45colt BH, please help

[newton]

Ok, so earlier this year I purchased a 45 BH convertible. I got on here and asked a BUNCH of questions and did a lot of research. But I am finding myself back at square one.

Everyone says that the 255 lee mold is a very fine boolit, and that the standard is 8.0-8.3 grains of Unique(depending on who you ask). But I'll be darned if I am having the absolute hardest time with this gun. I remember getting a good load for the 45acp cylinder, but when I went to shoot it the other day I shot a full box of 50 colts I had made up(I made them back earlier this year) according to the 'go to load' and they would not shoot worth a darn.

I know that most of it is me. I really do. But when I am resting this gun solid and taking very careful time to squeeze off each round, and I am only 20 yards away, something has to give with 10"+ groups.

So, please walk me through it one more time. It is a stock BH. 4 5/8" barrel. The throats and bore slugged out perfect. I would have to dig the numbers, but they were spot on.

I want to start all over fresh with the correct lead composition, lube, and then proper loading technique. I know every gun is different, but I figure someone with the same gun(model and barrel length) can start me off good. I have pure lead, WW, and some lino. I have just about all the different lube makings also.

Thanks in advance. I have systematically worked through all my guns so far with finding good plinking and hunting loads. I even am working on some nice accuracy loads for my muzzleloader right now. But the last piece of the puzzle is a good hunting load for my BH. I got the plinking part down, but would like to hunt with it on my side this fall.

[newton]

Oh, I only have Herco and Unique on hand. I have Pyrodex P also, but would like to stay away from it right now unless it is absolutely the best. I do not have the money to try different powders at this time.

[scattershot]

is the ACP load using jacketed bullets? What is the diameter of your cast boolits? I agree, something is wrong if you're getting 10" groups at 20 yards. Check your bore for severe leading, too.

[44MAG#1]

Drop down to 7.0 to 7.5 Unique or 5.6 to 6.0 Bullseye.
Heavy 18.5 gr 2400.
These loads can be used from 250 gr to 270 gr (280gr) in the RCBS 270SAA mold or the Mihec 270 SAA mold.
I use these loads in a BH and a New Vaquero.
Tuesday I shot my New Vaquero at 100 yards offhand I had 10 rounds loaded with 7.5 PowerPistol the first shot slightly low and out to the left (not watching what I was doing).
Next 8 went into 7.5 inches with the 10th dropped to where the first went. Just ignorance on the 1st and 10th shot is all.
This with the 270 Mihec SAA bullet.
Load 10 with 7.0 Unique and 7.5 and try those 2 loads.
Velocity will be in the low to mid 700 fps range.
If heavy is needed go to the 18.5 gr 2400.
5.6 to 6.0 gr of Bullseye is good too.

[Wally]

Ok, so earlier this year I purchased a 45 BH convertible. I got on here and asked a BUNCH of questions and did a lot of research. But I am finding myself back at square one.

Everyone says that the 255 lee mold is a very fine boolit, and that the standard is 8.0-8.3 grains of Unique(depending on who you ask). But I'll be darned if I am having the absolute hardest time with this gun. I remember getting a good load for the 45acp cylinder, but when I went to shoot it the other day I shot a full box of 50 colts I had made up(I made them back earlier this year) according to the 'go to load' and they would not shoot worth a darn.

I know that most of it is me. I really do. But when I am resting this gun solid and taking very careful time to squeeze off each round, and I am only 20 yards away, something has to give with 10"+ groups.

So, please walk me through it one more time. It is a stock BH. 4 5/8" barrel. The throats and bore slugged out perfect. I would have to dig the numbers, but they were spot on.

I want to start all over fresh with the correct lead composition, lube, and then proper loading technique. I know every gun is different, but I figure someone with the same gun(model and barrel length) can start me off good. I have pure lead, WW, and some lino. I have just about all the different lube makings also.

Thanks in advance. I have systematically worked through all my guns so far with finding good plinking and hunting loads. I even am working on some nice accuracy loads for my muzzleloader right now. But the last piece of the puzzle is a good hunting load for my BH. I got the plinking part down, but would like to hunt with it on my side this fall.

I had the same deal with my Ruger BHK .45 Colt...I tried RCBS 250 RF and the 250 Keith as well as the Lyman 454190 and the Lee 250 RF and 252 SWC. The Lee bullets shot the most accuarte. Then I tried a used Lyman 452424...7.5 grains of Red Dot and it was very accurate. Also have a Lee (NLA) 235 WC mold--also very accurate.

Each gun is different..my point is for the Ruger .45 Colt BHK one needs to do a lot of testing to find out what shoots best in it. I never had to do so with any other pistol/caliber and I shoot quite a few. Many feel that the 270 RCBS Keith is the best bullet for it...as so many have said so, I do believe that it probably is.

[Dale53]

I have a 5½" Blackhawk Convertible. Mine shoots well with most any proper load. Now, it mostly gets the Mihec version of the RCBS 45-270-SAA (285 grs solid and 270 grs Hollow point). My general purpose load is 8.5 grs of Unique.

I use WW's+2% tin sized at .452" (my cylinder thoats have been reamed to .4525"). My .45 ACP cylinder shoots just as well.

FWIw
Dale53

[rststeve]

I have SBH Flat top Convertible 4 5/8 I shoot 8 grains Herco 250 grain bullet sized 452. shooting off hand 2 to 2 1/2 inch groups at 20 yards. No leading no problems. If bullets are squirreling out sounds like leading to me.

[Lonegun1894]

I have a 4 5/8" and use either the Lee 250 or 252, and both shoot well loaded over 10.0 grs Unique and sized to .454" and lubed with LLA. I use the same load in other guns, which include other Rugers between 4 5/8" and 7.5" and two leverguns with 16" and 20" barrels. My guns just like it.

[newton]

Thanks for the replies guys. Please keep them coming. I have only shot cast from this gun. I know the factory uses jacketed though to test. The acp shot good but it was with a reduced load of 5 or 6 grains unique. I would have to go look and double check.

So I'm good with the reduced load thing. I want a hunting load now. I have only gone as high as 8.5 unique. I guess I could try higher. When I first got the gun it leaded something horrible. It has since mellowed out. There is some leading in there from the last box of rounds. That leads me to believe its a lube issue or alloy. But I have tried several different combos without success.

But I can try again. So start me off. What alloy? I don't have a hardness tester. What lube recipie? Just straight LLA for full power hunting loads?

I guess in the end I will need to try different bullets but the Lee 255 is so highly talked of. And unique is too. So I am figuring it is down to loading technique, lube, or alloy.

Again, need a hunting round, not a plinker.

[newton]

I guess I'll have to try the 252. It looks like it would be a bit different than the 255 I have. But I am not seeing a Lee mold for 250. Is it one that's discontinued?

[bigboredad]

first thing you need to do is measure the cylinder throats if they are undersized it won't matter what bullet powder combo you try you will always have shotgun like patterns. If your throats checkout ok then you should be good to go bump the unique up to 8.5 or even 9gr for herco double check this but I believe you could easily go up to 9.5gr herco is a great power for the big old .45 colt it's all I shoot and Ruger blackhawks are what I shoot them in. if the throats are right finding a load isn't that hard just relax line up your sites and they all go where they should. But if like you say it's mostly you then you could spend your whole life chasing your tail. practice practice there is no short cuts dry fire at home and make your range time count don't go to the range just to yank the trigger and make noise

[RobS]

I shoot Herco loads with nice results. The BH 45 colt is capable of great accuracy a few have already said throats over bore groove diameter sure makes things easier to find success. My throats are .4525 and I have great experiences with .453-.454 diameter boolits providing the front drive band isn't too wide preventing chambering of the loaded round. I shoot a LFN style 260 grain boolit as well as 310 and 345 grain LFN style boolits with great success but only shoot Herco powder in the lighter two boolits.

The Lee 255 grain boolit has a short nose so more of the body is in the case limiting the case volume, something to consider as you look at load data. Considering that you should try a variety of loads to see what the revolver prefers. I would start out with 7 grains of Unique or 8 of Herco and run up to 10 grains of Unique or 10.5 grains of Herco and see where your best groups are.

Also, I've had better luck accuracy wise with regards to quicker or higher energy powders when I use a tougher alloy to keep the boolit from skidding the lands of the rifling. Water quenched WW's are what I tend to use for this type of application. I also will use a plain base GC when pushing upper ends with the quicker powders especially if I plan on using softer alloys.

I know that it costs more to use slower powders but if you want to develop rounds that are more than target or plinker rounds in my experience it's often times easier to use slower powders to develop accuracy at the higher end velocities.

[stubshaft]

Did you check the barrel for constriction where it screws into the frame?

[44MAG#1]

An important question has not been asked and that is : How good a shot is Newton to begin with.
10 inch groups at 20 yards a smoothbore ought to do that well.
Newton, just how good are you as a pistol shot. don't care about your ability with a rifle just a handgun.
Something doesn't smell right.

[newton]

first thing you need to do is measure the cylinder throats if they are undersized it won't matter what bullet powder combo you try you will always have shotgun like patterns. If your throats checkout ok then you should be good to go bump the unique up to 8.5 or even 9gr for herco double check this but I believe you could easily go up to 9.5gr herco is a great power for the big old .45 colt it's all I shoot and Ruger blackhawks are what I shoot them in. if the throats are right finding a load isn't that hard just relax line up your sites and they all go where they should. But if like you say it's mostly you then you could spend your whole life chasing your tail. practice practice there is no short cuts dry fire at home and make your range time count don't go to the range just to yank the trigger and make noise

Throats are great. If memory serves me well they mic'd out at .4525". If I can find the older post I could tell you for sure. I also have it written down somewhere, just not sure where. I'll try the higher dose Herco. What kind of lube do you use?

I do know that it is part me. I really do. But not that big of groups when I have a good solid rest. I can get down to <2" groups with the plinking load when I am rested. So there has to be more too it.

[newton]

I shoot Herco loads with nice results. The BH 45 colt is capable of great accuracy a few have already said throats over bore groove diameter sure makes things easier to find success. My throats are .4525 and I have great experiences with .453-.454 diameter boolits providing the front drive band isn't too wide preventing chambering of the loaded round. I shoot a LFN style 260 grain boolit as well as 310 and 345 grain LFN style boolits with great success but only shoot Herco powder in the lighter two boolits.

The Lee 255 grain boolit has a short nose so more of the body is in the case limiting the case volume, something to consider as you look at load data. Considering that you should try a variety of loads to see what the revolver prefers. I would start out with 7 grains of Unique or 8 of Herco and run up to 10 grains of Unique or 10.5 grains of Herco and see where your best groups are.

Also, I've had better luck accuracy wise with regards to quicker or higher energy powders when I use a tougher alloy to keep the boolit from skidding the lands of the rifling. Water quenched WW's are what I tend to use for this type of application. I also will use a plain base GC when pushing upper ends with the quicker powders especially if I plan on using softer alloys.

I know that it costs more to use slower powders but if you want to develop rounds that are more than target or plinker rounds in my experience it's often times easier to use slower powders to develop accuracy at the higher end velocities.


I have thought about doing a WW alloy with some lino mixed in and then water dropped to get that hardness up there to see if it helps. I know that when I was doing the testing back when I first got it I found a harder alloy was better. I forget if I had got the lino after that or before that.

[newton]

Did you check the barrel for constriction where it screws into the frame?

Yes, and there is some. I have seriously contemplated fire lapping. Do you think that the constriction would cause that big a spread in my groups?

[newton]

An important question has not been asked and that is : How good a shot is Newton to begin with.
10 inch groups at 20 yards a smoothbore ought to do that well.
Newton, just how good are you as a pistol shot. don't care about your ability with a rifle just a handgun.
Something doesn't smell right.

I am not good at all. ;-) Seriously, this is my first pistol. I have shot pistols before, but this is the first one for me to actually shoot on a regular basis.

However, I did hand the gun off to a guy who is a pistol shooter at the range the other day and he said something is not right also. On top of that, as I have stated previously, I am not just shooting off hand one hand. I have a good solid rest. Focusing on the front sight. Tight grip. I know that the tight groups will come with practice, I have seen what 45's are capable of. That's why I am not trying my hand at anything greater than 20 yards till I get this down.

But I feel that at 20 yards I should at the very least have a 4"-5" group when rested. Trust me, I do stink, but there is some other smell somewhere else also. That's what I am trying to find out.

[brotherdarrell]

My go-to loads for general shooting with my BH convertible is 5.8 gr Reddot under the Lee 255 rnfp and RCBS 270-saa cast from just about any alloy harder than pure, sized .452. These are the only two boolits I have got acceptable accuracy with. Both give me groups around 3" @ 50 yds w/redot sight. Any other boolit/powder combination opens everything up to a pattern. Go figure.

My factory throats would just allow a Hornady .452" xtp to pass through on both cylinders.

brotherdarrell

[44MAG#1]

Well i wish you the best of luck.
But before I would try some exotic remedies I would work up on the load of Unique and/or Herco and see what it will do.
What kind of pistol shooter was the other guy? Do you KNOW he is a good shot by actually seeing his targets?

[pmer]

Newton, does the revolver shoot jacketed bullets ok? It might be good to compare.

[Lonegun1894]

I apologize. I just checked the box the mould came in and I have 252gr and 255gr, not 252 and 250. I'm not sure where I came up with the 250gr from, but somehow I did. Sorry for the confusion.

[newton]

Newton, does the revolver shoot jacketed bullets ok? It might be good to compare.

Never tried them. I have been thinking about it just to see if that's the deal. I HATE to drop $30 bucks on 50 bullets though. I would much rather buy a new mold.

[newton]

Well i wish you the best of luck.
But before I would try some exotic remedies I would work up on the load of Unique and/or Herco and see what it will do.
What kind of pistol shooter was the other guy? Do you KNOW he is a good shot by actually seeing his targets?

