Mold For 357 Sig...

[ArrowJ]

Here is my situation. I really want to start casting in the spring of next year when I start reloading again, but because of budget constraints I cannot really afford to do a lot of experimentation the for the first year.

Because of this I need to find a mold for 357 Sig that will come close to matching a good defensive round for a Glock 31. This way I can shoot more and learn about casting and then start having fun experimenting and so forth in 2014 when I get a rifle. Also, if anyone is dropping this exact boolit can you tell me if you are sizing them and to what size, and what lube you use?

Maybe I will need to slug my Glock barrel first? Anyway, any help you guys can give to get me setup on the cheap would be awesome. If this is unrealistic and I should wait until I can afford to buy multiple molds etc. to experiment I can do that too. All opinions welcome.

[45fan]

A 357 sig uses a 9 mm projectile if I am correct. I would assume choose a 9 mm mold that suits your needs. I havent seen a a dedicated 357 Sig mold before. Then again I am new to this casting thing so maybe I am mistaken.

[Von Dingo]

I have no experience with the .357 Sig, but recall that it uses different slugs than the 9MM. It has to do with overall length, and the ojive of standard 9MM slugs, short nosed slugs are needed. If the ogive is too long, the slug diameter won't be large enough for the slug be gripped by the case, let alone be crimped.

[shotman]

there are very few molds that will work. NO gas check and you say "defence??? " you cant load a lead for that, and in a glock barrel, you will have some problems finding a slug that will work with the size of the barrel. Most molds the crimp area is too long. and if you seat to work, the boolit will fall in case. . Best to get a 40 barrel and use it . You will be a lot happier

[ArrowJ]

Well, I only want to come close to defense because that is what it will be used for (home defense) and I wanted to train with a round close to what it will be loaded with in the safe. I think I saw at least one mold for 357 sig. I guess I will not be able to be picky. I may very well get a 40 barrel and 9mm barrel, but, I am definitely going to go with the Glock 31 in 357 Sig for various reasons...the other two barrels will drop in and work in the same gun.

[ArrowJ]

What are the limits for 40 S&W in bullet size? I know there is a fairly small pocket for 357 Sig. Now you have my definitely feeling like a probably :)

[scarry scarney]

When I was reloading my (sig 229) 357 sig, I was using the Rainer 124grn 9mm flat nose (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1050301345/rainier-leadsafe-bullets-9mm-355-diameter-124-grain-plated-flat-nose). I would look for a mold that duplicated that bullet. Before you buy the mold, you might try to find someone that already has the mold and will give or sell you a few bullets

[Tim357]

Yeah, what Von said. I read a piece recently ( G &A, Shooting Times, or some such) that mentioned the difference in ogive, seated length, etc using regular 9 mm boolits/ bullets. IIRC, it was penned by the guy that used to work in the lab at CCI/ Speer

[ArrowJ]

Yeah, what Von said. I read a piece recently ( G &A, Shooting Times, or some such) that mentioned the difference in ogive, seated length, etc using regular 9 mm boolits/ bullets. IIRC, it was penned by the guy that used to work in the lab at CCI/ Speer

Any chance you can dig it up and let us know the source? I would love to read it. I will do a little Google later and see what that turns up.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

[Elkins45]

What I have found is that a SWC style bullet with a long straight sided body profile rather that a rounded nose like the typical 9mm bullet. You might be better served by looking for a .35 caliber revolver bullet and sizing it to .356 or .357 as appropriate.

I really like the Lee 105 grain SWC bullet because it has a lot of surface area to grip the case wall. It's a bit lighter than the "normal" bullet but it feeds and shoots well.

[Tim357]

Arrow, I'll do some diggin, but CRS has a tendency to rear its ugly mug at times.

[MikeS]

there are very few molds that will work. NO gas check and you say "defence??? " you cant load a lead for that, and in a glock barrel, you will have some problems finding a slug that will work with the size of the barrel. Most molds the crimp area is too long. and if you seat to work, the boolit will fall in case. . Best to get a 40 barrel and use it . You will be a lot happier

What exactly do you mean you can't load lead for a defense load? Please explain that, as lead boolits have killed more people than jacketed bullets!

