Thinking about a Big Brother...

[Raygun]

Thinking about a Big Brother...

I don't hunt anymore but it could happen, so I am thinking good to have a "Big Bore Levergun". Back in the day I loved to handload for the 44mag./44 special for my revolvers. I don't have much experience with the 444 Marlin or 45-70. If nothing else, big bores area blast to shoot and fun to handload. I like straight walled cases and carbide dies.

The most powerful levergun I own is a 357 magnum and it is adequate for my needs but I still have the itch for a Big Brother, just because!

I want to go powerful enough to cover any possible hunting in the Lower 48 but mostly for play. I don't want a shoulder buster but a large caliber that is versatile, economical, and fun. Shots over 100 yards are not so much a consideration.

Any suggestions?

[DaveCampbell]

Unless you get a hankerin' for something really big the old .30-30 WCF can't be beat, IMHO. For busting bunnies or just having fun a 165-grain FP boolit over 9.0 grains of Trail Boss will get you 1,200 fps and will pop a cottontail in the eye every time if you do your part. The ol' "thutty-thutty" has taken a boatload of deer and a lot of elk as well. Anything within 200 yards better check its will.

[Raygun]

Unless you get a hankerin' for something really big the old .30-30 WCF can't be beat, IMHO. For busting bunnies or just having fun a 165-grain FP boolit over 9.0 grains of Trail Boss will get you 1,200 fps and will pop a cottontail in the eye every time if you do your part. The ol' "thutty-thutty" has taken a boatload of deer and a lot of elk as well. Anything within 200 yards better check its will.

Yes, my first love....30-30 WFC There was I time, I could not reason why the need for anything more powerful. We were dead eye shots at 100 yards open sights.

However, today I would probably choose the 35 Remington because I handload 38/357 and would want to keep it in the same family..... for simplicity.

Bottom line, I am looking shoot and handload a straight walled cartridge.

[runfiverun]

any possible hunting in the lower 48 means you want a 45/70,500 S&W,348 win, 375 winchester, type rifle.
and possibly the 356/358 win maybe... if you aren't including the grizzly.

[hornsurgeon]

i love my 1895 45/70. and it can be loaded with a range of 300-550gr boolits from 450 to 2450 fps or more so you can cover darn near any need with it.

[Raygun]

None of the longer "straight wall cases" are truly straight walled so aren't going to be reloaded with carbide dies like handgun cartridges.

IMO, unless you enjoy recoil, the 35 Rem would be my recommendation over the 444 and 45-70. I have a Marlin in 45-70 and it doesn't get shot much these days. The 35 is more efficient in the consumption of both powder and lead, but is conciderably more powerful than the .357 in a carbine to the tune of an additional 600fps with 185gr+ boolits.

I am thinking there is no need to full length resize 444 Marlin or 45-70 and they could be neck sized only, which should make quick work of resizing cases.

The 45-70 is such a great versatile cartridge (fun) and it is tempting to go with it.

The 444 Marlin has it's good side and I have read some interesting survival articles indicating it to one of the most versatile cartridges when combined with the Marlin levergun.
l
The 35 Remington or 358 Winchester are tempting. I have owned the 358 Winchester in a Browning lever and loved it. At one time I had a 35 Remington lever action but don't remember much about shooting it.

When you throw the 44 magnum/44 special and 45 Colt in the mix you get lots of versatility for hand loading and they are both straight walled cartridges which work equally well in carbines and pistols..

Not an easy decision!

[stubshaft]

Well, I've been trying to decide the same thing myself. I have an 1894C (.357), 1894 (.44 Mag.) three model '94's in 30/30and one in 25/35, a model 64 in 30/30, Big Bore '94 (.375 Win.), two Guide Guns one ported and one not ported (45/70) and two 1895 marlins one with MG rifling and one with Ballard rifling (45/70) and last but not least an original 1895 Win (30/40).

One day I'll decide on which one to get next...

[0verkill]

You can't go wrong with either one, but my vote goes to the 444. In a pinch they can fire 44-40 pretty accurately.

[Raygun]

Well, I've been trying to decide the same thing myself. I have an 1894C (.357), 1894 (.44 Mag.) three model '94's in 30/30and one in 25/35, a model 64 in 30/30, Big Bore '94 (.375 Win.), two Guide Guns one ported and one not ported (45/70) and two 1895 marlins one with MG rifling and one with Ballard rifling (45/70) and last but not least an original 1895 Win (30/40).

One day I'll decide on which one to get next...

I like!

