.22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet?

[terryt]

Hi All:

Lately I have been thinking about getting a .22 Hornet.

The last time I had one was back in 1970. At that time most of the magazine writer's said if you had a .22 Hornet it would shoot better and go faster if you made it into a
.22 K- Hornet.

Any experience with either one would be very must appreciated.

Can the Ruger 77 in .22 Hornet be rechambered to .22 K-Hornet?

Thanks,

Terryt

[rexherring]

I've shot my brothers 22K and it's a real tack driver. I think it's a Savage that was reamed out. Any of them should be able to be re chambered for it.

[stubshaft]

If you do a search you'll find a multitude of posts regarding both cartridges.

Virtually any Hornet can be made into a K-Hornet. The advantage of the K-Hornet is slightly longer case life. The disadvantage is that it takes more powder to equal the velocity of the parent cartridge (all other things considered equal).

Either one can be frustrating to work with, but when you find a load that works they are a joy to shoot. Low recoil, cheap, accurate and FUN!

You can't really go wrong with either one.

...and the K-hornet will go a little faster.

[Wayne S]

In your selection of rifles, be sure to check the twist , most Hornet rifles have a 1-16 twist and were intended for the 40-45 J-bullets.

[uscra112]

Have experience with both. The K Hornet doesn't add much if anything to the accuracy or velocity, but the brass lasts a lot longer, especially if you are careful to neck-size only. In my Contender, it went from 3 loadings per case to "I dunno, I haven't worn one out yet." My pet load using the 35 grain j-wart continued to work perfectly after I "K'd" the chamber.

[JeffinNZ]

I'd go K for brass longevity as eluded to by 'uscra112' above. Modern powders like Lil Gun really make the Hornet sing. That and the new polymer tip fly weight factory bullets.

Can I suggest you avoid the Ruger Hornet? I have shot one and it patterned. Have read lots of other bad press about them also. CZ make good Hornets. I had a BRNO years ago that shot MOA out of the box with little load development.

[uscra112]

Wasn't going to give away the secret, but Jeff did it for me. Lil'Gun is magic in the Hornet.

[32ideal]

I also have had the standard and K versions of the Hornet in many different rifles, first was from the 60's a new break open Savage M219 that I used the old hammer the primer in Lee Loader for making reloads, to the new Ruger Stainless version that I smartly sold before I devalued it by making it a K-Hornet, have been looking at the new 22 Hornet Savage with thoughts of turning it into a K version, won't happen now since I'm officially a left hand shooter now because of damaged vision in my right eye.
My one and only now is a Winchester Low Wall in 22 K-Hornet it loves the Lil-Gun and about a 3/10gr reduction from max load with the 40gr V-Max seated way out, it still chrono's over 3000fps out of the LW 26" barrel and cuts one ragged hole at 100yds when there is no wind using a 6x scope.
I much prefer the K-Hornet as many others have stated because of case life, my only problem ever was when a buddy gave me a bunch of many times fired Remington Nickel plated Hornet brass, about 1 in 15 or 20 cases would split at the shoulder when fire formed to the K version.
Whichever version you pick it is an accurate, cheap and fun to load cartridge, if you have a choice get a faster twist barrel than the normal 1:16 my LW has a 1:14 and shoots the heavier cast bullets very well.
32ideal

[bobthenailer]

After owening 2 Ruger hornet rifles which i had problems with and traded after several attemps by the factory to repair for headspace on one & very poor accuracy with the other I would stay away from Ruger. I also have a contender in 22 hornet with a 10"& 14" barrels . if i had to do it all over again i would get the K Hornet chambering , it headspaces on the sholder instead of the rim of the 22 hornet which varies with lots & brands of brass .
So the main advantage is alot longer case life and correct & controlable headspace + a little more velocity . Lil gun is the magic powder for the 22 hornet , excellent accuracy , higher velocity
with lower pressures it also does the same in the 357 mag. no advantage in the 44 mag and only a little less pressure in the 454 Casull

[robroy]

My Ruger must be the odd one. It's a hornet (though I've thought about re chambering). With no special effort other than partial full length resizing it likes 55 grain hornadys and will put them into an inch at 100 yds. 225462 Lyman sized and checked with 2 THIN coats of mule snot probably twice that size group. Both using h4198 and small pistol magnum primers.

