Poor boy mashed .44 Projos

[Sakdog]

So obviously, I am not the one to think of this (very non extravagant form of a swaged projo ). But I google searched this concept and I came across another forum that guided me along.

So far it works good, Still working on developing any use for it but I have fired about 100 of these thus far through my 44 mag and find it to be very simple to produce.

basically all it is,

Spent .40 S&W case (nothing special, not sized)
A 180 gn lee LSWC Tumble lube boolit.
A hammer
A punch (narrower than .400 diameter
Something with a chamfer ( I used a Lee .311 sizer die's lead in chamfer)

Step 1. place the inverted bullet into the mouth of the .40 case.
Step 2. mash it down until it bottoms out (hammer and punch)
Step 3 using your press (I only used the lee hand press for this op) press this bullet/brass assembly (using the standard shellholder) into the chamfer lead in on a lee .311 boolit sizer die. you will get a feel for how much pressure you need to apply to make the chamfer without crumbling the brass.
Step 4 load it
Step 5 shoot it.

Interestingly these come out weighing 240 grains (for me)

I find that most of the time with these I will run them through the .430 sizer only to get a projo that barely touches or doesn't touch at all. More mashing on step 2 would probably swell it enough to give you a good surface to size on/engage rifling better.

I have only fired these seated long, since this projectile is longer than any "regular" projectile. I found that I could seat these to a depth long enough to ensure that I wasn't encroaching on the inner case volume and short enough to fit my chamber in the Redhawk.


here's a picture of the equipment:

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/ad195/sakenaction/IMAG0349.jpg

[I'll Make Mine]

Question is, are they accurate? I'd expect you're not crushing all the voids out of the bottom of the jacket, even if you're casting the cores from pure lead -- unless you're using a pretty big hammer to seat the cores, which I'd expect to randomly mash the jackets out of round.

Maybe I'm wrong; if these shoot one ragged hole at 50 yards, you may be about to ruin the swaging die cottage industry...

[Sakdog]

Haven't had much chance yet to do any accuracy testing but so far at 25 yards they don't seem to be bad Yes there are definitely still voids at the base of this assembly. My "mashing" is only a light tap thus far to bottom it out. The taper does seem to hold the core in place decently

These funky projos do put some nice holes in paper (cookie cutter shark bullet)

Just something fun to play with..

[littlejack]

Sackdog:
There was a fella that posted his self made jacketed bullets, made w/ reloading dies some time back. I did pick up his idea and made some .41 bullets out of 40 S&W brass. I made a nose punch on my China made drill press. I also incorperate a 22-250 sizer die, and a 250-3000 sizer die. These dies make the truncated cone shape for the nose, and also round out the exposed lead nose profile with the homemade nose punch in one of those dies.
I start by annealing the cases. Then I trim to length. I use 148 grain .358 wc mould to make my cores. I seat the cores with a Lee push through punch on my RC press.
The last sizing is done with the Lee push through sizer.410. I then have a 220 grain TC bullet that shoots well in my handgun.
Now that I have gotten my lathe, (but not set up yet) I will be able to make more and better accesories for this project.
Good luck with your project.
Jack

[Sakdog]

Littlejack, Do you think you might be able to outline your process? It sounds interesting !

[Freightman]

Thoes should hit like a Dum-Dum if you can get the core to stay in place. Now how fast have you pushed them? are you doing 44 mag speed?

[SquirrelHollow]

Sakdog, the addition of a 7x57mm sizing die to your equipment, is all that's needed to properly seat the cores and put a more consistent nose profile on the bullets.
Here are a few links to discussions of my process with a 7x57 die I picked up for $5, and the end result:
My .44s from .40 S&W (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144113&highlight=.40+S%26W)
.40 S&W cases for .444 Bullets (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/85261-frankenmausers-40-s-w-444-reloads.html)
Something new to play with (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478563)


My bullets....
Are just as accurate as any bulk bullet, when not weight-sorted.
Are just as accurate as Hornady XTPs and Interlocks, when properly weight-sorted.
Run higher velocities than comparable copper-jacketed bullets.
Have been pushed to beyond 2,500 fps in .444 Marlin, and could go further if I had the case capacity.
Cut beautiful holes in paper.
Expand very reliably.
Retain more weight (in test media or game) when not bonded. (Probably due to the annealed jacket for bonded bullets.)
And, have been successfully tested on Elk (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478563&page=3). :guntootsmiley:

I use them in both .44 Mag and .444 Marlin.