[Firebricker]

If you go with a .444 you can load low recoil plinkers in the .44 mag range. I only load full power loads for my .444 now since I bought 94 Marlin in .357 but it's nice to have it as an option. FB

[olafhardt]

For a hamdloader a 38-55 can be loaded pretty stout in a modern gun.

[northmn]

I had a 45-70 Marlin cowboy and I sold it because it was too light and kicked with any heavier load. As mentioned the 38-55 is a straight walled case that does anything I would want. I don't have any experience with the 444 but shot a deer with the 45-70 and the 320 grain Gould HP. This was with a single shot BP combination. If loaded to BP specks the 45-70 is still pretty potent.
I tend to agree with those that recommend the 35 Remington as I have an old Marlin in that caliber that I enjoy hunting with. Nothing special about straight cases, they even ahd bottlenecks in the BP days.

DP

[6pt-sika]

I'm an advocate of the 444 and the 45-70 .

If a person was just worried about killing ability I'd go with the 45-70 . If however they want hunting ability and more pleasent recoil from the bench if they expect to shoot alot of paper I'd go with the 444 . A second factor in favor of the 444 is the majority of the molds one will get can do double duty in a 44 MAG if you wanted to get one of them down the road !

[TXGunNut]

For a big brother to your 357 levergun as a plinker and possible hunter you already mentioned a couple of excellent choices, 44 Mag and 45 Colt. Brass and powder relatively cheap and easy to find and both are adequate for most hunting situations that may come up. I have and enjoy more powerful leverguns but for some the brass is getting to be an issue due to cost and availability. The 45-70 and 444 are indeed versatile but the pistol cartridges will cover a substantial part of that territory for less fuss and expense.

[JesterGrin_1]

Personally I can not say enough good things about the Marlin in .357 Mag or the Marlin GS in 45-70.

But to this end I also have to say I do not feel that you would go wrong with the .444 as it has many things going for it. The .444 will give you great versatility on Bullet choices and loadings from Bunny to Bear and give you flatter trajectory to boot.

I can not speak on the .45 Colt in a Lever Gun but can speak of my personal experience with the Marlin 1894SS in .44 Mag. I felt it could be a handy little rifle for close range work. But again speaking for myself I was not happy with the accuracy of the rifle at 100 yards or extended ranges up to say 150 yards.

So I purchased the Marlin 1895GS 45-70 of which I am more than happy with its performance as far as accuracy and handling.

And kept the Marlin 1894 in .357 for smaller stuff. :)


If I was going to purchase another Lever gun it would be The .35 Remington or .356. :)

I wish I could speak more on the .356 or .358 Winchester in a Lever Gun but alas I can not as I have just started working with the .358 Winchester in a Bolt Gun but must say that at this point I wonder why in the world it took me so long to get one lol. :)

[Raygun]

Thanks for the great input everyone.

This is going to be a very hard choice for me because I honestly want to keep my guns to a minimum. This may be a getting older thing. I want what I want and that's all I want. lol

This is a lever action thing, so I would like to keep it simple.

Years ago i thought about going with 41 magnum in revolver and carbine and forget everything just above and below. However, I really like the 44 special / 44 magnum and 38 special / 357 magnum. The 44 magnum is so versatile and lots of components available, same for the 357 magnum. Therefore not much need for the 41 magnum, which may be a better all around choice.

The .44 Magnum is the way I am tilting but I'm not so sure it would be versatile enough on the high end to be considered, a do everything needed above 357 Magnum cartridge.

[JesterGrin_1]

Ray that is why I got rid of the Marlin in .44 Mag and went with the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70. It can be loaded from mild to Wild. And if the need should arise I can purchase factory 45-70 ammo pretty easy.

[Raygun]

For a big brother to your 357 levergun as a plinker and possible hunter you already mentioned a couple of excellent choices, 44 Mag and 45 Colt. Brass and powder relatively cheap and easy to find and both are adequate for most hunting situations that may come up. I have and enjoy more powerful leverguns but for some the brass is getting to be an issue due to cost and availability. The 45-70 and 444 are indeed versatile but the pistol cartridges will cover a substantial part of that territory for less fuss and expense.

"The 45-70 and 444 are indeed versatile but the pistol cartridges will cover a substantial part of that territory for less fuss and expense."

Thanks,
The 45-70 or 444 may be a little ambitious for my need as I am looking for a somewhat economical cartridge. However, I suppose if one had a good stash of brass and did his own casting it wouldn't be to awfully expensive. It would be nice to have the extra power if needed for hunting or whatever.