[rexherring]

I did have an older H&R single shot Hornet that was a tack driver out to 100+ yds and was my main coyote gun (one small hole and no exit) until a friend talked me out of it. That would be a cheaper way to get a K-Hornet made.

[kenyerian]

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,231528.0.html Gray Bread Forum's have reamers to rent . Looks and sounds easy to do but I haven't tried it yet.

[daniel lawecki]

I have 22k hornet barrel for my tc pistol. I fire formed using 9.0 grs of 296 never lost a case. I shoot 45gr Hornady bullet 11.5 grs of H110 will ring out 3/8 inch group at 50yrds. I shot 3/4 inch groups at 100yrds with this same load. My brass has about 10 reloads. I push this gun to the point I flatten the primers it will top out when pushed to max at about 2950fps sometimes to over 3000 fps out of 14 inch barrel. Enjoy this little HOT ROD.

[skeettx]

I have a Ruger #3 Hornet, SWEET
if I want more speed, I go to my Martini Cadet in 218 Bee
and then the 222, 223, 222 Mag, 22-250, and then the Swift

Still looking for a nice inexpensive Win 225

Get the standard Hornet
Mike

[longbow]

I don't have a Hornet but always wanted one, maybe one day.

I do have to ask though ~ why does K Hornet brass last longer than regular Hornet brass if regular Hornet brass is only neck sized?

I can understand the brass stretching if you full length size and headspace on the rim but if only neck sized why wouldn't brass last longer?

I know the brass is long a tapered with slopey shoulder but once it is fire formed to the chamber then neck sized only I would have figured stretch would be minimized. No?

Longbow

[TCTex]

I am shooting a 15in Hornet and a 14in K-Hornet. I have had great luck with the Bator mold available from Midesouthshooters. One barrel likes SR4759 and the other likes Green Dot.


Both will shoot MOA at 100. So, do you want to fireform would be my question.


Duane

[terryt]

Thank you all for your help.

Terryt

[robroy]

Long bow: When I resize my cases I run the die down so that the 1/8" forward of the shoulder doesn't get sized. I'm on 4 loadings. I'll let you know when I need to change brass or when I anneal.

[singleshot]

Hi All:

Lately I have been thinking about getting a .22 Hornet.

The last time I had one was back in 1970. At that time most of the magazine writer's said if you had a .22 Hornet it would shoot better and go faster if you made it into a
.22 K- Hornet.

Any experience with either one would be very must appreciated.

Can the Ruger 77 in .22 Hornet be rechambered to .22 K-Hornet?

Thanks,

Terryt

This has more to do with the action and less with the brass. One thing is for sure, brass will last longer with a K-Hornet.

[longbow]

robroy:

I neck size .303 British which is notorious for stretching brass and I don't seem to be having any significant stretch at all now.

In the case of the Lee Enfield, the chambers tend to be really large so full length sizing results in blowing the should forward about 1/16" and is really hard on brass.

I would have thought a Hornet being a sporting cartridge would have fairly tight chambers so wouldn't be too bad even though it is a slopey shouldered case. Also, I would figure that neck sizing only would pretty much stop any stretch as it is not a particularly high intensity round.

Nothing against the K Hornet, I am just curious.

Yes, I would be interested to find out how long neck sized brass life in regular Hornet compares to brass life in K Hornet.

Longbow

[leadman]

The shoulder is long and sloping on the Hornet. The K-Hornet is like an Ackley Improved cartridge with an abrupt shoulder. The brass can't flow forward much at all. Kilbourn actually came up with the K before Ackley make his.
I had a hornet and still have a K-Hornet. More speed, better accuracy, longer brass life with the K.

The brass for the Hornet is very thin, more like a 32-20 than a cartridge like the Enfield.

[HamGunner]

I have the Ruger 77/22 Hornet reamed to K-Hornet. With the 45gr. Hornady HPBEE bullet w/cannelure and light crimp, it will do 3/4" at 100 yds. with a good hot load of Lil'Gun and that load chronographs 3,050 fps. in my 22" thin barrel. Much lower pressure compared to warm accurate loads of 2400 and AA 1680 and gives more velocity than both with much longer lived primer pockets. The brass is thin and fragil. I just back the load off about a grain to grain and 1/2 and use the same bullet for fire forming. It is very accurate in the Hornet fire forming load also. I use Rem 6 1/2 primers.