[MikeS]

ArrowJ, Yes, slugging your bore would be a good idea. One boolit I would seriously look at if I was you would be the Lee 105gr SWC boolit. It's designed for 38's, but it should work fine for 357sig as well. One important thing to remember is that because the sig round is a bottlenecked cartridge it headspaces on the shoulder of the cartridge, rather than on the edge of the cartridge, so boolits can and should be roll crimped rather than taper crimped. To roll crimp a boolit requires a crimp groove, something no 9mm boolit is going to have, but boolits designed for the 38/357 will. The 105gr SWC boolit is short enough that most of the boolit is within the neck. Unfortunately the neck on the 357sig is so short that it will be VERY hard to find a stock design that will stay wholly in the neck. With the 105, the entire lube groove is in the neck, something that is fairly important unless you're going to tumble lube the boolits. I just recently bought a mould for 400 Corbon, a cartridge that's similar to the 357sig in that it's a bottlenecked cartridge too.

With the 400 Corbon there's a tip to make reloading easier, that is resizing the case first in a 45ACP carbide sizing die, then sizing the neck with the proper 400Corbon die, I think the same can probably be done with the 357sig, that is first using a 40S&W carbide resizing die to resize the body, then the 357sig die to resize the neck. By doing this you don't need to use case lube when reloading them. I use a wet method of cleaning my cases, and so like to have the primers removed from the cases before cleaning them, so I run them thru the 45ACP die to resize the body, and remove the primer, then I clean them (first I run them thru a sonic cleaner, then I tumble them in dry corncob to dry and polish them) then when I run them thru the 400 resizing die it clears the flash hole of any corncob media thats stuck there. But this is getting off topic. Checkout the Lee 105gr SWC boolit, I think you'll like it.

[MtGun44]

I have not loaded for .357 Sig, but lots for .357 mag, .38 Super and 9mm Luger.
I would recommend Lee 356-120-TC as a starting point. With good lube and std
lube groove design and air cooled wwts there should be no need for GCs. I shoot full power
.357 Mag loads all the time without GCs, same for .44 Mag. Key points are fit,
design and lube quality. Start with NRA 50-50 or equiv and do not try other homebrews
until you get it working. AC wwt should be fine, hardness is at best a tertiary issue,
not primary by any means.

Bill

[shotman]

mike I want a BIG hole that way you dont shoot 15 rounds . IF you can get that many back to back with lead.
the Lee TL 356-124 works the best I have found . it as the small rings and can be seated as needed. . the sig dont have any case retention so you need a crip die . You will find its not cast friendly. I messed with it for while and give up .
one 1/2 grain will make big change. So get a GOOD power measure.

[fredj338]

The 357sig needs a very specific shaped bullet to function well. It will NOT take most RN designs & few TCFP. I use the Seaco 124gr TCFP, works fine as I get enough of the front driving band into the short case neck to provide good neck tension @ 0.356" dia. The issue w/ most lead bullets, particulalry smaller bores, is you will have a diff time getting good reults @ the higher op pressures of the 357sig. It can be done for sure, but will require more tinkering. I am happy to run mine @ 1200fps for practice loads. I still shoot a lot of plated & jacketed in 357sig though, the best bet IMO for full power 1350-1400fps loads.

[scarry scarney]

What mold number is your Saeco? Is it #377? Thanks

[40Super]

I shoot quite a bit of .357 Sig, and as much as wouldn't mind shooting lead in, that is one caliber that I'm satisfied with Berry's or Rainiers plated and Hornady xtp's in. To get enough neck tension is tricky as it is with jacketed, with lead you end up loosing some with the lube groove, I'd be worried about setback.
I have the .40 S&W barrel in that gun also and use it for practicing with lead.

[ArrowJ]

I think you are on to something 40Super. Maybe a 357 Sig with another barrel for lead. I have to say I am a little disconcerted with buying a Glock at all. I really do not want to buy a pistol that always works except when it starts spitting brass in your face. I could buy another generation but the Gen 4 fits my hand so much better. I will probably role the bones anyway and get two barrels.


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

[Elkins45]

I shoot quite a bit of .357 Sig, and as much as wouldn't mind shooting lead in, that is one caliber that I'm satisfied with Berry's or Rainiers plated and Hornady xtp's in. To get enough neck tension is tricky as it is with jacketed, with lead you end up loosing some with the lube groove, I'd be worried about setback.
I have the .40 S&W barrel in that gun also and use it for practicing with lead.

