Is the Savage barrel switch really that easy?

[rtracy2001]

When my oldest daughter wanted to start hunting, I found a cheap Savage 110 long action in 243 at a local pawn shop. I cut the stock down to fit her and took 2 inches off the barrel to better balance the rifle. It shoots well (all my Savage rifles do) and she likes the gun.

Fast forward to today, my youngest has decided that she wants to go deer hunting next year when she is old enough. Daughter #1 won't give up "her" 243, (even offered to let her use my 308 but no!) so I have to buy a gun. (Ow, Ow, Ow, don't twist my arm, right? ;) ) Being the cheapskate that I am I am looking to pull the same trick, buy a used full-size rifle and cut it down to fit the girl. Thus far I have not been able to find another reasonably priced 243.

I was thinking: Supposedly the barrel swap on a Savage 110 is dirt easy. I have seen several 110's in 30-06 with prices approaching the reasonable, and barrels are not insanely expensive (I may be able to make some back by selling the takeoff, but even so the 30-06 + a new barrel is still less than most want for the 243). For that matter, I may be able to talk daughter #1 into stepping up to a 7mm-08 (she wants to hunt elk next year too) so her barrel could go onto Daughter #2's gun and she gets the 7mm-08 barrel.

As I understand it, all I really need is an action wrench, lock nut tool, and a headspace gauge. Remove the old barrel, tighten the new barrel down on the headspace gauge and tighten the lock nut. (assuming the boltface is correct for the intended caliber). It is really that simple?

[Mooseman]

Yes ...It IS !!!

[MtGun44]

No big deal. If you don't want to spring for a headspace gage, use a factory round and
make sure that at least 6 or so are checked to be snug but not binding WITH THE EXTRACTOR
and EJECTOR removed from the bolt so you can really FEEL it.

Should be able to close on a factory round with 1 layer of masking tape on the base, max.

Bill

[Bulldogger]

If it is an older Savage, it should be easy enough. I recently had a new Savage Axis rebarreled after trying to do it myself and the experience was awful.

The gunsmith I took it to after trying till cross-eyed to remove the new .223 bbl said it was the hardest barrel he's ever removed.

Savage now tumbles finished actions in media before coating them with powder coat or whatever plastic-y looking coating mine has. The media is 0.5mm metal balls. This media can and does intrude into the bbl and receiver threads. When unscrewing, you have to #1 put that sucker in a vise tighter than a Scotsman's coin purse, and #2 use compressed air to blow the media out as you turn. Then clean it all up and rebarrel as normal.

The advice of #1 is based on my personal experience, #2 is straight from Savage. I got a call from them after sending back a terribly marred brand new .223 bbl (and that was done by a professional with 10 yrs experience, not me). They called me and explained the new finishing technique and finished with "You should have sent it to us to remove the barrel. We wouldn't have installed the new non-Savage barrel of course, and we NEVER recommend removing our barrels or rebarreling our actions."

I got the Axis to rebarrel to .300 Blackout, and it is now done, but at a cost I could have bought a Remington 700 or a nice older Savage 110. Next time, I will buy something made the year I was born. I might not be easy to fix, but the gun will be...

You Mileage May Vary, I've not heard any horror stories like mine with any Savages, even new cheapo Axis models. But it can happen, and did.

Forewarned is fore-armed.

Bulldogger

[swheeler]

When my oldest daughter wanted to start hunting, I found a cheap Savage 110 long action in 243 at a local pawn shop. I cut the stock down to fit her and took 2 inches off the barrel to better balance the rifle. It shoots well (all my Savage rifles do) and she likes the gun.

Fast forward to today, my youngest has decided that she wants to go deer hunting next year when she is old enough. Daughter #1 won't give up "her" 243, (even offered to let her use my 308 but no!) so I have to buy a gun. (Ow, Ow, Ow, don't twist my arm, right? ;) ) Being the cheapskate that I am I am looking to pull the same trick, buy a used full-size rifle and cut it down to fit the girl. Thus far I have not been able to find another reasonably priced 243.