Thanks. I think I will try the uploads of Unique and Herco. I know not many use the 4 5/8" guns so maybe they need a stouter charge versus the same gun in a 5.5" or longer configuration.

He did not have a pistol at the range that day. But I know him. We were there sighting in one of his rifles.

I know you think its all me. That's ok. I will not pretend to be a pistol shooter. But I do know its not all me and that's what I am trying to figure out. I want to remove all the other things first and then focus on me. Once I can get a decent group from a very solid rest then I will focus on my shooting skills. But how can one know whether or not his shooting skills are good, improving or not, if he cannot see it happening?

If the load I am using is throwing them all over the target then it just serves to frustrate me. I'll never be able to tell whether or not my shooting skills are good or bad, it would just be a matter of luck where the bullet hits.

[Wally]

Never tried them. I have been thinking about it just to see if that's the deal. I HATE to drop $30 bucks on 50 bullets though. I would much rather buy a new mold.

Very wise...best to experiment with bullet molds until you find one that shoots good in your Ruger BHK. I had to do so and it did take some time and effort. If a bullet mold doesn't perform well you can either sell or trade it. As per my previous post it took me sometime to do so. The Lee 250 RF and 252 SWC are relatively inexpensive and I have found them to be quite good. The 452424 is my favorite....all because I just like how it shoots and looks. I have found that light bullets do not shoot well for me in mine. Many laud the 270 RCBS SAA...so many have done so that IMHO you cannot go wrong with that one.

[jmort]

I use 9.2 grins of Unique. I think Unique is best at higher end. Burns cleaner and better accuracy. I would send my .45 caliber cylinder to http://www.cylindersmith.com/ - for the $$$ it is a fantastic way to ensure proper cylinder throat dimensions.

[newton]

Very wise...best to experiment with bullet molds until you find one that shoots good in your Ruger BHK. I had to do so and it did take some time and effort. If a bullet mold doesn't perform well you can either sell or trade it. As per my previous post it took me sometime to do so. The Lee 250 RF and 252 SWC are relatively inexpensive and I have found them to be quite good. The 452424 is my favorite....all because I just like how it shoots and looks. I have found that light bullets do not shoot well for me in mine. Many laud the 270 RCBS SAA...so many have done so that IMHO you cannot go wrong with that one.


I have heard a lot on the 452424. The Lee 452 looks a lot like it. I know that it has more bearing surface than the 255 I have. That would have to make some difference.

[newton]

I use 9.2 grins of Unique. I think Unique is best at higher end. Burns cleaner and better accuracy. I would send my .45 caliber cylinder to http://www.cylindersmith.com/ - for the $$$ it is a fantastic way to ensure proper cylinder throat dimensions.

No need. I would just waste shipping because he would send it right back, the dimensions are what he reams them too. I checked into all of that stuff even before I bought the gun thinking I might have to do it.

Dimensions on the gun are as perfect as your going to get. Fit is a little to be desired with the constriction. I think I will try some unsized boolits also. I have been sizing them to .452".

[Wally]

I have heard a lot on the 452424. The Lee 452 looks a lot like it. I know that it has more bearing surface than the 255 I have. That would have to make some difference.

Both are good....the Lee cost much less and shoots very well for me. It has a more narrow front driving band and a much shorter nose.

[skeettx]

OK, here is what to do
Cast the bullets of straight wheel weights, not quenched
Alox lube, I use Javalina
Sized .452

Load 10 round with 8.5 of Unique

Load two rounds with dead primers and no powder.

Put the loaded ammo (10 rounds) and dead ammo (2 rounds) in a brown paper bag and shake it up. Load the gun from the bag with your eyes closed.

Now shoot 2 groups and let us know the results.

Play this game and you might be surprised :)

Mike

[newton]

OK, here is what to do
Cast the bullets of straight wheel weights, not quenched
Alox lube, I use Javalina
Sized .452

Load 10 round with 8.5 of Unique

Load two rounds with dead primers and no powder.

Put the loaded ammo (10 rounds) and dead ammo (2 rounds) in a brown paper bag and shake it up. Load the gun from the bag with your eyes closed.

Now shoot 2 groups and let us know the results.

Play this game and you might be surprised :)

Mike

Very nice. I like the game. I find it interesting because I have forgot how many shots I have taken before and found myself dropping the hammer on an empty one. Flinch? I have seen myself do it before. I know that it still seems as if I am the link in this whole equation. And trust me, the only thing that keeps me from really believing its me also is the lube I am using. But I think that it is part lube and part alloy.

Ok, ok. Its also part me. But honestly, how much do people think that a solid rested gun can shoot off at 20 yards? 10" or more? I just cannot see that. Not when other loads did just fine.

[newton]

Ok. Here is what I am going to do tonight. I am going to cast some boolits from WW and water drop. That should get me around 18-20 BHN. Then I am going to make a 50/50 lube. Beeswax and LLA. Then I am going to load with 10 grains of Unique and 10.5 of Herco.

Sound about right? From my research this is high pressure, but should only be about a 1/3 of what it takes to blow up a BH. Should be right around 22,000-23,000 CUP. Unless I am not seeing it right most BH's are blown up around 60,000+.

One thing I have seen talked about, but a lot of different opinions, is the fluted cylinder. I am pretty sure mine is fluted. I'll have to check to make sure though. But some say it makes a difference. Any idea?

[stubshaft]

Yes, and there is some. I have seriously contemplated fire lapping. Do you think that the constriction would cause that big a spread in my groups?

I bought my last BH from a guy that was getting horrible groups at 25 yds. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5" - 6". I lapped out the constriction and got it to shoot in the 1.5" - 2" range with a variety of boolits and powders. He wanted to buy it back...

[fcvan]

I have read some great articles on the strength of a RBH in .45 colt as it relates to the .44 mag. Fluted or un fluted cylinders don't change the thickness of the cylinder between the chambers. The. .45 has less metal than the .44 and therefore not as stout. The custom revolvers with 5 shot cylinders put more meat back between the chambers and offset the bolt stop notch. I have loaded my Ruger to the point of discomfort but below listed max loads. I've got to replace the checkered grips it came with, it's like a rasp file on my hands under recoil! From everything I've read, .45 Colt loads will take pretty much any North American game, and .45 Colt +P loads even better. The RBH can exceed +P loads and so I'm sticking closer to +P level. I'll load occasionally for more oomph, I'm just not going for a steady diet of oomph through the Ruger. The single shot carbine, that's a different story. More oomph is fun in the Classic Carbine!

[44MAG#1]

The 10 of Unique and 10.5 of Herco isn't going to hurt the Blackhawk. Just go ahead and load them and try them.
The fluted cylinder is a moot point. You are thinking too hard.
Try different loads and get your results.
This really isn't rocket science. If you have a decent lube try it. I use the white label lube and it is good and cheap. Store bought 50/50 beeswax and Alox is good.
Just try load developement . And work on yourself too.

[newton]

I bought my last BH from a guy that was getting horrible groups at 25 yds. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 5" - 6". I lapped out the constriction and got it to shoot in the 1.5" - 2" range with a variety of boolits and powders. He wanted to buy it back...

So you actually got those horrible groups yourself, or did you just lap it without shooting it?

[Gray Fox]

I have had good results with 8.0 of 231 under the Lee 250 RNFP in my Blackhawks, S&W Mountain Gun as well as two Rossi rifles. It's not real hot, but is about all one needs for deer, small hogs or two legged critters. GF

[skeettx]

Also, try some not quenched :)

[stubshaft]

So you actually got those horrible groups yourself, or did you just lap it without shooting it?

I shot it first and got lousy accuracy too. Not quite as bad as the seller did, but nowhere near what I knew the gun was capable of. It was not the first time I've had to lap out a constriction in that area. The theory is that the barrel will size the boolit down and will rattle down the bore after clearing it.

[subsonic]

Here is a novel idea....

Load 6 rds each at:

6gr
6.5gr
7gr
7.5g
and why go higher? You know the 8-8.5gr loads suck.... Herco, unique, whatever.

Try them all and see which ones group better. If you find that increasing powder charge increases group sizes, you are likely stripping the rifling.

Then do this while loading:
Use large pistol non-magnum primers
Trim the brass all to exactly the same length
bell the mouths of the cases so that the boolits will just barely start into them, then start them straightly by hand before seating them
Make sure you can see the boolit through the brass once seated - think a snake ate a can of soup - if you don't see that, something is wrong with the neck tension
Then only just barely crimp in the crimp groove - do not get crazy

report back

[skeettx]

OH!! YES!!
With the 10 grain Unique load, my cylinder pin was moving out of
position, so I installed a Belt Mountain pin

http://www.beltmountain.com/images2/knurled_lockgun.jpg

[newton]

Well I got home today and had a little bit of time. Cast some from what I think is WW. Pretty sure. Anyways, water dropped them and then lubed in 50/50 beeswax/LLA.

Loaded over 10.5 herco. Got a 2" group. Two shots were about an inch apart. Got excited, rushed back in to make 3 more. Came back out and it was dark. Tried to shoot, but they did not hit well. I was really rushing myself.

But there are two th

[RobS]

It takes an antimony alloy time to age whether it be air cooled or water quenched. What I'm saying is if you water quenched and then lubed, loaded and shot all withing an hour or two the hardness of your quenched boolit would probably be around 9-10 BHN. An air cooled boolit an hour after will be around 7-8 BHN. WW boolits typically age to a shootable hardness in a week or better two week time frame.

[44MAG#1]

Water quenched bullets will reach probabaly 70 percent of their max hardness in no more than 36 hours with 24 being enough to get to a hardness that is more than enough unless one is going to slam their bullets hard in to the rifling.
BHN testing will prove this.
Air cooled WW are a different story and does need probabaly 2 weeks to reach max hardness.
15 to 18 BHN, measured not guessed, is plenty hard for most situations except extreme.
I have gotten around 30 BHN with water quenched WW if done right.

[skeettx]

BUT, we might NOT want hard here
Mike

[44MAG#1]

We may not want hard here. We want to experiment. We can experiment with hard, medium hard and soft. We have to start somewhere so what is wrong with starting out with the hard first?
This is up to the experimenter where he wants to start.
Lets not get into the debate of super hard, hard, medium hard, medium soft and soft.
If in his quest he finds soft the way to go then he will know.
Speculation is just that speculation. A through test of the loads will reveal what the gun likes.
My problem is with his first post of 10+ inch groups at 25 yards. A smoothbore shaould have done better.
That tells me something is amiss.
Also I have a Blackhawk with small throats with a .452 groove that with the Lee 255 RNFP at 15-16 BHN with 9.5 gr Unique will stay under 2 inches at 25 yards with 10 rounds if I do my part which is about all I can do with Iron Sights unless i am using a homemade diopter for my glasses.
So on and so forth.
10+ inches at 25 yards????????????

[newton]

I forgot about the age thing. I know I played around with hardness earlier this year. I should have taken better notes. But it does tell me that soft is not too bad.

In all honesty. After I started this post and then got to thinking out loud, I am guessing the whole issue was with my lube. I forget the recipie I used, but it was a hard one. This 50/50 is soft and sticky.

One thing I'm going to look closer at is the constriction. I don't have it with me right now, but I remember that there was some 'smearing' that started about 1" into the barrel. I do not think it is lead because it wipes out. And when I had a leading issue before it was around the forcing come and the first part of the barrel(too soft alloy I think). So when I saw this my mind immediately thought of the constriction and what might be happening because of it.

Either way, I'm going to do more testing but I am feeling a whole lot better.

[Lonegun1894]

Just keep playing with different variables while changing only one thing at a time til you figure out what it wants. Keep good notes like has been said, and all you are out is a few minutes to clean it afterward. They're great guns, which is why I have several, and like them all.

[1bluehorse]

Check the timing at lockup...(cylinder lines up with the bore)..not a common problem but I did have one Ruger that was bad..wouldn't shoot anything very well. Ruger fixed it..by the way Ruger was/is notorious for barrel constriction at the threads, I've firelapped everyone that I've owned (6)(kit from Beartooth Bullets) and a few that belong to friends. By the way all of the above also had undersized throats that got reamed. ( bought the reamer, handle and pilots from Brownells) these guns will now shoot better than I can...with most any "common" 45 colt load..one of the most accurate loads I've ever shot from any of my Rugers was 11.5gr Blue Dot under 260 Lee RNFP (what mine cast at)...also my lube is nothing fancy, just White Label 50/50 ...good stuff. As an aside for firelapping it will also help with leading issues and I've noticed a slight increase in fps from before..not alot but some. Enjoy the journey..:popcorn:

[newton]

I have thought about cylinder gap, but not the lockup. How do you check that? Isn't lead smearing to one side or the other on the cone a symptom?

Thanks

[1bluehorse]

I have thought about cylinder gap, but not the lockup. How do you check that? Isn't lead smearing to one side or the other on the cone a symptom?

Thanks

Gun empty, cock hammer, shine a light down the bore, or use a wood dowel and run it down the bore (all around the edge ) and see if it hits anything :shock: (edge of cyl)

[newton]

Gun empty, cock hammer, shine a light down the bore, or use a wood dowel and run it down the bore (all around the edge ) and see if it hits anything :shock: (edge of cyl)

Gotcha. I'll try that. I'm sure it will be a sick feeling if I feel anything. I hope I don't.

[Tom W.]

When I first got my 5.5 inch convertible, I bought a box of locally cast bullets from the gun shop, as I didn't have a mold at the time for that revolver. They didn't do well at all. I tinkered, bought and tried and traded molds, different lubes, and after quite some time, I settled on the RCBS 45-270- SAA mold. It shoots really well from my revolver, and I use CR for bullet lube. For the acp cylinder I'll use the Lee 228 gr 1R mold, but I'd really like to get a 200 gr swc from RCBS, as I'll be using it more in my Colt 1911 than the Ruger.
I use the Blackhawk as a serious "fun gun", to take on walks and plink with , but still have the power and accuracy needed should I decide to hunt with it.

