How tight is too tight?

[mnkyracer]

Hello all -
How tight can a Lee 7/8 slug + wad be in a bbl before it causes a problem? I found a load that shoots fairly well thru a smoothbore (wad + slug is snug when pushed thru bbl). However, when checking bbl fit on a rifled Mossberg 835, it was extremely tight, to the point that I only started the wad/slug into the end of the bbl and still had to use PVC and a hammer to knock it out.

The wad is a WAA12 (white) w/ a .110 card under the slug. Using 3 cards under the slug spaced it out far enough to provide a snug fit thru the bore.

BTW - the most accurate load for the Charles Daly smoothebore was as follows:
Rem gun club hulls
Win 209 primers
33 gr HS-6
WAA12SL (pink) wad with petals cut off
.110 card
WAA12 cup w/ .110 card - petals clipped above widest part of slug
Roll crimped

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Mnkyracer, when checking for tightness do that without the nitro cards and push the slug with wooden dowel backwards for this test,
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg
Hope it helps.
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[Vander Donckt]

VdoMemorie,

Have the test done with the 12 GA commander wad (siarm Z2M wad) and Lee 1oz slug.
The assembly does not fit the barrel(OD O,739-0,740).

My slug measures 0,683 and should be 0,673 to fit according to the ID of the wad when seated in the barrel without slug.
The palets of the commander measures 0,027

I used some harder lead for casting in place of pure lead and drop them in water out of the mould.
Would size make 0,01 difference with pure lead?
Maybe any tips on reducing the size of my Lee slug.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Vander Donckt, just put the slug in each wad and try to push it through with 6 to 10 lbs pressure and which ever goes through the smooth bore barrel with 10 lbs pressure is your slug/wad combo for that barrel for accuracy, remember to push it backwards like in the picture and to nitro card for this test!
Please post some pictures of this Z2M wad, nice clear pictures if you can so we all can see that European wad!
Hope it helps.
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[mnkyracer]

Vdo - my smooth bore fits great. What I am questioning is my rifled bbl. A hard push into the muzzle only sends the slug in to just below the widest part of the slug. Due to the taper of the petals, spacing it up .330 gets the fit almost perfect.

On another note, I did a quick test w/ my dad's 870 with screw in rifled choke. 25 yd 4 shot group all cut holes. Now I need to get more wads before trying to extend the range.

[Vander Donckt]

Vdo,

Here some pictures of the Wad.
The Z2M is sold in the US under the name Commander.
The palets of the wad measures 0,027.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_112515078710162c36.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7012) http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_112515078712b595a8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7013)

What is the thickness of the palets of the commander wad you posted here

[jmsj]

VdoMemorie,

Have the test done with the 12 GA commander wad (siarm Z2M wad) and Lee 1oz slug.
The assembly does not fit the barrel(OD O,739-0,740).

My slug measures 0,683 and should be 0,673 to fit according to the ID of the wad when seated in the barrel without slug.
The palets of the commander measures 0,027

I used some harder lead for casting in place of pure lead and drop them in water out of the mould.
Would size make 0,01 difference with pure lead?
Maybe any tips on reducing the size of my Lee slug.

Vander Donckt,
I made a couple of sizers to size my Lee key drive slugs down to fit different chokes. Here is a picture of some of my slugs.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae97/jmsj515/010-1.jpg
The one on the left is unsized .685", middle sized to .680" and the one on the right is sized down to .672"
I was asked to post a pictures of the sizers but my camera died and I never got around to posting pictures when I got a new camera. The sizer is basically a cylinder bored out and honed to a diameter with a 2 or 3 degree taper at the entrance to make it easier to start the slug into the sizer. I made a pusher to drive the slug throught the sizer die about .002" smaller than the diameter of the sizing die and the top of the pusher turned down to .500". The set up is used in my mill or 1/2" drill press. This kind of set up can be used in an arbor press also.
The slugs in the picture were cast from WW's and water dropped. I used WD40 as a sizing lubricant. The .680" slugs were easy to size as you can see in the picture that only a narrow band was sized. The .672" slugs were considerably harder to size but were not overly difficult to size in the 1/2" drill press. Slugs made out of pure Pb should be a breeze to size.
Good luck, jmsj

[Vander Donckt]

Jmsj,

Thanks for the info looks very nice.
Thought I was the only one that would be sizing the lee slug.

Have made a cylinder to size them, but they came out .680.
Still have to make a smaller one.
Don't have a lathe, so everything must be made by hand using a hand drill.

