600yds with a 1911

[subsonic]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/10/robert-farago/world-records-set-for-45-acp-pistol-at-600-and-200-yards-by-lippard-1911-a2-handguns-lippard-1911-a2a3-upgraded-pistols-allegedly/

:coffeecom

[MtGun44]

I used to hit a 18" gong at 200 yds from standing with a very ordinary Gold Cup
and very ordinary IPSC ammo H&G 68 at 950 fps about 5 of 7. Not impossible,
never tried it myself.

Most people won't believe what you can do with a handgun at long range. I am
way past thinking this is impossible.

Bill

[Hickory]

Karl Lippard should have been running the camera.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/robert-farago/karl-lippard-600-yard-a2-combat-nco-1911-fail/

[44man]

I do not doubt it at all. I did not watch the video but I did watch a Marine shoot IHMSA with a 1911, off hand. He hit almost every steel but he could not put them on the ground, just no energy left. No bullet momentum but accuracy was there.
So even if a .45 ACP hit at 600 yards, what would it do?

[subsonic]

So even if a .45 ACP hit at 600 yards, what would it do?

Can't have much oomph left, but I sure wouldn't want to catch one!

[Oreo]

Strelok balistics ap says a 230gr xtp (bc = .188) with a mv of 1000fps on a 75°F day will be going 650fps @ 600yds.

[fishhawk]

I have never been able to get one out of my 1911 to even go that far!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

With my .270 at 600 yards I was holding the horizontal crosshair on the top of the lane number board which was over the top target paper which had a 1’ bull. Estimated hold 5 to 6 feet high over the bullseye. An iron sighted .45 ACP? He must have found a rock on the hillside to us as a holdover mark and there must have been zero wind. Still I am skeptical. The .270 load was Hornady 150 gr SSt’s over 55.7 gr of H4831. A revolver maestro might fix his obsession on a 1911 for a 600 yard task, but the finished product had iron sights? I am skeptical.

[Oreo]

Strelok says its a hold-over of nearly 52ft! Talk about a hail mary. A rock on the hill wouldn't be enough. I'm thinking he picked a cloud and aimed at that.

[Dan Cash]

You fellers have not been shooting long range very much.

[Mk42gunner]

Elmer Keith explained how to aim a handgun at long range many years ago. You do it not by holding over (and thus obscuring) the target, but by holding the front sight up out of the rear sight notch and perching the target on top of the front sight. This was the reason for the multiple gold lines on his front sight; they weren't for a specific range, but for reference when holding the front sight up.

I have shot just enough long range with various handguns to verify the concept. It is a lot easier to do in the dry dusty western United States where bullet stikes can be easily seen than it is to do with lots of grass to mask the dust.

Robert

[44man]

Strelok says its a hold-over of nearly 52ft! Talk about a hail mary. A rock on the hill wouldn't be enough. I'm thinking he picked a cloud and aimed at that.
About right, my 45-70 BFR has to be held somewhere around 26' high. No way to measure because it will be a tree branch way above the steel.
You can not use open sights and raise the front out of the rear notch enough, it also takes a LOT of barrel.
My .44 drops 35" at 200 yards with a 75 yard setting using my 330 gr boolit. I can not imagine drop at 500 meters (547 yards.) to 600 yards.
Yet I do find accuracy even with crazy drop rates.
Some of our guns really do need cloud settings. :mrgreen:
The huge, heavy boolits from the .475 and JRH actually drop LESS even with a WFN.
Our boolits indeed go far but just where do you aim?

[Wolfer]

Elmer Keith explained how to aim a handgun at long range many years ago. You do it not by holding over (and thus obscuring) the target, but by holding the front sight up out of the rear sight notch and perching the target on top of the front sight. This was the reason for the multiple gold lines on his front sight; they weren't for a specific range, but for reference when holding the front sight up.

I have shot just enough long range with various handguns to verify the concept. It is a lot easier to do in the dry dusty western United States where bullet stikes can be easily seen than it is to do with lots of grass to mask the dust.

Robert

This is the only way I can get repeatable performance at long range. My 7.5" new vaquero will require the entire front sight and a little bit of barrel above the rear sight @ 500 yds.
I can lob boolits all around the gong but I can't remember ever hitting it.

[Mk42gunner]

I remember plinking with a SIG 220 and 200 gr SWC at a yellow Prestone gallon jug at somewhere around 1/4 mile. The front sight had to be elevated enough that the top of the rear sight was even with the front of the ejection port.

Were we bullseye accurate? No. Could you have paid me enough money to hold the gallon jug? No. There were numerous near misses and a few hits.

