [i use dexron]
you can add 1/8th teaspoon of lanolin if you wish.

here is the cooking instructions.
melt the beeswax dump everything in and stir.
pour out to cool..

works in a lubrisizer with room temp,and should make a decent pan lube too.
[i don't pan lube so haven't tried it.]
you can add a third tsp of 2 stroke oil if you want it a little softer [or for quite cold weather].
it's pretty tacky but stays in the lube grooves when rattled around with other boolits.


What would you add (or subtract) to make it better suited to warmer climates? I'm in GA and it gets hot here in the summer.

[runfiverun]

nothing to begin with.
if you are gonna be out shooting in over 100-f then 3-5% carnuba is gonna help you.
this lube is a bit dry to begin with and will handle heat pretty well as is.
the vasoline is your big modifyer it softens the lube, you use a titch more for below 40-f [which is where i'd stop using the carnuba] and if under 15-20 you add a little more atf.

[cga]

For the 2 cycle oil, would it be ok to use the type that comes in the small bottles and not the quart size? The small 6.4 oz. bottle is sold by Stihl, and is what I have on hand. Makes 2 1/2 gals. of chain saw gas.

[taco650]

nothing to begin with.
if you are gonna be out shooting in over 100-f then 3-5% carnuba is gonna help you.
this lube is a bit dry to begin with and will handle heat pretty well as is.
the vasoline is your big modifyer it softens the lube, you use a titch more for below 40-f [which is where i'd stop using the carnuba] and if under 15-20 you add a little more atf.

OK thanks for the info.

[Kirk Miller]

Not being the brightest light in the harbor, I made several batches of simple lube adding or subtracting various ingredients. Eventually I remembered that I had been using red line 2-st. synthetic oil. Just could not stop the occasional purge flier. When the bulb in my brain lit up, the reason became obvious. The red line oil is too slick for use in the original recipe.

What I wound up with is this. Two tsp. red line 2-st. and 2.5 tsp. ATF. and 4 oz. b/w. It takes about five days to fully unify, but when it does, the result is a fairly soft with good smear ability. So far I've shot it in 20, 25, 35, and 40-3 degrees. Groups have held together and groups are some of the most consistent that I've shot. Now this is only in one rifle ( 222 rem mag) and may very well fall apart in warmer weather or a different rifle.

This version of modified simple lube I'm sure, is no better than the original but at least for me, is a viable alternative when using a full synthetic 2-st oil instead of just the standard 2-st.

At first I was concerned at the apparent dryness; I mean this stuff almost feels as dry as paper. The oils must release upon friction with the barrel steel because the bore appears almost wet with no leading or dry spots. The lube star is almost non-existent and dry. However, and there is always a however, I get the feeling that this lube won't hold up in the heat. If that happens, I think that a .5 tsp. reduction of ATF with the addition of one or two tsp. of vaseline might work?

Again a thanks to Gear and R5R for the motivation to play mad scientist and extend the enjoyment of my hobby.
Kirk

[runfiverun]

i use the regular stuff, just because it's cheap and easy to get.
that was the origional intent of doing this...
the synth acts a little differently, but like kirk's post above points out, you can see it's just another tweak to balance things again.

this is a good lube,and easy to play with, it takes substitutions and additions pretty easily, it will allow you to fine tune it into a rifle,and is a good pan or sizer lube.

it's just simple lube,otherwise there would be cooking directions and temperature requirements.

[geargnasher]

I've made, shot, modified, and shot some more at least four versions of lube containing Redline Racing 2-stroke as the slick ingredient, and it works great except I battled purge flyers from the get-go. Had to cut the percentage WAY back in the stuff I was using in order to reduce the flyers from every third or fourth to one or two out of the last ten in a twenty-shot string. You're not kidding it's slick stuff.

I'd suggest using a PAO instead of a POE or even a conventional or semi-synthetic two-cycle lube in the Simple Lube recipe. You can get away with more slick if you control it with metal soaps, but that is often un-necessary and defeats the whole purpose of the Simple Lube concept.