[oldfart1956]

Newton just for giggles try this; load and shoot a few test groups using just 1 chamber. I switched over to this because what I'm searching for is the best load and using 6 different chambers (along with sucky handgun skills) gammahooched a lot of my results. Minor differences in the chambers can make big changes on the target Once you get a load that is up to par start filling the cylinder. It also forces you to slow down, not that your rushing....I'm just sayin'. Keep working at it and keep a log. I've gone from 8in. groups at 25yds. to 1 1/4in. groups at 75 which is nothing short of a miracle with my skill-set. And all thanks to tips/suggestions from right here. The next best tip....is to listen to what they're saying and do it. Audie...the Oldfart...

[newton]

Ok, I hate to bother people yet once again, but everyone has been so helpful in the past I hope there is still a little advice left for me.

I did some more testing last night. I really am wanting to get this gun hammered out in the next couple of weeks in time for deer season so I can use it as a close up gun.

I loaded some more of the 10.5 Herco and they were all over the place. I am shooting through one cylinder to take out that variable. I got back and looked at it in the light and there was a very thick layer of lead just ahead of the forcing cone, right where the frame is. Not a speck past there until you get to the muzzle and just a smear there.

I did another short round after cleaning the gun good with 10 Herco and same thing, just a little less, although I only shot 4 as compared to 6. So then I cleaned real good again and slugged the barrel.

It is tight at the muzzle, loose in the middle, and really tight at the frame. Tight enough I had to use a hammer to get the slug past the frame. I did measure it before I pushed it all the way through the frame(pushed it back out the muzzle) and after going through the frame there is almost a thousandth of an inch restriction going on.

So, I know that it is causing some issues with my boolits. All I know to do is either fire lap or shoot jacketed rounds. How many jacketed rounds would it take to alleviate the problem do you guys think? If its more than 50 I might as well get the lapping kit and be done with it.

Thoughts, suggestions?

[Lonegun1894]

I would be very tempted to just firelap it and be done with it, as that should improve performance with both cast and jacketed. I bought my .45 BH in my younger and dumber days, back when I thought that cast boolits were inefficient and just wouldn't work. Now, I bought mine used, so dont know how many rounds it had fired through it by the previous owner, but I fired 3-4K before i saw the light and switched to cast, and still had to fire a few lapping rounds to get it just right where I wanted it. Now, I had less than .001 constriction, but back then I also had no bills or anything to worry about so many of my range sessions consisted of 3-500rds of cast fired, and it would lead up pretty bad after that many rounds even with such slight constriction. Now, I size to .454" since my cylinder will accept them, and get no leading whatsoever and good accuracy.

Do me one favor though. Before you take my advice, see what everyone else says because there's always more than one way to skin this cat, and many (if not most) here know more about this than I do and have many more years experience with it.

[newton]

Thanks for the advice. I am highly considering trying some unsized boolits, or even knurling some up. But my throats are .4525" and anything larger than that is just going to get sized down as it goes through the cylinder.

But the knurling may help with the lube dept. Yea, I think I am going to try that tonight actually.

Still yet, there is a major constriction that cannot be good for leading or the accuracy dept. So it simply has to go in my opinion. I guess LBT is the only fire lapping way out there?

[1bluehorse]

Thanks for the advice. I am highly considering trying some unsized boolits, or even knurling some up. But my throats are .4525" and anything larger than that is just going to get sized down as it goes through the cylinder.

But the knurling may help with the lube dept. Yea, I think I am going to try that tonight actually.

Still yet, there is a major constriction that cannot be good for leading or the accuracy dept. So it simply has to go in my opinion. I guess LBT is the only fire lapping way out there?

Beartooth Bullets sells a lapping kit (that's the one I've used) with everthing you need....a very good instuction book, bullets, (you can also just cast your own, use a RNFP at 10 to 12 BHN) (do not size) steel plates (for rolling), lapping compound and a big bolt for bullet seating. Cost is somewhere around 50 bucks but you'll have enough compound to do several guns if you need, (I did). Check out the website and look in the Tech notes or Tips (?)for firelapping a stainless Ruger in 36 rounds...I've used this method for the last 4 pistols I've firelapped and it works..I've never had the pleasure of buying a Ruger 45 colt with the proper diminsions, cyl throats were always to small, (the best so far has been one of the stainless Bisley BH runs and the throats on that one measured .451). They may be doing a better job today...there's quite a bit of info on firelapping out there, some like it some don't..I like it. Guns I've done: 6 Ruger 45 colt Vaqueros, (the originals) 2 Ruger BHs in 45 colt, one was the Bisley above, 2 Cimmeron 357mags, my old 3 screw 44 mag SBH, Puma 45 colt rifle, Puma 357 Rifle, a new Ruger BH in 44mag (a friends). EVERYONE OF THESE GUNS had varying degrees of barrel constrictions. After firelapping, all had accuracy improvement to some degree, some dramatically. ALL have less leading issues, (none in fact) and all picked up a little more speed...it ain't hard, but the first time is kinda worrisome....

[Groo]

Groo here
How does the gun shoot with 45acp hardball?????
How does the gun shoot with jacketed or plated bullets.
Are you resting the butt of the gun grip on the bench/bag/rest/? : DON'T:
Are you getting leading down the bore [ Barrel thread choke?].

[newton]

Groo here
How does the gun shoot with 45acp hardball?????
How does the gun shoot with jacketed or plated bullets.
Are you resting the butt of the gun grip on the bench/bag/rest/? : DON'T:
Are you getting leading down the bore [ Barrel thread choke?].

Never shot anything, myself, but lead through it. I know the factory uses jacketed ammo though. I do not wish to shoot jacketed unless it will help the situation in some way.

I was resting the butt of the gun on the bench. I'll try again with it not. What is the best way to get a solid rest with a pistol?

No lead down the barrel. Major up at the cone/frame and a little at the muzzle. Both places show respective constriction/restriction when slugging.

[MT Chambers]

I've always liked the Lyman 255 gr Keith bullet, cast kinda soft, and if I had problems, I'd try them sized .454". When I had a BH convertable the .45 Colt loads shot better then the ACP loads.

[Wolfer]

My new Vaq had a bad thread restriction when I got it. Shot ok but had to clean the lead out ever 50 rds. Like yours I could tap a 454 round ball in the muzzle for about 2" then it would free fall with a thunk to the threads. I firelaped 60 rds thru it to no avail. Finally broke down and lead lapped it until I got a good even push all the way thru. This pretty much killed a Saturday. Now I clean it ever 300-500 rds but it really doesn't need it.

Have you tried any hollow base like the rem or win factory boolits in it?

[newton]

My new Vaq had a bad thread restriction when I got it. Shot ok but had to clean the lead out ever 50 rds. Like yours I could tap a 454 round ball in the muzzle for about 2" then it would free fall with a thunk to the threads. I firelaped 60 rds thru it to no avail. Finally broke down and lead lapped it until I got a good even push all the way thru. This pretty much killed a Saturday. Now I clean it ever 300-500 rds but it really doesn't need it.

Have you tried any hollow base like the rem or win factory boolits in it?

Thanks for the info. I had hand lapping suggested, but I had honestly never thought of it. Sounds like I need to think about it more. It really is the only place on the barrel that I need to work on a lot. Then I think the rest could benifit from just a cylinder or two of regular lapping. But that constriction is really messing me up.

I've not tried anything myself except for the lee 255 grain boolits. Although I did get some 230 grain tumble lube that I shot in the acp cylinder. They shot good.

Honestly I am bound and determined to make the lee boolits shoot right. Tell me about your hand lapping please.

[Wolfer]

I have the lapping compound. It's the wheeler kit that midway sells. I melted a pot of pure lead. I use an old bore brush with most of the bristles cut off except for a few on the end away from the threads. Set a patch on the bore and push the brush down until just the threads are sticking out. Center in the bore as best you can and pour your lead in but don't let it come to the top of the barrel. Screw a rod to it and slide it about 2/3 out. Wipe the course grit on it and start scrubbing. When it wears out just stick it in the pot and melt it off and start over. You can easily feel the tight spots and can work on them. When you get it evened out clean all the grit out and start over with the next finer grit. Then repeat with the fine grit.
This is quite a bit of work but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

I forgot to mention a light oil like kroil helps after you get your lap poured. Leave the bore dry to pour your lap.

[TCLouis]

Lee 255 and 6.5 Red Dot

780 fps or so

Accurate

[newton]

Did some lapping today. I got some dremel polish. It is 400 grit. Cast some pure lead lee boolits. Made a couple steel plates to roll them. Rolled them and shot with ~3 grains herco. You can see the boolit fly out. One of the last ones of the night stuck.

I stopped after 30 rounds the first time. I don't want to go too far. Shot some normal loads and still got leading. However, it was not as much and only at the frame restriction. The rest of the barrel is great now. Still some constriction going on so I ran out of light after 18 more.

The restriction is starting to go away. I'm getting a good taper. I just am really curious how much it's going to take and what the downside is to the amount that I'm having to remove to get the constriction out. I am going to do more tomorrow. I have some ww boolits I may use. Not sure if they would do a better job or worse?

I'm going to be glad when this is over. I just want to shoot a target and hit it most of the time. The test shots I did seemed a tad better believe it or not. I'm shrinking the pattern...er...group.

Thoughts?

[Wolfer]

I believe with 400 grit you will have a hard time going too far. Something else, when you get it slicked out slug your bore and you'll be surprised at how little it's changed.

[newton]

I believe with 400 grit you will have a hard time going too far. Something else, when you get it slicked out slug your bore and you'll be surprised at how little it's changed.

Yea, it does look like its been shot a lot now though. Do you mean the dimensions won't change much? I am almost positive that constriction is about .001". That's a lot of metal to take off.

I tried 6 rounds this morning of my normal bollit/lube. Wdww and 50/50 beeswax/LLA. 8.5 grains Unique. They still shot all over and after the 6 I had considereable leading. I'm even shooting at 20 yards, 60 feet, instead of the normal 25.

Then I think to myself that I am getting zero leading while firelapping. And the only "lube" is the paste. Of course I'm only pushing them 500 fps? But they are pure lead also. So I load the same charge under an unsized boolit, wdww, but I lube with 50/50 beeswax/lard. It's my muzzleloading lube. Really sticky and very soft.

Low and behold they all hit on the same side of the paper, verticle spread was 8" and horizontal was 3". However, it is still leading the barrel right after the cone. Most of the lead is on the right side interestingly enough. Almost no lead on the left, and a little on the top and bottom. But that is the side of the barrel that has the ejector attached. I wonder if it has torqued it some or something?

I'm going to do more lapping I think. And I'll work up some different alloys. I sure wish I could figure this out.

[canyon-ghost]

Make very sure it is extremely clean, use a bronze brush and mineral spirits, patch and follow with an oiled patch. If you get thread crush fouling, you'll need to scrub with bronze and leave it oiled to loosen the fouling. I like mineral spirits as a solvent, it's inexpensive.

Another thought, any abrasive polishes faster when pushed harder. But, I don't think the pressure will let you go too far.

[1bluehorse]

O.K., first off pure lead is to soft...12bhn is about perfect, ww with a little pure added. Make sure you are rolling the bullets long enough to impregnate the compound. I do 4 at a time for 3 to 4 minutes, don't wipe off the excess compound, if it fills the lube grooves thats great. Load them nose down and flush with the case. (no resizing of the cases) After you shoot a cyl full (6) take a bore brush with Kroil or a good oil (I actually use cutting oil) swab the bore vigourously and leave the mess in there, don't swab it out. Six more and repeat. Shoot at a target, this not only tells you the bullets are exiting the barrel but will also tell you when things are "tightening" up.. when you get to this point, clean the gun really good and check the bore..if the constriction(s) are gone/or you're happy with the groups take and old bore brush, wrap a cotton patch around it for a tight fit in the bore, soak the patch with lapping compound and "stroke" the bore 100 times, do it as fast as you can, you should feel heat from the barrel. At this point the bore should have a nice taper and will look like a mirror....now you can condition the barrel as you wish, as it is now a "clean" slate...

P.S. your load sounds about right...just enough to exit the barrel, I use 3.5gr 231...

[newton]

I ran 18 more through. Total is 60 now. At first, first 30, I was leaving them guped up. I was also applying compound with a qtip inside the cone at the start of the rifling after each cylinder full. I can tell a big difference than when I started. I am also seeing the factory finish start to wear at the muzzle. I have heard that's when you should stop, and I have for now.

The restriction is still there, but I can push through it with my hand instead of a hammer now. Got a real nice taper to the muzzle though. I am going to shoot a cylinder through of regular loads and see what happens.

One thing I ran across is that I might need to seat my boolits out a little more than I am. I am crimping in the crimp groove, but could see where I could set them out a tad farther. Anyone ever run across this?

Also I was misspoken when I said there was zero leading. There is some, but it wipes out. What I can see is that it is very obvious that it is blown into the barrel. You can see it kind of like a spray pattern in the bore. Its very interesting. So the fire lapping is ok. Always a bit nerve racking and I don't doubt it will cut down on the barrel life, but my plan is to only shoot lead. Otherwise I would just leave it and buy jacketed. If I ever get rich and decide to only shoot jacketed then I'm sure I'll have enough money to buy another gun. I figure this barrel will last my lifetime shooting lead.