Use AA#9 powder and a straght-sided revolver bullet and you don't have to worry about setback. The boolet base is sitting on and supported by a full case powder charge.

[40Super]

I am using AA#9, while if you load it at max, the powder is at the base of the bullet, with reduced loadings, like when shooting lead(or trying to enjoy shooting without dealing with that recoil) there is room for setback. The thing to remember with the Sig is with just .015" of setback it raises pressures substantially, give it more and bad things can go bye,bye. It is NOT wise to rely on the powder to keep setback from happening. While careful loading and not repeatedly chambering the same round can also keep concerns down, I just don't care to play that game with that caliber. A 1000 count box of Berry's is cheap enough to not even bother

[Tim357]

[QUOTE=MikeS; One important thing to remember is that because the sig round is a bottlenecked cartridge it headspaces on the shoulder of the cartridge, rather than on the edge of the cartridge, so boolits can and should be roll crimped rather than taper crimped.

Mike, I respectfully disagree with the statement re: 357 Sig headspaces on the shoulder. While it is a bottleneck cartridge, the designers made it to headspace on the mouth of the case, just as any rimless pistol cartridge. Besides, with as hort of a neck that the Sig has, I wonder just how secure a crimp can be.

[2wheelDuke]

[QUOTE=MikeS; One important thing to remember is that because the sig round is a bottlenecked cartridge it headspaces on the shoulder of the cartridge, rather than on the edge of the cartridge, so boolits can and should be roll crimped rather than taper crimped.

Mike, I respectfully disagree with the statement re: 357 Sig headspaces on the shoulder. While it is a bottleneck cartridge, the designers made it to headspace on the mouth of the case, just as any rimless pistol cartridge. Besides, with as hort of a neck that the Sig has, I wonder just how secure a crimp can be.


I've heard both.

Wikipedia says:

According to the official C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente Pour L'Epreuve Des Armes A Feu Portatives) 2007 guidelines the .357 SIG headspaces on the shoulder (P2-H1). Some US sources concur this C.I.P. ruling.[4] US reloading supplier Lyman once published the .357 SIG headspaces on the case mouth (H2).

So both are correct I suppose.

[Elkins45]

The current version of the Speer manual indicates it headspace on the case mouth.

[fredj338]

[QUOTE=Tim357;1880130]


I've heard both.

Wikipedia says:


So both are correct I suppose.
Well that may have been the intent, but reality says other wise. Set the dies up wrong & not get the shoulder correct & you wil have FT fire. No, in reality it DOES headspace on the small shoulder. Early 357sig shooters made brass by necking down the 40. This resulted in cases shorter than SAAMI spec but fired fine. Also, some guys are canneluring bullets & roll crimping w/ great results. That would NOT be possible if the case truely headspaced on the case mouth.

[fredj338]

I am using AA#9, while if you load it at max, the powder is at the base of the bullet, with reduced loadings, like when shooting lead(or trying to enjoy shooting without dealing with that recoil) there is room for setback. The thing to remember with the Sig is with just .015" of setback it raises pressures substantially, give it more and bad things can go bye,bye. It is NOT wise to rely on the powder to keep setback from happening. While careful loading and not repeatedly chambering the same round can also keep concerns down, I just don't care to play that game with that caliber. A 1000 count box of Berry's is cheap enough to not even bother

Pressure increase w/ setback is directly related to the powder used & where you are already at in the pressure range. With slower powders, a 0.015" setback means almost nothing pressure wise. You don;t really see pressure increases until you hit 0.04" & then things start changing rapidly. At 0.06", pressures are pushing past safe, beyond that, thngs get ugly until you have a setback so far the neck tension is lost.

[HiVelocity]

ArrowJ-

I had very few problems loading cast lead in .357 Sig cases for my G-23 with a Lone Wolf conversion barrel. Shot good.

I was casting the RD 356-135-TCGC (Truncated gas checked 135gr tumble lube bullet).

Works in everything 9mm and .357 Sig.

