30 rem questions

[starmac]

I am not sure which forum I should ask this in, but here goes.
I have some 30 rem brass on the way, but no 30 rem dies.

I have been told that I could get by with 30/30 dies.

I have been told that I can't use 30/30 dies.

I have seen the lee loaders that are for 30/30 and 30 rem, so apparently you can maybe at least neck size????

Has anybody here actually loaded any 30 rem using 30/30 dies.
If so are there any tricks I need to know and how well did it work.

Thanks.

[texassako]

I have not loaded for the .30 Rem yet, but I have the dies to do so and load the .25 and .32 Rem already. They are ballistic equivalents, not identical, but rimless, versions of the Winchester series, and almost every measurement is different. I ran one up into my .30-30 Lee collet neck die with a washer as a spacer, and that can be used to neck size without collapsing the case. It is how I neck size several other obsolete cartridges with various Lee collet pieces.

[starmac]

This is pretty much what I thought. I'm sure you guys with more loading experience could manage this easily, but I will try to find the correct set of dies. lol

[texassako]

Unless you really want a used set, several of the online stores stock the proper .30 Remington dies from RCBS and Redding. I noticed Midsouth stocks a neck size die, might need to pick one of those up myself.

[starmac]

Thanks, I had looked on the rcbs sight, and they were not listed.

[uscra112]

My strong recollection is that the shoulder on the .30 Rem is not in the same place as the shoulder on the .30-30. Can anyone confirm?

[starmac]

They are not in the same place, nor the same angle.
I just won the bid on one of the classic lee loader, that is for 30/30 and 30 rem.
I will at least see what the instructions say. lol

[swheeler]

Look here, http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_reloading.html In Group D 60.45

[starmac]

Look here, http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_reloading.html In Group D 60.45

I never seen the price or where it said they had them in stock. If that 60.45 is the price, it looks like graffs has them beat.

[madsenshooter]

What rifle are you using? I have a 99yr old Remington model 14. The thing is finicky about bullet shape, round noses only, and it appears that about the only cast bullet that won't be damaged in the magazine tube is Lyman's 311440. I have one of the mold's coming.

[swheeler]

I never seen the price or where it said they had them in stock. If that 60.45 is the price, it looks like graffs has them beat.

Yes in stock, 60.45 dies, 7.98 for #19 shellholder, 13.00 shipping

The price is right below the listing, Group D 60.45.

Grafs shows RCBS out of stock, 59.99 but has one set of Redding for 78.00

You can call your order into Huntingtons 1-866-reloads

[starmac]

You are right grafs showed them out of stock, midsouth is where It claimed they had them.
Thanks for the huntington link.

Madsen shooter I just picked up a model 14, I haven't shot it yet. The old gent had several boxes of old western silvertip 170 grain ammo. I am assuming that is what he liked to use. They were all 170 gr.

[Moonie]

Keep in mind that lee loaders only neck size the brass.

[Hurricane]

RCBS lists a set of dies for 30 Remington for $75.95. Just do a search for "30 Remington" on the RCBS site.

[starmac]

Midsouth shows them in stock too. 57.09 for the full length set or 73.91 for the neck sizer set.
I am not sure what their shipping will be.

[madsenshooter]

You are right grafs showed them out of stock, midsouth is where It claimed they had them.
Thanks for the huntington link.

Madsen shooter I just picked up a model 14, I haven't shot it yet. The old gent had several boxes of old western silvertip 170 grain ammo. I am assuming that is what he liked to use. They were all 170 gr.

Had a box of those come with my rifle. They were pretty corroded. Some of them split, in the neck and other places. Some of them wouldn't go off at all, what did fire and didn't split will certainly need annealed. But there were 6 boxes of newer Remington fodder that came with it. I got on this group buy hoping the bullet shape would allow for magazine feeding. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=129155 I single loaded a few other bullet types, the B&M 311169 and an Eagan bullet that sorta resembles the RCBS silly-wet bullet. They tended to wedge on the rim of the cartridge above it in the tube. I think the 311440 will work, but can't say for sure. I got the one with the .303 nose, the model 14s have an odd number of lands and grooves, 7, and experience with a 5R 6mm barrel showed me one needs to fill a tad more than the measured bore diameter.