Using that rifle for K-Hornet, the magazines will need a bit of filing out to the shoulder area so that it will work through the magazine as the magazine is tapered like the tapered Hornet case. Just use a small jewelers file and a bit of elbow grease and take a bit of metal off at the shoulder area till they feed well.

The K-Hornet requires much less trimming than the straight Hornet and the brass will certainly last longer as well.

[Reverend Al]

Years ago I had a custom baby Martini in .22 K-Hornet that was truly a little sweetheart. It was built on a .22 LR barrel and was absolutely deadly with Speer .223 diameter 40 and 45 grain "J word" bullets. Shot a ton of gophers out in Alberta with it and it was great to about 200 yards and those little bullets are explosive even at moderate velocities! Again, as has been said here before the improved "K" version gives MUCH longer case life than the standard Hornet ...

[altheating]

I have three Hornets. I had all three re-chambered by CPC to K hornet. All three were done with the same reamer and I can interchange rounds from to the other with no problem. All three love 11gr of 4227 and the BRP 226-47 boolit with wolf SP primers. Using the Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die. The best shooter of all is the Browning Micro A Bolt, next is the Ruger and last is the Rem 799. But even third the Remington is a dam good shooter. Last week Screwbolts and I were shooting pennies stuck in a snow bank at 40-50 yards off hand with the Browning. None of them shot worth a $#!* before being K'd.

[Newtire]

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,231528.0.html Gray Bread Forum's have reamers to rent . Looks and sounds easy to do but I haven't tried it yet.I just finished up using the hand reamer rented from Graybeard and was pretty straightforward. Reamer is a Clymers (one I received) with a pilot. I used a little bore paste on a cotton Dremel "plug" turned in a drill motor afterwards to smooth out the chamber. It really makes those cases fireform well from factory new ppu and Winchester cases. Used an 8-point socket and a 1/4" drive ratchet to turn the reamer with and Craftsman cutting tool oil provided by one of our shooting group. Used the master case provided and cleaned and checked progress until tool just barely entered the rimmed area of the chamber and the case just went flush. Beginner's luck! 30 minutes not counting polishing.

[gnoahhh]

I shot aM1922M2 Springfield altered to centerfire and chambered for the K-Hornet for years, even though it had a nasty habit of breaking firing pins. Brass did last seemingly forever but I didn't get materially more velocity than a standard Hornet. Nowadays I play with a couple of single shot Hornets and have no desire to open any of them up to the K chamber. The reason being that cast bullets make up 98% of what I shoot through them (a wonderful avenue for experimentation) and for that the standard chamber suits me fine, and brass lasts for dozens of reloads. If I want to zap a critter with a high velocity jacketed .22 bullet I reach for the .22 Maximum Lovell or .223.

A buddy does have a dandy Model 70 Winchester .22 Hornet that has been altered to K-Hornet that shoots bug hole 10 shot groups that I have been wheedling him for. Perhaps one day I'll wear him down.

God, I love Hornet discussions, even old ones dug up and dusted off!

[Clay M]

I agree with what has been said. Lil Gun is the magic potion for the Hornets.. Good luck on finding any..

[telebasher]

LiL Gun is the powder to use with j-word bullets but cast boolits have a different window for pressure/velocity/alloy. After much shooting and testing, AA1680 is my go to powder with cast boolits and LiL Gun still gets the nod with jacketed in my guns. YMMV. BTW small pistol primers for both powders.

[.22-10-45]

For years I have heard the old saw of longer case like in the K. I think it has more to do with the particular rifle action and closeness of chambering. Back in the mid 70's, I was working with an Anschutz Hornet. This had rear locking bolt..really a centerfire version of their rimfire. I was going thru boxfulls of brass due to seperations. Years later, I had Ed Shillen ( he did the work himself in spare time) barrel & chamber a custom original panneled action Sharps Borchardt in .22 Hornet. It's been over 15 years since I first pressed a primer in that same RWS brass..still going strong. I asked Ed to chamber close and tight like the best bench-rest match chamber.

[kopperl]

Yes the 77 can be done. Had one that is a shooter. If you reload K is the only way to go. The difference in case life alone makes it worth while.

[.30-06 fan]

i would probably stick with 22 hornet and neck re-size for case longevity.

