30-30 Maximum Distance With Accuracy

[John Boy]

What distance can one shoot a 170gr bullet in a smokeless charged 30-30 with a 24" barrel ... with accuracy?

[starmac]

Are we talking hunting or paper.

[Salmoneye]

Ask these guys...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E4abzmvio0


:bigsmyl2:

[btroj]

Define accuracy. How big or small a 5 shot group are you talking?

I have no doubt that in a good bolt action a 30-30 isplenty accurate way past any range where it would be ideal for hunting deer.

I wouldn't shoot my 336 past 150 for deer but that is my limit. I have a receiver sight on it and don't feel comfortable beyond that range.

A 30-30 is a max 200 yard deer gun because of velocity, not accuracy.

[45 2.1]

A whole lot of people could be seperated from their money on this question.......:mrgreen:

[Bullshop]

Well if a 45/70 can be shot with accuracy to and beyond 1000 yards why not a 30/30.
I think you need to add more yardage or narrow down the possibilities.

[Dan Cash]

My shooting partner and I host a long range BPCR match on his ranch. Last summer, in practice, he used his 336 Marlin .30-30 with 20 inch barrel mounted with Lyman 17A front and a Hoch Long Range tang sight to consistantly hit a 4'x7' steel buffalo at a bit over a thousand yards. Once he got the elevation and cross wind worked out, the hits were consistently 7 or 8 for 10 shots. We did not try for a group as the wind was up and required 20-24 minutes of correction. The load was 30 grains of R15 under a 175 grain Lyman 311041 bullet shot as cast with aluminum FreeChex gas check. He hit the target 15 or so times before we ran out of ammo.

[BoolitSchuuter]

I mentally phrased the question in terms of puttin meat on the table with one shot. I think 200 yds is the practical/ ethical limit for this cartridge on medium size game. It would be fun on a steel buffalo at 1000 yds, but is it practical/ ethical on a live one? I think the poll would have more value if it were better defined. Just my opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it. :bigsmyl2:

[OverMax]

170gr bullet in a smokeless charged 30-30 with a 24" barrel ... with accuracy?

Personally I wouldn't shoot at anything beyond the 150 mark with one. I've tried to tighten my non-scoped 1894s long barrel groupings up at the 200 yard once. I do reload so switching to different powder recipes in hopes of finding its sweet spot (best placement) at that 200 distance never happened for me. Great little 100-150 yard cartridge for pushing cast boolits thru paper though. Out beyond the 150 mark I consider this cartridge very marginal with whatever boolit tip is used. Cast or the J-word. Especially so on large game animals. Just my opinion nothing more.

[rintinglen]

My best groups at 200 run in the 4 to 6 inch range. That is the farthest that I would ever consider shooting at game, and I'd be a lot more comfy if I colud slice another 50 or 60 yards off that.

However, for just shooting at paper or a gong, the sky's the limit! I put 5 out of 5 on a silhouette target at 385 meters once. With a good scoped 30-30 that would be a snap.

[MasS&W]

Id question a 223 at 600 yards for hunting. Much less a 3030. 200 yards imo.

[starmac]

I would question any gun at 600 yards for hunting.
I think most that use a 30/30 in the field hardly ever shoot at a game animal over a hundred yards. Most folks that use and like a 30/30, hunt in country that doesn't present many long range shots.
With my eyes and iron sights 150 yards would be the absolute max.

[largom]

I would question any gun at 600 yards for hunting.
I think most that use a 30/30 in the field hardly ever shoot at a game animal over a hundred yards. Most folks that use and like a 30/30, hunt in country that doesn't present many long range shots.
With my eyes and iron sights 150 yards would be the absolute max.


Agree 100%. Shooting at game at long distance is a measure of ones shooting skill not your HUNTING skill.

Larry

[runfiverun]

i'm gonna go with untill you run out of shim space, canted base, and elevation in the scope far.
or talent for reading the wind far.
whichever comes first.

[1Shirt]

With a scoped 30-30, I MIGHT go 200 yd. With open sights and old eyes, I would limit myself to 100. With receiver sights, might consider 125-150. Regardless of range, it is a matter of proper shot placement. Also it is a factor of a stationary target or a moving target. Figures above are on a standing deer, broadside shot.
On a moving animal, such as a spooked deer, would want 50 yds or less, however am not real fond of cleaning a Texas heart shot!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[John Boy]

I would question any gun at 600 yards for hunting.
At Ridgway R&P Club, a very skilled shooter will be sitting at the bench on the firing line in the AM and before dark with a Lazzeroni Tomahawk waiting on doe days for one to cross the end of the range in the 1000+ yard range. Mel said - 'A head shot only!'
I have personally witnessed Mel put a hole in the middle of an egg at 987 yds.
http://www.ammo-one.com/LazzeroniTomahawk.html

At the Grand Canyon in eastern PA, there are a group of bench rest shooters that set up during deer season. The distance across the gorge is 1000+ meters where they set up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Creek_Gorge

I stated this thread for target accuracy not hunting killing power though the bullet can be used for hunting. I'm going to let the poll run a few more days and then post my 1st range experience with a GG Pb bullet in a 30-30 ... with iron sights

[MasS&W]

Bullet drop with a 3030 at 5 or 600 yards could probably be measured in feet, 3, 4, 5 feet or more. Ditto for wind drift, especially in areas where 600 yard shots are actually possible or merited. Practical accuracy of the openended type you reference specifies repeatability and feasibility. We all know the guy who can bullseye quarters at 200 yards, but they are few and far between.

[45 2.1]

Bullet drop with a 3030 at 5 or 600 yards could probably be measured in feet, 3, 4, 5 feet or more. Your about halfway there. Ditto for wind drift, especially in areas where 600 yard shots are actually possible or merited. Practical accuracy of the openended type you reference specifies repeatability and feasibility. We all know the guy who can bullseye quarters at 200 yards, but they are few and far between. A lot of people loose quite a bit of money from assuming things like that. There are some real riflemen, not just a few, around who can shoot much better than you assume.

My answer: Most of the 170 gr. bullets are flatnose and have a BC of a little over 0.30..... with those ballistics and manual data, the bullet goes transonic at around 500 yards which is the point where most bullets have trouble being accurate any more. So mine is 500 yds....... Or let me choose the bullet or boolit and i'll change the results.

[starmac]

The distance shooting targets would be considerably than my hunting distance, but there again my eyes would limit me. I have to at least see the target to TRY to hit it. lol

With a 30/30, I'm sure there are guys that have gone 600 and beyond.

[helice]

This seems more a factor of instruction, technique, practice, physical ability, plus rifle. The 30-30 cartridge in my Trapper 94 won't shoot like a falling block target rifle. I've sat next to men at the range who can do marvelous things with a rifle. Seems to be a lot of variables here.

[PAT303]

Bullet drop with a 3030 at 5 or 600 yards could probably be measured in feet, 3, 4, 5 feet or more. Your about halfway there. Ditto for wind drift, especially in areas where 600 yard shots are actually possible or merited. Practical accuracy of the openended type you reference specifies repeatability and feasibility. We all know the guy who can bullseye quarters at 200 yards, but they are few and far between. A lot of people loose quite a bit of money from assuming things like that. There are some real riflemen, not just a few, around who can shoot much better than you assume.

My answer: Most of the 170 gr. bullets are flatnose and have a BC of a little over 0.30..... with those ballistics and manual data, the bullet goes transonic at around 500 yards which is the point where most bullets have trouble being accurate any more. So mine is 500 yds....... Or let me choose the bullet or boolit and i'll change the results.

I've also seem riflemen do amazing things on measured rifle ranges at long range but in the bush couldn't hit a damn thing.I would seriously pay to see a riflemen regulary hit a 10'' gong at 500mtrs with a 30/30 in the field using field positions,I think a few would cover it,also any riflemen shooting at that range at a live animal with that type of firearm needs his **** kicked. Pat

[ajjohns]

True story. My Father, who's about 90 has hunted deer since he was a boy growing up in Nthrn Mn putting meat on the table for his family. He told me in the 30's he shot a deer with a 30 wcf single shot (don't know the make) in the head at an insane range. It was the last day and figured he had nothing to lose to just raise the barrel up and volley one at him. After he squeezed the trigger, it dropped. After walking some 500 paces he found the deer dead and couldn't find where he had hit it. After some looking he found it was hit in the top of the head. He said he would never try it again, he didn't think he was lucky to hit it. It was an unlucky deer! I was lucky to have a man like him show me how to shoot. Steady and squeeze.

[45 2.1]

I've also seem riflemen do amazing things on measured rifle ranges at long range but in the bush couldn't hit a damn thing.I would seriously pay to see a riflemen regulary hit a 10'' gong at 500mtrs with a 30/30 in the field using field positions,I think a few would cover it,also any riflemen shooting at that range at a live animal with that type of firearm needs his **** kicked. Pat

I think you missed the question:

30-30 Maximum Distance With Accuracy
What distance can one shoot a 170gr bullet in a smokeless charged 30-30 with a 24" barrel ... with accuracy?

Nothing about rifle style nor sights nor bench or field position were elaborated on, just accuracy. No hunting... just accuracy. Assuming things gets you in trouble.....:mrgreen:

[gnoahhh]

Aside from needing a definition of 'accurate', there's no such thing as being "inherently" accurate. If the case design is such that it'll propel a particular bullet at its optimal-for-accuracy velocity, then the remaining factors are quality of the barrel, sighting equipment, launch platform (action/stock and bedding of same), and operator skill. A .30/30 cartridge is as 'accurate' as a .30/06, .300 magnum, .223, .270, ad nauseum.

The whole question of how far out there a .30/30 is accurate leaves me scratching my head- it raises more questions than answers, and is in and of itself unanswerable.

[runfiverun]

the bullet remaining stable will be about it.
you need mass,rotation,and velocity to do that.
if you purpose built the rifle and used brass to take the pressures.
you could easily extend the range of the 30-30 to be in the same class as a 308.
simply because you would be duplicating it's velocitys with the same bullet.
they are both 7.62 x 51 rounds after all.
it is just case capacity and working pressure separating them.
fix the pressure end of the equasion and thngs start to equal out.
the 30-30 has just about the same case capacity of the 300 savage.

[Nobade]

I shoot my Rem 788 30-30 in high power silhouette matches. NOE #311041 + IMR 3031 works great, if I read the wind and hold on the target when the shot breaks it falls. So I know for sure it works to knock over a 60lb. target at 500 meters.

Hunting? That's another story. I probably wouldn't shoot a deer past 200 yards with it, though I have no doubt it would kill one a lot further away than that.

[John Boy]

OK, here's my FIRST experience with maximum distance with accuracy shooting a 30-30:
Here's what I read in the 1949 Ideal Handbook:

The Ideal 311413 ... Squibb gas-check bullet for the Springfield and other 30-06 rifles. Perhaps the most accurate gas-check bullet yet produced. Excellent for target practice up to 600yds

Note the words ... most accurate and up to 600 yards
So, I watched eBay 'hard' for that mold and was lucky to win a bid on the 311413, then - cast a 100 - put GC's on them and reload 20 with the powder charge in the 1949 Handbook

I had the pleasure to shoot it for the 1st time Sunday ...
http://www.three-peaks.net/images/311413_169g.gif

... after our 2 day Lever Action Silhouette Match at Ridgway.