[skeettx]

OK, give this a try,
use your present mould, pure wheel weights, no water quench, Alox 50/50 lube, normal standard load of any kind
or 7 grains of Unique

Try and report back
Mike

[newton]

OK, give this a try,
use your present mould, pure wheel weights, no water quench, Alox 50/50 lube, normal standard load of any kind
or 7 grains of Unique

Try and report back
Mike

I'll go into more detail later, but I did try this to an extent. All but the water quenched ww. It gets a lot more leading than the exact same thing except with the BP lube. So my thoughts are to try the same thing again except for a softer alloy. I think the softer alloy and the soft lube are the trick.

The lube only has to last 4 5/8". That's not much. But this whole thing is still giving good indication that the restriction is still playing with me.

More to come later.

[Wolfer]

In my expierence thread restrictions are hard to firelap out. I wouldn't worry about barrel life because your taking just as much off the bore as you are the lands. These guns are probably good for more than 40,000 rds of cast I suspect( don't really know )
If you can drill a 3/16" hole in the base 1/8" deep and make a hollow base out of a few as long as their soft they should bump back up after they pass the threads.
That would be too much trouble for me, I'd just keep working on the restriction.

[newton]

So back to yesterday. I shot 3, 6 round tests, cleaning good between each one. All the tests were done with the same boolit-unsized, and powder charge. I do think now that a softer boolit is going to be the way to go. At least it wont hurt to try.

The first group was with the bp lube and crimp at crimp groove. That was the first time I actually felt good about shooting this gun with full house loads. When I first got the gun I got a good plinking load that I can shoot 2" groups with and little leading. But I want to use this thing for hunting also and need something going faster than 650 fps. Anyways, very little leading, but enough that it took a bit of scrubbing to get out. Nothing like it was doing before. But it was actually grouping on one side of the paper.

So then I try the seating it out further approach I asked about earlier. I seated at the top of the last true lube groove, with the bp lube. I think the OAL was 1.75". The downside to this is that they have to be pressed, or actually tapped, into the chamber. The unsized boolit is still a smidgen larger than the throats. This group shot great with what seemed to be just a tad less leading. However, it was on the same side of the paper, and the same group size minus a hair.

The last 6 I shot were with the alox/beeswax lube, normal seating depth. I did change the sights and the group moved to the center of the paper. About the same group size, except the last couple getting out of control I guess from the leading that was happening. There was a lot more leading than the bp lube counterparts.

But all of this is really informing me of whats going on. I have said it more than once, I am not the greatest when it comes to handgun shooting. Especially with a short barrel. But there were a lot of people trying to blame my situation on my shooting skills and I highly doubt that me shooting the gun about 100 times this weekend between firelapping and test loads has reduced my group from 12"+ down to nearly 5"-6" and under.

I must have just picked a real dandy to buy. That constriction was, and still is a little, really playing games with my head. I am almost positive that the reason the bp lube works so well is it flows a lot easier and is providing a better seal when that boolit is being squeezed down and before it gets bumped up again. The alox/beeswax would be a good lube if the constriction was totally gone.

I know from slugging that it is less than half of what it was before. I do think I will run some more laps down the barrel. The rifling is still looking great, just rounded right after the forcing cone. And my groups are shrinking each time I test. So obviously something is going good.

I suppose as long as I continue to lap, then test, I will be ok. I just cannot see any other way around it other than loading jacketed ammo which I simply do not want to do. I'll keep this up to date. My goal is to have it 'ironed out' by the weekend.

[newton]

In my expierence thread restrictions are hard to firelap out. I wouldn't worry about barrel life because your taking just as much off the bore as you are the lands. These guns are probably good for more than 40,000 rds of cast I suspect( don't really know )
If you can drill a 3/16" hole in the base 1/8" deep and make a hollow base out of a few as long as their soft they should bump back up after they pass the threads.
That would be too much trouble for me, I'd just keep working on the restriction.

I got to thinking about this. I do not think I am having an issue with it bumping back up after the constriction. If I were, there would be lead more into the bore. But the lead is just after the constriction, right where the rifling starts. You can also see where it is "blown" up the bore just a little, looks like someone sneezed lead.

I think that the only way this gun will not lead, with the constriction, is to push the boolit gently enough to go through the constriction and hard enough to kind of 'swag' it into the bore.

The more I think about it, the more I just cannot see any other way around being able to shoot lead and having a constriction. Its gotta go or the lead boolits do.

Thoughts? Am I missing something here?

[Wolfer]

Don't think your missing it. For me thread restrictions have to go. Just keep firelapping and testing. It'll get better as you go.

[1bluehorse]

One more try..go back and read post #70..do 18, thats all I ask, but do it the way It's written, ALL OF IT...do not "stick" any compound into the forcing cone..I did not "invent" this method, it's a combination of Marshall Stantons instructions and whoever did the Ruger in 36 rounds tech note and the loading method is from an article in I believe, GunBlast....but....it works....one more thing, not to worry about to much "wear" as the majority of lapping will come at the constriction and to a lesser degree elsewhere... .001 isn't much anyway...the last gun I firelapped was my old 3 screw 44mag SBH a couple weeks ago...using this method it took 24 rounds..[smilie=s:

[newton]

I would go for the hand lapping, but to be honest I would find a way to mess it up. Fire lapping is working, just not as quick as I would like it. But at the same time I do not want to rush it and mess up. I think part of the issue is I am using 400 grit instead of 320 which I believe is what most use and get results with in the 35-40 rounds. I am at 60 so I am not far from that. I think I am over the "hill" and am about there. I was just saying this morning that I bet it will take 6-18 more to get where I want it.

I only did the extra on the forcing cone for the first 48 or so. I quit after that as I saw the improvements I was making and want to be sure to take it slow from here on out. The only other thing I have not done yet is the 100 strokes and thats because I know its just not there yet.

I can't wait till I slug the barrel and find that it slides on through the constriction. It will also be nice to shoot a cylinder full of boolits, and then open it up to find no lead smeared in the barrel. I am loving the groups I am getting, but it will be nice to see them shrink as well.

All in all I am glad I took this on. This gun is going to have a lot more history to it that just going down to the store and buying it. Its amazing how much this is common. I think if Ruger would just back down from how tight they screw the barrel on they would be ok.

Hope to have a good report tomorrow. Even though I know I will run out of daylight before I get to shoot some full house rounds. But I should have enough time to do the firelapping. If not, there is always tomorrow.

[newton]

Well I did more lapping last night. I think I might have miscounted on how many I have done before. If so, its only by 6. So I have done either 60 or 66 previously. Last night I did 24. Yes, I had only planned on going to 18, but it seemed so close to being perfect I had to do another 6.

So I am up around 90 now. Seems like a lot to me. You would think I have a SS barrel. But it is showing wear now and I will not do any more. The restriction is almost gone however. Still a little there, but if it gives me fits still I will think about hand-lapping or possible just getting a plain base gas check maker from Pat if he has them still and they actually work. If anyone out there has one for a .45, I sure would love to try some. Please.

It looks like an old gun inside though. lol. The outside still looks new, but the barrel looks like it has seen good days of shooting. Its not bad, and the barrel is mirror bright. Just the factory metal finish is gone. I am not sure if they blue the inside of the barrel, but at the muzzle end you can see different color splotches where a more darker color is fading away.

I did not get to test with full house rounds yet. I will tonight. I also made some new boolit alloy that is WW with some pure added in. I will air cool them. One thing I do find interesting is the start of the rifling. It is a right hand twist. The 'top' of each rifling has a slight curve to it at the very start. Very interesting. I suppose it is where the boolits were lapping it down before the rifling actually grabbed them and started twisting? But if that was the case, then I would think the boolits would show it on them. I have a few boolits I recovered after they got stuck in the very end of the barrel and they only show crisp groove lines.

So what it is I do not know. I may see if I can get a picture of it. Its hard to describe, but if someone has seen it before I know they understand what I am saying. It is on each one of them, and its all the same size. I do not believe at all its a bad thing, but interesting none the less.

One thing I have wondered though. Is it good to ease a boolit into the rifling rather than a sharp grab? I would think. My mind thinks of a car going around a corner. The slower the corner actually turns over a greater distance the faster the car can go around without loosing grip. So my mind wonders if this firelapping did not smooth out the corners at the start and leave them crisp at the end so that the boolit eases into them.

I'll report back after tonight's tests. I think I am getting close. But if it does not work, I think I am going to try some PB checks if I can get a hold of them.

[thegatman]

Power pistol works for me with cast boolits in my Blackhawk with 45 Colt.

[newton]

Power pistol works for me with cast boolits in my Blackhawk with 45 Colt.

I've considered trying a slower powder. It would take more of it, but I have to wonder if it might help. Its not something I am going to do anytime soon unless I run into a bunch of money, but its on my to do list.

On another note, has anyone done a Taylor throat reaming in their revolver? I have heard just a little about it to make me curious if it would not be the key to getting the restriction out while giving an even softer start into the rifling.

This is all just curiosity at this point. I am really thinking that the lapping I did last night is going to show some good things. And I am also going to try the new boolit alloy and see if it does anything also. There is always room to play with lube too. Its hard to just focus on one thing or another.

[newton]

Ok, so I got a question for you guys. Has anyone used dacron on top of a 8.5 grain load of Unique? My thoughts are that besides keeping the powder in the same spot for all rounds, it might provide a slight buffer to the base of the boolit?

Any thoughts?

[44MAG#1]

Yes I have a thought.
Post a picture of one of your groups shot from a sandbagged rest and then one shot offhand.
Lets see how the grouping looks with both.
Let the groups be"twice around the wheel" at 25 yards.
Sometimes things can be diagnosed better with a visual aid.
I have a Blackhawk with small chamber throats that will shoot the Lee 255 RFP with 9.5 gr Unique into 2 inch or less groups at 25 yards benched with Iron sights and I ain't no benchrest hugger. I haven't look down my barrel to check for leading and I rarely clean my barrel. Sometimes shooting several hundred rounds before I Ithink about cleaning them and that is generally all that gets done is I think about it.

[newton]

Yes I have a thought.
Post a picture of one of your groups shot from a sandbagged rest and then one shot offhand.
Lets see how the grouping looks with both.
Let the groups be"twice around the wheel" at 25 yards.
Sometimes things can be diagnosed better with a visual aid.
I have a Blackhawk with small chamber throats that will shoot the Lee 255 RFP with 9.5 gr Unique into 2 inch or less groups at 25 yards benched with Iron sights and I ain't no benchrest hugger. I haven't look down my barrel to check for leading and I rarely clean my barrel. Sometimes shooting several hundred rounds before I Ithink about cleaning them and that is generally all that gets done is I think about it.

I can do that. But if you read all the other posts you'll see that I'm not trying to work on my accuracy as much as my leading. I have been doing all my shooting off a bench for a while now because I am just trying to find the right load. I have no doubts that if I did what you ask I'll post a bigger group from off hand than benchrest. I am not an experienced shooter. But at the same time I know what a constriction feels like and know that a major build up of lead is not supposed to happen in just 6 shots.

Also, my chamber throats are not small or tight. They are right on the money where they should be. A .452" boolit just barley goes through. The constriction is right where the forcing cone ends and the rifling begins. I also know that after the short session of firelapping my benchrest groups dropped from 12"+ to 6"- in a matter of one afternoon. I highly doubt that in 12 shots I somehow was able to correct all my bad form and shrink my group size that much. So there is something to be said about what is happening with the gun.

I appreciate people being out and open about guys who are not real good with pistols, but I am not trying to focus on that right now. There is an issue with the gun and once I can overcome that then I can work on myself personally.

[newton]

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/27CA6F3A-8434-43FA-B8AA-17F667E11780-9518-0000089951002600_zpsb42974fa.jpg

Here is a picture of what the groups looked like. Its one I took a while back. I have not even bothered with taking some while going through this process. But it is an excellent representation of what the groups looked like before starting all this process. Actually, this group(if you can even call it that) was a 'good' group with a light plinking load I was developing. It is also a group shot off a rest. I do not have a target big enough to take a picture of one shot off hand. They were hitting dirt and all.

I'll take another picture of the full house loads I shoot tonight. I have no doubts, whatsoever, that they will be within a 4"-6" circle. It is shooting a WHOLE lot better now. But I really want to fix the leading issue.

After some research the dacron is out the window. Not suggested really. I think if anything I will just wind up getting a PB check maker. Its a little cost out of hand up front, but cheaper than a couple hundread jacketed rounds and I'll be able to make all the checks I want.

I am willing to bet that my plinking loads will not lead at all now. But unless I got that constriction down enough the full house loads stand a good chance to keep blowing lead off the base. However, with the extra firelapping it may have created enough of a gradual constriction that will allow the boolit to swag over it smoothly than abruptly and still maintain a good seal.

Its all just theory until I try it out. Just an hour or so more to go. Got to go vote first.

[44MAG#1]

Have you tried 18.5 gr 2400 to see how the "leading" is?
Do you have any 2400? If not it is a good go to powder for upper tier loads.
Power Pistol is what i like now at 9.4 gr with a 250 to 280 gr Keith style bullet.
Get a pound of 2400.
What alloy are you using?
My Lee 255's are cast from an alloy equivelent to Lyman #2
Most of my bullets are a lot harder though.
If your bullets aren't HARD harden some to test to see if that makes a difference in the "leading".

[Texas Tinker]

Hey Newton;

The 2 oldest handguns in my arsenal are a Super Blackhawk manufactured in 1980 and an early New model Blackhawk in 45 colt manufactured in the late 1970's. My 45 like yours has a 4 5/8 barrel. I have run many different loads through this revolver and Unique is my favorite powder for plinking general use. The key points that I have noticed are that I seem to be able to vary bullet style and hardness of m cast bullets all I want for this revolver. I just have to size the bullets to ,452 (My cylinder Troats measure .4525 evenly) and load them over no more than 8.0 grs of Unique. 25 yard groups usually turn in 3" or less rested (3.5" - 4" unrested if I'm having a good day). When I start going heavier with the Unique the groups get larger the higher I go. I changed to 2400 with simular results for hotter loads, but I have not used these in this gun for years. I don't like the mussle blast and recoil from this short barrel when I start cranking it up.
That brings me to my final point. Recoil and mussle blast may be part of (if not most) your problem (even when firing from a rest). Start all those loads out at a reasonable level find a mild combination that gives good performance then load a good quantity and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. When you have you and the gun both performing well together. Start working up to hotter loads. Take it a slow and let your tolerence level tell you how far to go. You'll be surprised at how quickly you can find an exceptable combination when you are building your confidence at the same time.