[starmac]

Three of the boxes that came with it are the yellow boxes and the other one is white (I thinking newer). All the shells look pristine with 0 corrosion, but I think I want to just keep them and not shoot them. I would maybe think differently if brass was rare, or hard to get.

Thanks for the info Madsen. I have not shot it yet, but it is a neat handling rifle. Shooting left handed, I am always watching for things besides bolt actions, plus I just have a thing for the old ones, that I can afford. lol

[robroy]

The flutes in the magazine of the model 14 andmodel141 remingtons keep spire points from contacting primers of the round at which it's pointed. Spitsers are OK in those tube mags.

[starmac]

Will have to see what it likes, but I like the round noses.
It would be nice if I find one that works well in the 30/30s, the 30 and the 300 savage. That would just make everything right in the world. lol

[madsenshooter]

I got some advice from a fellow who works only on 14s and 141s that have been jammed up. He says roundnose only and that Remington sold the 14s with hang tags that said the same, despite the idea behind the magazine tube. He also recommended not using cast bullets. I'm hoping that I've seen what the problem is with them and that the 311440 will take care of it. I cast with harder than normal alloy, BHN23, but just loading a couple in the magazine and trying to work the action had the spire point bullets beat up pretty good. Last tidbit, Remington brass has a slightly larger extractor groove than Winchester and that helps with function. Let's see if I can find that post. http://www.remingtonsociety.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18882 and another similar one: http://www.remingtonsociety.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=19222

I'm the type that when someone says something can't be done, I gotta figure out a way that it can.

[starmac]

I don't intend to use pointy bullets anyway, but I find it interesting that remington switched to the spiraled tube expressly to be able to use them, but then left a hang tag instructing one to use round only.

I suppose it could have been an idea that worked great on an engineers drawing, but with a much different outcome in the real world.

Did ammo manufacturers ever offer spire point ammo in 30 rem???
I find it hard to believe that none of the old timers in the model 14s heyday used cast boolits too.

Do these guns have a reputation for jamming????

[robroy]

I wish i had my Grandpa's model 14. I got most of his battery but that one went to one of the kids from Clear Creek. The thing about spitsers was lore and not something with which I hade any practical experience.

[robroy]

Sorry this is off point, pun intended, but I did just a couple of weeks ago shoot 150 gr spirepoints in 35 Rem . This was new (or fairly new) factory Remington ammo. There're a half dozen model 14s in 35Rem at a local dealer. Cash and too many other projects keep me from buying one of em.

[madsenshooter]

Not cutting on you robroy, I recall reading the same thing about the spiral tubes, actually bought the rifle with the idea of reloading with the B&M 311169, a spitzer. I'm just repeating what the fellow on the Remington Society board says. If you cycle a few rounds through the action slowly, which is not the way it was intended to be worked, you can see a few spots where things don't work so well. One thing that comes to mind is that the lifter only pushes on the back of the cartridge, and not for long. It has to push the rim up through the extractor and a solid part of the bolt. I think that's why the Remington brass with its larger extractor groove works better. I don't think things are as bad as the fellow on the Remington board is saying, as long as you have the OAL right and a nose that doesn't hang up somewhere. These rifles came through the depression, I'm sure some fellows were loading cast and would want to use the rifle as a repeater, not as a single shot. I'm glad that the brass manufacturers started making more of the 6.8 Rem brass. Those folks were making 30 Rem brass hard to get there for awhile! When I get that 311440 mold, I'll let you all know how it works. Starmac, not much of a reputation for jamming, as long as they're properly fed. I got a couple tangled up with bullets that were seated too long, they barely cleared the magazine tube, and I think the thing is, once jammed, they're not easy to clear. I nearly had to take the rifle apart to get things loose. Hey, it wasn't the Silvertip ammo that split on me, it was some apparently older Super-X. 9 of 20 didn't go bang!

[starmac]

Ok I got ya, I wouldn't be worried at all about shooting the ammo I have. I would rather just keep it (don't ask me why). The story on my rifle was it was the old mans one deer rifle and he harvested quite a few with it.
Out of the four boxes only one is full.