[303Guy]

As you folks have probably deduced, I tend to go off on weird and strange side paths. I load my hornet up to outperform the k-hornet. The k-hornet cannot be loaded as high as the standard hornet as counter intuitive as that sounds. The k-hornet has too much capacity for that type of loading. The secret lies in the use of Lil'Gun and heavy bullets. For cast, well I guess the k-hornet trumps but I don't know for sure. Oh yes, I get indefinite case life with my loading technique. Mine head spaces on the case mouth! Yup, I do things differently. :mrgreen:

Having said that I would lean toward the k-hornet - much easier to load than my method and head spacing on a shoulder is way better than on the mouth. That takes not sizing the neck which leaves the problem of holding a bullet/boolit when there is actually a clearance fit (but I found a way).

[M-Tecs]

In my 22 Hornets I can get 12.7 to 13 grains of Lil'Gun in my cases. 90% are Winchester. With my K-Hornet I can get 3/4 of grain more with a slight increase (100 to 150 fps) in velocity in the K-Hornet. Not sure what you are referring to when you state the K-Hornet has too much capacity for that type of loading. I am loading 40, 45, and 50 grain jacketed. The 40 grain V-Max are working the best for me on prairie dogs.

[gnoahhh]

LiL Gun is the powder to use with j-word bullets but cast boolits have a different window for pressure/velocity/alloy. After much shooting and testing, AA1680 is my go to powder with cast boolits and LiL Gun still gets the nod with jacketed in my guns. YMMV. BTW small pistol primers for both powders.

What loads of AA1680 are you using? I picked up a pound of it but haven't tried any yet, not knowing what to shoot for with reduced velocity cast bullet loads.

[telebasher]

Start at 11 grains and work up. Have not run into pressure problems but look for your accuracy window. My guns are 12 and 14 twist and 11.5 to 12 grains work for me. Can't remember specific chrono results but these loads will do anything I ask of a Hornet, especially with my hollowpoints.

[gunwonk]

The shoulder is long and sloping on the Hornet. The K-Hornet is like an Ackley Improved cartridge with an abrupt shoulder. The brass can't flow forward much at all.

I'm using an RCBS X-die on my Euro-Hornet. No more trimming.

It's too soon to tell for sure, but I also suspect that when my brass flows forward, the X-die pushes it back. :-)

[303Guy]

In my 22 Hornets I can get 12.7 to 13 grains of Lil'Gun in my cases. 90% are Winchester. With my K-Hornet I can get 3/4 of grain more with a slight increase (100 to 150 fps) in velocity in the K-Hornet. Not sure what you are referring to when you state the K-Hornet has too much capacity for that type of loading. I am loading 40, 45, and 50 grain jacketed. The 40 grain V-Max are working the best for me on prairie dogs.The K-Hornet capacity and possibly the case shape makes it unsuitable for Lil'Gun with heavier bullets. It's not even listed for a 55gr bullet. Less powder produces higher pressure in the K. I get 2740fps with 55gr bullets but my pressures are up there near the limits of the case. The K Hornet will overpressure with my loads but for other powders, the K-Hornet trumps. I loaded and shot 60gr Hornady spire points with great accuracy, something I seriously doubt can be done in a 16 twist K-Hornet (my hornet is 16 twist).

[303Guy]

I was working with an Anschutz Hornet. This had rear locking bolt..really a centerfire version of their rimfire. Mine is an Anschutz Hornet but is the Hornet version of the Anschutz 222 Remington.

[M-Tecs]

303Guy

Thanks. Makes sense now. I have a CZ 527 in a 16 twist that is used mainly for prairie dogs. I am looking for a very explosive bullet that will not ricochet. The 40's shoot outstanding for me. I have some of the Hornady 224 Hornet bullets but they are not as accurate or explosive as the 40's. When they are gone I won't purchase anymore. Played with a couple of different 50's but accuracy was just average in my rifle. What do you hunt with the 60's? Do you have it suppressed?

[1Shirt]

Have a #3 Ruger in K Hornet, and a Sav M40 (single shot bolt) in Hornet. Keep thinking about having the Sav K'd. Both shoot cast well with blts under 45 grain, and since 33 & 35 gr. jacketed came out, that is all I shoot in both of them. No problem getting 3000 and above with the little ones, and they are deadly on p-dogs out to 200 yds w/either Lil Gun or H110.
1Shirt!