[newton]

Have you tried 18.5 gr 2400 to see how the "leading" is?
Do you have any 2400? If not it is a good go to powder for upper tier loads.
Power Pistol is what i like now at 9.4 gr with a 250 to 280 gr Keith style bullet.
Get a pound of 2400.
What alloy are you using?
My Lee 255's are cast from an alloy equivelent to Lyman #2
Most of my bullets are a lot harder though.
If your bullets aren't HARD harden some to test to see if that makes a difference in the "leading".

I don't have that powder unfortunately. I have read into it and it does seem like it would be a good choice. I know the case would be filled more. But unique is a classic for this round and boolit also. So I know it can perform. I don't doubt that in the future I'll get 2400, but don't have cash for it now.

I've done it with soft and hard boolits. The last bit of testing has been with wdww. They are pretty hard. I'm making some softer ones though. I think it will be good for them to be more flexible over the hump.

[newton]

Thanks for the advice TT. I've settled in at 8.5 Unique right now. I hear what your saying, and no doubt I could go lower with less recoil. And there is no doubt that recoil/blast does effect me a little. But my major goal right now is the leading. Once that is done then I can work on skill. It effects me, but not too much from a rest if I concentrate.

[44MAG#1]

If anyone is filling your head with the notion that 2400 isn't a good powder then anything else they told me I would consider it highly suspect.
Some of my better 100 yard groups were with 2400.
Economy wise it isn't if you are looking for lower level loads but middle to upper level loads it is good.
There may be a better powder for a particular application but didn't you want a hunting load and not a plinking load?
Here is what you said in post #1: But the last piece of the puzzle is a good hunting load for my BH. I got the plinking part down, but would like to hunt with it on my side this fall."

[newton]

I think that if I was able to take pictures of the barrel through this whole thing the issue would be clearer. None the less, I just did not. I imagine that someone who runs into the same thing will understand fully.

So I shot 12 rounds before I ran out of light. 6 with some of the old boolits, 6 with some newer ones that I cast and water dropped. I figured water dropping would not matter much if I shot them in less than an hour. Unsized, BP lube, 8.5 unique.

http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/CE77C317-8FCB-4187-A14B-7E8C7E56F2F7-9689-000008B74444162B_zps377fbf17.jpg

In the first 6, 3 were grouping where you see the majority of them. One dead center, one low, one right. Then the next 6 kind of hit around. Also, I had a little leading after the first 6, but significant leading after the last 6. I am pretty sure it was a combo of the just cast boolits and the BP lube.

I cast some more and they will be waiting for tomorrow and the weekend. I will try some different lubes along the way. But I think that it's not going to be possible to keep the lead out until I remove the restriction or use another boolit. I hope to get some PB checks to try soon. I think it's going to be my best option. The gun and myself are shooting good now though. So I think I can now work on my shooting skills. I may have to clean the gun more, but checks would solve my problem with lead.

And you never know, I might strike it good with the new alloy after it gets it's hardness and a new lube. The constriction is there, but I feel a whole lot better about it than I did. And I may get board this winter and hand lap it out. But I'm good for now.

[newton]

If anyone is filling your head with the notion that 2400 isn't a good powder then anything else they told me I would consider it highly suspect.
Some of my better 100 yard groups were with 2400.
Economy wise it isn't if you are looking for lower level loads but middle to upper level loads it is good.
There may be a better powder for a particular application but didn't you want a hunting load and not a plinking load?
Here is what you said in post #1: But the last piece of the puzzle is a good hunting load for my BH. I got the plinking part down, but would like to hunt with it on my side this fall."

You are most certainly correct. I want a really good hunting load. I can post a picture of some plinking load groups I shot that were less than 4" at 25 yards. But once I climb above 7-7.5 unique I started getting bad groups and leading bad.

I may just try the 2400. Now that I think about it. It's going to push the boolit a little easier at first for sure, and the extra powder amount may act as a buffer. Who knows, maybe it will be the ticket. I know a guy who has some. I may just ask him for enough to try some rounds.

Thanks for making me think harder about it. It really does make some sense to use it.

[newton]

What kind of velocity will I be looking at with different loads of 2400? I know the barrel length I have really cuts down on the velocity. What load out of the short barrel would get me around 1000 fps?

[44MAG#1]

My notes on MY BH 45/8's barrel 45 colt is 270 Mihec SAA (actual wt is 280 gr.) bullet 18.5 gr 2400 1093 fpd. Fed 150 primer.
Redhawk 45 Colt 4 inch 270 gr Mihec SAA bullet 19 gr 2400 1143 fps. Fed 150.
Redhawk 45 Colt 4 inch 250 Magma Eng. RNFP bullet 19 gr 2400 1156 fps Fed 150.
Starline brass in all loads.
Don't worry about barrel length. It doesn't make a worthwhile difference. If you can't kill it with a 45/8's you can't kill it with a 71/2 inch. Vice versa.
24 gr H110 with a Win LP primer in the BH will give essentially the same velocity.

[newton]

I have thought about using h110. But I'm not looking for the kind of power it is capable of in the ruger.

[1bluehorse]

Did you do the 100 strokes with the patch saturated with the lapping compound.....?

[newton]

Did you do the 100 strokes with the patch saturated with the lapping compound.....?

Ahhh, I have not yet. That just polishes the bore right? The particles get broke down smaller and smaller until they are really small? Or is there something specific behind it? My bore is good, just the restriction giving me fits.

[1bluehorse]

Ahhh, I have not yet. That just polishes the bore right? The particles get broke down smaller and smaller until they are really small? Or is there something specific behind it? My bore is good, just the restriction giving me fits.

yes it polishes the bore...but that's what finishes the job...now you need to "break in" you new barrel...it's a clean slate now.

[newton]

yes it polishes the bore...but that's what finishes the job...now you need to "break in" you new barrel...it's a clean slate now.

I'll have to look into breaking in a barrel. I have heard of it, but never done it, that I know of.

[newton]

Well I am pretty tickled. It may soon go away, but I had just enough time to shoot a cylinder full tonight. I backed up my rest to 25 yards. I knew I only had time for one set so I tried something I ran accross the other day. I read Taffin's article on him testing a 45 colt.

In his load notes he puts a star by a 9 grain Herco load. He likes this load, and found it very accurate, with the 255 grain boolit. It also should be getting around 900 fps.

So I tried that load. I used some of the new boolits I cast last night and I had lubed a few this morning tumble style with LLA and jpw. It had dried good so I loaded them up and put a heavy crimp on them. I have come to understand herco likes pressure.

So it was pretty dark, but I shot anyway. Man does that gun have a muzzle flash. Very pretty at night. I had no idea where I was hitting but I kept focused on the red spot on the target. I go look and sure enough 3" wide by 2" high group. I was floored. Maybe just good luck. We shall see. But what I was more curious about was the lead issue.

So I get to the shop and wouldn't you know there was some lead. But not in the place it has ALWAYS been. It was somewhere different, and most was on the cone. Just a few splatters in the barrel. This, I believe, is indication of too soft a boolit. But I could be wrong.

So needless to say things are looking up. But it does make me think harder about the slower powders with higher charges. I'll still have to look into 2400. But for now unless I am mistaken, 900-950 is just fine for close range shots and such. It's about what they ran when the round first came out and people seemed to think it did just fine.

But eventually I know I'll want some more power. But this gets me headed in the right direction. Now I just need to practice.

[newton]

Just a little update. I ran a couple of cylinders full of the new load I think I have settled into for now. I will be doing more work with another powder later, but for now I am pretty sure I have a handle on it.

I had lubed up 12 boolits the night before last. 6 of the WD new alloy, and 6 of the AC new alloy. New alloy being ~75% WW and 25% pure. Loaded them up with 9 grains Herco.

I decided, since I am going hunting with this gun as a side arm tomorrow, to set up a 7" paper plate and make sure I could keep all shots on it. Sure enough, the first set was just great and all on the plate. That was at 25 yards. Nearly no leading(think I need to tweak the alloy and/or lube). So wondering what I could do I moved back to 50 yards.

Took the 6 other rounds and shot them. First 4 were on the plate. Not too shabby if you ask me. But then the next two were just no where to be found. I am pretty sure they both hit low about 12-14 inches. I really started to wonder what I had done.

Get to the shop and took the cylinder out and low and behold a barrel full of lead. I could not believe it. What had happened. Well, after calming down I realized that I had decided to try the air cooled against the water dropped. And sure enough I had shot the air cooled instead of the water dropped the second time.

So a harder boolit is what I need for sure. I am thinking that if its true about boolits age hardening then the WD ones should be about right in a week or two. They will shoot fine now, but I bet they will be better later. I am thinking that it would be about the same as some ACWW alloy, but eventually the only way I am going to be able to know for sure is to get a hardness tester.

For now I'm happy though. The fire lapping really did the trick as I had tried all these different alloys before and never could come close to the results I am getting now. I am also tickled that I can actually group at 50 yards. I still need a lot more practice though, but some hogs are going to be in trouble if I run across them in the coming weeks. I know I'll get excited, but surely 1 in 6 shots will find their mark.

[scattershot]

I've been following this thread, and I admire your dedication. Sounds like you have a handle on it, for sure.

[newton]

I've been following this thread, and I admire your dedication. Sounds like you have a handle on it, for sure.

Thanks. I could not have done this without the resources found here. I cant imagine not having the abundance of information you can find here. I know that most guys who shoot cast have a pretty good handle on things, but some like me do not.

I have to wonder if guys who bought guns in the past and had these kinds of issues just resold them. But, I am sure the gun would have shot fine with jacketed ammo. It seems that its a straight shooter until lead builds up. Once that happens its a **** shoot as to where the boolit will land.

I get to leave work early and I'll do some more testing. The boolits have one more day of hardening on them and I have them lubed up and ready to go. But all in all I think that I have reached my goal.

I'll have to get pictures posted up of the gun and what its shooting now. Hopefully I'll have a nice picture of what it does in the woods also.

[44MAG#1]

Was that shooting at 25 yards at the 7 inch paper plate offhand or from a rest?

[newton]

Was that shooting at 25 yards at the 7 inch paper plate offhand or from a rest?

It was most certainly from a rest. I still have a long way to go to shoot off hand. I'll get there.

I shot again tonight. I'm really starting to get a handle on all of this. Loaded up some rounds and thought I'd try 9.5 grains herco. That was a no go, all over the place and lead like crazy.

Back down to 9 and it tightened up and not much lead. By boolits need to be harder I reckon. I'll do some with ww and some Lino I have and water drop them. I'd be curious how they work. It will be a while before I can test, but I'll start at a high load and back down till there is no leading.

It's going to make a nice side arm for the next little while when hunting with my rifle. I wish I would have gotten more time in with it before and got things figured out. But one day I will bring it, and it alone, hunting with me. For now...practice.

[44MAG#1]

If you water dropped ww correctly they will come out harder than straight linotype. I have gotten close to 30 on the BHN scale with water dropped WW. Never saw much need to use a mix of WW and Lino and then water drop too. Seems like a waste of linotype.
I don't mean this to be mean spirited but Seven inches at 25 is pretty bad even for offhand. Practice will improve this though. A lot of practice.
What do you call "lead like crazy"?

[newton]

If you water dropped ww correctly they will come out harder than straight linotype. I have gotten close to 30 on the BHN scale with water dropped WW. Never saw much need to use a mix of WW and Lino and then water drop too. Seems like a waste of linotype.
I don't mean this to be mean spirited but Seven inches at 25 is pretty bad even for offhand. Practice will improve this though. A lot of practice.
What do you call "lead like crazy"?

Interesting. How do you water drop? I wish I had a hardness tester.

No offense taken. I do realize 7" is bad off hand and rest. But, I have to say its 'good enough' for a back up. I will be the first to tell you there is more work to be done on my part with load development. But I got what I was wanting for the most part. Season starts tomorrow and I'm not going to let it stop me.

Lead like crazy is when lead builds up to the rifling. That's what happens just in front of my forcing cone. I need to lap it out completely, but it's a lot better and shoots ok with low end hunting loads.

Eventually, when I decide to hunt with the gun exclusively, I will do more expiremention. For now, it's good.

[44MAG#1]

To get maximum hardness one must run with an extremely hot mold almost to the point the lead wants to smear when you break the sprue plate. but just short of not doing it and then get them into the water as quickly as possible. You can't lolly gag and look and pick out your bullets before getting them into the water.
They will cool to much from mold to water. Cast by yourself so conversation won't detere you and you can't be scratching your head, daydreaming and be slow getting said bullets into the water.
36 hours and they will be harder than linotype and sometimes approch 30 on the BHN scale. although that depends on the WW and what ever else is mixed in with them.
Hard to beat just plain WW though and they will bust/burst/mash a linotype bullet easily.
Hard to believe that there can be that much leading though with anything short of pure lead.