Winchester M94, 30-30, Williams peep and a too fat diopter pin on the front sight (which I'm replacing)
Ideal 311413 - Brinell 15.3 - 170.8gr
16.5gr IMR 4759

A box of 20:
* got the 0.481" setting for the 300m pigs - downed 3 in a row
* got the 0.700" setting for the 500m rams - (an approximate 7 inch, 5 shot group on the 500m swinger per my spotter) and then downed 1 ram ... no more rounds


I'm a believer ... 500 meters = 546 yards! :)

[45 2.1]

You might try it within the parameters you set. Several people on the forum can tell you what can be done with heavier pointy boolits.

[MasS&W]

I know I can hit a 10" target easily, and an 8" plate with some setup, at 300 yards. That's a 35 remington pet load with a 116 grain bullet trucking along at 2900 feet per second. I suppose this may translate to some 30/30 loads, but I still stand on my opinion of 200 yards, as imo it should be assumed that iron sights are being used. When questions like this get asked, its far easier to assume real world bare bones variables, rather than getting into the whole "well.. if you put a 15 power scope on it with a ransom rest, in a vacuum on the moon with 1/6th earths gravity...". Iron sights and factory loads I say. Just my opinion though, your mileage will vary.

[Lonegun1894]

Using a Winchester 94 with a 20" barrel and iron sights, firing the Lee 170grFNGC, back when I had access to a 1500yd range and nothing except guns and ammo to spend my money on, I used to shoot "bipedal varmint" paper silhouettes out to 650yds, which is where my groups fell apart fast. Out to 550, I could keep 9/10 somewhere on the paper. Plastic gallon milkjugs were 10/10 out to 350, and fell to 9/10 at 400, and coke cans were 9/10 at 250. I have taken jackrabbits with that rifle out to 325yds, but my longest shot on a deer was 175yds, and I don't think I would do that today unless it was in perfect conditions. Now before someone rips me apart here, I do not say I like the idea of long range "hunting", and limit my shots to much closer ranges than I used to. But the above os just to say that some very good shooting is possible with the "outdated" (or so I've been told) .30-30, plenty of time, and ammo. Now when I say plenty of time, I spent about a full month basically camped out at the range starting in mid April til mid May '05 leaving only long enough to go resupply on ammo from my apartment and when I needed a shower. Not having had access to a range with anything beyond 300 since then, I have no delusions of being capable of that kind of shooting anymore, but I know the rifle would do it back then, and there is nothing special about it to differentiate it from any other .30-30. Just a old, but great, rifle I picked up used a month after I turned old enough to go get it.

Now getting to this point back then involved a lot of "hail Mary" shots that I wouldn't have tried if I hadn't had a mountain for a backstop. My hits were few and far between til I started getting a good idea of drop at various ranges, which wasn't as bad as I thought, but was worse than I was used to with my .30-06.

[hickstick_10]

If your not limited to what type of gun you can shoot it out of and what type of bullet you're using, I would have alot of faith in the 30-30 for some long shots. On paper that is.

Personally I think to many people associate a long point blank range with accuracy. As was mentioned before, look what you can pull off with the 45-70.

[TXGunNut]

I have a scoped Marlin 336 that I feel will deliver acceptable hunting accuracy @ 150+ yards, also have a Trapper with aperture receiver sights that I feel comfortable out to 75 yards if I were to take it hunting. Must admit I'm a limiting factor, each rifle in the hands of a better shooter are capable of double that. I don't consider the 30-30 a long range hunting rifle but that doesn't mean it's not capable of doing so effectively. I practice offhand rifle shooting so I have a pretty good idea of my capabilities, I generally pass on longer shots even if I can make it easily on paper.

[TXGunNut]

I think you missed the question:

30-30 Maximum Distance With Accuracy
What distance can one shoot a 170gr bullet in a smokeless charged 30-30 with a 24" barrel ... with accuracy?

Nothing about rifle style nor sights nor bench or field position were elaborated on, just accuracy. No hunting... just accuracy. Assuming things gets you in trouble.....:mrgreen:


Maybe so, but for me anyway the 30-30 is a hunting rifle cartridge, for some of us the definitive hunting rifle. I, for one, often forget what a fine cartridge it can be in an accurate rifle.

[12DMAX]

I shoot mcintosh apples off the top off my brothers head at 124 steps in the back pasture when the cows aint out with my 336 reciever sighted cold blue steel lever action tube fed 30-30.:kidding:

[Mooseman]

That is either BS or one of the MOST IRRESPONSIBLE things a gun owner could say publicly.

[12DMAX]

That is either BS or one of the MOST IRRESPONSIBLE things a gun owner could say publicly.

Does that make it all better for you?

[starmac]

Don't waste the apples, just use an empty soda can. lol

Back in my younger, wilder,crazier,just plain stupid days, I did hold up a beer can while my uncle shot a hole in it with a 22 pistol.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

The original post seems to be a request for the longest distance at which you've achieved reasonable accuracy with a .30-30. I loaded up some 170 gn GC bullets from a Lee standard production mold, lubed with BAC, over 10 gns of Hercules Green Dot. A friend shot them at a 200 yd target through his Marlin 336 with a Tasco 6x scope. I retrieved the target. Ten of them in a group of about two inches. He held at the the top ring of the target (don't remember specifically what it was), and the holes were about sixteen inches below the point of sight in the scope. I would have thought it to be an accident, if it had not been for the reload and more rounds than the magazine holds. It CAN happen.

[12DMAX]

He's jerking our chain Mooseman, plus he's from PA, they shoot at sound in the bushes.:kidding:

Movement my friend, if you hear it its too late:p

[OnHoPr]

As well as you can reload and shoot your gun and your gun. Also, what you think constitutes accuracy. They have BCR shoots at 20" to 36" bulls at a 1000 yd.

[jh45gun]

I would feel comfortable at 150 better at a 100. Longest shot I ever shot at a deer (doe) and connected (One shot kill) was a couple of years ago with my Marlin GG 45/70 a ranged by two range finders 190 yards. I felt comfortable with that shot as I was using a rest and the gun is scoped with a 1.5x4. Weaver scope. I also ahead of time figured out the trajectory and the hold over. I was sighted in at 100 yards. With the load I was using I held a foot over her back to get it into the lungs heart area and it went through the front leg and through the heart and out the other side. If I would have had my Winchester Model 94 I don't know if I would have taken the shot or not. I consider both my lever guns woods rifles. I have a Swedish Mauser 6.5x55 with a scout scope set up for long shots.

[Salmoneye]

Movement my friend, if you hear it its too late:p

I realize you are 'joshing', but...

I knew both of these guys:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066891/Hunter-kills-accidentally-shooting-friend-dead.html

[MtGun44]

Define "accuracy" first.

Bill

[John Boy]

Define "accuracy" first. Bill, is MOA groups ... with iron sights close enough for you?
MOA or less has always been the standard definition. Do you have a different definition?

[jh45gun]

Bill, is MOA groups ... with iron sights close enough for you?
MOA or less has always been the standard definition. Do you have a different definition?

It was a reasonable question a lot of old timers with 30/30 Winchesters always said if you could hit a pie plate at a 100 yards it was good enough to kill a deer. That certainly is not MOA but good enough for them.

[starmac]

I don't think this poll is about moa, or 600 yards would not be a consideration?????

[Lonegun1894]

Not to be agrumentative, but I didn't take accuracy to mean MOA either. We have all at some point tried shooting groups "good enough" for a certain application, and accepted them. Like the posts above mentioned, manu consider plate size groups to be good enough for deer. What is good enough for deer isn't good enough for squirrel. When I mentioned shooting in my post earlier about playing at longer ranges by shooting at inanimate objects such as cans and milkjugs, ANY HIT on them was good enough, even though the vast majority weren't MOA, but it allowed me to practice and improve and test what I was capable of with that gun back then. All I'm trying to say is that there is a difference between practical accuracy and target accuracy. While I WANT MOA accuracy with all my rifles, I dont NEED it with most because I can't maintain that level in the field from field positions. Take my muzzleloader for example, even though it isn't a .30-30. I have taken several deer with it out to 110 yds with a round ball, and I can do 4" at 100yds with it. That isn't even close to MOA, but it is accurate enough that I have never had a problem trusting it to work very well out to 100yds on deer or hogs--and it has never failed me. So for that purpose, within the 100yd range limitation, that rifle is what I consider accurate for its intended purpose. It's not accurate enough for me to trust it past 125yds however in a hunting situation.

[Jaybird62]

The distance at which the bullet goes trans-sonic.

[starmac]

Well it isn't no wonder, a ram at 600 yards would look like a squirrels eye to me. lol

[w30wcf]

John
Accuracy has been very good at 500 meters on a calm day....from a solid benchrest.

Go to a 30-30 propelled 200-220 gr bullet and "good to go" at 1,000 yards.

w30wcf

[MtGun44]

I asked because most lever guns (most .30-30s are lever guns) will not produce the
kind of groups that bolt guns will, IME. Also, most people use .30-30 for hunting and
"accuracy" would be good enough at 5-6" groups to kill a deer. Should be no trouble
to get a 5" group at 250-300 yds, depending on sights, shooting position and shooter.

If you want MOA groups from a .30-30, in a lever gun, you have set a fairly high bar. Not
impossible, but not trivial, either.

Bill

[geargnasher]

A .30-30 levergun can be exceptionally accurate, particularly for short strings of fire, provided a little work is done to the junk hanging off of the barrel. I've never found the rear locking bolt to be an accuracy disadvantage for practical shooting. My Marlin .30-30 routinely turns in half inch, five shot groups at 100 yard from the bench with a 4X scope, at the high end of medium velocity with cast boolits, but it isn't by accident. My .35 Remington is close behind. It won't keep ten at a time there, though, due to barrel heat. Many leverguns are severely disabled by forearm, band, and mag tube bind.

Gear

[Multigunner]

The .30-30 has been used in target competition in Australia, usually in rebarreled SMLE or single shot actions.
I've been told its extremely accurate at 200 yard mark, which coincides with the favored range of similar rounds such as the .32-40 and 8.15X46r.

At a guess I'd put its reasonable accuracy limitation for a lever action with 24 inch barrel at 600 yards, the carbine being considered a 300 yard mankiller by the Texas Rangers who considered the .30-40 Krag carbine to be good for 400 yards in a gun battle against live targets that shot back, some rifles of course being more accurate or better suited to the cartridge than others. Accuracy with factory loads would be less than with taylored handloads, and box magazine fed actions would allow a better choice of bullets suited for longer ranges.

Some of the high grade custom ordered Model 94 rifles with 26 inch barrel and tang mounted peep sights could probably outshoot some purpose built target rifles.

Reduced power loads of more powerful main battle cartridges that mimic the .30-30 in trajectory appear to improve medium range grouping ability, but these are not likely to hold any such advantage beyond 600 yards if that far.
The slower the bullet starts out the quicker it drops below super sonic velocity and becomes vulnerable to transonic buffeting. Typical .30-30 flat base round or flat nose bullets would be more vulnerable to buffeting than boat tail spire points.
Thos bullets with the plastic nose insert may be better for longer range than the traditional round nose or flat nose bullets.

[Canuck Bob]

I answered the poll at 200 yards as my absolute limit for hunting accuracy.

For a benched iron sighted rifle and targets as John Boy sorta defined for his original question I figure I could dial in my 32 Special to hit a 2 foot square piece of plywood at quite a distance but can't prove it yet. I think 350 is doable but 500 just doesn't seem realistic for me. It sure sounds like some fun trying. Years ago I dialed in a 22 on my uncle's farm for quite a distance and an old sheet of plywood. There was also a time I could hit gophers at the limit of my ability to see them with my 10/22 and a peep.