[gnoahhh]

Start at 11 grains and work up. Have not run into pressure problems but look for your accuracy window. My guns are 12 and 14 twist and 11.5 to 12 grains work for me. Can't remember specific chrono results but these loads will do anything I ask of a Hornet, especially with my hollowpoints.

Thank you very much, but I'm looking to go in the opposite direction, with cast bullets. My favorite loads utilize 3½ grains Unique, 6 grains 2400 and the like, and I'm looking for alternative similar loads using AA1680.

[ballistim]

Have a #3 Ruger in K Hornet, and a Sav M40 (single shot bolt) in Hornet. Keep thinking about having the Sav K'd. Both shoot cast well with blts under 45 grain, and since 33 & 35 gr. jacketed came out, that is all I shoot in both of them. No problem getting 3000 and above with the little ones, and they are deadly on p-dogs out to 200 yds w/either Lil Gun or H110.
1Shirt!

I plan to have either a #3 or a #1 in either K or Hornet by the time I retire, still have 8 to 10 years to go, plenty of time to find one. Sunny calm days in the backyard with a Hornet has often gone through my mind when I envision how I'd like to spend time in retirement. [emoji3] I have a Contender bbl in .22 Hornet and it's been great with both Lil Gun & WC-680.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/10/98b31e4310cf554574acbd659ab6b93c.jpg

[.22-10-45]

Hello, gnoahhh. My go to powder for the Hornet has always been H4227 around 7.0grs. with a 52gr. Leeth copy of the old Ideal 22636 in both plain base & G.C. Several years back, I got on a cleanliness kick..wanted a powder with little or no fouling. Alliant had just brought out their American Select, advertized as ultra-clean burning. No data even from Alliant..so working up VERY slow and careful I think I was around 3grs or so. But even in that small case, those tiny charges seemed to get lost. The stuff was very sensitive..a tenth or so over and youd get patterns..extreemly quiet with recoil like a .22 rimfire..and it was extreemly clean. Lately I have found Vihtavouri N110 to give slightly better accuracy than H4227...but only with gas checked bullets..p.b. doesn't seem to do so well..I plan on exploring this combination some more to find out why. I have loaded my Hornet down with the early Lyman 225415 (49grs.) so that I could see the bullet dropping down onto target at 100yds. Sound and recoil like a .22 L.R...and very accurate. As far as accuracy is concerned, the greatest improvement I found was when I made up a tapered sizing die that fits a std. lubesizer. The taper matches chamber leade. In use, a bullet is placed nose first in die & lubesizer adjustment screw is used to adjust amount of taper on 1st. band. I seat bullets so as breech block closes, 1st. band is fully engraved by rifling. I'm getting groups like above with cast at 100yds. Best of luck!

[gnoahhh]

Thanks! I started seriously experimenting with cast bullets in the Hornet a couple years ago and have worked out a bunch of combos that satisfy me a lot, but I'm always keen to hear how other guys approach it. Those are a couple powders I never thought of trying.

A rifle that has given great satisfaction is a pre-war German stalking rifle in 5.6x35R, with a fast twist (1-9) and a bore that tapers from .227 down to .225. Once I sussed out what works in that strange little gun it became a beloved woods companion. I'm gearing up to build another custom single shot on a small Martini action with a fast-ish twist and absolutely minimum match chamber (so as to hopefully allow load work up at the shooting bench without the need to resize brass). Preference would be a LoWall or somesuch so as to allow easier breech seating too with plain base properly tapered bullets, but perhaps later...

[303Guy]

What do you hunt with the 60's? Do you have it suppressed?I shot hares with it. I had been planing to hunt goats with it but figured that since fifty grain Sierra's killed them just fine, I would go with the much cheaper 55gr bullets available. They are also a bit faster for a flatter trajectory. The amazing thing for me was that the 16 twist would stabilize them. Initially I cut off the exposed tips to shorten them.

I was confident enough with that hornet that I would have taken a small deer with it but hornets are now banned for hunting so I can't even shoot goats with it. I'm thinking of going back to the 50gr Sierra's if they will shoot accurately enough. I'm wanting more speed than I can get with 55grs. If I can get my RCBS 55 FN mold to cast decent I want to shoot cast in it, mainly for target. That poor little hornet has been neglected for several years now.