[Bent Ramrod]

Harold MacFarland in Gunsmithing Simplified on the Remington 141:

"...I really preferred it when they called it the Model 14...When they are in good condition they work fine. When they start jamming they are the jammin'est thing ever made. Nine-tenths of these malfunctions come from three causes. These are loose stocks, split stocks and trash jammed in the stock cavity behind the breech block."

Madsenshooter, thanks for the link to the info on the guy who fixes the old Remington pumps. I have a 14-1/2 that is the jamminest thing ever made and could use the services of an expert.

[starmac]

On mine (which I haven't shot) the slide, when it is in the locked position can very easily be moved about an 1/8 inch. When you do this you can see the trigger move a hair.
It will do this empty or locked up with a cartridge in the chamber.

Is this normal????

Another thing I have noticed is the spring pushed the rod, (not sure what it is called) that keeps tension on the shells in the tube a little past the loading gate. You have to use the tip of the first shell to move it forward before you can start loading it. This to me is odd, but I think normal because if it only has one shell in it, it is actually behind the loading gate and it functions fine.???

[0verkill]

I think that's normal, or at least mine does it too. It looks like the follower goes too far into the loading gate but you just push it up with the bullet.
I just checked my Model 14. In the locked position I have just a little wiggle, but nowhere near an eighth of an inch. The trigger did not move at all, I tried with the safety on and off. Someone with much more expertise than me will have to weigh in.

On reloading dies, the shoulder placement and angle are different for the 30-30 Winchester and 30 Remington. The measurements are in the Lyman 3rd edition cast boolit manual, but it only had partial specs. I'm on dial-up and have better luck emailing than posting pics here. If you PM me your email address I'll send you a better pic of measurements.
You'll need a 30 Remington full length size die at least and 30 Remington shellholder of course. It's the same size as the 6.8 SPC so it shouldn't be hard to find. You can use 30-30 seating and crimp dies. It may be cheaper than buying a whole 30 Remington set. The LEE Loader only neck sizes and doesn't touch the shoulder on either cartridge, but after so many firings you'll still have to full length size.
The only jacketed ammo I've put through mine was 2 boxes I found in an old store that were very possibly older than me. After that it's all been cast boolits. I have no idea why someone would suggest not using cast boolits, maybe the old leading and ruining your barrel myth. I've tried Lee's 130gr round nose, 150gr flat nose and 170gr flat nose. I also tried some Missouri (I think) cast bullet company 135gr Whitetail 2 bullets (the whitetail's don't deserve to be called boolits). All functioned when crimped in the crimp groove, the heavier the boolit the better the accuracy, at least in my rifle. I loaded a couple dummies with some Sierra spitzers and could't get them to load at various C.O.L.'s. The bullet always caught between the tube and follower and locked it up. I figure flat nose bullets are much better for the old cartridge anyway.

[starmac]

I think the prices on the dies I found, there was only maybe 12 bucks difference in buying the fl length sizer and the set, so I figure the set is the way to go.
The neck difference is EASY to see when you set a 30/30 next to the 30, so yea even though I had been told you could make 30/30 dies work, it is a no go.
I have some brass coming, but playing with this thing will likely be put off till next spring.

I just checked on the slack in the slide, it is probably closer to 1/16 in. than an 1/8, but you can see movement in the trigger.

[madsenshooter]

My bolt doesn't move any at all, unless I push the release button on the side of the bolt. Sounds like you have one that's a bit worn, something I'd expect of a rifle in your neck of the woods. Might want to ask the fellow on the Remington board about that. Here in Ohio we're limited to shotguns or muzzleloaders for deer, no highpower rifles. We can use them on feral hogs and coyotes though. What I'm trying to say is that rifles here don't get used a lot.

My follower comes back past the loading gate too, normal. You said spitzers were getting caught between the tube and follower Overkill. That's what the Eagan and B&M 311169 did. Hoping the wider flat nose of the 311440 will prevent that. Looks like it ought to. The Eagan is a flatpoint, but the meplat is only .140".

[starmac]

My rifle has definetly seen some use, as the old guy that I bought it from claimed it was the rifle his dad used all his life, mostly in pa though, not in ak.
There is no blueing where the balance point is, it was carried a lot.
The action is very smooth, if I hold it straight up with out a shell in it and mash the button it will automatically slide all the way open.