[bigboredad]

I find this to be a very odd case. if the bullets indeed match the bore and the throats are indeed the proper size and you have lapped out the barrel and you are still getting leading:shock:. I don't believe the gun is the problem and at the velocities you are shooting you barely need lube and almost a pure strait alloy should be no problem.
I think there is something else entirely wrong. I have owned and still own quite a few Ruger blachawks in .45 colt. I have never lapped a single barrel the only thing I've done is ream the throats to .4525 and made sure that when each gun was ready to start its lead only diet that it was free from any copper fouling. Finding a load that did not lead was very easy finding the most accurate load takes a bit more time. I just have a hard time understanding how you could have done everything you claim and you are still getting leading like crazy. I believe something else is amiss here

[44MAG#1]

I believe that too.
I think something is wrong somewhere else.
What it is I can't imagine. I have pushed bullets hard, medium, slow extra hard. I have 2 45 Colts that have throats that are undersize and if a gun should lead it should be those with real hard bullets at low pressure. Even with just the average "store bought" lube no problems shot fast or slow.
Even with the tight throats they will shoot 2 inches or under at 25 yards easily.
I think this is an interesting thread.
A smoothbore should do 7 inch groups at 25 yards.

[bigboredad]

I agree I picked up a 12 year old blackhawk that had never been shot reamed the throats and with a load of 9.5gr of universal I had a 1.25 inch group for the second group the gun ever fired and no leading till I shot a gob of tite group behind a 290gr soft bullet and that was light enough that I shot it out with 9gr of universal a 348gr bullet. Like you I can't begin to imagine why he is having such a problem

[newton]

Well fellas I have not heard one of you mention having a gun with a choke at the frame. Which is very interesting to me, but at the same time just hammers home my whole theory that the constriction is the thing giving me fits.

Sure accuracy is on me more than the gun. But at the same time I know that, after some extensive testing, accuracy drops relative to lead building up. Said lead is only, unless it's an extreme case, at the forcing cone - rather just in front of it.

See, I too would think that just about anything shy of pure should work. I mean we're not even trying to break the sound barier here. But the only thing I can see, and have proven with testing, is that my WHOLE leading issue is from the constriction. I am only playing with alloy and lube to try and eliviate the problem some. If the constriction were gone then this would be a moot issue.

I want to hunt, and after season I'll work on the issue. The firelapping worked immensely to help with the issue. However, it is such a major constriction that it simply did not take it all the way out. I will have to hand lap the barrel from here to get the best results. I was told that from the begining.

I know it's hard to believe, but unless you have had this situation before or my gun, there is no way to understand. I've tried to be as descriptive as possible so that those who come along wondering what is going on with their gun can have some thoughts to consider. Hopefully in the coming months I can post how I shot the gun all weekend and don't have a drop of lead in the barrel.

[newton]

I believe that too.
I think something is wrong somewhere else.
What it is I can't imagine. I have pushed bullets hard, medium, slow extra hard. I have 2 45 Colts that have throats that are undersize and if a gun should lead it should be those with real hard bullets at low pressure. Even with just the average "store bought" lube no problems shot fast or slow.
Even with the tight throats they will shoot 2 inches or under at 25 yards easily.
I think this is an interesting thread.
A smoothbore should do 7 inch groups at 25 yards.

My throats are far from tight. In fact, they are the ideal dimensions at .4525". But when my boolit bumps up to .4525", then swags down to .4505", then at the same time back up to .451", there begins my issues. My boolit takes on the form of a hourglass for a short time. There is simply too much working of the lead and the pressure behind it cuts the base and blows lead off.

If things had not improved dramatically after the lapping then I would think its another issue. But they did improve. Almost dissapeared. But they are still there, and guess what, the constriction is too.

It all makes perfect sense to me. Wish I could put it into different words or something to help you guys understand what's going on.

[RobS]

I will have to hand lap the barrel from here to get the best results. I was told that from the begining.

I know it's hard to believe, but unless you have had this situation before or my gun, there is no way to understand.

I've been where you are on a few occasions. It does make it difficult when the boolit has gas blow by after that constriction because it's essentially the same as shooting an undersized boolit. Hand lapping can work nicely and following up with some fire lapping rounds really helps with the consistency through the length of the barrel.

This can really be a frustrating thing until you work through your first revolver and after that it's not so bad.

[newton]

I've been where you are on a few occasions. It does make it difficult when the boolit has gas blow by after that constriction because it's essentially the same as shooting an undersized boolit. Hand lapping can work nicely and following up with some fire lapping rounds really helps with the consistency through the length of the barrel.

This can really be a frustrating thing until you work through your first revolver and after that it's not so bad.

That's funny. I've been searching for a way to describe what's happening and you sum it up with "undersized boolit". That's exactly what's happening and there is letteraly no way to fix it without taking the constriction out.

[44MAG#1]

I'll tell you what I am going to do. I have a .450 size die and I am going to size some bullets that are slightly softer than air cooled wheelweights and shoot them through one of my 45 colts that has the right speced throats with 9.5 gr of Unique and see if I get any leading.
I may but I doubt it.
That should about duplicate the same situation you have with the constriction causing your bullets to size down and lets the gas blow by and also should cause leading.
It will be Thursday before I can try it but if nothing goes haywire I will try it.
I will report on this after that.
Can you manage to get a photo of the barrel from the muzzle to the forcing cone and then a photo with a light shining down the muzzle with a photo with the camera angled to show the forcing cone and post it.
In this case a couple good photos will help immensely. Maybe then we can help some
Pad the jaws of a vice to hold the gun so you can get the photos that are the best.
Or block it up some way to hold it.

[RobS]

I'll tell you what I am going to do. I have a .450 size die and I am going to size some bullets that are slightly softer than air cooled wheelweights and shoot them through one of my 45 colts that has the right speced throats with 9.5 gr of Unique and see if I get any leading.
I may but I doubt it.
That should about duplicate the same situation you have with the constriction causing your bullets to size down and lets the gas blow by and also should cause leading.
It will be Thursday before I can try it but if nothing goes haywire I will try it.
I will report on this after that.
Can you manage to get a photo of the barrel from the muzzle to the forcing cone and then a photo with a light shining down the muzzle with a photo with the camera angled to show the forcing cone and post it.
In this case a couple good photos will help immensely. Maybe then we can help some
Pad the jaws of a vice to hold the gun so you can get the photos that are the best.
Or block it up some way to hold it.

No it is not the same if you have a barrel that doesn't have a constriction. Understand that when the nose of an undersized boolit hits the forcing cone/start of the lands the resistance from the front (greater at this point than once fully into the barrel) will help bump up the back or base of the boolit before it makes way into the barrel and potentially even before the boolit leaves the cylinder throats (depending on the length of the boolit and how undersized of course). Additionally taking into the fact that you are going to be using a softer alloyed boolit all helps in making bump or obturation easier/possible.

At this point should a boolit obturate and seal before it enters the barrel it will not be undersized any longer as it makes its way down the rest of the barrel. Yes there are imperfections in every barrel and that is where lube comes in as a seal or gasket but there is only so much lube can do as pressures of the expanding gasses come to play and is why boolit fit is so important. A harder boolit will not work out any better and many times make things worse with a barrel that has a constriction that is unless it has a GC to act as a Band-Aid. A softer boolit can help but pushing hard at upper end 30K leaves another issue of skid of the boolit which can cause effect on accuracy.

As another alternative using a heavier boolit with multiple lube grooves can help with this situation of a barrel/thread constriction but it is not optimal and is once again only a Band-Aid at best because you are working with covering up gas blow-by with lube.


I'm not trying to ruffle feathers here so take my comments as you want.

[newton]

I'll tell you what I am going to do. I have a .450 size die and I am going to size some bullets that are slightly softer than air cooled wheelweights and shoot them through one of my 45 colts that has the right speced throats with 9.5 gr of Unique and see if I get any leading.
I may but I doubt it.
That should about duplicate the same situation you have with the constriction causing your bullets to size down and lets the gas blow by and also should cause leading.
It will be Thursday before I can try it but if nothing goes haywire I will try it.
I will report on this after that.
Can you manage to get a photo of the barrel from the muzzle to the forcing cone and then a photo with a light shining down the muzzle with a photo with the camera angled to show the forcing cone and post it.
In this case a couple good photos will help immensely. Maybe then we can help some
Pad the jaws of a vice to hold the gun so you can get the photos that are the best.
Or block it up some way to hold it.

Rob beat me too it, but he is correct that an undersized boolit is not going to give you the same results.

I'll do this. I'll load a few hot rounds that will show the leading issue. It doesn't do it anymore with the softer loads since the firelapping. But with the hotter loads it exagerates the constriction. Youll get a idea of how much worse it used to be before the lapping. Then I'll take a picture of where the lead is getting blow at. I'll take some of the other pictures as well. They might not be very good because it's hard to get the right angle with the frame and all.

[newton]

I'd be interested to see the results of your test though. I think the thing is that what is happening is like an undersized boolit being shot out of a rifle or other gun. With the revolver the boolit has a chance to 'bump up' before being sized back down and the having to bump up again.

[12DMAX]

Newton, I had a similar thread awhile back with the same issue, thought i had mine figured out but I put the gun down for awhile and started shooting it again and nope i have not solved the problem. I have been over the hill and through the woods with boolit size, alloy hardness, powders/charges, firelapping ( mine was exactly like yours drive a slug through from the muzzle falls to the threads and has to be driven through the forcing cone, Drive a slug through from the breech end and it falls out the muzzle). I have firelapped that restriction almost completly out of the gun BUT there is still a .0002 restriction there and I find it very hard to believe that is my issue now BECAUSE I have a perfect ring of lead all the way around my forcing cone 1/16" wide and the lead is carried into the barrel/frame junction. I beleive it may be a forcing cone issue (rough/angle/not cut right)? Anyway I am back to testing and will share my findings and results on this thread ( if thats ok with you?) I do believe we are experiencing the same thing.

[RobS]

12DMAX:

I've seen a forcing cone/start of the barrel throat be a problem and once cut to a 11 degree cone it took care of this issue. I've read of people Taylor troating as well to help with a forcing cone constriction but I have mixed feeling on this approach. Also sometimes firelapping too much can open up the barrel's throat to the size of the cylinder throats and smooth out the rifling at the lands making it more difficult to keep the boolit from skidding.

[44MAG#1]

Okay then I will use some bullets that are harder than a brick.
I will shoot them at at least 1000 fps to see.

[RobS]

Okay then I will use some bullets that are harder than a brick.
I will shoot them at at least 1000 fps to see.

If they are harder than a brick (will not obturate) and are smaller than your barrel groove diameter...............I believe we all know what to expect.

[44MAG#1]

I just cast some quenched WW and they will be harder than linotype. If that doen't satisfy the "hard" crowd I don't know what will.
I am going to size them BEFORE they harden so there won't be enough springback to matter.
I will also compare hardness to straight lino to be sure.

[44MAG#1]

They are now sized in my .450 size die but not lubed. I will run them back through the .450 size die again the night before and lube them and then load them.

[12DMAX]

Newton, was able to dig up that pic. Are you getting any leading resembling this? That is a solid ring of lead around the ID of the cone.

[scattershot]

They are now sized in my .450 size die but not lubed. I will run them back through the .450 size die again the night before and lube them and then load them.

Maybe I missed something, but are you planning to shoot these boolits in a .45 Colt? .452 would be lots better, and .454 would be better still. .450 is a bit small, IMHO.

[44MAG#1]

I am planning to shoot them in a 45 colt yes sir.
That is the whole plan.

[scattershot]

I am planning to shoot them in a 45 colt yes sir.
That is the whole plan.

I think you would get much better results with a slightly larger boolit diameter. Do you have any larger ones you could try?

The leading you are seeing is no doubt from the gasses of combustion blowing by the bullet.

[12DMAX]

Maybe I missed something, but are you planning to shoot these boolits in a .45 Colt? .452 would be lots better, and .454 would be better still. .450 is a bit small, IMHO.

scattershot, please dont take this the wrong way but you are missing the point. Newton is having the issue, 44mag#1 is doing a test to prove a point:D

[scattershot]

Ok , I did miss something. Thanks.

[newton]

Newton, I had a similar thread awhile back with the same issue, thought i had mine figured out but I put the gun down for awhile and started shooting it again and nope i have not solved the problem. I have been over the hill and through the woods with boolit size, alloy hardness, powders/charges, firelapping ( mine was exactly like yours drive a slug through from the muzzle falls to the threads and has to be driven through the forcing cone, Drive a slug through from the breech end and it falls out the muzzle). I have firelapped that restriction almost completly out of the gun BUT there is still a .0002 restriction there and I find it very hard to believe that is my issue now BECAUSE I have a perfect ring of lead all the way around my forcing cone 1/16" wide and the lead is carried into the barrel/frame junction. I beleive it may be a forcing cone issue (rough/angle/not cut right)? Anyway I am back to testing and will share my findings and results on this thread ( if thats ok with you?) I do believe we are experiencing the same thing.

Well I guess I missed your thread. I thought I had the issue fixed before, but I only had it fixed when shooting low velocity rounds. Real low. Now my gun is a tad different. It is tapered to the muzzle. So if you start a boolit at the breech then you have to drive it all the way out the muzzle.

One thing that does confound me, but not completely understandable, is my lead is smeared to one side more than the other. I've checked for timing and it seems good. I think it's just because they way it's entering the cone.

[newton]

12DMAX:

I've seen a forcing cone/start of the barrel throat be a problem and once cut to a 11 degree cone it took care of this issue. I've read of people Taylor troating as well to help with a forcing cone constriction but I have mixed feeling on this approach. Also sometimes firelapping too much can open up the barrel's throat to the size of the cylinder throats and smooth out the rifling at the lands making it more difficult to keep the boolit from skidding.

I have thought about both of these. But I want to save those for last measures. The Taylor seemed to be the thing, but seems extreme.

[newton]

Newton, was able to dig up that pic. Are you getting any leading resembling this? That is a solid ring of lead around the ID of the cone.

If I'm seeing it right then no I do not have that. My lead starts where the rifling starts. Sometimes there is a tad on the cone, but only when the boolit is way to soft. If you could edit it and put an arrow where you getting the lead that would help. From my understanding your speaking of the very edge of the cone?