I could probably make do with the 44 magnum in a levergun quite nicely. It's always an option to buy a nice bolt gun in 30-06, if ever the need for more power, but that is not what it is all about. It's going to be a challenge to only do only one caliber above 357 magnum.

[pressonregardless]

The 45-70 or 444 may be a little ambitious for my need as I am looking for a somewhat economical cartridge.

I recently found myself in a similar predicament. Found myself a nice M375 Marlin that should be arriving any day now, I'm thinking this will scratch my itch.

[Raygun]

For a hamdloader a 38-55 can be loaded pretty stout in a modern gun.


What's a 38-55....My Dumb!

[Bullshop]

What's a 38-55....My Dumb!

Its a 375 Win extra long.

[fordwannabe]

The 38-55 is a smooth shooting great cartridge that I bet would suit your wants to a tee. I use 9.0 grains of unique and a 250 grain lead boolits from a $22 lee mold for a very economical load and it is gallon milk jug at 200 yards accurate. Oh yeah after a while it got necked down to something called a 30-30, and I think people liked them too!

[JesterGrin_1]

This might help lol. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38-55_Winchester

[JesterGrin_1]

The 38-55 is a smooth shooting great cartridge that I bet would suit your wants to a tee. I use 9.0 grains of unique and a 250 grain lead boolits from a $22 lee mold for a very economical load and it is gallon milk jug at 200 yards accurate. Oh yeah after a while it got necked down to something called a 30-30, and I think people liked them too!

If I get a Chance I will see how my Marlin CB in 38-55 does on Deer and Hog with 10.0 Gr of Unique and the 235Gr and 250Gr Lee.

[superior]

Try a 45 colt. With more killing power than a 30-30 or 44 mag when properly loaded, it makes for a fine big bore thumper. 350 grain .454's will make a believer out of the toughest critters around.

[starmac]

I'm thinking since you already have a 357, and want a lever gun that you can do it all with,the venerable 45/70 gets my vote. You can load it any way you want, and if need be there is store bought ammo every where, which makes a difference, in my mind anyway.

My go to gun has always been a 300 savage, but you don't want to run off and forget your ammo these days.

[Raygun]

Try a 45 colt. With more killing power than a 30-30 or 44 mag when properly loaded, it makes for a fine big bore thumper. 350 grain .454's will make a believer out of the toughest critters around.

I have about decided to go with a 45 Colt for my big bore levergun. I am going to put it off until after the first of the year, so I have lots time to decide.

[TXGunNut]

"The 45-70 and 444 are indeed versatile but the pistol cartridges will cover a substantial part of that territory for less fuss and expense."

Thanks,
The 45-70 or 444 may be a little ambitious for my need as I am looking for a somewhat economical cartridge. However, I suppose if one had a good stash of brass and did his own casting it wouldn't be to awfully expensive. It would be nice to have the extra power if needed for hunting or whatever.

I could probably make do with the 44 magnum in a levergun quite nicely. It's always an option to buy a nice bolt gun in 30-06, if ever the need for more power, but that is not what it is all about. It's going to be a challenge to only do only one caliber above 357 magnum.

Good points, my friend (and neighbor!). A good supply of tapered rifle cases will indeed last the average shooter for several years. One thing to consider is the cost of powder and the efficiency of pistol cartridges. Powder isn't cheap these days! Add the versatility of a pistol cartridge case (it can actually be used in a handgun!) and a pistol caliber carbine or rifle starts looking pretty good. But don't listen to me, I'm a proud owner of a 45-70 and 375 Winchester levergun and look forward to adding a 444 to my stable. A bit ahead of that 444 is a 92 in .357.
You're welcome to shoot my 45 Trapper and/or Marlin 45-70 if that will help your decision process.

[TXGunNut]

"The 45-70 and 444 are indeed versatile but the pistol cartridges will cover a substantial part of that territory for less fuss and expense."

Thanks,
The 45-70 or 444 may be a little ambitious for my need as I am looking for a somewhat economical cartridge. However, I suppose if one had a good stash of brass and did his own casting it wouldn't be to awfully expensive. It would be nice to have the extra power if needed for hunting or whatever.

I could probably make do with the 44 magnum in a levergun quite nicely. It's always an option to buy a nice bolt gun in 30-06, if ever the need for more power, but that is not what it is all about. It's going to be a challenge to only do only one caliber above 357 magnum.