However my personal definition of accuracy is a working rather than target definition. What an accomplished rifleman can do at the range is much different than what can be done under field conditions. Hunting accuracy is a paper plate, 8 inch circle, with peep sights and sitting, 200 best. In my military days hitting a man size target from prone, say an 18"X24" target, 500 meters often enough to be dangerous.

Someday I might buy and set-up a true precision rifle but at 60 it is getting less likely every day. My personal goal for the next year is to tune me and my 32 Special up to shoot 5" groups at 200 paces with a Lyman 66 and cast bullets from my bench, the hood of my Jeep. For my 303 LE No.5 I just have to try 500 paces with issue sights. I'm planning half a sheet of plywood for my target backing though. The 303 groups ok but the sights are a pain to dial in.

[TXGunNut]

Seems to me this thread and others like it would get better responses with a concise definition of "accuracy". Interesting responses, though.

[John Boy]

Bill, is MOA groups ... with iron sights close enough for you?
MOA or less has always been the standard definition. Do you have a different definition? TX, let's try it again ... what's your definition of accuracy?

* 53% of the poll responses say 200yds is maximum accuracy
* Ideal made a bullet mold that said the 311413 was accurate for target practice to 600yds
* I bought the old mold, cast 170gr GC bullets and shot a 7" group at 500 meters with iron sights and a too fat Marbles front sight- just short of 600yds to determine if the Ideal handbook words were BS or Fact. So, I'm a believer the handbook words are fact
* w30wcf, a very knowledgeable and accurate 30 caliber shooter says ... a 30 caliber in 200-220grs will make it to

MOA groups @ 500 meters is 5.46 inches - so I shot a 7" group from rest with iron sights that was 1.54 inches greater than MOA

[TXGunNut]

Effective hunting accuracy is 2-3 MOA under the conditions I generally hunt in but I feel a rifle that approaches or goes less than MOA is a truly accurate rifle for my skill level and purposes. I try to get 1.5MOA from my leverguns but I don't attempt long shots on game, shots on paper or steel are another matter altogether. My standard of accuracy depends on the situation and equipment. As I mentioned above I have different expectations and uses for the 30-30's I own.
I'm more interested in your expectations and conditions, I think you'll get better input that way. The 30WCF is one of my current projects and I'm more than a little curious about the subject. I know it performs better than is commonly believed but I want to figure out how to get the most from it.
Not wanting to hijack the thread, just want to keep it on track.
Damn fine shootin, BTW, John Boy!

[John Boy]

TX, the only game I hunt any more is waterfowl, with a shotgun!:-P
When I hunted deer, it too was with a shotgun with slugs and buckshot. In PA I used rifles with scopes. In total, I stopped counting at 35 deer. My last deer was in 1993 using a scoped 308 from a shooting box. From rest, the 8 point buck went down like a sack of potatoes at a measured distance of 268 yds. With a slug gun I never shot more than 75 yds and buckshot was even less distance

I'm strictly a target and silhouette shooter now with iron sight rifles only - no scopes though I have a 32-40 mounted with a 12X Fecker that I plan to use for target shooting for even smaller groups.

My BPCR vernier sight load developments are to knock down silhouettes from 200 to 500 meters and Mid and Long Range target shooting to put as many bullets in the black and hopefully center hits. For example, at 1000yds, the X ring is 10 inches (MOA @ 1000yds) and the 10 ring is 20 inches ( 2x MOA). If I put holes in the X and 10 rings, I'm as happy as the proverbial pig. This is my definition of accuracy - MOA or less at the various target distances

The whole purpose for starting the thread was to determine what folks felt was the maximum accuracy distance with a 30-30 ... not knowing that there is a bullet, the 311413, that can be shot at 600 yds - which I satisfied myself it was accurate to 546yds (500 meters) ... close enough to 600 yds

[TXGunNut]

You're correct that the 30-30 is an accurate round at much longer distances than most folks realize. J-word spitzers and boattails are a waste of technology for most reasonable hunting distances, IMHO. Wish I could see irons well enough to hunt with the rifles I can't bear to mount a scope on. I'd like to give BPCR silhouette shooting a try but so far I can't make it work. On a good day I can have fun with peeps and may eventually happen upon a combo that works but for hunting I can and in most cases will use a scoped rifle. These days I only hunt hogs and cull deer, hope to use a 30WCF on both soon. Scope comes in handy for carefully evaluating horns or smacking hogs in low light conditions.

[GabbyM]

Accuracy is one thing. However trajectory takes a nose dive past 250 yards with a 30-30.

[45 2.1]

Accuracy is one thing. However trajectory takes a nose dive past 250 yards with a 30-30.

Lot of things like that......... however they make things called rangefinders, scopes and adjustable sights to compensate. Use those things and you will be really amazed what you can hit. Try a 22 long rifle rimfire at 500 yards..............:bigsmyl2:

[PAT303]

The question was a 30/30 in a 24'' barrelled rifle with 170grn boolits,depends on the rifle,ammunition,shooters skill,range conditions etc etc.With an off the rack winchester '94 the range would be not very far,with a tweaked rifle and good sights/loads/shooter the range would be very far. Pat

[45 2.1]

[QUOTE=PAT303;1898446]The question was a 30/30 in a 24'' barrelled rifle with 170grn boolits [QUOTE]

No Sir......... he said: What distance can one shoot a 170gr bullet in a smokeless charged 30-30 with a 24" barrel ... with accuracy?

The normal 170 gr. bullet in the 30-30 is a jacketed flat nose. He said bullet, not boolit indicating it was jacketed....... not the 169 gr. 311413 he used. We already knew from w30wcf's posts of what it could do with heavy cast boolits. Weight and nose style effect ballistics greatly.

[.45Cole]

John Boy-
If you are hunting or 'walkin' around' then look into Point Blank Range, it is what you should consider if you have open sights. ++1 As defined by Lyman
If for benchrest accuracy, go buy a benchrest gun (assuming you have a lever)

the question is very subjective, as each gun will differ

[FergusonTO35]

When his eyes were better my Dad could easily keep all the rounds from his Marlin in a 3-4" group at 200 yards from a kneeling position, I saw him do it. With my own Glenfield 30 (my most accurate centerfire) and its favorite loads my max is 150 yards. I do believe a real marksman could take it out to at least 250, but that isn't me!!

[rhouser]

LeverRevolution Ammo has pushed the limit out to 200 if it is a clean shot. If 150 yards had been a choice on the poll, it would have been mine. rc

[Crash_Corrigan]

I have a Winchester 1885 Model in 50-90 Sharps with some very good vernier sights on it.

With a cast 695 GR Creedmor boolit over 102 Gr of Swiss 1 1/2 powder then a wad and slightly compressed I can with regularity hit the bison at 500 meters. Is that a great shot? Not really. An expert with a decent BPCR can fire a group into the x ring at 1,000 yds using similiar caliber and such.

I shoot that shoulder breaker just for fun and I love hearing that clang from 546 yds away.

[Don McDowell]

I picked the 2nd 200 yds:-P which I'm assuming was meant to be 300. You can reach that easily with the sights as supplied with the rifle. Add a good target peep sight (either tang or reciever) and a globe sight with your favored apperature, and like Dan said 1000 yds is plumb doable if you have enough sight staff to get there.

[Tracy]

I went with 200 yards, defined as maximum point-blank hunting range on a deer-size target.

[ndh87]

I had a 336 with a 16 inch barrel that would hit 2 liter coke bottles at 300 yards

[w30wcf]

Not a 170 gr bullet (200 gr 311465 group buy) but 4 shots in about MOA at 547 yards....:-D

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/500meters.jpg


w30wcf

[chajohnson]

Since this is a levergun topic I won't comment on the accuracy of my Savage Model 340. What I consider accurate in a 30-30 lever action rifle would be about 3 MOA. Even with a good scope I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to group reliably on paper for money or put meat on the table at any range over 200 yrds. Since this is a cast bullet forum, I'm also assuming the use of cast bullets. I live in West Texas & many a shot on deer & coyotes have presented themselves beyond this range. The few times I've taken the shot, I found it was a waste of powder, primer, lead, lube, & time.

[nanuk]

He's jerking our chain Mooseman, plus he's from PA, they shoot at sound in the bushes.:kidding:

I saw a documentary on "Hunting in Vermont"

I think I peed my pants laughing!

[nanuk]

MOD = Minute of Deer (or what ever you are hunting)

What I have taken to doing is make a conscious decision as to what distance I can "Center" hold on deer, and hunt my way to get within that distance with what ever cartridge I carry.

range distance is known. walking through a clearing, do you REALLY know how far the treeline is? once the boolit is on its way down, 15yds makes a BIG difference.

that is why I like and use "Point Blank Range" and the gun needs power to kill within that range.

for a moose, a PBR for a 3030 has to be somewhere near 300yds. I'd need to check on that for sure. But a 170gr or heavier 30cal from a 3030 will kill a moose at 300 yds if you put it through the lungs.

[MT Gianni]

My son wanted to shoot on Thanksgiving. We had some guns @ the range and I had my 30-30 Mod 94, receiver sight with no appature in it. He ran a couple of filled milk jugs up the hill to about 250 yards, split it with the second shot and hit it 50 % of the time as it rolled down to about 200 yards. He prefers to shoot off hand not from a bench, so 50% hits on a milk jug @ unknown ranges with a 311407 copy loaded about 1500 fps standing. Now he wants the gun not realizing that it is mostly young eyes.

[FAsmus]

John Boy;

I recently got my 50s vintage Marlin 336 out of mothballs to try on our recently opened "short" silhouette range ~ some 175 yards closer than the "long" version of the same targets.

At first my load was the standard accuracy load of 15 grains 4759 and the NEI 178.308. This combination worked very well. I was amazed at how easy it was (compared to the 22RF) to get get hits on our targets right on out to 411 yards.

The next distance, of 470 yards to the "Chicken" was tougher as the short sight radius ganged up on the slow load's performance.

I changed over to a higher speed combination - 36 grains WW760 and the same bullet - but heat-treated. This is, as you see, a full-power jacketed load under a HT cast bullet - but still within the rifle's capability.

This load performed well, allowing me to reach out to the 671 yard target easily enough with the installed receiver sight and Lyman 17A front for the first time I tried it. Results were interesting but, so far, semi-inconclusive.

Further testing is indicated but the 30 WCF is alive and well, ready to go when the snow melts off.

Good evening,
Forrest

[1bluehorse]

I can't see a 10in black circle at 500 meters...:veryconfu

[HARRYMPOPE]

Since this is a levergun topic I won't comment on the accuracy of my Savage Model 340. What I consider accurate in a 30-30 lever action rifle would be about 3 MOA. Even with a good scope I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to group reliably on paper for money or put meat on the table at any range over 200 yrds. Since this is a cast bullet forum, I'm also assuming the use of cast bullets. I live in West Texas & many a shot on deer & coyotes have presented themselves beyond this range. The few times I've taken the shot, I found it was a waste of powder, primer, lead, lube, & time.

I think this is the most sensible response.

[HARRYMPOPE]

True about low velocity holding accuracy with heavy higher BC bullets at long range.This is a 30-30 out of a levergun and presents it's own set of problems.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Why not load a long, heavy bullet over a load that gives, say, 17-1800 ft/sec in the typical 30 WCF?

I have done this with the 40/65 on a modified Marlin 1895 at the Quigley Match and come up winner in the "Lever Gun" class a couple times. My load was with the 350 grain SAECO 65640. Single load only as the rounds are way too long to run through the magazine.

I took this idea and have begun loading my Marlin 336 for accuracy with a HT RCBS 30-180-SP. These are early days but the load should work once I do some research.

