Pin Gauges As Expanding Stems?

[H.Callahan]

Ok, first off, I am not a machinist nor an engineer. I have not played either on TV and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I see the need for expanding brass to different sizes depending on the bullet diameter to fit different scenarios with different guns. For example, I have several 38 & 357 handguns requiring different size diameters to achieve proper fit. Plus, I have a number of 9mm that I sometimes share 358-ish boolits with the wheelguns. The same thing applies to multiple guns in the same or near the same (diameter-wise) caliber.

This seems to me to dictate that to service all the different diameters someone with a collection of guns, one would need to obtain expanders in a whole range of diameters to cover all the possibilities that one might run in to. I know that members here can produce produce custom expanders to spec. However, that requires getting a hold of them, placing an order, waiting for it to be made, delivered, etc. Plus if they get hit by a bus, the supply of custom expanders dries up.

With that said, for a long time I have been wondering if it is conceptually feasible to use a standard pin gauge as a "custom" expanding stud. Being readily available individually in .0005 increments and a small cost ($3.00 at most per pin in common diameters and I have seen full sets available for under $100) it appears to the unwashed masses (ie, me) that this would be an excellent method to easily be able to get custom expanding with very little effort and cost.

The Bubba in me would think that the quick and dirty way of using them would be to chuck a pin up in a drill press, put a shell holder in a vise and have at it. One could adjust the depth of expansion with the stop on the press. Then I got to thinking about it further and was wondering of there would be a way to have a holder mounted in a standard die body that would hold a replaceable pin gauge. One could then select the "expander" pin that one wanted, put it in the hold in the die and adjust the die and start cranking. While looking at pins, I notice in the catalogs that they have universal holders for them when used for measuring that accept a wide range of pins, so I think there has to be a way to accomplish something like this.

Now, if this WERE viable, I would not flatter myself to think that I was the first person to come up with this, so I assume something is flawed with my thinking. Nonetheless, I would like to know, for my own edification, why this won't work.

[MBTcustom]

The biggest problem I see is coming up with a way to get the pins into the necks strait enough to do any good.
If you are talking about bottle neck cartridges, the Lee collet neck die gives some degree of control over neck tension.
What you could do, is clamp a block of aluminum (get it from the scrap yard) to your drill press table. Use a drill bit to make a hole exactly the same size as your shellholder in that piece of aluminum. The epoxy that shell holder in place. Now your shell holder is basically lined up with your chuck/expanding pin.
make different blocks for different shelholders, and use a drill bit the same size as the primer hole to line them back up each time.
The biggest problem is going to be keeping the shellholder in the block while you are extracting the pins, but it might work just fine.
I think its a great Idea.
Only one way to find out!

[Moondawg]

For bottle neck rifle cases, and for all I know also for pistol cases, Redfing makes a outside neck sizing die that takes various different outside neck sizing buttons. Some of them are in thousandths and some in half thousandths. Wilson also makes an outside neck sizing die and so do several other die makers. The buttons fit all of them.

[MBTcustom]

For bottle neck rifle cases, and for all I know also for pistol cases, Redfing makes a outside neck sizing die that takes various different outside neck sizing buttons. Some of them are in thousandths and some in half thousandths. Wilson also makes an outside neck sizing die and so do several other die makers. The buttons fit all of them.

That still requires a separate purchase for each new size. I think that the intent of the OP is to get a system together that will, with one $100 purchase, fill the needs of all sizes for all calibers.

[Doc Highwall]

I think it would be a waste of time and bad for the pins. The pins have no lead angle to start in the case mouth and you will need a second step to start the bullet straight.

They are great for checking the case mouth inside diameters, for how much your sizing dies are sizing them down so you can see if they are being over worked.

I would suggest just using a Lyman M Die or a RCBS expander that is .001" to .002" smaller then your bullet size.

[H.Callahan]

That still requires a separate purchase for each new size. I think that the intent of the OP is to get a system together that will, with one $100 purchase, fill the needs of all sizes for all calibers.
Essentially, yes. It could be much less than that in that you can buy pins individually at ~$3 a crack. About six to seven pins could cover the entire 35/9mm spectrum. $21 One would not have to buy a whole set of pins, if ya didn't want to. They would be easy to obtain and not be dependent on having a skilled machinist available (not to disparage any of our members providing this service --it is just that it is possible in 5 or 10 years, they may not be available to me if I need something new). I guess I like "open source" solutions whenever possible.