HV

[Elkins45]

[QUOTE=2wheelDuke;1880165]
Well that may havebeen the intent, but reality says other wise. Set the dies up wrong & not get the shoulder correct & you wil have FT fire. No, in reality it DOES headspace on the small shoulder. Early 357sig shooters made brass by necking down the 40. This resulted in cases shorter than SAAMI spec but fired fine. Also, some guys are canneluring bullets & roll crimping w/ great results. That would NOT be possible if the case truely headspaced on the case mouth.

In practical reality, most auto pistol rounds actually headspace on the extractor. Dean Grinnell did some experiments where he kept trimming 45ACP cases shorter and shorter and shooting them from the magazine. What he found was that cases could be much shorter than the SAMII minimum and still go bang because the extractor was holding the case against the breech face tightly enough for the firing pin to whack the primer. So it's not surprising that the Sig will headspace on the shoulder if the case mouth fails to do the job.

[MikeS]

Well, I don't know for sure how the 357sig headspaces, but I do know that the 400 Corbon DOES headspace on the shoulder. I had assumed that considering the fact that the Corbon round was designed after the sig round, and was basically a copy of the sig design, only larger.

[Ausglock]

G'day. I have been reloading the 357Sig for a few years. I run a Glock 35 with a Lissner (Ray Pulver) barrel.
My cast load is a Lee 140gr SWC 38/357 Mag pill sized to .356. I use 40 S&W cases resized to 357Sig.( Yes I know about the short neck yada yada yada)
I use 6.4gr WSF with this boolit. it gets a lee factory crimp into the crimp groove of the boolit. very accurate out to 50 metres and great to shoot. this round will fit and feed out of the Glock mags with no issues.

[fredj338]

[QUOTE=fredj338;1882329]

In practical reality, most auto pistol rounds actually headspace on the extractor. Dean Grinnell did some experiments where he kept trimming 45ACP cases shorter and shorter and shooting them from the magazine. What he found was that cases could be much shorter than the SAMII minimum and still go bang because the extractor was holding the case against the breech face tightly enough for the firing pin to whack the primer. So it's not surprising that the Sig will headspace on the shoulder if the case mouth fails to do the job.

Correct, but get a worn extractor & you will have issues w/ hedspace if the cases/dies aren't right w/ any caliber. Set the 357sig up to headspace any other way but the little shoulder & you will have issues.

[Elkins45]

[QUOTE=Elkins45;1882675]

Correct, but get a worn extractor & you will have issues w/ hedspace if the cases/dies aren't right w/ any caliber. Set the 357sig up to headspace any other way but the little shoulder & you will have issues.

I agree that it makes sense to take advantage of it, since it's there. Think of any one part as a fail-safe: all three (mouth, shoulder and rim) have to fail before you get a misfire. Of the three, the shoulder has the most surface area and is therefore the most solid.

[xringshutr]

Here is a post I typed over a year ago. I have tried a couple different boolits in the Sig, but this is THE one. It just works. Use AA#7 or #9 with a very light taper crimp. You will be happy. I use Speed Green lube, but anything should work. If it doesn't shoot, you are doing something wrong in the reloading process. I have cranked out a couple thousand of these on my Hornady LNL AP with great success. A couple little tricks that I found are: 1. bell the case slightly (so the boolit will just set inside the case mouth), and VERY lightly taper crimp so the boolit doesn't move when fed into the chamber. Other than that, load, shoot and enjoy.

Forgot to mention seating depth. Just short enough to fit in the magazine works for me in both a Glock 31 and a Sig P250. You might have to play with it a little though.

Lee 358-125 RF
This bullet (new style) has shot well in about every gun I have shot it in including the 357 Sig, which I am loading with 9.2 gr of Win 571. I have posted about this load before. It will be a sad day when I run out of 571. AA #7 works well too though. Bottom line, it's a nice accurate bullet for autos and revolvers as well as easy on the lead stash. What's not to like?

[ArrowJ]

Thanks!


http://highcaliberguns.com
http://thesitterdowners.com

[40Super]

All this talk of lead in the Sig got me thinking of playing with my 140gr TC (missouri B.C. calls it the Zinger) in the Sig. I got the mold from Magma Engineering. It is a .357Mag bullet so it has a crimp groove that I could slightly roll crimp into and it should hold securely. I just have to size them down to .356.

[Beau Cassidy]

9.2 gr of Win 571.