Gear

[rhbrink]

I used outboard motor 2 cycle oil, Johnson Outboard oil in the metal pop top cans some old stuff probably from back in the 60's because that's what I had. It worked so guess that it's all right I've only got 6 pints left should make a lot of lube. Might be the secret ingrediant anybody want some better get it while you can.

RB

[SlippShodd]

I used a semi-synth 2-stoke just because it was blue and made the lube turn out green. I wanted green. It's kind of a cross between OD and Zombiemax. The first five cast rounds I shot in the barrel I used Felix lube and had a big flyer. The last ten with a stiffer load and the green Simple lube all grouped together in the 2 fives I shot. The only variant in them was SR and Mag SR primers. The mags (Wolf) shot a tighter group, but I had a hangfire which made me a little pi$$y. I was still rock-solid on the bull through the click-bang and the round stayed in the cluster. I have another batch of Simple lube with conventional 2-cycle that is Desert Tan that I haven't tried yet. I'm gonna up the load and try a few with both lubes. I'm really baby-stepping my intro to cast in .223.
I'm coming down with a cold and have some odd drainage going on in my right ear. Any room for earwax in this lube?

mike

[Screwbolts]

Not sure on the earwax, but, IMHO, some ball powders don't always like wolf primers. I know with all my lots of WC844 wolf will give me a hang fire occasionally. The wolf work well with TAC, and all extruded powders I have tried them with.

[runfiverun]

throw it in
if you got 4 oz's of it i could work sumthin up to make it shoot.
i don't wanna be there when you melt it down though [shudder] :lol:

[Screwbolts]

I'm really baby-stepping my intro to cast in .223.


mike

IMHO there is no need to baby step for the 223, both the NOE 225-55 FN and the Mihec Nato boolitz have been and still are a lot of fun out of ARs.

The Simple Lube is working great!

[taco650]

I used a semi-synth 2-stoke just because it was blue and made the lube turn out green. I wanted green. It's kind of a cross between OD and Zombiemax. The first five cast rounds I shot in the barrel I used Felix lube and had a big flyer. The last ten with a stiffer load and the green Simple lube all grouped together in the 2 fives I shot. The only variant in them was SR and Mag SR primers. The mags (Wolf) shot a tighter group, but I had a hangfire which made me a little pi$$y. I was still rock-solid on the bull through the click-bang and the round stayed in the cluster. I have another batch of Simple lube with conventional 2-cycle that is Desert Tan that I haven't tried yet. I'm gonna up the load and try a few with both lubes. I'm really baby-stepping my intro to cast in .223.
I'm coming down with a cold and have some odd drainage going on in my right ear. Any room for earwax in this lube?

mike

What color does the "original recipe" come out? Got pics?

[SlippShodd]

Original Recipe on the left, Extra Crispy... er, Semi-Synthetic on the right. Both minor dog hair and sawdust, zero earwax content. No dryer lint filler used with NOE 225-55.
BTW, RunFiveRun's original formula was green with a non-synthetic 2-stroke.

mike

61934

[runfiverun]

mine come out a titch lighter green than the one on the right.
color don't matter.
i really should have just called it simple lube like we do now.
but i had purple,yellow,brown,black,OD-green,and O-D brown lubes all going at the time.
and some of them had other designations like A or Li or E- or [M]
designating a stearate, or whether it was modified.
color and letter code is easy for me to keep straight.

[taco650]

So the 2-stroke oil gives it the color? Guess I could add a crayon if I wanted to really change the color but that would probably make it a little harder/waxier.

[SlippShodd]

So the 2-stroke oil gives it the color?