[MBTcustom]

Doc, I agree with you. You gave me this advice and I did as you said and it changed my shooting. It is now my motes operandi.
However, the guy is trying to find a simpler option to get the flexibility. I have total flexability because I have a shop and all the tools and skill with making precision diameters. He does not necessarily have either.
I think this is very doable.
First, you can chamfer the leading edge of the initial expanding pin by spinnig it in a hand drill against a belt sander.
The second alignment step is .002-.003 bigger than the initial expanding operation and therefore needs little more than a slightly broken edge in order to work.
Total flexibility in one simple package.
Only one way to find out!

[MBTcustom]

I want to help you get this going, and I think I could help you by making a shellholder holder.
Would you be willing to post pictures in special projects?
I could make you a bar that you can clamp in position to your drill press table and then snap your inserts in and out of it. Then it would be a simple matter of experimenting with the different pins to discover the perfect fit. If nothing else, it gives you a way to find out what size you want your custom M die to be cut to.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, H. Callahan. I have used these gage pins in a bench lathe for case-spinning mandrils.. getting them in is no problem..it's the getting out that sometimes can be!
At the very least, you will probably want to stone a radius on end..or that sharp edge is going to scrape your brass.
There is still the problem of pulling a tight pin out of case mouth..& how to hold it in some type of die body? These are hard..but I guess the simplest would be to grind two opposing square edged slots one one end & make a sliding "key" that fits into side of 7/8" threaded holder..and is a close fit in these slots. Might get away with only 1 slot. I'm not sure a simple set screw & "whistle stop" type holder would do it.

[MBTcustom]

Hello, H. Callahan. I have used these gage pins in a bench lathe for case-spinning mandrils.. getting them in is no problem..it's the getting out that sometimes can be!
At the very least, you will probably want to stone a radius on end..or that sharp edge is going to scrape your brass.
There is still the problem of pulling a tight pin out of case mouth..& how to hold it in some type of die body? These are hard..but I guess the simplest would be to grind two opposing square edged slots one one end & make a sliding "key" that fits into side of 7/8" threaded holder..and is a close fit in these slots. Might get away with only 1 slot. I'm not sure a simple set screw & "whistle stop" type holder would do it.

You must have missed the part about using a drill press. The chuck would have plenty of power to pull the pin out.

[.22-10-45]

I guess I did miss that part. Getting back to shellholder in alum. block..If he has pins large enough..hole could be drilled and/or reamed for shellholder, and small hole drilled in side of block for pin to hold shell holder in place. large pin used to re-align block, shellholder put in place & pin slipped in side to hold?

[MBTcustom]

Actually, I was thinking of just cutting a slot in the aluminum exactly like what is in the tip of your press ram, with a little spring wire to hold it in place. Snap in, snap out.
But your way would be much easier to machine. I'll look into it.
Using a pin to realign the fixture with the drill press table is exactly what I was thinking.
This would make a killer depriming setup too. Just make a decapping pin exactly like is used in the Lee loader and go to town on those babies.

[largom]

Callahan, Your idea is do-able and it works. I bought a set of pin gages from ENCO that runs from .250 to .500 which were very reasonable in cost just for this use. You will have to radius one end of the pin and I suggest you accept Goodsteel's offer for fabricating a shell-holder plate. You will find other uses for the pins which is a good reason to buy the set rather than individual pins.

Larry

[H.Callahan]

I want to help you get this going, and I think I could help you by making a shellholder holder.
Would you be willing to post pictures in special projects?
I could make you a bar that you can clamp in position to your drill press table and then snap your inserts in and out of it. Then it would be a simple matter of experimenting with the different pins to discover the perfect fit. If nothing else, it gives you a way to find out what size you want your custom M die to be cut to.
At this point, I don't even have the drill press, let alone the pins. I run on a tight budget due to getting screwed over royally by a previous employer (laid off after 25 years, then they defaulted on the pension plan). The reason for the question was kind of a feasibility feeler to see if this might theoretically work. In my life now, I try to look for solutions that can be done with readily obtainable items and not require anything other than basic tools to implement. Fortunately, I have been reloading for decades (late '60s) so I have most of what I need to do general reloading and casting. The rub comes from reading this forum too much. :bigsmyl2: I see all these neat ideas and no way to implement them cheaply. I have known for a while that I have been a bit dissatisfied with my brass expanding capabilities. Fortunately most of my die sets are old and a little more lead friendly than current production, but I still am having issues with some guns that I think may be do to some swagging of bullets when seating.

I truly envy those of you with more resources and skill to just be able to whip out custom parts at the drop of a hat. I was trained as an aircraft mechanic and learned basic lathe/machining work, so I understand what can be done.