[michaelcj]

Have not tried CB in my hornet, 1951 Winchester 43 [so rear lugs]. I load 12.8gr Lilgun in Winchester cases with small pistol primer behind a Sierra 45gr.. Half to three quarter groups all day long at 100, Inch and a half at 300. Using the Lee Collet Die for neck sizing my brass is showing no issues. Can't see any reason at all to re-chamber this old gun or go to the trouble of dies and fire forming.
I'll bet the K is a nice round… just "diminishing returns" for cost and effort.
Mike

[303Guy]

I load 12.8gr Lilgun in Winchester cases with small pistol primer behind a Sierra 45gr.. Half to three quarter groups all day long at 100, Inch and a half at 300.Wow! That's what I like to hear. Mine has a rust damaged bore and an oversize and rough chamber. It does not copper foul since I lube my bullets - the bullet is seated in lube which holds it true. What kind of velocity can one get with faster powders that don't depend on neck tension and light bullets? I know that Lil'Gun will drive a 40gr bullet to well over 3000 fps but that needs neck tension, I think. Mind you, by the time sufficient Lil'Gun has been stuffed in the powder itself acts as a wad (it takes two compressions of the powder - fill to case mouth, compress then add some more and compress again!)

My Anschütz is a rear locking action. It's slicker than an Lee Enfield! I now wish it was the 222 model so I could hunt with it.

[dtraub215]

Has anyone on here ever loaded the Hornet or K- Hornet for sub-sonic velocities with any bullet? But I am particularly interested in heavy, high BC match bullets. Would they be too long even with a custom fast twist barrel. I am trying to put together a mid-range, 200-500 yard suppressed, highly accurate but economical to shoot rifle. I really love to arc bullets in to the target quietly.

Any insight on subsonic loads would be very much appreciated. I have been wondering about the .221 Fireball but don't know if case capacity is too high. A 6mm whisper is another thought. Thank you in advance.

[pertnear]

Nothing "sub-sonic" is going to consistently & accurately get you into 200-500 yd shooting.

The .22 Hornet is a wonderful cartridge & is one of the smallest reloadable cartridges. In today's world of expensive .22LR it has found new life! Converting this mighty-mite from regular to "K" will makes it a bit more mighty. If you like to tinker & enjoy wildcats - GO FOR IT! A simple conversion, but in reality, it is like putting elevator shoes on a midget!

JIMHO...:)

BTW: For quiet fun, I use to size & shoot pellets out of mine using just the primer.

[dtraub215]

How far do you think I could accurately shoot a subsonic .22/6mm/.308? On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I want something that doesn't get blown so much by the wind and holds sub-MOA elevation. So then I wouldn't have to wait for calm air to shoot quietly and accurately. I would like to think I could achieve 200 yard accuracy fairly easily.

Do you know if the heavy/long 75-90 grain bullets fit in the hornet case with enough room for a subsonic charge, or would a .221 fireball be better?

Thanks for the insight.

[1Shirt]

Have a Sav #40 Hornet, and a #3 Ruger in K-hornet. As said above, there is longer case life with a K. Am thinking of turning the Sav into a K for that reason, although, it shoots very well as a standard. 2400 with cast 45 gr and under. LilGun and or H110 with cast 45 and under. My longest kill with the K on pdogs was just a smidge over 225 yd, on a bright day with absolutely no wind, with 35 gr. Hor V-max. over 12 gr of H-110.
1Shirt

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't have a Hornet but always wanted one, maybe one day.

I do have to ask though ~ why does K Hornet brass last longer than regular Hornet brass if regular Hornet brass is only neck sized?

I can understand the brass stretching if you full length size and headspace on the rim but if only neck sized why wouldn't brass last longer?

I know the brass is long a tapered with slopey shoulder but once it is fire formed to the chamber then neck sized only I would have figured stretch would be minimized. No?

Longbow

The inside of the case head is forced backwards by the gas pressure. Now imagine a very tapered case like the Horner. There is actually forward force on that tapered surface, as well as outward expansion. The tendency is for the case wall to creep in the opposite direction from the head, and separation will soon occur at the very closely defined spot where it is being pulled both ways.

Now with most improved cases (the .300 Ackley Improved is the one I sectioned and measured), the widest spot inside the case body is the junction of shoulder and body. All of that body length is being stretched in the same direction, and only to the rather small limit headspace allows. Separation is a lot less likely.