I think R5R pointed it out earlier, it's the combination of components that determine the color. In my case it was yellow/brown beeswax, red ATF and blue 2-stroke. The vaseline stays pretty neutral. The tan stuff has a brownish 2-stroke in it. The beeswax has a lot to do with the final outcome.

mike

[geargnasher]

Crayons aren't as bad as some would think, most of the name-brand ones have castor wax and paraffin in them. The castor wax does some good in small quantity, and the paraffin in small quantity doesn't seem to hurt anything. Liquid or powder candle dye is the best. Block candle dye isn't all that great, at least not any of the Yaley colors I've tried, and it's chalky, powdery junk I don't want in my lube anyway.

Gear

[runfiverun]

some of the chinese crayons don't help a lube at all and will have a tendancy to just fall through a lube leaving a bunch of gunk on the bottom of the pan.
they must just cram a bunch of clay together with some colored wax stuff
and figure you bought it you got it.
they generally get broke and tossed before half way.

a blue color should make the lube green.

[taco650]

OK so I'll leave the crayons out and just go with the original like everyone says, he he.

[Screwbolts]

Sometimes , well actually all the time, If it isn't broke, Don't try to FIX IT.

[The_Doctor]

Hi everyone... I'm new to this forum, but have been around firearms a LONG time. Just would like to say hello!

RunFiveRun, I experimented about 30 years ago with a lube formula quite similar to your "simple Lube". (Yes, I'm

the same "The_Doctor" from that other forum) When I first purchased my RCBS Lubri-Sizer, I liked the lube it came

with, and attempted to duplicate it using my limited senses and experience. (I'm a retired aircraft mechanic)

My formula, such as it is, is FAR from exact - but I had excellent results with all my cast bullet loads during my

pistol competition years in Toronto. (1980 - 1995 ish)


Here's what I started with: a big chunk of beeswax, a splash of ALOX (I figured it would help

with corrosion prevention, and smelled like the RCBS lube) a glug or two of non detergent

motor oil (I did mention I'm an aircraft mechanic) and a smidgen of STP oil treatment, for the

"slippery" quotient. I never bothered to make hollow sticks, I just poured the molten mass into

the sizer. For over 30 years, this mix has served me admirably. (Albeit, in indoor shooting conditions,

and the ammunition has never been exposed to temperature extremes.) I rarely shoot my cast bullets

outdoors, but that could possibly change in the near future. (Perhaps Cowboy Action Shooting?) I've not

yet had a contaminated powder charger, or primer, or fail to fire using this mixture.


Yes, I realize my proportions are inexact... I went with what "looked good, felt good, and smelled good."

And my procedure seems to have worked, for me!

I also rustled up a lube for my cap and ball revolvers which was based on (again) beeswax, and a lot more

non detergent motor oil. I heated, stirred and tested until the consistency of the mix was similar to a fibrous

wheel bearing grease. It, too, smells nice! LOL!


Thank you all for letting me join your forum.


Sincerely,


The_Doctor

[SlippShodd]

Thank you all for letting me join your forum.

Like we had a choice.
Er, um, I mean... Welcome to our little slice of insanity! [smilie=s:

mike
(Cripes, I'm gonna get put in time-out again...)

[runfiverun]

the doctor can take it :lol:
he just mustered out of the service.

i thought you were allready a member here guess that would splain why i hadn't seen you post..
hope to see you around a LOT.

[OLPDon]

Welcome Back Doc:

Backsliding can happen to anyone. Let us get the fatted lamb and add tallow to the mix....

Don

[runfiverun]

actually adding the stp and the alox is what helped that lube...
you basically used them to make a thin tacky calcium stearated grease from the oil.

[The_Doctor]

actually adding the stp and the alox is what helped that lube...
you basically used them to make a thin tacky calcium stearated grease from the oil.

If the truth be told, I haven't actually recently mustered out of anything. I'm just old and cranky. LOL

But now, the STP I've used in my "formula" I think has addded to the "slippery" factor as well as assisting

the softening of powder residue. My cast loads are mild by most standards, but I have not yet had a trace

of lead fouling in my barrels. (Before I sold my Colt SAA 45, my favourite load was a 200 Gr, SWC pushed with

10 gr of Unique. It was accurate in my 7.5" Colt, and really pleasant to shoot.)