I was thinking: Supposedly the barrel swap on a Savage 110 is dirt easy. I have seen several 110's in 30-06 with prices approaching the reasonable, and barrels are not insanely expensive (I may be able to make some back by selling the takeoff, but even so the 30-06 + a new barrel is still less than most want for the 243). For that matter, I may be able to talk daughter #1 into stepping up to a 7mm-08 (she wants to hunt elk next year too) so her barrel could go onto Daughter #2's gun and she gets the 7mm-08 barrel.

As I understand it, all I really need is an action wrench, lock nut tool, and a headspace gauge. Remove the old barrel, tighten the new barrel down on the headspace gauge and tighten the lock nut. (assuming the boltface is correct for the intended caliber). It is really that simple?

You need some way to hold the barrel to break the action loose after nut is removed, I use a barrel vise. When I set headspace I do not remove the coil spring ejector but do remove the extractor, don't lose the steel detent ball when you slide the extractor out of bolt face. Always make sure the chamber and bolt face are clean before setting headspace.

[flounderman]

why bother rebarreling? You can load a 110 grain 30 caliber down to 2800 and have the same thing as a 243. Plus the shortened 30 caliber barrel will feel much lighter than a 243 barrel. I have a 30-06 bar with a few inches off the end of the barrel and it changes the feel completely.

[MBTcustom]

When unscrewing, you have to #1 put that sucker in a vise tighter than a Scotsman's coin purse
I resemble that remark!!
For the most part Savage barrel changes are a walk in the park. With any factory rifle, getting the original barrel off is the hard part. Most manufacturers torque the living snot out of their barrels and that is totally unnecessary. Just run it tight and bump the wrench with a rubber hammer a couple times. Also, I would rent the headspace gauge. Its only like $5 from Elk Ridge http://www.reamerrentals.com/searchresults.asp?cat=26
I confess, I do use tape on the base of the Go gauge to check the No Go on hunting chambers, just to make for darn sure that the barrel didn't bottom out on something other than the head space gauge, but for the most part just screw that sucker on, lock it down, and sight it in. Done. (but you need some way to check No Go, even if you do the tape thing, you need something. Its just simple safety.)
The next time you want to replace the barrel, it will probably be a lot easier unless you put a cheater bar on the wrench.
Savages are fun.
BTW, I have a take off barrel from a 7mm-08 Stevens 200. I bought it from a member here along with a .223 thinking that I might use them if somebody comes in with a blown barrel. If you would like either of them, I will make you a really sweet deal.

[DCM]

I would rent the gauges to be sure of things.
I set mine up with a brand new case/cartridge as my go gauge when installing the barrel and give it just a little extra room.
This keeps my brass working to a minimum and allows the rifle to function properly.
I still use the gauges AND new case for a final check when I am done.
If you set it up so it just closes on the go gage it may not close on the new brass/ammo. :roll:[smilie=b:

[rtracy2001]

I would rent the gauges to be sure of things.
I set mine up with a brand new case/cartridge as my go gauge when installing the barrel and give it just a little extra room.
This keeps my brass working to a minimum and allows the rifle to function properly.
I still use the gauges AND new case for a final check when I am done.
If you set it up so it just closes on the go gage it may not close on the new brass/ammo. :roll:[smilie=b:

That is worrysome. Go gauges should be at SAAMI maximum cartridge, so if it closes on the go gauge any SAAMI compliant cartridge of that caliber will fit and headspace within acceptable tolerance.

Sounds like your new brass wasn't sized before loading.

As far as loading a 110 gr bullet for the '06, I'll have to check on that as most 110 gr bullets in 30 caliber are plinking or varmint bullets and may not perform well on game.

[JesterGrin_1]

Years ago I did try the Lighter bullet selections in the 30-06 and there accuracy was not good at all. I did not get accuracy back till I was in the 165 to 180Gr Class.

[DCM]

The go gauge is the MINIMUM for the cartridge.
It should not close on the NO GO gauge if it does you have excess headspace.

[rockrat]

The 125 Nosler BT might be what you want. Also, check into the Barnes 110gr. If I were you, I would grab the 7-08 barrel from Goodsteel (Yeah, I resemble that remark too!!) and just find a 308 bolt face rifle and switch the barrel. I converted my Savage to 300 blackout. Took more time to round up the tools to do the switch ,than it took to do the switch.