Once this is in hand there in no reason at all that the load shouldn't perform as well as any other rifle that will shoot into about an inch and half or slightly more at 100 yards.

Good evening,
Forrest

[HARRYMPOPE]

I have shot 200g bullets in a heavy barrel 1-12 30-30 788 bolt gun and a custom heavy barrel 1-10 Savage 99 30-30 with very good luck at that velocity.

[BAGTIC]

Who is shooting? That is the most important factor.

[FAsmus]

Bagtic;

My!

I'm shooting - of course!

Good morning,
Forrest

[larryp]

Longest shot I've done with a 30-30 was with my wife's Winchester 94 Pack rifle (18" barrel, half mag). I had a chance at a big whitetail doe in the middle of my in laws alfalfa field. There was no chance to stalk closer so I rested the rifle on top a fence post and dropped her with one shot. Range was 225yards and ammo was a 170 gr. Remington Core-lok.
edit to add: rifle has a 4x scope on it. Here's a pic of it. I think the half magazine increases accuracy due to the lack of a barrel band affecting barrel harmonics.
56679

[smkummer]

I believe the true cause of the 30-30 being somewhat folklore limited to accurate long range bullet placement is the buckhorn sights and bead front. They are great for putting on a deer at 50 to 150 yards when one walks out in front of the shooter but cover 9 1/2 inches of black target at 100 yards. I have my rear sight adjusted way up so as to sight it for 6 oclock hold and my 100 yards groups shrank in 1/2 the size easily. While I could change the sights, I really don't want to take the rifle out of its element as being a fast handling woods rifle.

[Maximumbob54]

This is why I'm voting 600 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQM9N6wQko

[popper]

100 only because I don't have a place to try for longer shots.

[NickSS]

I have killed one deer at a distance of 210 yards as measured by a laser range finder. The load was 35 gr of Win 748 and a 170 gr core lock bullet. I routinely shoot metallic Silhouettes at 200 yards using a 165 gr PB bullet and 15 gr of 2400 or the same bullet and 8 gr of Unique. Both loads will print 3 inch 10 shot groups from my two model 94 Winchesters from a bench rest. I have no trouble at all hitting any of the targets at that range except on dark days when my eye sight can not pick out the sights as well through my tang sight.

[1Shirt]

This has been a good thread with good comments. There are the hunters comments, the group shooters comments, the lob them in at X range comments, etc,etc.etc. All good comments and all valid for the individual. Since I was fortunate enough to get 6 cav. Ranch Dog Molds w/ and w/o gas checks, think that will become the only boolit I will drive in my 94 30-30. And think I may start playing with some of the lob the in at X ranges myself.
1Shirt!

[KCSO]

The 30-30 is under rated by the modern crowd but the members of the Willie Nichols long range shooting society knoow better. I would not be afraid to take on a man size target at 500 yards with a scoped 788 30-30.

[Win94ae]

Who is shooting? That is the most important factor.

That is always what it boils down to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQM9N6wQko
The 3 shots on the upper left of that board is my 300 yard 3 shot group.

Now that I use the stock sights, (which I prefer over other iron sights I've used,) I'm limited to 400 yards with reasonable accuracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ToR4pyqUg
Bullet ballistic coefficient plays a big part in consistent one shot hits, that is why I like the Hornady FTX so much... it is a shame I really can't afford them. :(

Also, velocity plays a big part when I'm using the stock sights; they only have so much elevation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNDS2-nwBME

Hopefully I'll learn how to cast well enough, (which is why I've registered,) to get some of my own bullets to hit as far.

[nanuk]

I have my rear sight adjusted way up so as to sight it for 6 oclock hold and my 100 yards groups shrank in 1/2 the size easily.


isn't that how Everybody sets up their sights?

that is the Only way I do mine!

[30calflash]

Nice shooting Win94ae, can you comment on your rifle and loads a little? You have spent some time in this area and the results show it!

This might be common knowledge to the BPCR guys but there are few in the northeast and many folks own Win or Marlin 30-30's that would take some time to explore the possibilities.

[grampa243]

Well if a 45/70 can be shot with accuracy to and beyond 1000 yards why not a 30/30.
I think you need to add more yardage or narrow down the possibilities.

boolit weight and balistic cofishant and speed it leaves the gun at. :)
p.s. and what gun.. handgun no way. sharps no problem.

[Rick Hodges]

I consider the 30-30 to be a 200 yd. hunting rifle for deer sized game. The cartridge is capable of shooting accurately way beyond that in the right rifle. Most common 30-30's in lever action mode are fully capable of killing deer at 200 yds.

[Garyshome]

Too many trees to shoot farther than 150 yds. I couldn't see any farther than that anyway.

[dakota]

200 yards steel targets, 150 yards - deer

[otter5555]

haven't started on my 3030 yet (next week), but am shooting iron / busting rocks with my 44 mag handi. 240gr swc, 980 fps @ 550yds daily. yep, it's a rainbow but that's why God gave us laser rangefinders :)

i'm hoping the 3030 w/ 180fn @ 1350 fps will stretch 800 yds. we'll see soon :)

[lka]

I am also working on my 3030 load, I scored a box of 500 flat-tipped jacketed bullets from a yard sale for 40.00 last week
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/02/uzegatan.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/02/aneqavyb.jpg

[FAsmus]

Those are mighty strange-looking cast bullets ~

[Lonegun1894]

I was thinking the same thing, but then figured that they're the swaged ones I haven't messed with yet. Then again, and for the record, I strongly prefer cast in my .30-30s and most other calibers, this thread is about accuracy, and like has been said here many times, cast is NOT a disadvantage in the .30-30 at all, and if anything can be an advantage. So if someone chooses to do their testing with jacketed, I see it as a limited test that the rest of us should be looking at as a bottom rung that we should all be able to exceed. Not talking trash, but just in my experience, all three of my .30-30s are more accurate with cast than jacketed.

[Win94ae]

Nice shooting Win94ae, can you comment on your rifle and loads a little?

Sorry for the late reply.

The rifle is setup the same now as when I bought it in 1983. The only thing I may do differently is keep the barrel band screws the same tension; they'll loosen from time to time causing a change in harmonic vibration.

I find the Audette Ladder Test to be the easiest and least costly method of load development; I'll usually find a sub-moa load within 10 shots. I've never found a jacketed bullet that didn't shoot sub-moa in this rifle. I hope I have as good of luck when I start casting, (probably July 26th when my molds are due.)
I don't mess with seating depth, I'll set it for proper cycling through the action, then leave it at that.

Thanks!

[30calflash]

Hi Win94ae, no problem on the reply.

I was curious as to possible modifications to the rifle and any special components used to get the level of accuracy you have obtained. There's a lot of misinformation regarding accuracy in lever actions and wanted to see if you used anything above and beyond to get the results you have.

I'm wondering if the AE models can produce a higher level of accuracy opposed to the older models. Mine are of the regular type. It may seem like nit picking but it can mean a big difference downrange.

When using the ladder method, do you use it at 100 yards or further for the 30-30? Thanks for your efforts.


Sorry for the late reply.

The rifle is setup the same now as when I bought it in 1983. The only thing I may do differently is keep the barrel band screws the same tension; they'll loosen from time to time causing a change in harmonic vibration.

I find the Audette Ladder Test to be the easiest and least costly method of load development; I'll usually find a sub-moa load within 10 shots. I've never found a jacketed bullet that didn't shoot sub-moa in this rifle. I hope I have as good of luck when I start casting, (probably July 26th when my molds are due.)
I don't mess with seating depth, I'll set it for proper cycling through the action, then leave it at that.

Thanks!

[MarkP]

When I was 25 years old I shot a 41/50 in sporting clays with my Rem M1100 Skeet 410; I got a 1/10 on the last station (Springing Teals @35+ yds) would I shoot this shotgun at pheasant at that time, heck no! (Way back then I knew better and I wish I could shoot that way now)

Depends what you are shooting. At game with a 30-30 Win 150 to 175 yds; 300 to 400 yds at 2 liter pop bottles filled with H2O. or whatever distance you can shoot at.

WAY Too many cable shows showing long range shooting that are total BS!

[Win94ae]

When using the ladder method, do you use it at 100 yards or further for the 30-30? Thanks for your efforts.

I shoot my ladder at 300 yards.

I really don't do anything out of the ordinary. Here is the last time I load developed with the rifle.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abMYqW2mu4k

That was all the components I could get at that time, blemished FTX bullets and H414; so it made for a slow load, but it was accurate.

[dmize]

My first "deer rifle" was a 336 I bought brand new at Wal Mart for $140 in 1981.
Had a good friend that taught me to reload and I ended up shooting it a LOT.
With a cheap 4x Tasco scope I busted milk jugs at 200 yards all day long.
Killed a deer at a later lazer checked 225 yards,1 shot broadside thru the chest.
Accuracy??? Well I got my butt chewed royaly and spend an hour with a hacksaw cutting the 1/2 in. bolt off the center link of a disk that I dead centered with my "durty thurty

[Cosmiceyes]

I have hit,and killed deer out to 200 yards. I used 24"bbl 94 30-30 150 gr.reloads maxed out.In my more modern 24" bbl 94AE 7-30 waters I have taken deer,goats,pigs,and many escaped exotics(from neighbors ranch) at 300 yds.I have a Browning mod 92 20in. 357 mag that I have taken deer,foxes,rabbits,coyote,bob cat,raccoon,pigs,stray dogs,domestic cats,and rats out to 125 yards.
I was raised on a ranch in west Texas where low life's dump their pets.There is no animal control to call.Dogs pack up,and drag down calves.Cats go wild,and kill game birds for fun which they do not eat.It's not fun,and no one liked having to do it.We couldn't afford not to.I had my first gun the year before pre-school.It was my"job" to kill varmints like Jackrabbits daily.10 jacks can eat as much grass in a day as 1 head of cattle. During certain years I was paid .01 cent for 2 sets of ears at the feed store.The money came from the Cattleman's Assoc.I could only make money if I didn't miss.At a later date,I used the wagon to haul them back to the house whole to freeze them. We took them out to cut them into pieces to feed the dogs.

[358wcf]

Gents,
Last April, I used my M94 Musket w/26" barrel and receiver sight on a 6" gong at a measured 350 yds- Standing position, leaning against a vehicle for stability- load was a cast 170 grain boolit w/gc over 10.0 gr Unique, Win LRP- a low velocity but accurate load- my observer used a spotting scope to walk my shots in to the gong, as I could not see the impacts in the alfalfa field (we were shooting ground squirrels)- 3 shots to walk me in to the gong-(rear sight all the way up) then he says "you're on it!" I put 5 rounds in the mag tube and hit the gong with 4 of the 5- at that point I put the rifle back in the case and called it a success- I knew I couldn't keep it up any longer- 350 yds with old eyes and iron sights and a tiny gong is bad enough!
The 30-30 will do the job accuracy wise in a good rifle, if you do yours- the key is, DO YOUR JOB!
358wcf

[Catsmith]

Good read. Been working on a hunting load for my winny trapper. I must be getting older cause i am working up a 75 yd load with low recoil on purpose. Lol.

[Lonegun1894]

Catsmith,
There's a HUGE difference between old, and just a mature, experienced hunter who knows what you need for your conditions instead of what the gun rags tell you that you need. I prefer to think of myself as not old just yet. I think. Yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[barrabruce]

I'd go about 325yds. That's where my 170 fp load would go transonic or subsonic and pack it in for me.
Same bullet subsonic the same distance easy enough to shoot in a hand span.
Constrapulating 500yrder shots etc and the wind is too hard for me to guesstimate where it may land let alone down to the 1 knt etc.