I think getting quite the improvement in case life described on Page 1 is exceptional, and this depends a lot on other variables, such as the chamber texture, precise size etc. But there is no doubt that there is some, and this is the biggest advantage of the K-Hornet. If some brass, as also mentioned, prevents fireforming a commercial load from ordinary to K, I think that is also exceptional, and how often do we need to do that?

It can be argued that the advantages of the K-Hornet aren't great. But it is harder to argue that it has disadvantages.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

How far do you think I could accurately shoot a subsonic .22/6mm/.308? On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I want something that doesn't get blown so much by the wind and holds sub-MOA elevation. So then I wouldn't have to wait for calm air to shoot quietly and accurately. I would like to think I could achieve 200 yard accuracy fairly easily.

Do you know if the heavy/long 75-90 grain bullets fit in the hornet case with enough room for a subsonic charge, or would a .221 fireball be better?

Thanks for the insight.

A rifle couild be built to do this. But I don't believe any commercially available Hornet rifle has a rifling twist fast enough to stabilize bullets much over 45gr. I wouldn't like to count on 50gr. There is also the point that purpose-built Hornet bullets were generally .223 in. I doubt if the extra thou will make much difference, and it seems even less likely that sizing .224 down that much will. But it is all some extra trouble in search of really good accuracy.

[dtraub215]

A fast twist barrel would be the first modification to the rifle. I am thinking 1in6 or less. It is going to be a custom build, hopefully on a Browning A-bolt II .22 Hornet. I just ordered Quickload, hopefully that will help me get an idea of what is possible for subsonic loads of all calibers in question. Thank you for your help. I still dont know if the Hornet will even hold an 80-90 grain bullet?

[gnoahhh]

It'll hold such a long bullet- but I would consider having the throat lengthened to accommodate it. (But then it would be crummy throat for "regular" bullet use.) It is an interesting concept. Have you applied the Greenhill Formula to determine the twist rate for a 90gr. subsonic cast lead .22 bullet?

[M-Tecs]

On a calm day I can hit a 2" gong at 200 yards repeatedly with subsonic .22LR. I.

That is some impressive shooting.

221 Fireball brass will handle the pressure better.

Some discussion here http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-151619.html

I would do the 300 Whisper/blackout for subsonic range http://www.300whisper.com/subsonic.html

6mm or 6.5 mmWhisper would be an option. http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/sskwhisper.html

[303Guy]

Actually, the 1 in 16 twist hornet will stabilize a 60gr Hornady spire point. Even 55gr Nosler semi boat tails. As for case life, I get indefinite case life loading 13.7gr Lil'Gun under a 55gr spitzer. I wouldn't suggest loading that high though. I lube the cases - that's the trick. Slightly slippery is what's needed using STP Smoke Stopper. The amount of lube would be about what I would use for case sizing. That's to prevent case wall to chamber grip. Too much lube makes dents in the case and besides, one doesn't want atomized oil mixing with the burning powder - who knows what it will do to pressure and burn rate. Probably shoot pressure sky high.

Loading is quite a procedure but worth it for the accuracy and range and long case life. For normal loading I would still lube the cases but I would reduce the charge some and probably use lighter bullets. I'm not sure of the lower stability limit with 55grs. I should test it to see. They're cheaper!

[dtraub215]

Thank you everyone for your insights, they have been very helpful.

I am undecided on whether to do the regular Hornet or the K-Hornet for my subsonic applications. Would one hold the longer bullets better than the other? Also, who do you think makes the best, most accurate molds for heavy .224 cal. bullets? Thank you guys again, all help is very much appreciated.

[dtraub215]

[[QUOTE=M-Tecs;3155105]That is some impressive shooting.

221 Fireball brass will handle the pressure better. ]]

Thank you, I am hoping to be able to do that on a windy day with this build.

When you say the 221 fireball will handle the pressure better, I must say that with subsonics I wouldnt think pressures would be a problem in a Hornet. Am I wrong, would the longer bullets and fast twist create higher pressures than standard Hornet loads. Do you think the 221 fireball can be consistently loaded subsonicly with heavy bullets? Thank you for the help.

[303Guy]

I would hazard a guess and say the larger case for subsonics and heavy bullets would be a better option because the desired velocity can be achieved with lower pressure. Then again the choice of powders would change. I might even look toward the 222 Remington for its long neck although they only came in 1 in 14 twists but when you have a choice of twist rates it might be an option for longer bullets. Its top end is not too shabby either but is not relevant here.