[DCM]

Here are some pics of my savage switch barrel and tools.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/odcmp/Savage3Jpeg.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/odcmp/Savage2Jpeg.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/odcmp/Savage1Jpeg.jpg
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g327/odcmp/Savage4Jpeg.jpg

Sorry for the links but CB kept saying that my photos are not photos!

One of the 4 barrels is shouldered so the standard barrel nut is not used the other 3 use the Savage lock nut set up.
The action wrench and barrel vice must be used on that combination.

The no go gauge has a red stripe on it and is 0.0095" longer than the go gauge and yes head-space is actually measured off of the small angled part at the top not the flat. But if one sets the 2 next to each other you would see that the angled part is farther from the base on the no go than the go.

There are a number of boxes in the photo that contain different size/type/style bushings for the barrel vise in the photo one needs to use the correct ones.
The little Brunswick bag is powdered rosin for the bushings/vise.

Another note to doing a switch barrel, it is recommended that you get an aftermarket recoil lug that is ground flat. The factory ones are rarely actually flat as they are a stamped piece.
The problem with that is when you bed the recoil lug it may not fit back in correctly when you do your switch barrel where one that is actually flat should.

[swheeler]

That is worrysome. Go gauges should be at SAAMI maximum cartridge, so if it closes on the go gauge any SAAMI compliant cartridge of that caliber will fit and headspace within acceptable tolerance. Sounds like your new brass wasn't sized before loading.

As far as loading a 110 gr bullet for the '06, I'll have to check on that as most 110 gr bullets in 30 caliber are plinking or varmint bullets and may not perform well on game.

That is correct

[DCM]

That is correct

OH really??

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=12555/GunTechdetail/Headspace-Gauges-And-How-To-Use-Them-Part-I

http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=24834

http://www.odcmp.org/0309/M1Headspace.asp

added:http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/products/gaugesnbushings/gauges.htm Note green=go=MINIMUM

I guess Brownells Forster and the CMP don't know what they are talking about either.

[swheeler]

That is worrysome. Go gauges should be at SAAMI maximum cartridge, so if it closes on the go gauge any SAAMI compliant cartridge of that caliber will fit and headspace within acceptable tolerance.

Sounds like your new brass wasn't sized before loading.

As far as loading a 110 gr bullet for the '06, I'll have to check on that as most 110 gr bullets in 30 caliber are plinking or varmint bullets and may not perform well on game.

Yes really.

[DCM]

Yes really.

Obviously you did not thoroughly read any of the above links.

Keep dangling the bait it takes a lot to fill my belly.

[swheeler]

DCM you are confusing CARTRIDGE and CHAMBER dimensions

[DCM]

No I am not both the cartridge and the chamber dimensions must fall between the minimum=go and the maximum= no go haedspace lengths to meet SAAMI specs.

[DCM]

The chamber dimensions need to be such that actual loaded cartridges fit in them.

If one sets the chamber to barely over SAAMI Min. ="GO" much of the factory ammo will not fit.

[MBTcustom]

I think your'e both saying the same thing but you're looking at it two different ways. The SAMMI spec for the gauges is bigger than the SAMMI spec for the cartridges. Its comparing apples to oranges.
The Go gauge is ground at the minimum SAMMI tolerance for the chamber, which should be only slightly above the SAMMI tolerance for the cartridge.
Do the two standards overlap? I confess I do not know, but I do know that if you want any factory ammo to dunk right in without a hitch, then you had better go about .002 deeper than the Go guage.
The beauty of the Savage barrel setup, is that after you bottom the barrel out on the gauge, when you torque down the locknut, it gives you that little extra gap on the gauge. The nut just pulls the barrel a couple thousandths away from the gauge, and voila! perfect headspace!
The only worry is that if for some reason (yeah I know, chance in a million) the threads gall, or have trash in them, or anything other than the headspace gauge stops the barrel from rotating, and you torque down the lock nut, you could actually have excess headspace. That is why it is a really good idea to either drop in the Not-GO gauge, or put two layers of scotch tape over the base of the Go gauge to make for darn sure you are in spec. If you are renting the gauges, then you get both and it costs you nothing to check with the Not Go gauge. If you ponied up the $$$ for your own headspace gauge, and saved money by only getting the Go gauge, (I have done this, I hang my head in shame) you can get by with the tape trick.
All I'm saying is that you need to check just to be sure, because on a Savage, you could have .002 over GO or .050 over go and it would feel exactly the same. So do yourself a favor and check.