That's just me thou.

Hunting well about 100 yds standing 200 maybe more with a rest on something and how steady and confident I felt at the time with the shot and conditions present.If not I'd have to get closer or watch it for a while and enjoy the moment anyway.
Such is life.

Barra
Ohhh I'd like to go way out yonder thou if I could only see where the bloody things were hitting!!!

[1Shirt]

Well, after reading thru all of the threads, have decided that maybe the issue is shooting vs. lobbing boolits or bullets. With enough sight elevation and with minimal wind, lobbing a projectile a thousand yards is not a big deal. (A 22 LR will GO a mile but the elevation of the muzzle is steep for sure). Accuracy shooting at 1000 yards is another whole ball of wax, and for the gifted shooter, with young eyes, great wind doping qualities, and a bit of luck thrown in. More power to them that can do such things, as I am not one of them.
1Shirt!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I have hit,and killed deer out to 200 yards. I used 24"bbl 94 30-30 150 gr.reloads maxed out.In my more modern 24" bbl 94AE 7-30 waters I have taken deer,goats,pigs,and many escaped exotics(from neighbors ranch) at 300 yds.I have a Browning mod 92 20in. 357 mag that I have taken deer,foxes,rabbits,coyote,bob cat,raccoon,pigs,stray dogs,domestic cats,and rats out to 125 yards.
I was raised on a ranch in west Texas where low life's dump their pets.There is no animal control to call.Dogs pack up,and drag down calves.Cats go wild,and kill game birds for fun which they do not eat.It's not fun,and no one liked having to do it.We couldn't afford not to.I had my first gun the year before pre-school.It was my"job" to kill varmints like Jackrabbits daily.10 jacks can eat as much grass in a day as 1 head of cattle. During certain years I was paid .01 cent for 2 sets of ears at the feed store.The money came from the Cattleman's Assoc.I could only make money if I didn't miss.At a later date,I used the wagon to haul them back to the house whole to freeze them. We took them out to cut them into pieces to feed the dogs.
10-4 brother.....some of us know what you speak of..,.SL

[clownbear69]

Its funny if you asked one of the people I was talking to he said he can get an accurate shot with his .30-30 out to a 1000 yards. then again he also said his .50bmg accurately will hit anything at 15 miles.

Realistically with a 170gr id say 150, 200 yards with a lil Kentucky windage, might be able to get 150 out a bit more but not much and at its distance you'd loose KE

[220]

I've taken a few deer at close to 200y with my scope sighted 336,
Using leverevolution factory loads or FTX reloads it will put 3 shots into 1" @ 100y, with either of these drop is such that to a bit past 200y I don't need to allow for drop. I have shot a few groups on paper at 300, groups were around 4" and drop about 14".
Given a steady rest and an accurate range estimation I would be confident taking a shot at 300.

[GaCop]

My hand load using IMR4064 pushing a Speer 170gr FN will give me 4.55" groups at 200 yards and right at an inch at 100.

[possom813]

If it adds anything or not to the thread, I don't know, or care :kidding:

But I took a hog this past Monday at 163 paces.

Marlin 336
Nikon 4x32 Scope
150gr Remington Core-Lokt(I inherited a lot of the core-lokt when my dad passed)

I figure on the terrain that I was walking(mostly flat) that 163 paces would fall around 150-160 yards. Hog was DRT, no attempt to run.

[Lonegun1894]

Quit pulling our legs! We all know a lowly .30-30 won't knock a hog in the dirt. :kidding: So when's the BBQ? Nice shooting, and congrats.

[possom813]

Gave the hog to the neighbors, my freezer's currently 'almost' completely full. There's just a small space for a whitetail(if I ever see one this year :D)

[Lonegun1894]

My money is on you getting one if you see it with that rifle in hand. Best of luck.

[snaketail]

I didn't real all 7 pages of this thread - but the .30-30 is on the same power level as 7.62x39 (AK47 round). Works very well on hogs. We use 'em in 200 yard silhouette matches. Lever guns are less accurate than breach loaders that have a solid lock up (bolt actions, rolling blocks, falling blocks, etc.).
A good lever gun should group about 2" at 200 yards. Average lever guns will group around 6" at 200 yards - varies with the load, the sight, the shooter and all the other variables.
Buckhorn sight - good luck hitting the general area twice at 200 yards
Tang and Receiver sights - should give you a nice tight group at 200 yards
9 power scope with fine crosshairs - 2" groups at 200 yards
Red dot sight - good for that charging hog at 20 yards

[GabbyM]

one of my pet peeve myths.
Just one thing snaketail. The 7.62 x 39mm falls way short of matching 30-30 energy. Especially now with LeveRevolution powder to use. Lots of fans of the 7.62x39 like to think they have a semi auto 30-30. But that doesn't make it true. Like 300 Blackout fans claiming 30-30 or 7.62x39 power. When they can shoot a 200 grain boolit at 2,100 fps. Or a 165gr FTX at 2,389 fps. They can come tell us how that's done. In the mean time. Fact is according to the math of people who claim 7.62 is equal to 30-30 power. That makes a 30-30 the equal to a 308 Win. Since a 30-30 will shoot a 165gr as fast as a 308 will shoot a 200 gain bullet. That makes them equal , right.

[300savage]

oh now gabby why would you let a little truth get in the way of some folks fantasy ?
the little soviet is a good killer, but a 30-30 it aint.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Years ago we were shooting a 30-30, older Marlin or Winchester not sure but boy o boy. I have only shot two maybe three guns that shot that good 3 shot group touching, at 100 yds. One 760 Rem load 180 round nose, other H-K 308 , another 30-06 years ago. Now at same time we shot two other 30-30 they group same load 1.5" to 2" group.

[Valerko]

That kind of "killed "my interest in 30-30. :)

[w5pv]

I have put trail dogs on more wounded deer that where shot with a thutty-thutty more than any other gun.They could get a lots of blood but no meat.Most were probably shot more than 150 yards

[GabbyM]

I have put trail dogs on more wounded deer that where shot with a thutty-thutty more than any other gun.They could get a lots of blood but no meat.Most were probably shot more than 150 yards

That may be because the 30-30 is so common. Thus poor hunters have easy aces to them.
Here in Illinois where we can only use shotguns, hand guns or MZ. Most hunters think a Forester slug is a 150 yard round when it is in reality a fifty yard round at best. That is just ignorance and has no effect on the value of a 12 gage shotgun. Only the perceived effect of such tool. After all many people seam to think it's a good idea to drive a Toyota 90 mph down the road. Does that make a Toyota a bad car?

[Outpost75]

One of the best threads of mental masturbation I've seen....

A few rational and reasoned comments punctuated by a whole wheelbarrow load of manure....

With iron sights most. 30-30 leverguns are no better than 3 moa rifles. Magic Gummy Bear Ammo doesn't change the basic facts. That means 150 yards for clean kills on deer, 200 yards for anti-personnel, was typical for rural lawmen in the days before Evil Black Rifles. The late LTC Ellis Lea, USAID Office of Public Safety, who ran our training section in Latin America would agree.

Read Ed Harris's article on the .30-30. http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/85421-%93appalachian-assault-rifle%94.html

[Nrut]

One of the best threads of mental masturbation I've seen....

A few rational and reasoned comments punctuated by a whole wheelbarrow load of manure....

With iron sights most. 30-30 leverguns are no better than 3 moa rifles. Magic Gummy Bear Ammo doesn't change the basic facts. That means 150 yards for clean kills on deer, 200 yards for anti-personnel, was typical for rural lawmen in the days before Evil Black Rifles. The late LTC Ellis Lea, USAID Office of Public Safety, who ran our training section in Latin America would agree.

Read Ed Harris's article on the .30-30. http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/powder-keg/85421-%93appalachian-assault-rifle%94.html
Really??
Only one wheelbarrow load?

[Brithunter]

My problem with this question is that the rifle was not specified only the cartridge. Now my own 30-30 I would have no qualms about shooting deer the same distances as with a .308 Win chambered rifle. This is MY 30-30 rifle:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/5677742.jpg

and a Muntjac Doe taken with it. Load was the Hornady 130 Grn Spire Point loaded to just over 2800 fps.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/15751644.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/15752310.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/15751859.jpg

With some factory Winchester ammunition in the magazine.

This is how she shoots if I do my part:-

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/36532858.jpg

only a three shot group I'll admit.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/1350773/15754172.jpg

Sighting in a slight load variation and yes I adjusted the scope the wrong way :( the adjustments are in German as it's a Schmidt & Bender scope and I don't read German so got the H&T mixed up.

So remaining energy is going to be the limiting factor here but 300 yards should be no problem ........................ don't you agree?

OK it's not quite your usual 30-30 rifle but it IS still a 30-30 :mrgreen: .

[RPRNY]

Boo yah! Brithunter, what a fabulous rifle! Best 30-30 ever.

[johntkd]

ok i use a marlin 336c rifle i bought brand new in 1985, originally i installed a 3x9 bushnell bdc,range finding scope,with the see thru mounts,rifle sighted at 135 yards ( measured) hits 1 inch low at 225 yards, 1/4 high at 100, 3/8 inch high at 50, sitting on a side of a hill using my knee for a brace i have elongated holes at 200 yards, taking into effect was not bench rested just as i would be in the woods hunting it sounds real impressive but there is always human movements my normal 3 shot groups at 225 yards will be covered by a quarter, now this is remington 170 grain coreloct ammo i was using. i just got done loading up my first cast 170 gr flat nose for this rifle this evening and am hoping to get similar results but not fully expecting it.
P.S. sitting on my hill in lake county I have taken many many many deer ( dozens) at 250 yards with neck shots the bullet always goes thru and leaves a extremely large exit wound, my normal hill i hunt on there are a few places i could have taken 300 yard shots and had more then one opportunity to do so but passed as I have never fired the weapon at that range,
this will sound strnage but i believe the reason the bullets are hitting so close at all the ranges is because of the see thru scope mount and where its sighted in at, making an X from line of bore and line of sight that actually helps cause the extra needed elevation to make the bullet hit if i didnt have the see thru mount i am positive i would be needing to do holdovers to get results even close to what i see....I have no doubt if i hit a deer at 300 i will blow right thru it leaving a large exit hole....

[johntkd]

ill put a 30/30 against any other rifle for shear obnoxious slamming down of deer at 200 yards or less its brutal on deer, my 30-06 dont put half the hole in a deer till it gets 150 yards or better most time the exit hole is just a smidge bigger than the 30 cal entrance hole, I have harvested a lot of deer in my day most with a 30/30 and it never ever fails to knock a deer at least 4 to 6 feet off to the side slamming them down,one deer got back up after i hit it and had to put a 2nd round into it but upon inspection i had gone through a 4 inch oak tree and hit behind my point of aim almost but not quite a paunch hit. that bullet split apart and was the only bullet i have ever found inside an animal i have shot one part of the bullet hit the hind quarter and was stopped at the spine the other part just in front of the paunch and the pieces of bullet still blew that deer down and 3 feet off to the side of his running path..

[hpdrifter]

can't top that.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The title of this tread is about shooting long range targets with the 30/30 ~ Like out to 800+ yards with iron sights from an accurate single shot rifle.

Everyone knows the 30/30 is the primo short-range hunting rifle of all - the idea here is to push the envelope - take the 30 WCF out on the long-range cast bullet firing line and see how it does there!

Forrest

[birch]

Johntkd--I live one county over--Osceola. In fact, I grew up about a mile on the Dewings Corner side of Lakola road.