Right load, right gun and consistant hold are very important.

Robert

[MtGun44]

I have done some amazing things at several hundred yards with a handgun, at least
amazing to those that think a 4" group at 25 yds is good accuracy.

Hold up the front sight, squeeze very carefully and you'll be surprised what you can do.

Bill

[oscarflytyer]

Strelok balistics ap says a 230gr xtp (bc = .188) with a mv of 1000fps on a 75°F day will be going 650fps @ 600yds.

sounds like a 38 Spc at prob 15-20 yds out of a snubbie!

[oscarflytyer]

LR handgun is a hoot! I once ran off two guys w/ scoped 30-30s... 200 yd 24" steel plate. I was shooting 7 1/2" Ruger SBH 44 mag, 265 gr FP, irons off sandbags. It was VERY easy to hit 5 or 6 of 6 - almost effortless once ranged in. Used the EK method of extra front sight.

30-30 guys couldn't hit it w/ scopes!!! Tickled the $h!t out of me! One guy came down, watched me ding it a few times, asked me to verify, and then they promptly packed up and left. Loved it!!!

[ole 5 hole group]

600 yards is a long way to shoot groups with an open fixed sight 1911 but with a semi-custom/custom 1911 capable of shooting 1.5" or less 10 shot groups at 50 yards and ammunition to match, it can be done with some difficulty from a solid handgun marksman.

I have no idea why he wouldn't just mill the slide for a reflex red dot and install backup irons in front of the red dot regulated to whatever distance he preferred from 50 to 75 yards. It's a whole lot easier hitting long range targets with a red dot than it is using irons - just saying.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

As far as not knowing anything about long range pistol shooting; I have taken 2nd place in a National Match shooting revolver in Long Range Metalicas Sihouettas, plus I have hit the 12” steel plate at 200 yards with a fixed sight Colt SAA at our local range and knocked down human silhouette targets at our local military base’s M-16 range with a Berretta 9mm pistol. I am skeptical of this story. Even at 200 meters the difference between the .44 Special and the .44 Magnum is more than a little significant. A .45 ACP factory hollowpoint? With a fixed sight 1911? Certainly interesting with a 7-30 Waters or a .41 or a .44 Mag but the rock I was imagining must have been on the top of a very tall hill behind the target. The front sight cannot be raised out of the rear notch, and the .45 ACP is less than a .45 Long Colt which is ill equipped compared to a modern magnums for distance. Certainly one could build a 1911 for the purpose of hitting at 600 yards but I don’t think it would look like any other common 1911. Even if one welded the front sight off a Ruger Blackhawk onto the front of the slide.
I’m going deer hunting with my family this weekend. Maybe I’ll get a chance to give this a try. The 1911 is limited by the front sight height which cannot be raised out of the rear sight notch.

[subsonic]

I assume everybody sees the stepped front sight and that the sights are taller than normal.

What would happen if a fellow machined or otherwise marked a dashed line down the top of the slide for when you need more than the front sight? You could still line that mark up in the rear sight - if you can see it.

[waksupi]

You fellers have not been shooting long range very much.


Full agreement here. You find it much easier in practice, than in theory. Until you try it yourself, theory is all it is. I've shot pistols a darn sight further than 600 yards. And hit.

[MtGun44]

"the front sight cannot be raised out of the notch" . . . . .????

Unless I misunderstand you- you are totally wrong about this.

Bill

[shotstring]

I don't think so. There was a lot of b.s. describing the infallibility of the gun itself but claiming that kind of consistency at 600 yards with a 45 acp with factory ammunition simply defies physics.

Granted, hand guns can provide some long range accuracy and I have repeatedly rung a 12 inch gong 10 out of 10 shots with a revolver in 45 long colt as any decent shot with some practice could do. Using 45 long colt, 357 magnum, 44 magnum or even 9 mm are good long range cartridges, although 600 yards would certainly test consistency in any of them.

But 45 acp IS NOT a good long range handgun cartridge and wasn't designed as one. It drops like a stone starting at 50 yards and after a few hundred is simply off the chart. Just a slight difference in ammunition loading components, powder, grip pressure, sight picture, mirage, humidity or god knows what else would cause any consistency of this round at 600 yards to be amplified to the degree that putting the 8 or 10 rounds on target as claimed to be more than a little suspect. ANY error at all would cause impact to be off by feet, not inches and lots of them.

I'll bet most of you are thinking the same thing that I am on this.