I've been away from the shooting sports for many years now, and am anticipating getting

back into the swing of things soon. No sense in letting the Vault Queens gather even more dust! LOL


Again, thanks for the welcome.




The_Doctor

[runfiverun]

stp is origionally from the studebaker corp [studebaker petro is what stp stands for]
it has a sticky in it called paratack it's a long chain molecule.
it's also used in lucas oil products,chain saw oils, and some 2 stroke oils.
in the stp it's a poe/poa base, solvents and paratack,it helps oils cling and climb.

[SciFiJim]

What does "poe" and "poa" stand for?

[runfiverun]

polyolephinester [like atf]
and polyolephinalphetic [like base oils for grease]
poa's will make a b-wax more crumbly and dry usually inducing a dry scale on the surface.
poe's are usually better absorbed into the wax,they CAN however have base solvents that will dry out when exposed to air and or heat.

[The_Doctor]

polyolephinester [like atf]
and polyolephinalphetic [like base oils for grease]
poa's will make a b-wax more crumbly and dry usually inducing a dry scale on the surface.
poe's are usually better absorbed into the wax,they CAN however have base solvents that will dry out when exposed to air and or heat.

Wow. Lots of technical stuff to learn. Just by pure luck, I seem to have stumbled upon a working mixture.

I know absolutely NOTHING about Polly's Uncle Fester, and even less about POAs. (POA to me means point of aim)

But, and please forgive me for being repetitive, but I have a great appreciation for the usefullness of STP in the

reloading process. I'm certain it softens the lube substantially - I have some cast 9mm bullets on hand that were

fabricated some 20 or more years ago (never got around to reloading these) and the lube is just as soft and supple

(yet firm) (Wow - this is starting to sound like an "X" rated advertisement! LOL) as it was when I sized them.

I have also given up on commercial case resizing lubes. I "finger apply" a light coating of STP on all my cases when I

resize them, even when reforming to other calibres, without a problem. I've had case dents when I wasn't careful, but

that's my own fault. Wish I had another 30-30, as I have a large supply of 31141 hard cast bullets ready for sizing.

Sold my model 94 in 30-30 a LONG time ago. (sigh) Now I'm looking for a mold for 25 cal, for Grandad's 25-35 Win.

(Model 94)

I expect to be able to shoot it quite a lot this coming summer. The Old Reliable lube should work quite well in .25!



The_Doctor

[runfiverun]

the stp has quite a bit of polybutene in it, that is the sticky and the slippery.
polybutene is the big secret in lots of boolit lubes and in case lubes too.
remember the old roller pads and the lube they used?
that was polybutene that gave them the sticky slippery too.

[Eutectic]

Sadly, current STP has been 'cut' a lot. Current Vasoline is 'cut' too much as well. Modern refining fractionates or strips a lot of the "goodies" for use in other products and more $$$ for them, and gives us a narrow range product compared to say 50 years ago.

I had a quart of Standard Oil 'Alta-Vis 215' that finally went bad on me. It was over 50 years old. Older STP was this fraction with a few additives extra in small %. We sold many a tank car of Alta-Vis 215 to Studebaker Corp. who offered the first STP oil treatment. IF I could still get that old STP I'd use it along with Dexron III for the 'oil' in my lube. These days I prefer a good quality chain bar lube (with naphthenic base) in my lube formulas rather than current day STP.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

notice eutetic said napthenic base oil, not a poa [oil] type.
vasoline has changed over the years and i [and a few others] have been looking for a suitable replacement.

[geargnasher]

Polyalphaolephins are a man-made molecule, very consistent in size and shape, which makes oils with very uniform viscosity characteristics in all temps, but also makes them tough to blend. POE's are ester oils as opposed to olefins. The napthenics are natural petroleum oils that have had the waxes cracked out of them and have been fractionated to a gnat's ****, essentially a manual way of making a PAO out of natural stuff without engineering it from scratch.