[madsenshooter]

Pa is a rifle hunting state. Really must've got used a lot, mine won't do anything like that until the bolt drops down about 1/8" and unlatches. Bluing? Just a hint left on my 99yr old, it's mostly silver now, like my used to be brown hair!

[Alan in Vermont]

When I get that 311440 mold, I'll let you all know how it works.

Is that a used mold you found or is somebody actually making a real clone of it? I sold the 4-holer I had, can't use big iron molds with my left arm messed up. I'm debating going to Accurate to see if Tom can make me a non-GC version of it. I cast a bunch ahead before I let the mold go but the way it shoots I may end up going through them faster than I thought I would.

[madsenshooter]

Is that a used mold you found or is somebody actually making a real clone of it? I sold the 4-holer I had, can't use big iron molds with my left arm messed up. I'm debating going to Accurate to see if Tom can make me a non-GC version of it. I cast a bunch ahead before I let the mold go but the way it shoots I may end up going through them faster than I thought I would.

It was a NOE group buy that recently ended, should be in production right soon as the money has been called for. There will be an over-run, so watch for them on NOE's website. http://noebulletmolds.com/orders/catalog/index.php Nothing there as of yet.

[rbuck351]

As was said, the 30/30W dies won't work. I use 30/30 brass to make cases for the 30Rem by cutting off the rim and cutting an extractor groove then sizing in the 30Rem fl sizer. It's a bit of work but I no longer have to worry about loosing brass from my M8 30Rem auto loader.

[starmac]

Rbuck, do you hunt with that m 8. I traded for a m 8 in 30 rem a few years back, but I picked it up for an uncle and never even shot it.

[0verkill]

My rifle has definetly seen some use, as the old guy that I bought it from claimed it was the rifle his dad used all his life, mostly in pa though, not in ak.
There is no blueing where the balance point is, it was carried a lot.
The action is very smooth, if I hold it straight up with out a shell in it and mash the button it will automatically slide all the way open.

I've determined that blue guns with siler recievers are a sign of a good gun. Remington absolutely has made the smoothest pumps of their time. My 760 is a lot smoother than my 14. Not often that a company actually makes something pretty much better all around, stronger and smoother, that packs and points about the same.



My follower comes back past the loading gate too, normal. You said spitzers were getting caught between the tube and follower Overkill. That's what the Eagan and B&M 311169 did. Hoping the wider flat nose of the 311440 will prevent that. Looks like it ought to. The Eagan is a flatpoint, but the meplat is only .140".

Good to know the loading gate thing is normal. Also good to know I'm not the only one to have trouble with spitzers. I heard the spiral magazine holds the cartridges off kilter so the bullet's contacting the primer of the next cartridge. I also heard the spiral slows the follower down, that detonation was caused by all the cartridges wanting to stay forward when the gun recoils backwards. That compresses the follower spring then it slams back at high speed and causes detonation. The second theory sounded a bit convoluted. I personally wonder if the whole spitzer thing wasn't just a myth, or if Remington discovered it didn't work and redesigned the follower to prevent the loading of spitzers.
I'll measure the meplat on my bullets tommorrow, maybe we can establish a minimum meplat that works. Or someone will com along and say I've been doing it wrong and tell us the right way.

[starmac]

The balance and the carry point on the model 14 reminds me of my model 99.
It is nice rounded balanced and just plain comfortable to carry.

[0verkill]

Bullet Meplat
135gr Whitetail II .201
Lee 150gr Flat nose .192
Lee 170gr Flat nose .175

The 130gr roundnose is pretty blunt, I'll try to get pics maybe. Measurements were as good as I could do.

[rbuck351]

Starmac

I hunted with it once when I was 13 or 14 and shot my first deer with it. I have been messing with paper patch bullets in the 30Rem but so far not much luck. I also have a M8 in 35Rem that I hunt with on occasion. Both of these guns have old family stories to go with them to my grand kids when the time comes.

[starmac]

Ah, if only guns could talk. It is nice that yours came from family, where you know some of the stories.