[dtraub215]

I will look into the 222, I agree the long neck would likely help with the longer boolits.

I do not know very much about cast boolits. Do you think they can handle the faster twists at these velocities? I have even been thinking about a gain twist barrel, I wonder if it would be easier on the bullets in such a fast twist barrel?

[303Guy]

There has been discussion on gain twist and cast referring to the 6.5 Carcano. I don't remember the consensus. The AR guys would be able to tell us about cast and fast twist barrels. I don't see a problem with subsonic loads. Boolit design may be more important with fast twist.

[dtraub215]

There has been discussion on gain twist and cast referring to the 6.5 Carcano. I don't remember the consensus. The AR guys would be able to tell us about cast and fast twist barrels. I don't see a problem with subsonic loads. Boolit design may be more important with fast twist.

Thank you again for the guidance!
I will look into the discussion about gain twist on the Carcano? I wonder if the gain twists are easier on the boolit for a fast twist?

Do you know what designs would work better for a fast twist? I guess I should see what the AR shooters use. From my first look they seem to use boolits with gas checks. I dont think I would need them for subsonics, but really I dont know.

I really know nothing about cast boolits, so any help is greatly appreciated.

[303Guy]

Well the heaviest boolit and fastest twist I've ever fired as a 265gr torpedo in a 303 Brit with its 1 in 10 twist. That's actually quite a heavy for caliber boolit. But it was a smooth side and did have a gas check. I'm not a gas check person so I am pursuing plain based boolits. I'm aiming for 1800 fps with a plain base in one rifle. I guess I have my work cut out for me. I also want a lighter boolit at lower velocity in another rifle. For my hornet I would be quite happy with a 60gr cast at as much velocity as I can get from it. I made a swage die a few years ago which does work but I haven't gotten a round tuit. I do have a 55gr RCBS FN mold but it is a bit difficult to cast with and it's a G/C mold.

[35remington]

My own 1-14 K Hornet will not stabilize M193 55FMJ at 2000 fps very well, so I am of the notion that heavier bullets need faster twist.

At some point low velocity lightweight bullets are defeated by environmental factors and hitting becomes hard to do unless I guess right....not easy. I sure don't try to kill anything at long range with it going slow. If I want challenge bordering on frustration try precise long range shooting with it going slow. Whether it works or not depends on your definition of long range. I admit to doing some myself. My definition of long range probably is not as far as some visualize it when shooting that way.

If I really want to hit something at distance I vote fast every time.

This same barrel throws the 225415 sideways at near 1000-1050 fps especially as cooler temps near. Take that for whatever you think it is worth.

[Newtire]

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,231528.0.html Gray Bread Forum's have reamers to rent . Looks and sounds easy to do but I haven't tried it yet.

I've done 2 by hand with rented reamers. Must have done something right as they both shoot great. My rifle gets much better top speeds +250. Pistol=no speed improvement.

[303Guy]

My hornet has an oversize and rough chamber. For case life I head-space on the case mouth and don't size at all. I also have to lube the cases or they will separate on a groove in the chamber. It turned out that with Lil'Gun, the standard hornet will outperform the k-hornet. But now there is a new powder, CFE Blackout, that puts the k-hornet ahead. So now I am considering the k-hornet conversion again. The gain in velocity isn't really worth the cost though, especially that I am no longer allowed to hunt with the hornet on public land. It would be easier to load for though. We'll see what I decide.

[gnoahhh]

Since this thread aired I acquired a very late M54 Winchester in .22 Hornet, that was altered to K-Hornet by Lyle Kilbourn himself (the "K" in K-Hornet). Good golly, with its Lyman Targetspot scope and a steady rest it'll crease the eyelids of house flies at 100 yards. L'il Gun, SP primers and mild SR primers, and 40-45 jacketed bullets are its favorite diet. Two iterations of Ideal 225438 molds give me great hopes for aspirin-sized groups at 100 - if, and only if, I dope the wind well and the stars are in perfect alignment.

https://i.imgur.com/yTQiOcxl.jpg?2

[Newtire]

if, and only if, I dope the wind well and the stars are in perfect alignment.

https://i.imgur.com/yTQiOcxl.jpg?2I thought that only worked with muzzleloaders.

[Goofy]

Looks to me like that M54 found a good home gnoahhh.