One thing I think we've been missing in our lubes is the "grey matter", the various-length carbon chains all blended together and representing the range of molecules from hard waxes to thin oil. All that molecule variety makes a tougher, more homogenous, better bonded soft wax in my thinking, which is why it's such a shame that petroleum is so super-refined these days.

A good refinery detective could put the pieces together again and find a variety of products we could use to make a good Vaseline again.

Gear

[runfiverun]

yeah,, a yin/yang wax blend similar to what carnuba red uses could be mixed up.
hopefully it could be reproduced again from the feedstock.
you'd need something like a 50 on the penetration test then a 70,and a 125,135,and something on the real soft end..
plus you'd have to find different melt temps to blend them to go liquid around the 100-f melt temp base, just to get started.

[VictimNoMore]

Just mixed up my second batch of Simple Lube. The first batch, I made it with paraffin, as that was all I had to use. It came out okay, kinda' crumbly.

Found beeswax locally this weekend, and made the second batch.

Wow, what a difference the beeswax makes! I pan lubed about 50 .358 125grn RNFPs (Lee mold), and popped them out of the cake when it had cooled to slightly above room temperature. They came out cleanly, unlike the way they did when I used paraffin.

The texture is very nice; the Simple Lube stays in the grooves really, really well.

I doubled the original recipe, and made enough to fill the pan for lubing PLUS I poured two cupcakes extra for future use. In terms of texture, handling and pan lubing, this Simple Lube appears to be a winner. I hope to shoot these RNFPs in the coming week.

Thanks for the recipe, R5R!

[The_Doctor]

the stp has quite a bit of polybutene in it, that is the sticky and the slippery.
polybutene is the big secret in lots of boolit lubes and in case lubes too.
remember the old roller pads and the lube they used?
that was polybutene that gave them the sticky slippery too.

Well. From what I've been reading lately, my "vintage" STP is worth using sparingly.

And a few searches on Google inform me that polybutene is available, being used in
cosmetics (!) and was (perhaps still is!) used as a bird and squirrel repellant!

Who'da guessed!!!

In any event, I'll stick by my slight variation on Simple Lube; hopefully when the weather
warms up I will once again be able to set up the reloading bench in the garage.

I have not sent any lead downrange in FAR too long.


The_Doctor

[runfiverun]

yeah,, those caulk tubes of bird repellant are mostly polybutene.

the parrafin batch might be fixable with more vasoline,or adding in 2 tbs of mineral oil.
one of the batches of mineral oil/sodium stearate[gel] lube i made was with
micro-parrafin and it come out better than the b-wax version.

[SlippShodd]

Thank you, Lamar. The Simple Lube is helping me very nicely in my AR boolit quest.
PM sent.

mike

[runfiverun]

got it.
anytime,,,i'll try and help where i can.

[Patocazador]

runfiverun:

As a newcomer to lubing, will your simple mix work on muzzleloading bullets with velocities as high as 2100 fps?

[outdoorfan]

Gear mentioned that Redline synthetic 2-stroke is really slippery stuff. How might the Redline compare with Amsoil Saber 2-stroke (100-1), which is what I have on hand? Any experience or knowledge with the Amsoil?

[runfiverun]

bob I don't know how the Vaseline will react with black powder.
I use a b-wax Crisco type lube in mine it has worked forever.
if I were going to try and do a designer lube for black powder I would take a hard long look at using some glycerin because of its water gathering property's.

redline and amsoil are pretty similar in their make-up.
they are both napthenic a [solvent type base]
the atf is all the slippery the lube needs, the 2 stroke is there for a different reason.
if you wanna use the 2 stroke you have I would be more inclined to use just it and none of the other ingredients.
something like a 3 part wax and one part oil would be pretty close.
a little Vaseline could be used to modify the final hardness/malleability and add a little tackiness.