[rtracy2001]

Goodsteel, Thanks!!

I did some checking and found the SAAMI website that has chamber and cartridge drawings, located here:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

For the 243 Winchester (Page 43), the MINIMUM chamber headspace dimension is 1.630 inches. The MAXIMUM cartridge headspace dimension is 1.634" so it appears that there is some overlap.

Based on this, a cartridge made to SAAMI max won't fit in a SAAMI minimum chamber.

I sent an email off to the webmaster to see if I could get some confirmation of my interpretation, but who knows if I will receive a response.

[MBTcustom]

Now that is a solid slice of good information and certainly confirms my suspicion. I am surprised that the cartridge spec overlaps the chamber spec by almost half of the allowance though. I have noticed that chambers with only .002 over Go are a bit snug sometimes, but I never understood why. Now I know.
Thanks for the research!

[Mooseman]

I think you should look at the numbers again on page 43 of the SAAMI file... Minimum headspace is 1.630 where maximum is 1.640 from the datum line. This equals 10 thousandths allowable.
When I set a new target or match type chamber I set it with a gauge at .000 to .001 headspace. If I am setting up up a hunting rifle, I set it looser at .003 -.004 maximum headspace. ( due to field conditions/ dust/ dirt/Temperature changes, etc.)
The SAAMI Cartridge dimension shown is 1.634 MINUS .007 so minimum Cartridge datum length is 1.627...this is what commercial cartridges must stay within to be in spec. with 1.634 as a maximum. This gives .003 to .004 plus or minus to work with in reality. Most Factory Cartridges will run on the Minimum side.

I am OLD school gunsmith and Tape is NEVER used because it compresses or tears and you cannot get a precise reading. I use a cut piece of feeler gauge the size i want and a wipe of grease to hold it on the bolt face and use a proper headspace gauge only. A tight headspace 0-1 is easier on brass for reloading where the brass will be loaded many times.

Rich

[JesterGrin_1]

I have to agree with Mooseman as in I also like Tight head space. Yes it does mean that the size of the brass is more critical. But to me that goes along with a Custom built Rifle. :) My .358 Winchester that was recently completed is a snug fit when closing the bolt but not too snug.

[waksupi]

The nice thing about handloading, you can adjust for any minor head space problems on most chamberings. Remove the spring from your bolt, and close it on an empty case. You should feel just slight drag as you lock down the bolt. It doesn't take a lot of trying to figure out just how much to size your brass.

[rtracy2001]

I understand tolerance, but the fact remains that a SAAMI minimum chamber will not accept a SAAMI maximum cartridge. It ends up being an interference fit. Don't know why, but that is what the numbers say.

[swheeler]

I understand tolerance, but the fact remains that a SAAMI minimum chamber will not accept a SAAMI maximum cartridge. It ends up being an interference fit. Don't know why, but that is what the numbers say.

I see that also, so I guess it is possible to get a rifle that just closes on a Go gauge that would not accept factory ammo. But I have never encountered such a rifle, infact just the opposite, I have a 308 that I set HS with a factory loaded Remington round, it will not close on a Go gauge, which is what I prefer. I also had a Remington sendaro 300 wim mag that would not close on my Go gauge, but it would accept ammo from all three of the major US manufacturers. As far as I know the ammunition manufacturers in US make ammo very close to SAAMI minimum dimension, which is not the same as minimum chamber dimension, it is actually less by 3-.004" dependant on cartridge. Another thing I notice in the SAAMI drawings is maximum chamber dimension is not NO GO headspace dimemsion, at least not according to any of my headspace gauges, but infact look to be field reject dimension.