[RobS]

Well I guess I missed your thread. I thought I had the issue fixed before, but I only had it fixed when shooting low velocity rounds. Real low.

Your lube was creating the seal at the lower pressure plinker loads.


12DMAX: your experience when the gun had a clean bore and was warm from shooting yielded no leading but when the revolver cooled you had problems again could have been because the combination of the barrel which showed no visible leading but may have actually had small traces of leading backed with the second time around lube that was stiffer in the lube groove due to a cool gun. The lube simply didn't flow as easily from the lube grooves as it once did when the revolver was warm and if you started with a clean barrel the first time around it wasn't the second time. I've had this issue before as well and with a clean barrel and warm gun the lube flows and keep the boolits from accumulating visible leading in the barrel. Once started back up though the small traces of lead in conjunction with lube that doesn't flow as well as when warm there in starts a snowball effect.

[newton]

Yea, I figured it was the lube combined with less pressure do to smaller powder charge. I might be able to shoot a hot load today and get a pic posted. I just hope I can get a picture at the right angle to show what's going on.

[Pooch]

First off your cylinder throats need to mic larger than your groove diameter. I have a .45 Colt RBH & my cylinder throats are an average of .454 while my groove diameter is .451. I size to .454 using the LEE 452-252-RF. (It drops at .455) I load with 8.0 grs. Unique. Good shooter. If your cylinder throats are equal to or smaller than your groove diameter you will have to have them reamed. OR, your forcing cone may be crushed slightly due the timing being off on the barrel threads resulting in too much torque used to properly position your barrel . . . happens a lot. Talk to Ed Harris over at Cast Bullet association. He worked for Ruger . . . real smart guy and can help you.

[newton]

Ok. Quick update. I'll post other pictures tomorrow, but I shot some hot rounds and have a before and after picture.

Before:
http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/cleanbarrel.jpg

After 6 rounds:
http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/shotbarrel.jpg

That right side is where the lead likes to gather. Not a lot on the left side. However, with the medium loads the lead does favor the left side more than the right. Very interesting. No lead down the barrel. Maybe just a little smearing. I'll do more pictures tomorrow.

[newton]

I edited the pictures. The red line is where the leading starts. There is none before that on the cone. You can see that it is right at the rifling and I guess I never noticed it before, but you can actually see it builds up on the rifling itself. This tells me that its for sure getting cut off by gases and its only until the boolit can get re-sealed on the rifling. If it was because of an undersized boolit you would see lead on the cone and who knows where else. But the lead only starts right after the constriction.

I guess I could get another picture of some boolits shot with the lighter load of Herco. There is not much lead at all with those. But I was dealing with this kind of lead from those kinds of loads before I did the firelapping.

I have the other pictures I'll post, but there is not much you can see with them. At least I do not see much of anything. I could not get any better a picture of the breech end looking to the muzzle than the one above. But I could get ones of the muzzle to breech. I'll show a before and after shot.

Before:
http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/muzzleend2.jpg

After:
http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/nathanhooper1/muzzletobreech.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

Newton, I empathize with your sitch. I've followed this thread closely, hoping you could get this matter resolved to your satisfaction. I wish I had an answer for you that would help, but I'm stumped. I got lucky with my BisHawk in 45 Colt--opening up the throats to .453" and using .454" boolits resolved all its issues (.452" grooves). I suspect a thread constriction--if any--was minimal.

[newton]

Newton, I empathize with your sitch. I've followed this thread closely, hoping you could get this matter resolved to your satisfaction. I wish I had an answer for you that would help, but I'm stumped. I got lucky with my BisHawk in 45 Colt--opening up the throats to .453" and using .454" boolits resolved all its issues (.452" grooves). I suspect a thread constriction--if any--was minimal.

Thanks. I am just glad I understand whats going on now. That is unless there is something I am just flat out missing. Now its just a matter of decision of where to go from here. I have a few choices. Continue firelapping, hand lapping, taylor reaming, or shooting gas checks. I refuse to consider the other which is shooting jacketed ammo.

I have some gas checks coming I will try. If they work out really well then I may leave it as is untill I get bored one day and decide to hand lap. But the idea of making gas checks fits right in line with what I like to do anyways. If I wanted the easy route I would just buy jacketed ammo, not cast boolits in the first place.

I hope to have the checks next week and have some time to shoot also. There is for sure more to come on this thread.

[bigboredad]

well if the gas checks works for ya I would just the plain base gas check from here and then you can recycle your soda/beer cans. I member here sent me some to play with made from a coors lite silver bullet and they work slicker than owl poop.

It really looks to me like your alloy and powder don't play well together but I know you have checked a bunch of different combo's. I say cast a few set them aside let them get age hardened good then shoot them with either 2400 or enforcer. I give ya this tho you way more patience then I have. if it were mine that gun would have became jacketed only or just down the road since I can't afford the j word.

Any way go be a deer slayer and put this on the shelf for a while and have some fun in the woods. That's always a good way to clear your head

[44MAG#1]

For the leading to be one sided as much as it is it seems to me something is either cut out of alignment or the forcing cone is cut incorrectly. Maybe oval shaped or something.

[bigboredad]

I think cutting your forcing cone to 11 dgrees would be a wise next step and won't break the bank

[1bluehorse]

Looks like maybe the boolits are skidding. Water drop a dozen or so, let them age for a couple weeks then shoot them. Probably will be 18 to 20 BHN (if WW). GC will work but it doesn't "cure" the problem..I would finish firelapping the constriction out..... but handlapping is better left to the "experts". I've a couple guns that lead kinda like that but never gets any worse (down the barrel) regardless of how hard I push them. Interesting for sure..:popcorn:

[RobS]

Just a thought:

If you cant find a load that works then I would finish up on taking out the constriction via firelapping then come back and recut the cone to 11 degrees to clean it up as well as the barrel throat/lands.

[newton]

For the leading to be one sided as much as it is it seems to me something is either cut out of alignment or the forcing cone is cut incorrectly. Maybe oval shaped or something.

That's what I thought too. And still yet may be an issue. But the interesting thing is that with milder loads the leading develops on the otherside and none on the right. Not near as much, but some.

It could be oval though, from the constriction.

[newton]

I think cutting your forcing cone to 11 dgrees would be a wise next step and won't break the bank

I have highly considered this. But it is an expense and I've got kids to do Christmas for. I don't think it will touch the constriction, but it wouldn't hurt as far as I have read.

[newton]

I'll take your suggestions into mind for sure. Thanks for all the help. It really does help to talk through these things. The cone cutting will come eventually, I have no doubt. I am going to hold off on doing any more lapping by any means until I try the checks. I know it's not fixing the problem, but it's another way around it. It would not bother me to have to shoot checks on upper end loads at all. With the work I've done so far I am ok with the plinking loads and that is very fine with me.

In fact, I'd say it's great because this gun will mostly get fed the lighter loads for pure fun shooting. It's amazing how hard those firelapping boolits hit something when they were just plopping out the barrel. My boys will get a kick out of shooting it and it will be almost as cheap as a 22 pistol.

[newton]

I meant to add, I'll be casting up some hard boolits in the future to try. I have some lino around and for the sheer curiosity of it I'm going to try some really hard boolits. I am going to guess they wont do that good because they might be more resistant to gas cutting, they will be less likely to bump back up properly after the constriction.

But that's the fun in experimenting.

[Pooch]

It really sounds like a forcing cone issue my friend. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, check with Ed Harris over at Cast Bullet association. He worked at Ruger & knows his stuff. Ruger did in fact have a forcing cone problem. No offense intended but you're dancing but not to the right tune. Just trying to help.

[44MAG#1]

"I'll be casting up some hard boolits in the future to try."

What is your definition of "hard"?

[44MAG#1]

Here is a water quenched WW bullet on the left and a straight Linotype bullet on the right.
Just plain ole WW's. 36 hrs old.

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/Digglejiggle/wwlino.jpg

[12DMAX]

It really sounds like a forcing cone issue my friend. As I had mentioned in an earlier post, check with Ed Harris over at Cast Bullet association. He worked at Ruger & knows his stuff. Ruger did in fact have a forcing cone problem. No offense intended but you're dancing but not to the right tune. Just trying to help.

I am by no means an expert but I agree because like i said earlier I have been were you (newton) are at with mine, I ran the gauntlet with powders, charges,hardness,sizing .4525 throats, .451 bore (firelapped), timimg good. The only 2 things that I have not addressed is a .008+ cylinder gap and the forcing cone. My leading is so much like yours in respect to the forcing cone area, from there to the muzzle is clean.

[newton]

I am by no means an expert but I agree because like i said earlier I have been were you (newton) are at with mine, I ran the gauntlet with powders, charges,hardness,sizing .4525 throats, .451 bore (firelapped), timimg good. The only 2 things that I have not addressed is a .008+ cylinder gap and the forcing cone. My leading is so much like yours in respect to the forcing cone area, from there to the muzzle is clean.

Ok, ok. You all got my attention. One thing I have not addressed is my gap for sure. But maybe the cone is to blame.

I have to say I am 50/50 on that subject though. However, I am certainly not against trying to redo the cone. But seriously, in all honesty, if I'm gonna spend a $100 or so it's gonna be on a check maker. Why?

Because then it does not matter, as much, what alloy or lube I use. It makes boolits more forgiving. The cone reaming takes care of one issue. Not saying it won't happen down the line, but money is money these days.

[newton]

I'd love to hear more on the theory of the cone and how it effects the boolit.

[44MAG#1]

NEWTON:

You didn't see the hardness difference in the bullets in my photo?
The bullets were mashed base to base in a vice.
The water quenched WW metal mashed LESS than the straight linotype.
This roughly 36 hours after casting.
Would you consider this hard or what?

[22454]

I have a SRH 7.5" that leads in the same area when loaded with a .452" lee 255gr lfp. This seems to happen regardless of hardness when pushed with 5.5-8.3 gr of Titegroup or 8.5 gr Unique. When I load with 26.5 gr H110, I get no leading. The leading from previous light loads will even get cleaned out by the heavy loads. Again I have used different alloy hardness with the same results. The alloys range from air cooled range scrap (mainly 22lr) to water quenched clip on WW with added monotype (~20%).

I have also shot lee .458 340gr lfp sized to .452" on top of 23.2gr H110, no leading. The alloy was the harder alloy from above. The bullets weighed in the low 330s.

I do have a thread constriction. I do not know the degree because I have not slugged another revolver.

I have noticed that leading gets about as bad as it will get after a few shots, after 100 is still looks the same. The gun is relatively accurate with all the loads listed.

I use thinned Carnuaba Red pan lubed. I previously used LLA and ended up with similar leading with all loads.

[newton]

I have a SRH 7.5" that leads in the same area when loaded with a .452" lee 255gr lfp. This seems to happen regardless of hardness when pushed with 5.5-8.3 gr of Titegroup or 8.5 gr Unique. When I load with 26.5 gr H110, I get no leading. The leading from previous light loads will even get cleaned out by the heavy loads. Again I have used different alloy hardness with the same results. The alloys range from air cooled range scrap (mainly 22lr) to water quenched clip on WW with added monotype (~20%).

I have also shot lee .458 340gr lfp sized to .452" on top of 23.2gr H110, no leading. The alloy was the harder alloy from above. The bullets weighed in the low 330s.

I do have a thread constriction. I do not know the degree because I have not slugged another revolver.

I have noticed that leading gets about as bad as it will get after a few shots, after 100 is still looks the same. The gun is relatively accurate with all the loads listed.

I use thinned Carnuaba Red pan lubed. I previously used LLA and ended up with similar leading with all loads.

Thanks for the input. I have considered using a slow powder like that, it would sure get me where I need to be for hunting. But it's good, in a way, to hear a similar circumstance like mine. I got some checks in hand and am going to try them. I will hopefully get to try different powder in the coming months.

[j_dude77]

I have 4 Bisleys in 45 Colt. As soon as I got each one the throats got reamed to .4525, re-cut forcing cone, squared off end of forcing cone, and honed the cylinders. The alloy I use is 50/50 - 50:1 and magnum shot air cooled. Bullet is a Miha 454-640 sized to .454. My plinking load is 8.5 gr Unique. The lube I use is Ben's Red. After shooting 100 rounds I have very minimal leading. It takes all of two minutes to clean when I get home. Same bullet and alloy with 18gr 2400 I get minimal leading. If you have not done so re-cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees.

[newton]

I have 4 Bisleys in 45 Colt. As soon as I got each one the throats got reamed to .4525, re-cut forcing cone, squared off end of forcing cone, and honed the cylinders. The alloy I use is 50/50 - 50:1 and magnum shot air cooled. Bullet is a Miha 454-640 sized to .454. My plinking load is 8.5 gr Unique. The lube I use is Ben's Red. After shooting 100 rounds I have very minimal leading. It takes all of two minutes to clean when I get home. Same bullet and alloy with 18gr 2400 I get minimal leading. If you have not done so re-cut the forcing cone to 11 degrees.

Well I would love to. I have read enough to know that it will not hurt anything, and may improve. So based on that I am certainly not opposed. The only thing stopping me from doing it is the money. I thought I heard about a borrowing program somewhere, not sure where though. I remember when I first got my gun and thought I was going to have to ream the cylinder throats someone on here was going to let me borrow the reamer that someone else let them borrow. I cannot justify spending the money for just my one gun when I do not have plans for buying another anytime soon. And it would be senseless to send it off and pay the same amount for just buying the tool.

I am going to get to shoot some of the PB checked boolits tonight I think. I am going to load with 10 grains herco which is where I was getting a lot of leading. I know I could go higher, but this will tell me what the checks are doing. I am really curious how they will work. They sure do go on easy enough and look good to boot on the boolit. There is not much more work involved in putting them on especially if you size your boolits. The only extra work for me is cleaning lube off the base after I dip lube. But with my homemade cookie cutter it is not hard at all.