[outdoorfan]

If I make this "simple lube", I'll probably go get the stuff in the original instructions rather than trying to make something else work with modification.

[Patocazador]

bob I don't know how the Vaseline will react with black powder.
I use a b-wax Crisco type lube in mine it has worked forever.
if I were going to try and do a designer lube for black powder I would take a hard long look at using some glycerin because of its water gathering property's.

redline and amsoil are pretty similar in their make-up.
they are both napthenic a [solvent type base]
the atf is all the slippery the lube needs, the 2 stroke is there for a different reason.
if you wanna use the 2 stroke you have I would be more inclined to use just it and none of the other ingredients.
something like a 3 part wax and one part oil would be pretty close.
a little Vaseline could be used to modify the final hardness/malleability and add a little tackiness.

Thanks for the response. I have been using a combo of "Black Gold" lube with Crisco but it was real messy.

[runfiverun]

yeah that's the deal with b/p lube it's sole purpose is to hold the fouling in a soft state until it can be pushed back down the barrel.
for as little of it as I shoot I just go with what works.

[geargnasher]

Ditto. I've made about three variants of Emmert's lube (Olive oil, peanut oil, and canola oil) and they all worked fine for me, but I'm not a 1000-yard purist either.

I'm going to recommend folks stick with cheapo two-stroke oil in the Simple Lube, the super-slick ester and PAO oils can throw a monkey wrench in the works if you're not careful.

Gear

[leftiye]

Sounds kinda like maybe the super slicks aren't much good anywhere, though they might could be used in miniscule proportions like they are in speed green. If another lubricant is already in the mix though, it will probly be too much.

[geargnasher]

Super slicks have their place. Speed Green is 25% oil, that's not what I'd call "miniscule". It hasn't worked very well for me in warm/hot weather, purge flyers everywhere and drippy wet lube star on the muzzle.

Gear

[DrCaveman]

I finally got to shoot some boolits lubed with Simple Green. First experience was very promising!

First, mine came out more tan than green. The ATF was bright red, and the 2-stroke was bright blue. Beeswax was pretty orange.

Second, i had a moment of weakness where i said "i want a shiny bore" so i cooked down a bit of JPW and added it to the mix after it was down to about 2 tbsp. Probably shouldnt have done this but i did and it is well mixed so thats that. Guess there is now some paraffin in there. Also went with the lanolin addition for tack. Yeah im an impulsive addict when it comes to this lube making, prob why im no good at developing my own.

Anyway, this lube is great to work with! Dip lubing, then push through sizing produced perfectly lubed boolits, the lube is nice and hard and doesnt fall out when jostled. You guys werent kidding about letting this set up overnight, it has hardened significantly. The lube that gets on my fingers cleans off easily and doesnt stain my skin or pants. Odor while cooking/melting is pretty pleasant.

Shooting was a treat. I dont think any of my loads (30-30, 45-70, 357 mag rifle) produced any smoke that i noticed. This compared to Darr lube, the Darr smoked a lot for me. Maybe my sparing usage of the Simple Green helped account for this.

My barrels had all been cleaned pretty thoroughly prior to the shooting, so i was expecting a few 'purge flyers' or whatever as the barrel gets cured. I didnt see this in the 357 rifle, first four shots produced a 1" group at 50 yds. It was hard to tell with the 45-70 and 30-30 which only have iron sights. I went ahead and shot a few cans before trying for groups.

The only 'lube showdown' i set up involved a snappy load with the 45-70. 48 gr varget under a 405 gr pill. Chrono showed just under 1600 fps average. Loaded 10 using lithi-bee and 10 using Simple Green. As far as i could tell the Simple Green shot a little lower. Group size seemed equal. Lithi bee smoked more. Speeds were the same using either lube, at least within my powder charge variation.