Good points, my friend (and neighbor!). A good supply of tapered rifle cases will indeed last the average shooter for several years. One thing to consider is the cost of powder and the efficiency of pistol cartridges. Powder isn't cheap these days! Add the versatility of a pistol cartridge case (it can actually be used in a handgun!) and a pistol caliber carbine or rifle starts looking pretty good. But don't listen to me, I'm a proud owner of a 45-70 and 375 Winchester levergun and look forward to adding a 444 to my stable. A bit ahead of that 444 is a 92 in .357.
You're welcome to shoot my 45 Trapper and/or Marlin 45-70 if that will help your decision process.

[EDK]

You said you have 44 magnum handguns, so that makes the solution obvious to me. Get an 1894 in 44...if you can find one at a decent price...and enjoy. You don't need to add dies or boolit moulds if you already have them. I have a DILLON 550B set up in 357 and 44 most of the time. While I have rifles in 30/30 and 45/70, as well as 357 and 44 (and 5.56 and 7.62,) the pistol calibers are a lot cheaper and easier to load for. I like the big guns, but I can shoot the pistol calibers a lot more. There ain't a lot of critters in MO that a 44 magnum won't handle...not a lot in Texas either.

Load generic for both rifle and handgun use. Develop "rifle specific" if you wish or need to do so. Just don't have unrealistic expectations for accuracy in a lever gun.

:redneck: :cbpour: :guntootsmiley:

[JesterGrin_1]

I am sorry but I do disagree with a point. And that is that if you cast for the Marlin in .44 Mag you need at least .432 size bullets where as I do not know many pistols in .44 Mag that will accept that large of a size of boolit unless one reams the Cylinder Throats. So to have good Ammo for the .44 Mag you need to load specific for the Marlin and then whatever other .44 Mag pistol you wish to use.

And I do agree with EDK if a Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag will group Hunting loads at 100 yards of 3 inches you are doing well.

But the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 will shoot 1 inch groups and better at that range. :)

And I know many here do what some people call Plink or shoot a bunch. But I am a bit different in that respect as in if I am going to shoot each shot taken I better have a good reason for expending that round. Either looking for loads or making sure the found load is consistent enough for a good Hunting Load and the rifle sighted in correctly. So the cost of the reloads is not a big concern. IE after I found a load I liked for my Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 I loaded 50 rounds a couple of years ago. I still have 20 of them. :)

[Raygun]

You said you have 44 magnum handguns, so that makes the solution obvious to me. Get an 1894 in 44...if you can find one at a decent price...and enjoy. You don't need to add dies or boolit moulds if you already have them. I have a DILLON 550B set up in 357 and 44 most of the time. While I have rifles in 30/30 and 45/70, as well as 357 and 44 (and 5.56 and 7.62,) the pistol calibers are a lot cheaper and easier to load for. I like the big guns, but I can shoot the pistol calibers a lot more. There ain't a lot of critters in MO that a 44 magnum won't handle...not a lot in Texas either.

Load generic for both rifle and handgun use. Develop "rifle specific" if you wish or need to do so. Just don't have unrealistic expectations for accuracy in a lever gun.

:redneck: :cbpour: :guntootsmiley:



"Back in the day I loved to handload for the 44mag./44 special for my revolvers."

My 44's are long gone but I found it to be a most versital pistol cartridge. I had opertunity to shoot a Marlin lever 44 mag years ago and it was great at 100 yards with 180 grain fmj. As some have stated, the somewhatl over sized bore diamiter in leverguns over revolvers do concern me. I still have the dies so it is an option.

[Raygun]

Good points, my friend (and neighbor!). A good supply of tapered rifle cases will indeed last the average shooter for several years. One thing to consider is the cost of powder and the efficiency of pistol cartridges. Powder isn't cheap these days! Add the versatility of a pistol cartridge case (it can actually be used in a handgun!) and a pistol caliber carbine or rifle starts looking pretty good. But don't listen to me, I'm a proud owner of a 45-70 and 375 Winchester levergun and look forward to adding a 444 to my stable. A bit ahead of that 444 is a 92 in .357.
You're welcome to shoot my 45 Trapper and/or Marlin 45-70 if that will help your decision process.

Thanks TXGunNut,

There are so many good choices and I suppose that is a good problem to have.
It is all in good fun. I am sure the 45-70 or 444 would cover any need above the 357 in a carbine. I doubt I would ever have need for heavy loads in a 45-70 or 444 but it would be available if i did. I do like the 357 Marlin.

On a side note, I think the 22lr or 22M in a levergun is awesome. Logic would dictate that a .22lr and 45-70 would cover every possible need in a carbine. We got it done with .22lr and 12 gage shotgun back in the day.