Thanks for that load. I have an unopened 8 lb keg of HS-7 which as you know is the same thing.

[MtGun44]

W571/HS7 was THE powder for max loads in .38 Super with heavy boolits. Probably a real
good fit for .357 SIG, but I don't have one - so, good luck.

Bill

[jmart]

All this talk of lead in the Sig got me thinking of playing with my 140gr TC (missouri B.C. calls it the Zinger) in the Sig. I got the mold from Magma Engineering. It is a .357Mag bullet so it has a crimp groove that I could slightly roll crimp into and it should hold securely. I just have to size them down to .356.

So would you purchase .358 or .357 sized bullets? And then TL them down to .356 using ALOX/JPW/MS?

Any changes in base lube lube? The Zingers come lubed with some Green Lube, whereas other offerings that look promising are Lubed with a Blue lube? Not up to speed on lubes or applicability as you can tell from my questions......

[40Super]

I cast my own of that bullet after trying some out from M.B.C., they came with the Blue lube (it's real name is Blue Angle). If I were to buy some I would get .357 so I didn't have to size them down so far. You shouldn't have to relube them.
My mold drops them at .359-.360, my lube is a mixture of carnuba red,moly, a bit more paraffin, and Johnson paste wax(the last 2 are to make it a softer lube,Vasoline would work also).



Edit: I see they are now offered in a red lube,(caranuba red ,I assume) wereas non of the others are, thats strange. Either way they should work, just resize em.

[MikeS]

As others have stated, many cartridges that are supposed to headspace on the case mouth in reality don't. I have a pistol chambered for 41 Action Express, getting brass for this cartridge is fairly hard, and expensive, so I started making my own from 40S&W brass. The 40 brass makes a 41AE case that's a bit too short (between .015 - .020" too short) yet I've never had a problem shooting loads with them. I have some of the proper 41AE brass, and when shooting them I can't tell the difference between reloads loaded into the 'proper' brass and the brass I make from 40S&W.

[rodsvet]

I use Saeco #924. It is 124 grain SWC with gas check. I use Accurate #9 and sometime #7. I take the barrel out and use it when sizing to get the headspace correct. Headspace on the shoulder just like a rifle. The #9 powder fills the case so that there is no boolit setback. Four inch Sig Or Glock is right at 1400 FPS in my pistols. Accuracy is good for me, but I'm no target shooter. I cast with straight linotype. Your results may vary. Good luck, Rod

[N1YDP]

it headspaces on the shoulder,i found some diferences in dies,lee dies dont set the shoulder back far enough.hornady dies do.you can grind the shell holder down to get the shoulder back more for the lee dies.here is a pic.of the shoulders
fist one i used lee 40 s&w die then hornady die
second,just hornady die
third lee die,notice the higher shoulder

[N1YDP]

i use lee tl356-124-2r mold and size them .356.very little flare,lite crimp

[Beau Cassidy]

Is anyone using blue dot for .357 sig? I seem to have quite a stash of that. It seems to be in the correct speed range and is a little bulky.

[40Super]

I've used it, for the J-words , it worked alright. I prefered AA#9 though but if you have a bunch of BD it will work fine. Try it at night once:shock:.

[Beau Cassidy]

I just gotta ask... Everybody is saying put a light crimp on this cartridge yet it is prone to setback. What sense does that make? Just asking because I am getting geared up for it.

[pt4u2nv]

Lyman 125gr HP " Devastator" Sized at .358 AA#7 9.2 grs COL 1.140" with Taper Crimp works great in my P239 Sig. Very accurate and expands great with lead. No problems with setback and grips well in the case mouth which can be a problem with .357 Sig.

[40Super]

The reason for the light crimp is to not go too far with the crimp. Much more than a light(variable/experiment) and neck tension actually decreases, thus more setback. Ideally go as heavy as possible, but stop before it starts to reduce tension. It's hard to put to words. Check with a scale, try pushing on the bullet on a bathroom scale, adjust crimp till you can push to 45lbs at least without the bullet moving, confirm by cycling the rounds in your gun several times , allow slide to slam closed just like firing, setback should be less than .01" after 4 or 5 cycles.
I also don't run my brass through an expander after resizing, just make sure case mouth is chamfered, it helps neck tension.