Ive lost confidence measuring groups with irons. Dunno, maybe my vision is deteriorating too but i am only 33 so it shouldnt be too far gone. Never used any vision correction, last eye test (in high school, for military purposes) showed 20-25 vision. In any case i dont believe ill ever shoot a 1" group at 50 yds with any irons i own. Ive been looking into peep sights.

Conclusion: nice job run! This lube is great to work with, easy to make, and performs within my level of precision. Thanks for coming up with it and sharing.

You are probably all at church right now. Happy easter!

[runfiverun]

well this is a base lube for experimenters.
it does take additions quite well and I am even working on a substitution for the Vaseline.
I think I have one that's readily available in most auto parts stores [or can be ordered at them].
I am just getting a bit behind on stuff.

try that lithi-bee test again in the heat of summer when it's about 90 or so.
i'd like to hear those results.

[fecmech]

Made a mix of the "simple" lube substituting green tranny goo for the vaseline hoping to get a less sticky mix as I lube and bulk store bullets( it wasn't). I had excellent accuracy results with the basic simple lube in my .357 rifle. The load is not too demanding from a lube stand point (130 gr PB @1250 fps) but very accurate. The simple goo strung diagonally vertical when shot for group. My test procedure is start with a clean barrel,fire 3 fouling shots and then go for 10 shot group. After I fired the foulers the first group shot went high left and the group started 2" below that and strung diagonally for about 2"(these were weighed bullets). Using the standard simple lube I get nice round 1-1 1/4" 10 shot groups @ 50 yds. My mix of CR and Magma hard lubes seems to go vertical(about 2") in this 45 deg. weather I've been testing in. BTW the Beta (soap/goo/no oils) lube from the "Ultimate" thread does the nice round 1" groups also. I need to cast some more bullets and see how my "real" mag loads fare with these lubes.

[runfiverun]

excellent thanks fecmech.
that saves me a lot of time.
this is showing the goo is lowering the wet point of the lube.
did you notice a lube star with the green goo mix?
generally a slippery/wet lube will accompany a big lube star just about the time the accuracy starts to go off.
but your test does give me a direction to go.
if you are inclined making a mix without the poe's [atf/2 stroke] might be worthwhile.

[cga]

With a 1895CW, 26" in 45-70, I get a little leading. I added 1/8 teaspoon of lanolin (bag balm) and it seemed to help some. At about 24" the cleaning patch gets a lot tighter. This is with the Lyman 457122. (.458/.459 dia.) Perhaps this bullet does not carry enough lube for a 26'' barrel.

With the RCBS 405g. this mix with the lanolin only gets a couple of very small specks of lead. With or without the gas checks. With out the lanolin, there was a few more lead specks.(.461 dia.)

Bullets were hand dipped and shot as cast. No lube star, and I have not tried it on paper yet. The load for both was 26.5 g. SR 4759.

This was wheel weights, with enough tin based babbitt added to bring the weight down to 405g., from 420g. Same mix for the 457122.

The chamber slug measures just a wisker over both .452 x .458

All in all, not too bad.

[taco650]

Made a mix of the "simple" lube substituting green tranny goo for the vaseline hoping to get a less sticky mix as I lube and bulk store bullets( it wasn't). I had excellent accuracy results with the basic simple lube in my .357 rifle. The load is not too demanding from a lube stand point (130 gr PB @1250 fps) but very accurate. The simple goo strung diagonally vertical when shot for group. My test procedure is start with a clean barrel,fire 3 fouling shots and then go for 10 shot group. After I fired the foulers the first group shot went high left and the group started 2" below that and strung diagonally for about 2"(these were weighed bullets). Using the standard simple lube I get nice round 1-1 1/4" 10 shot groups @ 50 yds. My mix of CR and Magma hard lubes seems to go vertical(about 2") in this 45 deg. weather I've been testing in. BTW the Beta (soap/goo/no oils) lube from the "Ultimate" thread does the nice round 1" groups also. I need to cast some more bullets and see how my "real" mag loads fare with these lubes.