To you make your sizing cylinder smaller than the desired diameter?
Are you sizing in 2 steps to get the to .672, and head first a guess?

Would be nice if i could make something to fit my lee classic cast press.

Sincerly
Dominique VD

[jmsj]

Vander Donckt,
Man that must have been a lot of work making your sizer on a drill press.
I can run the slugs down to .672" in one step but it takes a lot of pressure and sometimes the slugs look like they are getting distorted. I have not checked those for run out but they did not look quite right. I found it easier to run them through the .680" sizer first then final size to .672" and use some type sizing lubricant. I have been "tumble lubing" w/ WD40 not because it the best but because I seem to always have some around and it is inexpensive. Remember that my slugs were WDWW, using pure Pb, ACWW or some softer alloy will be easier.
I size base first. If you look at the picture of the .680" slug you will notice that it only sized near the top of the skirt section near the start of the ogive. The skirt of the slug is really tapered with the base being smaller than the top of the skirt. This lets you "ease" into the harder part of the sizing operation and seems to keep the slug aligned. Also the slugs that I sized nose first had finning around the base. This finnning might be able to be eliminated by making a tighter fitting pusher.
I would think that it would be tough to make a sizer for a standard 7/8"-14 press. The major diameter for a 7/8"-14 thread is .875"and the minor diameter would be even smaller. With a sizer cavity of .680"-.672" would only leave a thin wall thickness to carry the stress of the sizing operation. I made my sizer from 1018 steel. Maybe it would be possible if a stronger alloy was used but it would also be tougher to machine
Hope this helps, jmsj

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Dominique VD , I just put my 1oz Lee slug in Commander wad and the upper point measurement were .732 to .734 with a .125-16 nitro card below slug in wad, now if your barrel is .730 to .731 then it would be ok but if your barrel ID is .726 to .727 it would raise pressure and depending on your barrel thickness, as most barrels are quite thin, could be a problem.
That's why I want you to push the slug in wad to see if its safe to shoot it before you load a whole bunch only to find out they are not safe to shoot in your gun.
Better safe than sorry, try another wad like Fed.12 C-1.
Hope it helps.
Ajay
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[Vander Donckt]

Guys,

Thanks for the information.

Federal wads are available through Midway Germany (12S0,12S3 no C1), but costs more than 20 $/250 and 25 $ shipping.

To get wads here from ballisticproducts (really nice people there) but 48$ shipping + 18$ Int handling fee +import taxes.

I will try to make a sizing cylinder that makes the slugs suitable for the commander wad.
These are the only wads that are readily available here through Italy (siarm).
Will cast pure lead and try to make it cast smaller size.

Have someone who wants to make a sizing cylinder for me, but will take a while.
My press accepts 1 1/4-12 large series dies, so maybe i can adapt a big sizing die for it.

Will keep you updated

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning, I just checked again the Lee 1oz slug in

Win AA112F114 yellow wad with .125-16 nitro card below slug and the top part of the slug measures .724-.725", no longer being made but if you search you can still find them!

Fed.12S-3 purple wad with .125-16 nitro card below slug and the top part of the slug measures .727-.728" just right for you, these wads are available every where!

My RCBS Rock chuker press is a heavy duty press with 1 1/4-12 threads but its a lot of extra work when you can buy wads that will fit!
Hope it helps.
Ajay
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[jmsj]

My RCBS Rock chuker press is a heavy duty press with 1 1/4-12 threads but its a lot of extra work when you can buy wads that will fit!
Hope it helps.
Ajay
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.PreciousVideoMemories.com[/QUOTE]
Ajay,
I have found The best accuracy (in my loads) using Federal 12S3 wads. I got tired of buying wads only to use a few only to find that the wads did not hold up and group as well as the 12S3 wads. By adjusting the diameter of the Lee slug I was able to get a little more accuracy in my smoothbores and was able to taylor loads for two different chokes. Also I did not have to start from scratch in developing a load.
But I have access to a lathe, materials and enjoy building my own tools. These are pretty simple and took less than an hour to machine.
jmsj

[Vander Donckt]

Got my first tests done with the commander wad and Lee slug.
Grouping was around 3 inches at 25 yards.
impact was a bit high compared to the aim point.

The recoil was pretty hard with the standard Rio load.
They were fun to shoot.

The maximum allowed projectile at the range in my home-club is 45.
Is there a sabot that uses 45 cal (bullets) slugs for 12GA, so that we can shoot the 12ga at our home-club?