[runfiverun]

wouldn't it be easier to build a blank die [from 7/8 x14 rod] that accepted turned down pins [like pilots for a trimmer] and use a set screw.
then you could use your reloading press.
have the expander pin extend below the frame.
and allow the die to float in the presses threads helping align everything.
a complete set-up incliding all the pins would cost something in the 250.99 range.
mainly because the shop set-up would be screw the pins in the jaws and turn down the pins to the desired set screw hole size.
then reset up for the champher on the nose.
and a set up to drill the hole in the 7/8 ths rod and drill/tap the set screw. [which would of course be a recessed hex headed set screw]

[MBTcustom]

The time and effort it would take to turn down all those hardened steel pins would negate the whole idea. Also, like H. Callahan has said, you dont need a whole set, just about ten sizes around each caliber. Half thousandths step sizes could be had by honing down the next up .001 size.

[H.Callahan]

The time and effort it would take to turn down all those hardened steel pins would negate the whole idea. Also, like H. Callahan has said, you dont need a whole set, just about ten sizes around each caliber. Half thousandths step sizes could be had by honing down the next up .001 size.
Half sizes are available ready-made!

[H.Callahan]

wouldn't it be easier to build a blank die [from 7/8 x14 rod] that accepted turned down pins [like pilots for a trimmer] and use a set screw.
then you could use your reloading press.
have the expander pin extend below the frame.
and allow the die to float in the presses threads helping align everything.
a complete set-up incliding all the pins would cost something in the 250.99 range.
mainly because the shop set-up would be screw the pins in the jaws and turn down the pins to the desired set screw hole size.
then reset up for the champher on the nose.
and a set up to drill the hole in the 7/8 ths rod and drill/tap the set screw. [which would of course be a recessed hex headed set screw]
Think primitive. How would you do it if you have no lathe to turn down pins on and no way to precisely drill a hole in the end of a threaded rod or do a set screw. Could this be done with, say, a Chicom drill press? (Educate me. I really do not know.) Also, what size would you turn down the pins and accommodate all pin sizes from .22 to .50 caliber?

Now, if some sort of micro-chuck or collet type system could be jury rigged into an existing die body....

[454PB]

wouldn't it be easier to build a blank die [from 7/8 x14 rod] that accepted turned down pins [like pilots for a trimmer] and use a set screw.
then you could use your reloading press.
have the expander pin extend below the frame.
and allow the die to float in the presses threads helping align everything.
a complete set-up incliding all the pins would cost something in the 250.99 range.
mainly because the shop set-up would be screw the pins in the jaws and turn down the pins to the desired set screw hole size.
then reset up for the champher on the nose.
and a set up to drill the hole in the 7/8 ths rod and drill/tap the set screw. [which would of course be a recessed hex headed set screw]

This is pretty much what I did:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v16/eddard49/Homemadeneckexpanders2.jpg

[MBTcustom]

Half sizes are available ready-made!

What I'm saying is "ya got options"! You originally said you were thinking about buying a whole set, and that's what I was going on. A whole set of pins with the half sizes would be pricey.

[H.Callahan]

What I'm saying is "ya got options"! You originally said you were thinking about buying a whole set, and that's what I was going on. A whole set of pins with the half sizes would be pricey.
I am thinking about a whole set. BUT, if I needed a half size for something or other, with my capabilities at the moment, it would be much easier (and probably only about $3) to get a ready made .0005 pin than 1) modify a whole size pin and 2)probably totally destroy the whole size pin in the process of trying to modify it without the right tools.

454PB, looks fantastic, but I had a good laughing fit imagining me trying to accomplish anything like that! I'd probably have to give up shooting as I am sure I would be missing fingers, at the least, before I was done.

[.22-10-45]

There is another option..most community colleges have night classes for a nominal fee. Often there are standard projects for students to make that require machining time on various different machine tools..I bet you could talk the instructor in letting you make such a set..and learn how to run a lathe, mill. etc. at same time. A detailed drwg. or sketch complete with dimensions would go a long way in convincing him. Many of these shop classes have drill rod and other tool steels available...some even equipped with heat-treat facilities. I have done this in past when between jobs. Best of luck!

[Doc Highwall]

I don't think you would need half sizes.
Accuracy is a combination of several things.
1; A good gun. (Capable of extreme accuracy)
2; A good load. (Either jacketed or cast)
3; A good shooter. (Someone who can shoot Master/High Master scores)
If even one of the things comes up short you will never have a chance of seeing a change good or bad.