The drawbacks:
My 7x57 sizing die is starting to show minor wear from being used as a swaging die (600-800 bullets).
My bottom punch / core seating punch from a Lee bullet sizer is getting rounded-over from having such a tight fit in expanded .40 S&W cases. I'll have to replace it after another 200-300 bullets.
In .444 Marlin, the 7x57 shoulder isn't an ideal nose profile. These bullets have to be seated fairly deeply, to keep them off the lands. (.444 Marlin has an extremely short throat. Mine is only 0.048".)
And, in .44 Mag and .444 Marlin, the nose profile gives these bullets the ballistic coefficient of a brick.

[Sakdog]

Very Nice perhaps it was your post in the "other forum" that I read. I might have to put the 7x57 die on my wishlist. I am not too disappointed with the performance thus far.

At work there is a component that has a nice conical countersink that tapers from .625 to .098 at 60 degrees included and the cone wall is finished to 16 microinches. The part is fabricated from 440 stainless and is 1.6 inches overall I think I might be able to req. one and try using it in a setup as my die for forming the shoulder. I might not go there because the results you got with a proper threaded die look good enough to me.

Another thing I was thinking of is not inverting the lee swc bullet. The end result of some experiments with that though have yielded something that looks like the jet intake on an SR-71 blackbird and the core isn't quite as tight as id like. I kind of want to load a few up to see if they whistle through the air.

I've left mine loaded very long COAL wise and will need to bring that down while bringing the charge up all the while reading for pressure. Ive only ran 2 batches of loads with this both were fueled by ww231 at 8 and 10 grains respectively. Being chronoless the subjective observation was that they felt about the same. I need to get some slower powder to take advantage of the 7.5 inches of runway available.

Another cool thing afforded to me where I work is an UNLIMITED supply of free gel cold packs so I want to build some ballistic boxes and see what kind of expansion I get using that media. So far pulling them out of dirt they are about half and half; separated and non separated from the core.

Still lots of work to play with on this but its definitely a lot of fun. Squirrel what kind of COALs are you running and about what is the OAL of your bullets?

My cookiecutters are running .832 for the bullet and COAL of a very conservative 1.725 which works ok in the 'hawk. I have room to bring it down for sure though.

[SquirrelHollow]

For my 275 gr "protected points" and a few similar weights, I trim the .40 S&W cases to .810".
Depending on what type of nose profile I put on them, finished length is .800" to about .815".
The jacket OAL 'shrinks' when expanded to .430" with a Lyman 'M' die, and it shrinks again when swaged to .434". The OAL 'grows' when the nose is formed for protected points or soft points; but 'shrinks' when formed for HPs. Some of my 255-265 gr HPs are as short as .785", after starting with .810" jackets.


I don't know what my exact COAL is in .44 Mag (and can't check right now), but I'm guessing it's right around 1.560". I can safely run them as long as 1.690" in my Super Blackhawk, but the current COAL seemed like a good compromise.

In .444 Marlin, I'm about 0.010" off the lands at 2.530" COAL.


I've tried a few different cores, alloys, and seating methods; but the pure lead 401-175-TCs and 410-195-SWCs, inverted in the case, have proven to be the best choice. (At least with my equipment.)
Now that I'm doing this with my Rock Chucker (instead of the Redding T-7), I might be able to use some 50-50 Isotope Core / Pure Lead alloy for a slightly harder core. But, I don't know that it would be needed for anything other than bonded bullets, since the softer annealed jackets have as many drawbacks as benefits.

[Sakdog]

Squirrel thank you for the insight and dims. This is good information, Do you mind divulging the make of the 7x57 sizer die? Do you think just any will do?