[pme166]

http://eickpm.com/picts/94_target1.jpg

50 shots off the bench, 100 yrds. I figure with my 30/30 I am happy I can hit what I want out to 100 yrds easily. If I were after a deer, I might stretch it to 150 yrds but my eyes start giving out before the gun does. Open buckhorn style sights (for me) are hard to work well with much beyond a 100 yrds.

[RJH]

I knocked a doe over at about 150 yards with a Ted Williams 100 when I was about 11 years old. I was using a Williams receiver sight, and it did the job. I'd say 300 yards is about it, and you would have to spend a lot of time with your rifle at distance.

[TXGunNut]

can't top that.

Wouldn't even try.

[lar45]

A few years ago, I was at the Linebaugh seminar in Cody. I brought my son and one of his friends along for the trip. The friend brought a Savage 340 in 30-30 that had a 3x9 whatever scope on it.
Anyway, the range we were at has a big Steel Buffalo target at around 1000 yds. When shooting from a bench, I put the bottom of the crosshair on the Buff and could hit it everytime. We were shooting his Dad's reloads with a 125gn Spitzer of I don't remember the brand.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The title of this tread is about shooting long range targets with the 30/30 ~ Like out to 800+ yards with iron sights. ~ A good receiver or tang sight with perhaps a Lyman 17A or MVA spirit-level sight on the front.

You pick the action: Bolt gun, single-shot - of various designs - lever as in Winchester, Marlin, Savage .. anything at all but NO jacketed loads need apply!

~ This is the Cast Booit site after all.

Forrest

[Don McDowell]

Must be the Zombie thread,,, approaching 3 years old...

[GabbyM]

Must be the Zombie thread,,, approaching 3 years old...

Just more proof the 30-30 will never die.

[Blackwater]

Interestingly, a friend of mine once had a 16" barreled Marlin in .30/30 that he loved for way back in the woods hunting where he knew shots would be short. He shot a lot of deer with that old gun, and he shot it a lot, even at distances he never intended to shoot, really. However, one day he saw a really nice buck that was just a tad over 300 yds., and he'd been shooting at that distance a good bit lately, so he couldn't resist. Sure enough, he got that deer, but it ran 50-75 yds. after the shot despite being hit very well. On dressing it out, he found the bullet and it hadn't expanded much at all. Can't recall just which bullet it was, but most .30/30 bullets are pretty darn close in jacket thickness & performance, so I'd have to put the max. limit for the .30/30 on deer at 250. Those blunt bullets slow down pretty fast, and without speed, the bullets won't expand. At really long range on paper or steel, however, the only real limit is the shooter's skill ... or luck. If you've ever shot a .22 LR at ridiculous distances, you understand. It's amazing what some holdover can do, and how fast it can be guesstimated.

[FAsmus]

Blackwater;

So - how far do you shoot the 22RF?

We have a RF course of fire here that goes out to 410 yards. ~ Cross-stick rest, iron sights.

I don't know if this a 'ridiculous' distance but it sure lets you know a thing or two about wind drift.

Forrest

[Clay M]

The old .30/30 will always remain one of my favorites .. My father bought a repossessed Marlin 336 at the local hardware store for $60 back in 70..It was for me.. It was all I had.. It never let me down..
I am very confident with that rifle.I learned to shoot it well..
I remember he brought it home one night out of the blue, wrapped in the hardware store paper.Wow ..my own deer rifle. I still remember the joy of that day 45 years ago.
Things have change for me some over the years..The .308 win is my darling now.I was walking with my son today and looking at the the 600yd shooting range.. The challenge is what you want it to be..

[Blackwater]

FAsmus, I've almost always shot long distance in plowed fields or over water, so I can spot the misses. And yes, the misses far outnumber the hits, but it's amazing how rapidly one can at least threaten far off targets with slower, speed of sound type ctgs. I think that's at least part of what made me get a BPCR. My 1885 Browning is one of the most fun to shoot guns I have, and it's never fired a smokeless round in it. One CAN, if he's crazy enough, learn to love the smell of sulphur! One never really knows what the limits are for anything unless and until he challenges "common knowledge," and finds the limits for himself. Sometimes "common knowledge" isn't very common, but sometimes, it's not even "knowledge" either. Funny how that works, ain't it? ;^)

[shdwlkr]

Lets see soon I will be trying
22wmr at 600 yards, .223 at 800 yards and .338 at 1200 yards nope none will be true lead bullets but the fun is seeing just how far I can throw a pill and hit something with authority. You need a certain amount of speed to go the distance and lead just doesn't start fast enough sometimes. Might try lead bullets one day
How far with the 30-30 I think depends on barrel length, ability of shooter, wind, etc. Me I think with lead I would stop at 250 yards but then again who knows I will have to think on this one. As some other things come into play like type of powder, charge weight, humidity maybe?

[FAsmus]

Blackwater;

B: I've almost always shot long distance in plowed fields or over water, so I can spot the misses. And yes, the misses far outnumber the hits, but it's amazing how rapidly one can at least threaten far off targets with slower, speed of sound type ctgs.

F: I shoot several different 30 caliber rifles over long range (out to 835 yards) regularly. These are mostly bolt guns with receiver sights and Lyman 17A's up front. The cast bullet loads I shoot are pretty much all 2000 ft/sec or slower - or right in the good working range of the 30 WCF.


B: I think that's at least part of what made me get a BPCR. My 1885 Browning is one of the most fun to shoot guns I have, and it's never fired a smokeless round in it. One CAN, if he's crazy enough, learn to love the smell of sulphur! One never really knows what the limits are for anything unless and until he challenges "common knowledge," and finds the limits for himself. Sometimes "common knowledge" isn't very common, but sometimes, it's not even "knowledge" either. Funny how that works, ain't it?

F: I own several big-bore singleshots and have used them for many years at the Quigley and the similar 1000 yard Championship. ~ I dislike the elaborate case-cleaning procedures required with black, so I gave up on it long ago.

Forrest

[michaelcj]

Couldn't agree more Fasmus….. Our sagebrush range is comfortably set up at 300yards and the most enjoyment is always the .22rf at the 9" gong and 1lb empty propane cans. As the oldest there, I will admit to "cheating" occasionally with my 1890 .22WRF with Lyman tang sight.

[TCLouis]

FAsmus

Now that is the kind of fun distance shooting I could enjoy.

The more ya do it the easier it becomes from my way distant past experience.

[Tailhunter]

A .30-30 levergun can be exceptionally accurate, particularly for short strings of fire, provided a little work is done to the junk hanging off of the barrel. I've never found the rear locking bolt to be an accuracy disadvantage for practical shooting. My Marlin .30-30 routinely turns in half inch, five shot groups at 100 yard from the bench with a 4X scope, at the high end of medium velocity with cast boolits, but it isn't by accident. My .35 Remington is close behind. It won't keep ten at a time there, though, due to barrel heat. Many leverguns are severely disabled by forearm, band, and mag tube bind.

Gear

i have no reason not to believe you but people spend thousands of dollars to get a long range bolt gun to do that.

[Win94ae]

i have no reason not to believe you but people spend thousands of dollars to get a long range bolt gun to do that.

They "get a long range bolt gun" to load pointy bullets in them.

[Win94ae]

Gentlemen;

The title of this tread is about shooting long range targets with the 30/30 ~ Like out to 800+ yards with iron sights. ~ A good receiver or tang sight with perhaps a Lyman 17A or MVA spirit-level sight on the front.

You pick the action: Bolt gun, single-shot - of various designs - lever as in Winchester, Marlin, Savage .. anything at all but NO jacketed loads need apply!

~ This is the Cast Booit site after all.

Forrest

I've rediscovered the site, and noticed this thread is still active, and no one has tried any more medium range shots with cast bullets... until now.

I had just set-up this rifle with this new front sight, to be able to shoot at 100 yards on my first sight setting. The furthest I had shot it with this setup was 350 yards; one shot, one kill.
Since I haven't tried 500 yards yet, I had to take a sighting shot to see where my highest notch would place me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1K3kTS5kQQ

I was hoping that the sight setup would get me at least to 500 yards, but it looks to be more like 450 yards. It really starts dropping when shooting over 250 yards, (what I usually shoot at.)

It also looks to have entered the transonic range of velocity, as the bullet trace isn't present for the last 75 or so yards.

I'm going to try again tomorrow to see if I can hit the spot with one shot.

[dk17hmr]

I was actually just thinking about this this morning. My LR shooting buddy just chronoed his 18" 308 that we regularly shoot at 1000 yards and it was coming in at 2410fps with a 175gr smk. That's really not a whole lot faster than what a 30-30 could do. I think at my elevation, single loading a 30-30 with 175s, and one of my long range scopes 1000 to 1200 would be doable.

[Win94ae]

I was actually just thinking about this this morning. My LR shooting buddy just chronoed his 18" 308 that we regularly shoot at 1000 yards and it was coming in at 2410fps with a 175gr smk. That's really not a whole lot faster than what a 30-30 could do. I think at my elevation, single loading a 30-30 with 175s, and one of my long range scopes 1000 to 1200 would be doable.

Oh yeah, I think it could be done too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYu7aTdW93o

I don't really like the LeverEvolution powder, because it seems to only like max charge loads, and the loads are a little hotter than I like. But it would get that bullet at that target velocity.

I say, "Go for it!"

[Win94ae]

Today's shot went well; "one shot, one kill!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2fGGU10ukk

I found a more comfortable shooting spot, I was able to take the shot in a more comfortable position.

If I had a sight that had more adjustment I'd take some shots further, but that will have to wait for another day.

[35 shooter]

Win94ae that's some nice iron sight long range shooting. I enjoyed watching it and a couple of the others that popped up after it.

[John Boy]

Accuracy shooting at 1000 yards is another whole ball of wax, and for the gifted shooter, with young eyes, great wind doping qualities, and a bit of luck thrown in.
45-70 with a 535gr bullet and 70grs FFg black powder - globed foresight and a vernier rear - 3 lead splashes in the black, Homer at 1000yds - Ridgway R&P Club...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2902.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2902.jpg.html)

[35 shooter]

John Boy WOW! More super fine iron sight shooting! VERY nice.

[Win94ae]

45-70 with a 535gr bullet and 70grs FFg black powder - globed foresight and a vernier rear - 3 lead splashes in the black, Homer at 1000yds - Ridgway R&P Club...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2902.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2902.jpg.html)

Very cool!
I have wanted a 45-70 just because the transonic effect doesn't effect those larger diameter bullets.
Great shooting!

[Win94ae]

Win94ae that's some nice iron sight long range shooting. I enjoyed watching it and a couple of the others that popped up after it.

Thank you!

[lobogunleather]

The .30-30 has always been a hunting cartridge and will never be a viable choice for target shooting. It is probably possible to set up a bench rest bolt action rifle in .30-30 that would be capable of fine accuracy at extended ranges, but that would not provide a combination suitable for any field use.

I've been shooting and loading for the .30-30's for over 40 years, and raised two sons with Model 94 Winchesters as their first hunting rifles. Realistically, these are capable of taking Colorado mule deer (175-275 lbs) out to 150 yards under optimal conditions, and fully capable of taking Colorado elk (450-650 lbs) out to 100 yards with properly placed shots. We seldom have optimal conditions and shot placement under field conditions on game animals places further limitations on us. A deer in the open, standing still, presenting a broadside shot for a hunter with a good rest and plenty of experience with his rifle and load, call it 150 yards. Deer in brush, deer on the move, hunter shooting offhand, etc, and max effective range is much less.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Just today I was up on the hill-top range with a 30/06 loaded with a HT RCBS 30-200-SIL loaded to around 2000 ft/sec.