Link to this "ultimate" thread for a recipe?

[runfiverun]

taco:
it's an ongoing sticky on top of this section.
the SL series of lubes starts on about page 95 or so.
it would take about 48 hours to read the whole thing and 48 more to explore the links.
the beta version is:
4oz b-wax
4oz dr tranee assemblee goo
one bar [3.1 or whatever size] of ivory soap.
I add a tbs of mineral oil to mine at the start.
but you have to watch it and make it in a very umm ventilated area.
and make sure you get the heat up over 450-f.

[fecmech]

Here is the link to intructions see post #1735
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?148746-quot-Extreme-quot-boolit-lube-The-Quest/page87


I used this recipe and left out the mineral and castor oil. Just soap,goo, and bwax.

One, 4.5 ounce bar (big bar) of sliced Ivory soap (it comes in big bars and small bars, pay attention when buying). I weighed it and it was 4.2 ounces out of the wrapper.
4 ounces tranny gel
2 tablespoons heavy mineral oil
2 teaspoons castor oil
4 ounces beeswax.

[taco650]

So is the beta version more heat tolerant than your simple lube? I live in GA and summers are hot and sticky enough. Regular candles can soften and become misshapen if stored improperly in the summer heat. I want an easy lube to make (only a few, easily obtained ingredients) that will hold up to the weather down here and still perform well.

[runfiverun]

that is the SL-61.0 version in the box.
the beta is without the oils.
there is a 61.1 with reduced oils
and a 62.0 with lowered mineral oil and no castor oil [the one I favor right now]
there is also a 'plastic version' of all parrafinics and synth 2 stroke called K-2
and I have one with micro-wax and atf
I think brad has done a 50-50 version [61.5 or something] too.
we are still working the final formula.
we are working on a partial blue version too that will be very similar to the BETA.
the biggest problem is we have to shoot these things as we go along and observe them.

[runfiverun]

the beta will handle the heat.
GEAR lives in texas and the beta is too new to know for sure but it's melt point is over 150-f by a long shot.
we are balancing hot/cold with the lube not just going straight to the hot side.

the simple lube has a pretty high melt point also about 130-f if you need it to work in extremely high heat add some carnuba wax [3%] should be enough.

[btroj]

I plan to test the paraffin/K2 "Flubber" version for heat by plainf it in the over on 200 for a few hours. Sitting it on a paper towel will let me see if it bleeds any oils.

The 50/50 beeswax version has more stickiness than the paraffin only but I haven't tested them to see f that is good, bad, or indifferent.

I am certain that this stuff will handle heat like nothing else.

[35 shooter]

r5r your lube works. this is my first post on any subject but i've been lurking for 6 months. big thanks to everyone here as i've garnered more information on these forums than i could have in a lifetime on my own. anyway i'm late replying on this thread but here goes. made the lube and let it set only one day. lubed and sized some 200 grain gc 35 cal. rcbs boolits for my whelen and shot them the next day. first was 8 rounds of 26 grains sr4759 estimated 1800fps. no leading and a.957" and 1.1" 3 shot groups after fouling shot @ 100 yards. next was 33 grains 4759 @estimated 2200 fps and .657" @ 100. then 50 grains of h4895 @ estimated 2500fps .987" group @ 100 yards. no leading at all no wash in the bbl dry patch ran threw with a slick easy feel and bbl was shiny. all this on the same day same conditions and about 90* temp. thanks for making it easy.

[waksupi]

Yep, keep an eye on Uncle R5R, you won't very often go wrong.

[runfiverun]

don't thank me.
other members asked for something simple and easy to make with easily available ingredients that was adjustable for a broad range of application methods.
thank them.

[303Guy]

I haven't read the whole thread so here's a question that may already have been answered; blue 2-stroke oil contains ammonia - is that a good thing for brass and bores?