[newton]

Got to shoot yesterday evening. Only shot 6 of the GC boolits, but that was enough for me. I will be getting myself a check maker once funds allow. I loaded with 10 grains of Herco, which in the past produced that extreme leading in my gun. I did not shoot for accuracy this time, but was fairly accurate none the less. However, there was no leading. It was almost as clean as when it was first loaded except for burnt powder residue.

I know that this is more or less a "band aid", but the other options for me right now are like open heart surgery. I would rather slap a band aid on any day of the week versus doing surgery. Its really not all that much more work like I have said before. And on top of things I can see how it would help the boolit grab onto the rifling a little better.

But the main reason why I am hooked is the leading. To not have to clean the leading out is worth every bit of it. So in reality, even if a gun does not lead much your still having to clean some lead out. In my mind, I would rather exchange cleaning lead out of the barrel for installing gas checks.

I am not saying that I will never do the cone or try different powders. But if I am going to drop more money into the gun it will be in the form of a check maker first, the others next.

[RobS]

The PB gas check maker is awesome as it allows you to have the best of both worlds regards boolit design; either check it or not. I wouldn't trade my PB checkmaker for anything. Your accuracy should be equal to or better that’s for sure and I've never had it the other way with my 45 cal boolits. Shoot enough of them and maybe your bore will work itself out on its own; never know. If you need any advice hit me up with a PM.

[newton]

The PB gas check maker is awesome as it allows you to have the best of both worlds regards boolit design; either check it or not. I wouldn't trade my PB checkmaker for anything. Your accuracy should be equal to or better that’s for sure and I've never had it the other way with my 45 cal boolits. Shoot enough of them and maybe your bore will work itself out on its own; never know. If you need any advice hit me up with a PM.

Thanks for the offer. I am going to work on accuracy in the coming weeks. I also thought that maybe, just maybe the bore might work itself out. I know people say that sometimes it does when shooting j words. But regardless, I am thrilled. I have enough checks to last me a little while and get a good feel for the gun.

[bigboredad]

Rob is the man when it comes to .45's ge really knows what he is doing he has taught me pretty much everything I know about shooting lead out of the .45 colt. He also help me design my last bullet that Tom at accuratemolds.com cut for me and it should scary accurate. Rob also has some designs that Tom cut and they are also scary accurate

[44MAG#1]

My mistake. Sorry.

[bigboredad]

nice shooting 44#mag1

[GSaltzman]

Bigboredad, Would you mind sharing the boolit moulds you are talking about. Looking for another mould or two myself for my 45 Colt Bisley.

[12DMAX]

[QUOTE=RobS;1927599]The PB gas check maker is awesome as it allows you to have the best of both worlds regards boolit design; either check it or not. I wouldn't trade my PB checkmaker for anything. Your accuracy should be equal to or better that’s for sure and I've never had it the other way with my 45 cal boolits. Shoot enough of them and maybe your bore will work itself out on its own; never know. If you need any advice hit me up with a PM.[/QUOT

Were can one purchase one of those PB checkmakers?

[RobS]

12DMAX:

I purchased mine through forum member here PatMarlin however Charlie of FreeChex makes a tool as well but I don't know if he has a PB version.

Pat: http://www.patmarlins.com/

Charlie: http://www.freechex.net/guidance.html

I believe Pat is up and running well now and his turn around time is much improved. A simple email to him will let you know if he has any instock etc. I would guess Charlie the same.

I've had both of their tools and they are nice however I like Pats because it's based off a reloading press. Charlies FreeChexIII tool is faster though if that is an issue in your selection.

[RobS]

44MAG#1:

Nice shooting indeed.

[RobS]

bigboredad gives me too much credit.........I had to go through many molds and mold designs before I figured things out so I'm not really a genius. Simply put I have figured out what not to do.

[RobS]

Bigboredad, Would you mind sharing the boolit moulds you are talking about. Looking for another mould or two myself for my 45 Colt Bisley.

Not bigboredad but I don't think he'll mind:

my two recent that I use for dual purposes of Ruger revolvers/lever actions and a bit shorter nose length to work in the rifles.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-310B-D.png
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-345A-D.png

This one bigboredad did up and has a longer nose to utilize his longer Ruger cylinders.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-340E-D.png

I think another good one by subsonic and is very similar to my 345.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-340D-D.png

I have a few others over on Tom's accuratemold catalog. I've had good luck with secant nose profiles and made up some nice accurate designs but have switched over to tangent ogives because it gives a bit more bearing surface and they are a little easier to work with in the revolvers (they will start to engrave the rifling sooner among a few other things). The rifles didn't care if the nose was secant or tangent other than the secant profile was easier to feed vs the same nose length tangent ogive boolit.

[bigboredad]

Rob and I both agree on the tangent nose profile and both agree that the of your bullet comes in contact with the barrel the better accuracy you'll get. I believe he uses a shorter nose profile because of his lever actions but it also gives him a bunch of bearing surface. I went with the longer nose in case I get a colt clone or new vaquero doubtful but you never know I love the .45 colt round and if the price was right I'd jump. i went with a touch smaller meplat well just because for one Elmer Keith felt 72% was the perfect balance. I'm not in total agreement with everything Elmer did but He did enough things right that I felt that would be the best for ME and that's who I designed the bullets for. So that should be enough info to make bullet choice clear as mud[smilie=s:

[GSaltzman]

Thanks for the Accurate Mould information guy's.

[bigboredad]

what kind of bullet are you looking for? Heavy Light? I believe the .45 comes alive once you get to 300gr. and the max to be about 340-350. I like long bullets and I have had great success with my 45-340E but if you want ot go a bit lighter I would choose RobS 45-310b that bullet does it well at 900-1300fps and is just a great bullet

[44MAG#1]

What are you guys hunting that you need a 310 to 345 gr bullet in a 45 Colt?
Is it just the fantisizing about being in africa or alaskan while hunting the dreaded Cape Buffalo or the Alaskan Brown Bear?
What is in the lower 48 or even alaska that anRCBS 270 SAA bullet wouldn't take care of if heat treated properly and and pushed at a decent velocity?
Just wondering? I dream too. Nothing wrong with that.
I have some heavies too but i woke up one day and realized it was just a fantasy.
I still wear cowboy boots even now. Don't wear my hats anymore though. Did smoke a few cigars too. Still shoot Keith style bullets too.
Ahhhh the past. The child in all of us.

[RobS]

What are you guys hunting that you need a 310 to 345 gr bullet in a 45 Colt?
Is it just the fantisizing about being in africa or alaskan while hunting the dreaded Cape Buffalo or the Alaskan Brown Bear?
What is in the lower 48 or even alaska that anRCBS 270 SAA bullet wouldn't take care of if heat treated properly and and pushed at a decent velocity?
Just wondering? I dream too. Nothing wrong with that.
I have some heavies too but i woke up one day and realized it was just a fantasy.
I still wear cowboy boots even now. Don't wear my hats anymore though. Did smoke a few cigars too. Still shoot Keith style bullets too.
Ahhhh the past. The child in all of us.

I shoot the design I do because it works and no you dont have to shoot one of the big 5 African animals or whatever to enjoy the accuracy from a great shooting boolit. Now if the RCBS 270 SAA works for you great........I had it shooting one inch groups too. What is your issue with how others do things? Is it because others manage differently than you? Interesting to say the least.

[44MAG#1]

RobS:

A simple question doen not mean an issue? Have you never asked a question of someone before. I guess I don't know all the answers yet in my 60 years so I still have to ask a question from time to time. I am sorry for my lack of intellegence.
I asked a question that is it and nothing more. Please don't read anymore into than that.
As I stated I HAVE some heavy molds. I have a 420 gr. 452 mold. Use to play with it in a 454 Casull. I have a 340 LBT LFN GC mold also a 360 WFN LBT. I shot a 350 gr in my 45 Colt Saturday. But it was just for the giggles of it and because I haven't shot any in a long time. Not because I feel I need them in Tennessee.
Of course one day I may run upon a killer whitetail or a hog with murder in his eyes and need a heavy to stop them. [smilie=w:[smilie=w:
I have just come to realize I don't need a bullet that big for what I do so shoot mostly the Mihec 270 SAA bullet that weighs out at 280 gr.
Don't be so sensitive when a question is asked. If everyone knew everything there was to know about everything there is to know anything about we would not need these forums.
Just like if all people were perfect we wouldn't need churches.
Oh yes, I have some 300 gr XTP's 300 gr Speer Uni Core SP's and a few 300 gr Sierra's too.
Besides if I run into a monster that above target I posted was shot with a 515 gr bullet in my BFR45/70 at 1250 chronoed . I have run it up to 1450 so I guess I have the artillery for that whopper if I see him.

[RobS]

44MAG#1:
I guess I read your humor wrong in post #178. No harm, I see you used emotioncons in post #180. I suppose it's sometimes difficult online to tell if someone is serious or sarcastic.



Just wondering? I dream too. Nothing wrong with that.
I have some heavies too but i woke up one day and realized it was just a fantasy.
I still wear cowboy boots even now. Don't wear my hats anymore though. Did smoke a few cigars too. Still shoot Keith style bullets too.
Ahhhh the past. The child in all of us.

[bigboredad]

well yeah I still wear cowboy boots and I wear cowboy hats been known to have a big ole ceegar around either for chewing on or smoking. I still enjoy a good glass of whiskey and like to pretend I live in a world where I can say what I want how I want when I want and I like to pretend my guns are safe and the president is still an American. I also like to pretend we are all on this site to help each other. I have no beef with you and never had so I happily explain my choices. For me I have found that the .45 colt loves heavy bullets also the heavies seem to be a lot less picky. Right now mt favorite is coming in at 346gr I can shoot it at 950fps or all the way up to 1350 with my preference being somewhere between 1100 and 1200fps another western boy from Idaho confirmed that velocity was a decent velocity to reach for so I was happy to see I wasn't the only one. I do have my moments where I like to run them as fast as I can but then I am happy where they are. I have had 270-290 and spent tons of time trying to get them what I wanted them to do then found out just about any suitable powder for the heavies will easily do what I want the bullets to do. Who knows I may go full circle one day and be just as happy with 250-255gr bullets loping along at 750-850fps till then I have to be ready for that rogue western squirrel that charges with out warning

[44MAG#1]

My actual go to load for the Mihec 270 SAA (280gr) is 19 gr 2400 or 24 gr H110.
I do use 6 gr bullseye for 25 yard plinking especially if i let someone shoot that has no experience.
The loads I use aren't light but aren't max either.
I use the same 2 loads in my Blackhawks, my Redhawk and my New Vaquero.
I have a 4 inch S&W Mountain Gun.
I use the same 515 gr bullet I use in the 45/70 sized .451" to fit my 454 Casull 12 inch Encore barrel at a chronoed 1250 fps. Haven't shot it since early fall though.
Guess i will be careful on trying to inject humor from now on.
But then again the OP, whom we know nothing about as far as his ability, and there are people recommending 310 to 345 gr bullets to him. He may be so recoil sensitive that he may need to take a change of underwear to the range with him for his drive home or he may be a Godzilla and can fire a 500 S&W with Cor-Bon 440 factory loads holding it in his teeth.
Now that needs a woohoo too.[smilie=w:[smilie=w:
Everyone have a great day.

[bigboredad]

good point about the op and amount of experience I sometime forget that not everyone has the experince or the knowledge of how to load a gun to his or her levels. I find the 300-345 more pleasant to shoot than and much less snappy than the lighter bullets. I tried your 24gr load with the mihec and personally it was so snappy and it twisted my wrist so quick that is was just down right uncomfy. But load the 21.5gr of 296 behind a 340gr bullet and it is a very large push that to me is tolerable. The important thing is to find what works for you and what is your comfy level. It doesn't mean poop to anyone else. It's also why I don't post groups who really care how I shoot I only try to impress myself and my wife but at the end of the day who cares she still sleeps in my bed so really I only have to impress myself

[newton]

Well, I guess this thread has digressed...:popcorn:

And I would post a picture of myself, I guess so you guys could size me up and all, but that might just be a little weird. ha ha ha.

Anyways, yes I am new to handguns. Recoil shy...yes. I can force my way through it with a rifle, but have not yet mastered the pistol. I guess with a rifle I am not afraid of dropping the gun and so I let my shoulder just get hammered. With the pistol I am afraid of dropping it and so I tend to hold it too tight. However, I do well with a rest because I am not afraid of dropping the gun.

Regardless, I am a big boy(figuratively speaking) and fully understand that heavy boolits more often equate to heavy kickers. So if I ever loaded them I would expect to get some kick from them, it would not be a surprise; and the last time I had to change underwear was when I ate too much greasy food at deer camp one night and put too much trust in a fart the next morning.

One day I might make the roles of the pistola elitists around here...but I'm really not trying right now. I'm happy to just have my gun shooting well.

[Lonegun1894]

Regardless of what anyone may think, the impoirtant thing is that you're having fun and learning. We all have good and bad days, but as time goes on, the good days get better, and the bad days get less frequent. Look at it this way, when I started, I couldn't keep 6 rds from my first handgun (a .22) on a life size human silhouette at 10 yds. Before I wore that gun out, I could keep the full cylinder on the same silhouette at 150yds, and keep 6 in the head at 100yds. I have better quality guns now than that first one ever though of being, and my groups show it, some days. You have a good gun, and are getting it figured out. Dont obsess over it and allow it to frustrate you. Just have fun with it, and continue working with it, and you will do fine. The more you shoot it, the better you and the gun will perform together. Just dont expect it overnight, and whatever you do, don't give up. Now go have some fun an quit worrying.