This load shoots exceptionally well in this old M70 right on out there but today was the first day I did the whole set of targets with the temperature around 40 - 45 degrees instead of the more usual 60 - 75 +.

Up close; the 350 yard distance, the elevation was pretty close to the warmer temperature setting but the further out I went the more elevation I had to dial in for hits.

By the time I got out to 834 yards I needed a full 8 minutes additional elevation over the 'normal' warm temperature setting to get on target. At 800+ yards that amounts to about 6 feet lower than usual.

This is completely usual and expected since the density altitude difference is about 2500 to 3000 feet. ~ Here at my place the DA is at ground elevation on a 'standard day' is 4000 ft at 41 degrees. At 75 or warmer it'll go to 6000 easily and 7000 on a hot summer day.

For you non-pilots DA is pressure altitude compensated for non-standard temperature.

You guys living down there at sea-level really have a problem at long ranges!

Good evening, FAsmus

[JSnover]

The .30-30 has always been a hunting cartridge and will never be a viable choice for target shooting. It is probably possible to set up a bench rest bolt action rifle in .30-30 that would be capable of fine accuracy at extended ranges, but that would not provide a combination suitable for any field use.

I've been shooting and loading for the .30-30's for over 40 years, and raised two sons with Model 94 Winchesters as their first hunting rifles. Realistically, these are capable of taking Colorado mule deer (175-275 lbs) out to 150 yards under optimal conditions, and fully capable of taking Colorado elk (450-650 lbs) out to 100 yards with properly placed shots. We seldom have optimal conditions and shot placement under field conditions on game animals places further limitations on us. A deer in the open, standing still, presenting a broadside shot for a hunter with a good rest and plenty of experience with his rifle and load, call it 150 yards. Deer in brush, deer on the move, hunter shooting offhand, etc, and max effective range is much less.
Agreed… with a lever action, but it's not the cartridges fault. I friend of mine could routinely shoot 4" @ 200 yards offhand with a falling block (I can't remember the make/model).

[Lonegun1894]

I don't think it's even a matter of the lever-action being the limiting factor. This is a matter of putting together a good rifle, with good ammo, and a good shooter, all in one place and time. I mean, the lever-action hasn't had the benefit of as much fine-tuning and experimentation by so many people over the years as the bolt-action has, so of course the average out of the box bolt gun will outshoot the average out of the box lever gun. Now take a good lever-action with all the proper dimensions, and do all the "tricks" that are done to bolt guns, give it the benefit of having the same exact sight system on both the bolt and the lever, along with making both the same caliber, and put the same effort into load work-up, and tell me that they aren't VERY close in performance. All this is very doable, but it takes gunsmithing skills and effort that just isn't put into most lever-action rifles because of exactly the attitude shown above because most shooters are willing to accept mediocre accuracy out of their lever-guns because all our lives we have been told that they're just barely good enough for close range hunting, but not for much of anything else.

[Hick]

Not sure about 170 grain. I can hit large (18") targets at 400 with a 150 FMJ/BT-- but I'm not sure anyone would really call that "accuracy". If I had to do it to eat I wouldn't try more than 200 yards

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I once re-barreled my old M70 to 30 Herret LN. (The short Herrett case left with a standard 30/30 neck length)

You see I had a FBW (Falling Block Works) single shot chambered for this round and it did so well that I figured a bolt gun would do well also.

This FBW did good shooting with the 30 Herrett LN in the Scheuzen Matches Coors used to hold in Golden, Colorado.

I turned the rims to fit the M70's bolt face, plugged the magazine slot with a carefully carven piece of wood and went shooting. This combination performed very well. It was easy to cast for and the loads were reliable at the distances I was active in at the time.

As we know the 30 Herrett is limited by its case capacity but, also as we know this approximates what the good old 30/30 does just naturally.

Since then the M70 has been rechambered back to the old rimless 30'06. I load this rifle with the typical reduced loads for the 30'06 with IMR 4759 and 180 - 200 grain bullets. These shoot very well as witnessed by thousands of other shooters.

With the comparable load of 21 grains Re7 under the LEE C308-200-R, iron sights, I was easily able to shoot over our 800-yard course of fire here in town: "Zero" was set at 100 yards on the sight, 395 yards was +9' and progressed up from there through 9 targets to +44' at 670 yards and at 835 yards to +64 to +66'.

This velocity, as you can see is easily within the capability of the lowly 30/30 - all you need is a reliable, consistent load that shoots into at least 5x1.500 @ 100 yards. This is also well within the capabilities of a 'tuned' 30/30.

I have a 'tuned' Marlin M1895 rebarreled to 40/65 that shoots well enough to come in 1st Lever Rifle at Quigley several times. - I know that lever guns will do the trick! (30/30 does not qualify at Quigley, where a fellow must have at least a 375 bore size.

Forrest

[45-70 Chevroner]

Not sure about 170 grain. I can hit large (18") targets at 400 with a 150 FMJ/BT-- but I'm not sure anyone would really call that "accuracy". If I had to do it to eat I wouldn't try more than 200 yards
Welcome to the group and the insanity Hick, by the way your shooting is pretty darn good. Now just start working up a load with a cast 150 grainer and duplicate that, that's the fun of this web sight.

[45-70 Chevroner]

The OP has gotten a lot of milage out of this thread, but it's been a good one.

[Jedman]

Im not sure I believe this ? https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=youtube+jerry+miculek&fr=yfp-t-900&fr2=p%3Afp%2Cm%3Asb&hspart=att&hsimp=yhs-att_001&type=att_pc_homerun_portal

Jedman

Well the whole link didnt post , but watch the video about the 1000 yard shot with the 9mm revolver

[P Flados]

I don't think it's even a matter of the lever-action being the limiting factor. This is a matter of putting together a good rifle, with good ammo, and a good shooter, all in one place and time. I mean, the lever-action hasn't had the benefit of as much fine-tuning and experimentation by so many people over the years as the bolt-action has, so of course the average out of the box bolt gun will outshoot the average out of the box lever gun. Now take a good lever-action with all the proper dimensions, and do all the "tricks" that are done to bolt guns, give it the benefit of having the same exact sight system on both the bolt and the lever, along with making both the same caliber, and put the same effort into load work-up, and tell me that they aren't VERY close in performance. All this is very doable, but it takes gunsmithing skills and effort that just isn't put into most lever-action rifles because of exactly the attitude shown above because most shooters are willing to accept mediocre accuracy out of their lever-guns because all our lives we have been told that they're just barely good enough for close range hunting, but not for much of anything else.

I will heartily testify that "lever" does not necessarily mean poor performance.

When I first started shooting (in my teens back in the 70's), my dad was not an active hunter or shooter but he did have some guns that I took possession of.

I took his 03A3 (it was an advertised "bargain gun" made up in the 60's from surplus parts & pieces), put it in a sporter stock (that I had to finish) & put a 3 x 9 scope on it. I was proud of the performance, close to 1 MOA. This kind of spoiled me as far as expectations.

His other rifle (a gift from his "old" at the time uncle) was one that even back then, I knew better than "messing with". It was a Winchester Model 94 in 32-40 with the long octagon barrel. I eventually found some RCBS dies, converted a bunch of 30-30s and loaded 170 gr flat point J words. Took available load data and had no problems working up to top listed loads. I did not expect good shooting due to some serious bore pitting. However, even with the pitting and the Buckhorn open sights, I found I could reliably nail Coke cans at 100 yards.

I had all the confidence in the world with that model 94. I took it deer hunting a few times, but never even had a chance to point it at any game.

Even though the bore was very rough, it was a solid made gun with a long heavy barrel. I lament that I no longer posses either of the above. However, they are still "in the family" (my sister's boys will get them).

[Dthunter]

Not sure why there is Two "200" yard choices to vote from. I am assuming the second one was intended for "300"?

accuracy is one thing to hit a target. But at what distance is the resulting killing potential past the point of consistant mortal wounds?

I personally have shot out to 250-300 yards, but that was on coyotes. Deer, I usually keep my shots on smaller rifles like the 30-30 under 200.

[tdoyka]

i'm guessing in the 150-200 yards range. i used to use my m94 with the thrity-thrity for years, but my only shots at deer where under 50 yards. i did have the oppurtunity to shot AT him(nice 10 point), but he was over 300 yards. i didn't have a laser rangefinder way back then, but he was around 320-330 yards away.

[Griff]

Longest distance I've taken a deer with a .30-30 was 238 yards. Longest distance I've shot at targets was 500 meters. Wouldn't attempt to take that length of shot at game. That was with a 26" octagon mdl 94, globe front sight & tang peep. 150 gr GCFP over 27.5 grains of RE7, Federal cases, WLR primers. 19 hits out of 20 shots. Best group has been ¾" @ 100 yards.

[Blackwater]

Heard a little of a segment on TV recently about Tom Horn, the old west asassin, if you believe the usual story about him. He shot the kid who wound up getting him hung with his .30/30 at 300 yds. He and many more like him knew how to shoot, squeeze off a shot, and knew the trajectory of their guns, whatever caliber then tended to be. Standards of "sporting ethics" were non-existent back then, and I suspect those who could do it took deer out to very extended ranges way back then. Today, there's no real need to do that, and most folks can't find a range near enough to get all that great with our guns today. Back then, they just stepped outside their front doors, or rode a little way out of town, and opened up at whatever looked like it needed shooting and provided a little challenge in range and size. That make it easier to learn back then, but it's still doable today if we really want to learn how. Most simply won't devote any real effort toward getting to where they can do things like that, with the obviously predictable results. We just don't value marksmanship like we once did. It was once a source of pride to be good with a gun. Today, it's almost considered an embarassment to stand out in any sort of way. I think that's sad, but I seem to be an anachronism today.

[FAsmus]

Blackwater;

I grew up next to the "Mountain View" cemetery Boulder, Colorado.

As a boy I used to walk around reading the gravestones. One day, right there on the very southern edge of the place I found one marked "Tom Horn" and the dates of his birth & death. I do not remember if they were correct but ball-park I think they were.

Forrest

[David LaPell]

If you have ever read the story of Tom Horn, who was an Army scout turned Pinkerton man turned hired gun, it really amazed me of what he was capable of and he used nothing more than a Winchester Model 1894 rifle in .30-30. I have seen a picture of his gun and it was a 26 inch round barrel with a button mag and all he used were open sights. Horn was killing his victims at 200 plus yards and I believe up to 300 yards with that rifle. I just looked up some details on when Tom Horn killed one cattle rustler and a coroners juryman paced off where the shot was fired and it ended up as 196 paces and Horn was carrying his .30-30.
As far as hunting, my grandfather many moons ago shot a whitetail with his .30-30 at what he described to me was "pretty far" and since my grandfather used to compete with a handgun and rifle in his younger days, he knew how to shoot and shoot well. When I asked him he said it was about 250 yards or better. He admitted he wouldn't have taken the shot normally but it was when he was younger and meat was scarce and money was even more so. This was also a gun he was intimately familiar with, he carried the same Model 1894 Winchester saddle ring carbine from 1936 to 1993 when he quit hunting, my cousin has it now. It did have a Lyman tang and my grandfather told me he flipped the sight up, and when he saw the deer it was on the far end of a field with a couple others and he went for the biggest one. He told me he knew to aim for the top of the back. He crossed the field and the deer was dead on the spot. He did tell me that he attributed the shot to as much luck as skill, but it was factory ammo, he swore by 170 grain bullets.
I have heard many say the .30-30 is good out to 200 yards with accuracy, I know with good handloads and some skill it will get there but it's not in a hurry at around 2,000 fps. That's what I would limit my shots to unless I could get consistent with it and actually practice enough to know different, still, I would probably keep it to 250 at best but only if I had actually been on a range and know exactly where to put that bullet.