[JesterGrin_1]

I kinda came to the same conclusion. That the Marlin GS or Stainless Guide Gun would do what I needed above the Marlin in .357 Mag and do it well.

I did like my Marlin in .44 Mag but I did not trust its accuracy so it was replaced with the Marlin 1895GS in 45-70 and I fully trust its capabilities.

[Red Sky]

I went through this same process earlier this year, needing something to cover what the 5.45 carbine (Saiga conversion) did not. Looking at energy levels from a carbine/lever rifle, those aren't terribly different - though obviously energy is only part of the equation.

I spent a few months researching what I wanted, and that included all the bolt action rifles and their pointy calibers as well - and even through all of that concluded that the most versatility I could get was from the 45-70. It can handle the toughest game out there (including African, though it's below the legal minimum in many places and not optimal in any case), yet can harvest rabbits and the like without utterly vaporizing them like a 30-06 or similar would.

The lever action is faster than bolt and I didn't intend to do much prone shooting (obviously you've already decided on lever, just going through my process), and came in very handy guns. While pump is faster, few rifles use it and from my limited shotgun usage I never have liked the front-heaviness that comes with any extra action up front.

On top of that - the 45-70 lever gun choices are rather accurate, and the cartridge is plenty capable of long range shooting along with the use of proper range finding and optics if desired. Based on its wounding characteristics, I'd give it more "hunting effective" range than most of the 30 cal options with the right bullet. Likewise, it can be loaded for more effectiveness close in as well with the right selection of boolit (or bullet, some of those copper things are quite good for specific purposes).

All of this lead to my buying a new Marlin 1895GBL, talked about in a couple threads on the Boolit board while trying to get loads working for it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_250885080812d9b54c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7090)

So far, I'm thinking it is fitting the bill perfectly, and I couldn't be happier except for the QC issue I ran into that resulted in a few weeks of waiting to get it back from Remington. I think for your purposes a similar choice would be perfect, and though the arguments for .44 mag and such are great ones, I think you will be happier knowing the headroom is there, and that it is more differentiated from the .357 that you already have. Good luck with whatever choice you end up making - it's hard to make a wrong one when it means a new gun!

[Raygun]

I went through this same process earlier this year, needing something to cover what the 5.45 carbine (Saiga conversion) did not. Looking at energy levels from a carbine/lever rifle, those aren't terribly different - though obviously energy is only part of the equation.

I spent a few months researching what I wanted, and that included all the bolt action rifles and their pointy calibers as well - and even through all of that concluded that the most versatility I could get was from the 45-70. It can handle the toughest game out there (including African, though it's below the legal minimum in many places and not optimal in any case), yet can harvest rabbits and the like without utterly vaporizing them like a 30-06 or similar would.

The lever action is faster than bolt and I didn't intend to do much prone shooting (obviously you've already decided on lever, just going through my process), and came in very handy guns. While pump is faster, few rifles use it and from my limited shotgun usage I never have liked the front-heaviness that comes with any extra action up front.

On top of that - the 45-70 lever gun choices are rather accurate, and the cartridge is plenty capable of long range shooting along with the use of proper range finding and optics if desired. Based on its wounding characteristics, I'd give it more "hunting effective" range than most of the 30 cal options with the right bullet. Likewise, it can be loaded for more effectiveness close in as well with the right selection of boolit (or bullet, some of those copper things are quite good for specific purposes).

All of this lead to my buying a new Marlin 1895GBL, talked about in a couple threads on the Boolit board while trying to get loads working for it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_250885080812d9b54c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7090)

So far, I'm thinking it is fitting the bill perfectly, and I couldn't be happier except for the QC issue I ran into that resulted in a few weeks of waiting to get it back from Remington. I think for your purposes a similar choice would be perfect, and though the arguments for .44 mag and such are great ones, I think you will be happier knowing the headroom is there, and that it is more differentiated from the .357 that you already have. Good luck with whatever choice you end up making - it's hard to make a wrong one when it means a new gun!

Awesome looking rig! Makes me want to face down a charging lion. lol

[superior]

My 1895G will always hve a special place n my heart And, if I were only allowed to have one rifle. my 16 other ones would have to go. It does it all with round-balls to 500gr body slammers. But, since I already have it and the others, the Rossi 45Colt has taken it's place as my favorite. Weighing in at only 5 pounds. it carries like no other and delivers the power of some 45-70 loads while handling roundballs for small game. I have the 20" round stainless model.
10+1 capacity, stunning looks, the strongest action type with it's 2 vertical locking lugs, and a very slim stock and forearm make for a combination that's tough to beat.