Heavies in the 1911

[Abert Rim]

Anyone have any experience, advice for shooting heavier-than-230-grain slugs in a 1911? I have a real fondness for the Lee 255-grain WFN, and recall having played with a few rounds in a Ballester-Molina a few years back. If I recall right, feeding was a bit sketchy. But I also recall reading an article years ago by a guy in Africa who worked up heavy loads for a 1911 that he considered adequate for game up to warthog size. I would think that with a good-feeding 1911 and heavy springs, it would be possible to develop a reaonable .45 ACP load with plenty of punch.
Bet several of you fellers have already done so.

[BruceB]

On March 23/05, Urny started a thread titled "45 ACP, 255 grains, and Unique".

It appeared right here on the Wheelguns, Pistols and Handcannons forum, and there are a number of experiences related there. Hope you can find it without trouble.

It seems that most of us had decent results.

[NVcurmudgeon]

I had excellent accuracy with a Lyman .45 Colt mould (454190?) in a S&W 1950 Target revolver. The only trouble was that I had to make a VERY HIGH front sight to get sighted in, it looked like a GI P-38 can opener!

[harley45]

I've been using a Mountain Molds copy of the Lyman 452423 alot lately in my 1911s (weighs about 245 gr. out of WW) So far feed and function has been excellent in my three guns. I can reach 850-900 fps with no problems with hs6 and the accuracy is all I'd ever need. This almost duplicates some of the early .45 colt loads which were proven by several on game. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask and I'll try and help. Also AnthonyB has quite a bit of experience with heavy slugs.

[beagle]

Albert...Look up that old thread and you'll find some good data.

I've played with these and you're right, heavies are good in a .45 ACP. I was using a Blackhawk convertible so my data won't help you but I was hitting 1,000 FPS with some of the heavies out of a 5 1/2" barrel and that's not a slouch of a load. TonyB's on leave but maybe he'll pick this up when he gets back and help you out as he worked on it also with his Kimbers.

The 454190 was very good as was the 452400, a 452485 with GC shank removed and a 452490 with the GC shank removed. I've shot both the 452423 and 452424 in a M1911A1 but the seating depth has to be just right or you'll have feeding problems.

A heavy spring is a must for what you're trying to do also./beagle

[harley45]

when I seat my 452423 I do it so the crimp groove is just inside the case. seems to deef in the 1911s pretty well, but I'm also sizing to .451

[David R]

I have shot thousands, maybe tens of thousands of rounds in my 45s. The only thing I found is a stiffer spring batters the gun more because it returns so violently. I recomend any brand of shock buffer to help tame the recoil and hammering from the slide. I have not shot heavies in these guns, nothing larger than 230 grains, mostly 200s. Really hot loads and a heavy spring do make that slide go back and forth with gusto.

I have a 45 colt, so the 260s @ 900fps get shot out of that.

I am curious of the accuracy. I think All 45s are 1 in 16".

[9.3X62AL]

Colt and Colt-based 45 ACP's are 1-16", S&W's usually run 1-18.75", and Rugers are 1-20". All twists seem to work just fine with 185-260 grain boolits, and the Ruger's 1-20" did some VERY good work with Lee 310's for me recently.

[Bret4207]

Abert Rim- Good to see you again. If I recall you're another old Shooters.com refugee. Welcome.

[zeke]

Have tried the Lee 250 rnfp with unigue up to about 850-880 fps from 5 in SA Trophy Match with 18 lb spring. The Lee has a very large meplat and a reduced bullet dia in front of the cannelure. Alot may be dependent on how the chamber is cut, relating to how far out ya can seat the bullet. The reduced diam infront of the cannelure helps with the Lee bullets. The ones tried were seated with the crimp just behind the cannulure. The SA hot very well with these loads, although about 1 1/2 - 2 inches high at 25 yds.

The SA also did extremely well with the standardly available 250 lrnfp, although only the SA would tolerate using the same seating depth as the Lee design. Other pistols without the "ledge" before the rifling needed the bullet seated so it was crimped infront of the cannelure (including Ruger and S@W revolvers in 45 acp). This was possible because the diam of the standard version (when sized down to .452) in front of the cannelure is same as behind the cannelure (crimp groove).