[Mooseman]

The problem with headspacing to a brass cartridge is it is soft and will compress with the camming action of the bolt. This is the reason that Gauges are Hardened steel, they wont compress like springy brass. so you get a true reading when headspacing.
If a rifle is set to .003 to .004 Headspace it will close on a Saami Maximum length cartridge with a .000 to .001 interference fit but as stated, it would be unusual to find Factory ammo already at maximum spec. Notice Saami also includes a -.020 in the case diameter measurement.
I have never had an issue with new brass or ammo not fitting my close tolerance guns, it always fit.
If you have ever picked up range brass and you try to chamber it more often than not it will not chamber without resizing due to most commercial rifles not being close headspaced or worn rifles that let the brass fireform over maximum. You must FL resize them to fit because neck sizing will only work from brass out of the same rifle.
On a close fit rifle, one slight disadvantage is that cases will grow longer at the case neck faster so they will need to be trimmed sooner to keep them in proper length, which is not a problem for most benchrest/target loaders who keep cases trimmed to a uniform length. The brass cannot expand rearward so it grows forward, however the advantage is less chance of case head separation from multiple firings, so you get longer reloading life from your brass.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks to all on this thread on headspace and the use of go/no-go gauges. I have been in this shooting game a very long time but have never done any of this work. It is very interesting and makes me want to give some of it a try. However the expense of the tooling, vices, wrenches, etc makes it impractical for me. However I did enjoy the differing takes on the subject. Thanks again.

[rtracy2001]

I got a reply from the folks at SAAMI. While they did not answer the "why" question, they did confirm that the 243 "like most modern bottleneck cartidges" has a small interference fit in arms chambered to minimum dimensions.

[swheeler]

Does anyone know for sure, is the SAAMI maximum chamber dimension shown in the drawings the field reject gauge dimension? I do not know as I don't own any field gauges.

[MtGun44]

Set the headspace to work with the ammo you will be using. All else is irrelevant.

Bill

[rtracy2001]

Does anyone know for sure, is the SAAMI maximum chamber dimension shown in the drawings the field reject gauge dimension? I do not know as I don't own any field gauges.


One of the links DCM provided says this about the field gauge:


FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gage, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI’s specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gages are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

[Mooseman]

Maybe this link will explain it better...http://www.forsterproducts.com/store.asp?pid=24834

[geargnasher]

I just did my first one, without proper headspace gauges. I don't shoot commercial ammunition, and it's for me only, so I only care that it's headspaced to the specific sizing die that I wll be using. Two things I found on this particular gun, a small-shank 110 with 20 TPI: The slack taken up in the threads for 40 lbs of torque was .003", checked using a combination of .001" and .002" brass shim stock, and you can make your own headspace gauge out of a resized case filled with wheel weight alloy. I resized the case again after filling to make sure it didn't change, and it definitely made the case rock-solid. I could feel the difference when "bottoming" the barrel by hand against the filled case vs. empty.

I feel it worth mentioning to double-check the case head for flatness before using it for a gauge, sometimes the rims get peeled back a few thousandths by extractors or shellholders, or have burrs on them.

BTW, Goodsteel's 7mm-08 and .223 barrels are no longer for sale :smile:

Gear

[Lance Boyle]

Goodsteel, Thanks!!

I did some checking and found the SAAMI website that has chamber and cartridge drawings, located here:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf

For the 243 Winchester (Page 43), the MINIMUM chamber headspace dimension is 1.630 inches. The MAXIMUM cartridge headspace dimension is 1.634" so it appears that there is some overlap.

Based on this, a cartridge made to SAAMI max won't fit in a SAAMI minimum chamber.

I sent an email off to the webmaster to see if I could get some confirmation of my interpretation, but who knows if I will receive a response.



I do believe the numbers are smaller on factory ammo that the min and max for chambers. A new factory round is likely to be smaller than chamber min 1.630 by 0.000-0.004 thousandths. A headspace guage setup like Hornady's and a box of factory fresh ammo will bear that out. I use my Clymer headspace gages for reference when analyzing such things.

[rtracy2001]

I do believe the numbers are smaller on factory ammo that the min and max for chambers. A new factory round is likely to be smaller than chamber min 1.630 by 0.000-0.004 thousandths. A headspace guage setup like Hornady's and a box of factory fresh ammo will bear that out. I use my Clymer headspace gages for reference when analyzing such things.

I would fully expect most factory ammo to be less than max. It is fundamentally impossible to mass produce anything with exactly the same dimensions every time. There will always be variation. To reduce rejects, you set your nominal dimensions in the center of the tolerance band (in most cases anyway). That way if you overshoot or undershoot, you will still be within the acceptable range. There is a whole science dedicated to maximizing production and minimizing rejects by studying tolerance and adjusting the machinery as appropriate.