[TCLouis]

I did not look at every page to see if this is mentioned, but if you are ever over on youtube, look for pages with the name Whitspurzon.

They shoot several Old Timers in 30-30 and light loads WAY on out there.

For whatever reasons 38-55 seems to outnumber 30-30s but the 30 cals are well represented.


I would love the cartridge chambered in a low or highwall for my personal possession.

Mine is a lowly 14" Contender and I did not have a long distance range available to me, but that has changed recently.

Now to clean that coated bullet fouling out and send some real Boolits down the tube

[FAsmus]

David;

Somewhere way down on this thread I told something about Tom Horn - who is buried just across the street from where I was raised.

By the way - This thread was started a long time ago with the question about long range with the 30/30 CARTRIDGE - not necessarily the M94 lever gun at all!

I chambered the 30/30 into target-grade single-shot actions and even modified my M70 to shoot 30/30 at one time. ~ The crazy old case shoots wonderfully well right on out there to 835 yards, cast bullets, iron sights only! (the furthest our range has to offer).

Forrest

[Tackleberry41]

With the 30-30 your usually pretty limited with factory stuff. I was shooting my old stevens bolt gun this weekend. Im a little less restricted on what I can feed it one at a time. I fired some factory remington core lokt 150gr over my chrony, just to know how fast it runs. 2264 was avg velocity from 3 shots. That bullet is not very aerodynamic so would run out of steam pretty quick. Now using the Lever revolution powder you can get a bit more out of it, 37gr got a 150gr up to 2506, that 230fps would make a difference. And I was loading Hornady Amax in it so would expect a bit more range out of it. I have a nice mildot scope on it and a range finder so hitting at longer range would be less of a challenge. It grouped very well with those amax. I was getting 2313fps out of some 168gr amax using lever revolution.

A 308 is considered a sniper rifle out to 1000yds. Yea in the book you might get 2600fps out of a 168gr bullet, but more realistic is 2500fps. So not outside the realm of reality to get a handloaded 150gr 30-30 to go 6 or 700.

[FAsmus]

Tackleberry;

Not 30/30 but since you're talking velocity consider this: I was out this morning with a 8x57 Mauser loaded with the 190 grain SAECO 62081 & 21 grains 4759. This clocks around 1850, tops.

With iron sighs I worked our targets from 350 out to 835 with ease - except when I miss-judged the wind.

The 30/30 will do this kind of thing as well with a typical bullet such as the RCBS 30-180-SP or similar design.

Forrest

[bbailey7821]

Since I've upgraded my old Marlin 336 to a modern Leopold VX3 10x and Hornady Flex Tips, the old girl has absolutely no trouble ringing the bell well out past 200yds. I would've not believed this a couple of years ago, but several DRT whitetails and many benchrest sessions don't lie.

[Chev. William]

A Ballistics Calculator Program using a Laupa 170 grain FMJBT (8476) in a 30-30 at 2000fpsa MV
Calculates the bullet will pass down through the Speed of sound at about 900 yards and be able to strike a Target at 1500 Yards descending at about 915fps. The Midrange Height calculates to 676.4 inches at about 850 yards. Departure Angle calculates to be 129.8 MOA or 2.163 degrees. The bullet would still be going over 800fps at 2000 yards but would drop an additional 1684.8 inches below the 1500 yard zero.
Energy at 1500 yards would be about 316 ft-lbs and at 2000 yards would be about 248 ft-lbs.
Energy drops below 1000 ft-lbs at about 300 yards.
A bit over 3.6 seconds to 1500 yards and about 5.3 seconds to 2000 yards.

I guess Punching paper out there is feasible with this bullet and it might even Kill something out at that range IF a solid Hit were made. How Ethical a Kill depends on Where it hit.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[bbailey7821]

That's some pretty long-hair cyphering, there, Chev! For my paper punching, I'm 1/2" high at 100, 2" high at 200, and just a smidge low at 250. That's about all I'm willing to sign up for with Old Bessy. But, I'm good with it.

[Chev. William]

I chose 1500 yards to enter for the target distance because I read about Army tests of the 45-70 that found it could still hit a target at that distance consistently, with the Bullets passing through the Double wall target at about 70 degrees Down angle to the Horizontal.

It seems this "30-30" is doing about the same Angle at 2000 yards.

Chev. William

[BAGTIC]

How far will a 30-30 shoot accurately? Far enough.

The real problem is range estimation. If the range is known precisely enough, the sights sufficiently and accurately adjustable, the shooter knowledgeable enough about the trajectory of the specific load in the specific gun enough a lot of things are possible.

Also they fact that something has been accomplished once means little. What matters is how consistently it can be accomplished. That is where shooting (targets) and hunting (game) comes in. Shooters usually know the precise range adjusted for slope, and wind conditions at the firing location and the target location. If they miss nothing suffers except their ego. In ethical hunting it is different.

Are we confident enough to put our pink slip or home deed on the line?

[Chief]

maybe, shooting game at long ranges is a measure of bad hunting skills...:-D[smilie=1:
I am working on getting a 1950 vintage mod 94 to shoot cast bullets, I'm working at 50 yards(so far its good enuf to kill a beer can at 100) but when I have my loads worked I think 100 yds will be the limit as I will use other rifles on open range hunts. Further than that not sure I can shoot good enuf with open sights at anything other than inanimate targets...200yds at a 50# steel ram sounds like fun..offhand of course...

[Connelly47]

My dad taught me that if I couldn't get a sub 100 yard shot I wasn't meant to take that shot. He was a Marine sniper so he had the patience and magic to get very close shots. I wouldn't try anything over 200 yds if it was hunting. Playing around, I've found I couldn't hold a paper plate group over 500 yards. I think that's where the bullet drops to subsonic and the pressure wave changes.
As a teenager, my dad taught me how to reload and cast. We had rabbit loads, deer loads and elk loads in .30-30. If you hit a rabbit with an elk load there wasn't anything left to eat.

[Black Powder Bill]

A whole lot of people could be seperated from their money on this question.......:mrgreen:
A few have! LOL

I have no issues taking a 200 yard shot at a deer . Scoped 336

[Kosh75287]

About 175 yards, depending on the shooter.

[Texas by God]

A 788 with scope & pointed jacketed bullets- 300yds on game.
Every Marlin I've owned with a scope-200 yds on game.
My 94 Win with peep sight-100 yds or less on game.
These would be my limits for the 30-30.
target shooting would be wherever my skills let me go.

[Dave18]

we were at some ranch for a hunt, I was old enough to just remember the event, don't even know what state it was, but, one of the guys there every day, would stand by the corner of some old building and shoot at the side of one the rocky hills that had a spot that stuck out, this guy bragged about hitting that spot on that hill side once a day, everyday, the distance 380yds I remember everyone saying, I remember the guy giving me the empty case , a 3030,
wish I could ask, about where the place was ect, but, everyone is long gone, Im the only one left of that group that went out there many yrs ago,

[marlin39a]

100 yrs. 30/30 win. Drops like a rock after that.

[versa-06]

Been burn'n a lot of powder tinkering with mid to high vel. 243 & my Leupold scope went south, and took my nerves with it! Picked up on this thread and decided I'd go back to the 30 cal. and the slower & more rewarding pace. I'm GLAD! this thread hasn't been dropped, It's pushing me to stretch out my 30-30 capaboolities! So keep writing about your findings and experiences! Jim

[OlDeuce]

the 100yd to 150 yd is my deer zone .But 850yds on the Buffalo works for the hit!!!

Ol Deuce

[bisleyfan41]

My dad taught me that if I couldn't get a sub 100 yard shot I wasn't meant to take that shot. He was a Marine sniper so he had the patience and magic to get very close shots. I wouldn't try anything over 200 yds if it was hunting. Playing around, I've found I couldn't hold a paper plate group over 500 yards. I think that's where the bullet drops to subsonic and the pressure wave changes.
As a teenager, my dad taught me how to reload and cast. We had rabbit loads, deer loads and elk loads in .30-30. If you hit a rabbit with an elk load there wasn't anything left to eat.

Great post! Your 3 levels of loads shows the amazing versatility of the old .30-30. Shot a fox at 150 once with my 94, but all her deer have been under 100, most under 50.

[OlDeuce]

Us older guys had some good upbringing........Hunting was our way of life and my Dad always said " antler soup isn't good" We never trophy hunted !
always the close shot !! I'm Pleased in the Department of hunting & Firearms !!!!! Love my Guns!!

Ol Deuce

[T.R.]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/30-30target-1.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/user/rushmoreman/media/30-30target-1.jpg.html)

My older Glenfield has taken several mulies for me at ranges well beyond 100 yards.

TR

[David LaPell]

Well, I can honestly say 300 yards if we're talking game animals. Not myself personally, but my grandfather did it on a whitetail doe once, one shot. Now, you have to keep in mind he only really hunted with two deer rifles in his whole life not counting muzzleloaders, a Winchester 1894 SRC with a tang sight and a Remington 660 .308. I have a photo from 1936 with the .30-30 and a deer, and he quit using that gun in 1993 when he stopped deer hunting.
I have seen photos with him and that gun with rabbits, grouse, etc. He killed ALOT of game with that gun.
When he shot the deer, it was open ground and she was slowly walking from right to left, he flipped the tang up and held the front sight on top of her back above the vitals. When he shot, she went down on the spot.
My grandfather was also a competitive shooter at one time and knew his guns, what they could do and what they could not. I personally would not attempt that shot, but he knew the gun and what it would do.
I got this Model 94 recently and have been playing around with it, it's more accurate than the last couple of Winchesters I had and beats the last Marlin I had hands down when it comes to accuracy, using these same loads. This was at 125 yards, I think 200 yards would be the longest I would stretch this too. I do plan on adding a tang sight to it later on.
https://i.imgur.com/4y6kQih.jpg?1

[Texas by God]

That's a nice honest 94 there and that sling is badash.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Sig556r]

FN CBs for straight-tubed mags not as efficient as spire points beyond 200yds

[Texas by God]

FN CBs for straight-tubed mags not as efficient as spire points beyond 200ydsThe spire point makes an efficient firing pin in a tube magazine[emoji853]

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[EDG]

Everyone knows a .30-30 is hopeless past 25 yards.
But it is OK to shoot deer with a 300 mag out to ranges where it has the energy of a .30 carbine :) :kidding:

[frankmako]

I shoot nra lever action silhouette matches and in the big bore game I use a 30-30. I hit the 200 meter rams with no problems. We shoot standing, unsupported with open sights on the clock.

[Hutch556]

I have a couple scoped Marlin 336’s and have no problem taking a 200-300 yard shot if the situation is right to harvest the right animal. Now for target shooting I’m sure it can be pushed Quite a bit further.

[Scott.M]

The poll is flawed. I've done a LOT of shooting at 750 yards with a 30/30 and if you get the dope right, as with anything, you can lay them in there.

[TNsailorman]

As Scott has already stated. It depends on who is shooting and what skill and experience levels they have developed with that cartridge and rifle.

[pls1911]

Accuracy is one thing.... the 30-30 can ring steel at 50 yards with practice and good rifle and proper conditions. However, hunting efficiency range shoul dbe no more that 200 yards, at which point they're fine for small deer with proper placement. [I] limit my shots to more like 100 yards.