[beagle]

zeke...You may be able to nose first size the front bands on those and get a little more seating length and as a result less pressure which will allow use of heavier loads.

I ran into that problem when shooting long, heavy bullets in the .30 Carbine Blackhawk and resorted to sizing the front band down to .309". This enabled me to use more of the cylinder length, pressure was reduced and I was able to acheive my magic 1200 FPS with a 150 grain bullet.

Now, in an auto, the magazine length will be the determining factor and it may not be possible.

Just a thought./beagle


Have tried the Lee 250 rnfp with unigue up to about 850-880 fps from 5 in SA Trophy Match with 18 lb spring. The Lee has a very large meplat and a reduced bullet dia in front of the cannelure. Alot may be dependent on how the chamber is cut, relating to how far out ya can seat the bullet. The reduced diam infront of the cannelure helps with the Lee bullets. The ones tried were seated with the crimp just behind the cannulure. The SA hot very well with these loads, although about 1 1/2 - 2 inches high at 25 yds.

The SA also did extremely well with the standardly available 250 lrnfp, although only the SA would tolerate using the same seating depth as the Lee design. Other pistols without the "ledge" before the rifling needed the bullet seated so it was crimped infront of the cannelure (including Ruger and S@W revolvers in 45 acp). This was possible because the diam of the standard version (when sized down to .452) in front of the cannelure is same as behind the cannelure (crimp groove).

[Patrick L]

Used to shoot 255gr Bull X SWC's for serious bowling pin work. Good powders were Green Dot and AA#5, also found an old NRA article that recommended Blue Dot, but can't find any current data source that will verify that. I'm sure Unique would be good too, but never tried that combo myself as I recall.

Those short flat nosed bullets fed OK in my gun, but sometimes the last round in a magazine would have migrated forward in recoil and I'd get a failure to feed. I solved the problem by loading one 230 gr LRN into the magazine first, then the rest with the SWCs.

[BerdanIII]

Handloader magazine had an article describing loads using a 305-gr cast bullet in the .45ACP. The author wanted something that would put someone down but not go through several doors, walls or neighbors. 2400 was the powder of choice and m/v was about 660 fps. I bought the magazine for that article alone.

[9.3X62AL]

Abert Rim--welcome back, sir! And Berdan III--a fine nom de plume, and welcome.

305 grainers in a self-loading 45 ACP? Hooyah, THAT's a stopper all right. And I thought my 200 grainers in the 10mm was "all that and a bag of chips".

[AnthonyB]

Abert Rim, sorry I missed this one when I came back from leave. I have shot a few heavies from the 1911 platform, and my experiments are still ongoing. Beagle has been generous in supplying me with a load of boolits I don't have moulds for, and I have purchased the standard 454190, 452423, 452424, and even have some LBT 300 grainers I haven't tried yet. My tests so far come down to a basic question - what are we trying to do with the 45 ACP? I have made the heavies work in three different Colt 1911s, one Kimber, and two Glocks with great reliability. Still, I don't see much the heavies do that an RCBS 45-230CM doesn't do better. I still have penetration tests to go, so reserve the right to change my opinion so fast your wife would be confused, but don't think it likely... Tony

[Larry Gibson]

Abert Rim

The heavies in the .45 ACP is not a new idea. Some have been successful with it. However some ideas reoccur every so often and then fade away. There usually is a reason for it. Back in the mid to late '70s is the last time I recall the use of heavies in the M1911 got a lot of attention. Most were using the Keith 260 SWC and Unique. One problem arose rather quickly. The inside edge of the locking recesses of the slides got peened over quite badly. I personally saw three of them. This had a serious effect on lockup. John Moses Browning designed the timing of the recoil of the M1911 around 200-230 gr bullets. The only solution to the damaged slides were new slides. I tried a few loads but decided I'd stick with 200 gr SWCs. I'm not saying heavies aren't useable in M1911s, as some have had success, just want to advise of potential problems.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