[SquirrelHollow]

I can't think of any standard full-length 7x57 sizing dies that wouldn't work (no collet dies, X-dies, etc, of course).

I'm using a Bair Cub die that came in a die set I picked up for $5. (An affiliate of Hornady/Pacific during the '60s, that spun off, but Hornady's current dies evolved from Bair's basic design.)

I've debated on trying the seating die, but it isn't finished internally quite as well as the sizing die. So, it may not work as well.

[SquirrelHollow]

Also keep in mind, if you start looking for a cheap die, that 7x57 isn't the only thing that will work.
Other options include pretty much anything from the Mauser-based family of cartridges, and a few newer players: (with nominal shoulder diameter)
5.6x57mm RWS (.431)
22 PPC (.431)
6mm PPC (.431)
22-6mm (.429)
6mm Remington (.429)
.240 Weatherby (.432 - die needs to be cut down, if using a Lee bottom punch)
.257 Roberts (.429)
6.5x52mm Carcano (.431)
6.5x54mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer (.428)
6.5x55mm Swedish (.435)
7.65x53mm Belgian Mauser (.429)
7.7x58mm Japanese (.429)
8x57mm Mauser (.431)

In my experience, anything with the shoulder more than 0.150" farther forward than 7x57/8x57 Mauser will need the die to be cut down, or a longer bottom punch will be needed.

[Lloyd Smale]

went back and read your article. Ive got one question. How do you bond the cores to the case?
Sakdog, the addition of a 7x57mm sizing die to your equipment, is all that's needed to properly seat the cores and put a more consistent nose profile on the bullets.
Here are a few links to discussions of my process with a 7x57 die I picked up for $5, and the end result:
My .44s from .40 S&W (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144113&highlight=.40+S%26W)
.40 S&W cases for .444 Bullets (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/85261-frankenmausers-40-s-w-444-reloads.html)
Something new to play with (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478563)


My bullets....
Are just as accurate as any bulk bullet, when not weight-sorted.
Are just as accurate as Hornady XTPs and Interlocks, when properly weight-sorted.
Run higher velocities than comparable copper-jacketed bullets.
Have been pushed to beyond 2,500 fps in .444 Marlin, and could go further if I had the case capacity.
Cut beautiful holes in paper.
Expand very reliably.
Retain more weight (in test media or game) when not bonded. (Probably due to the annealed jacket for bonded bullets.)
And, have been successfully tested on Elk (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478563&page=3). :guntootsmiley:

I use them in both .44 Mag and .444 Marlin.


The drawbacks:
My 7x57 sizing die is starting to show minor wear from being used as a swaging die (600-800 bullets).
My bottom punch / core seating punch from a Lee bullet sizer is getting rounded-over from having such a tight fit in expanded .40 S&W cases. I'll have to replace it after another 200-300 bullets.
In .444 Marlin, the 7x57 shoulder isn't an ideal nose profile. These bullets have to be seated fairly deeply, to keep them off the lands. (.444 Marlin has an extremely short throat. Mine is only 0.048".)
And, in .44 Mag and .444 Marlin, the nose profile gives these bullets the ballistic coefficient of a brick.

[Lloyd Smale]

ok i made an attempt at this and dont know if im missing something or not. I took a 40 case and tapped in a 180 lee rf bullet and then ran it up into a 250 sav die. I didnt have a 757 but the 250 seemed to work well and there wasnt hardly any reistance till it go far enough up to have to bump over to form the crimp. bullet looked good after a ajusted the die to get enough crimp on the nose but after i measured them and there only .426 in diameter. How did you get them to 430?

[SquirrelHollow]

To keep from dragging Sakdog's thread off course, I'll dig up my old thread here, and post my replies there:
.44 Bullets from .40 S&W (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144113)

But, one quick answer:
.250 Savage's body diameter is too small (0.418" at the shoulder). I don't know that you'd be able to get any usable bullets out of the die.

[Sakdog]

No worries if we put a fork in the road of my OP. Ill have to check out your other thread too because I am interested in the answer