I guess this all goes back to the old hot rod days, that never seems to really go away. Just different applications. More torque = longer stroke, same bore = heavier springs, stronger materials for longevity. More horsepower = same stroke, wider bore = lighter springs, lighter materials will work fine to save weight. Seems to me the ACP is a two gun arrangement for the most part, in keeping with Larry's description of the gun's mechanical engineering intent. Olds 403: 3.4x4.3 versus Pontiac 400: 3.75x4.0 equates to horsepower versus torque. ... felix

[harley45]

I just changed my alloy a bit and the slugs are comming out at about 239 grains. The more I use this Mountain Molds copy of the 452423 the more I am starting to like it. Out of my Kimber and Les Baer it is giving just over an inch at 25yds with my HS6 loading and about 880 fps. I built a box yesterday that holds one gallon freezer bags filled with water for penetration testing and as soon as I get another day off I'll test this boolit agains a 230 gr bd style for penetration. I don't expect to see any real difference but I always wanted a Keith style I could shoot in my 1911.

[Char-Gar]

I have been shooting 452423 (240 grains) out of 1911s for years with no problems. I keep velocity down to 825 fps or so with 4.7/BE. I do keep an 18.5 spring and a recoil buffer in the pistol. I don't think I would want to mess with anything heavier. At this velocity 452423 is very accurate and hits with a great deal of authority.

If I want more horses out of a pistol, I will go to a sixgun. But I have cleanly killed several texas Whitetail with the above load in a 1911 autopistol. It took a mountain lion out of a tree once with no problem and kocked a bunch of porcupines out of trees as well. Javelina went down for the counts as well and I never had a wounded jackrabbit charge me.

[StarMetal]

Well Mr Gibson, that may have happen to the older slides you've seen, but apparently things must have changed. With Colt putting out (and others) a 10mm 1911, Johnny Rowlands 460 Rowland (which is truely a 45 magnum), the 400 Corbon, and others , kind of blows that theory about the lugs not holding up out of the water. I'd have to say the ones you saw peened were of softer steel.The 1911 is one of my favorite pistols and I've done alot of things with them, including shooting them alot!!....and I have no peening of either the barrel or slide lugs with very hot rounds.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

StarMetal

Very well could be, never said not to do it. And as I said some have met with success. The damaged ones I saw back then were Series 70 Colts not old war horses. Abert Rim mentions a Ballister Molina but doesn't say what his 1911 is. I was just throwing out a note of caution of some problems encountered back then. Also, if memory serves me right there were some slight engineering changes to the 1911 for the 10mm, don't remember what all for sure but they had to do with peening of the locking recesses and cracked frames. Like I said, I tried them myself but just didn't find them any better for what I was using the M1911 for than a 200 gr SWC at 1000 fps. My best bullet of the heavies was the Thompson GC bullet, sorry don't remember the #. It had a long tapered nose that better fit the magazine as far as seating went. It weighed 245 gr of WW and shot quite nice in my MKIV Series 70. I think I was pushing it at 825 fps or so. I still use that bullet and a little stiffer load (7.5 gr Unique) in my S&W 1917. Works just fine there.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Larry,

You are quite right. The 10mm Colt did have some "beefing up". One area was I believe a dual recoil spring to absorb some of the recoil. The probably hardened the recesses too, I know I would. In my opinion that is a really hot auto round.

Larry are you back from Iraq now?

Joe

[Petander]

Hello.

I recall one probem with series 80 Colt GC and Lee 255 RF:

It eventually breaks the slide release from inside because the wide,long bullet nose hits it every time while being fed unless the release latch has been filed down in the first place. Take a look and see if that is happening in your pistol.

Also, sometimes I had the same "last round not feeding" -thing. Depends on the throat I guess, my CE works ok but the throat is all different compared to GC.

I broke two slide release latches until I understood the problem. Otherwise it´s a lovely and accurate pin / target load at around 850 fps - buffers do get beaten up pretty fast. Now I´m back to 200 SWC:s most of the time though. No hunting, just IPSC - and too nice guns to ruin, those 255 loads are hard anyway and I shoot a lot... :-|

http://www.petander.com/colts/Duo2.jpg