[Oreo]

I've never tried 100yds with a handgun, let alone 600 but I fail to see what the difference is between 45acp and 45lc and the others that makes for a difference in concistency. Essentially, what you're claiming is that factory ammo of a certain brand and type will have a smaller standard deviation mv in 45lc then in 45acp. Is there any hard data that bears this out?

Otherwise, poor aim by 1/2moa will miss the same with both, and 1/2moa with open irons is tough with a 20" sight radius, and really damn tough with a 5" sight radius. I'm thinking you either have the skill or you don't, regardless of the ammo. Otherwise it really is just a hail mary shot and walk the impact plumes to the target.

[btroj]

I don't think so. There was a lot of b.s. describing the infallibility of the gun itself but claiming that kind of consistency at 600 yards with a 45 acp with factory ammunition simply defies physics.

Granted, hand guns can provide some long range accuracy and I have repeatedly rung a 12 inch gong 10 out of 10 shots with a revolver in 45 long colt as any decent shot with some practice could do. Using 45 long colt, 357 magnum, 44 magnum or even 9 mm are good long range cartridges, although 600 yards would certainly test consistency in any of them.

But 45 acp IS NOT a good long range handgun cartridge and wasn't designed as one. It drops like a stone starting at 50 yards and after a few hundred is simply off the chart. Just a slight difference in ammunition loading components, powder, grip pressure, sight picture, mirage, humidity or god knows what else would cause any consistency of this round at 600 yards to be amplified to the degree that putting the 8 or 10 rounds on target as claimed to be more than a little suspect. ANY error at all would cause impact to be off by feet, not inches and lots of them.

I'll bet most of you are thinking the same thing that I am on this.

Care to stand 600 yards away and prove that?

I have no doubt that with some practice a guy with a decent 1911 could learn to hit pretty darn close to where he aimed at 600 yards. Much depends on the size of the target but I sure wouldn't want to be the target!

Never under estimate the abilities of some people to shoot really well. Itis even worse when you under estimate the abilities of people to do things because nobody told them it can't work.

[762 shooter]

I'm not sure I understand some of the posts here.

Are you saying that the feat is impossible?

Are you saying the guy is a liar?

Are you saying it is a hoax?

Are you saying it is a conspiracy by all the people present to sell 1911's?

I'm sure the 7 or 8 people that were said to be there could be verified.

It does seem fantastic. But what are you saying?

762

[Oreo]

There seems to be a gap between what some think is possible on a very lucky day a couple of times or so with a tricked out pistol and what some say is possible and repeatable with any ordinary handgun.

[shotstring]

I'm not sure I understand some of the posts here.

Are you saying that the feat is impossible?

Are you saying the guy is a liar?

Are you saying it is a hoax?

Are you saying it is a conspiracy by all the people present to sell 1911's?

I'm sure the 7 or 8 people that were said to be there could be verified.

It does seem fantastic. But what are you saying?

762

I can't say what actually happened because I wasn't there. But to me, they directly implied that an average joe could replicate this feat or close to it using their fantastic space age 1911 made from difficult-to-obtainium.

To my mind, shooting a handgun at 600 yards is akin to shooting a rifle at 1000 yards. Not impossible, but very difficult. If someone said they grouped all their shots at 1000 yards inside a two foot circle or even an 8 inch circle using a 308 or 300 win mag, I would think that was certainly probable. If they said they did it using a 22 rifle with 22 factory long rifle ammunition, I would tend to think they stretched the truth a bit as there are too many elements of physics fighting that happening consistently.

Same with 45 acp factory ammunition in a 1911. Factory ammunition is simply not a flat enough shooting round to group consistently at long distance. The 45 colt rounds I shot at less than 1/3 the distance were hot handloads and very flat shooting for handgun rounds but even if the gun was put in a ransom rest, I doubt it could shoot anywhere near the consistent groups they got at 600 yards. The 45 acp factory round has half the velocity of a hot 45 long colt or magnum handgun round and drops so fast, any mistake is amplified to the degree that lobbing shells on target is more a matter of luck than skill, even for an expert shooter. To do it repeatedly and consistently and then to attribute that to new fancy gun begs of being a scam.

If they really did it, I would be mightily impressed, but would have to see it with my own eyes.

[Ola]

I've shot enough at the 200 meter siluette range with semiauto pistols to say, that it takes a good pistol to get consistency. The ram is quite big target but still it usually takes more than one shot to hit it. Even with adjustable sights correctly adjusted.

600 yards? Pure luck with "tilting barrel" semiauto out-of-the-box factory-made service pistol. This feat was probably NOT done with one of those?

MR-1 600 Yard High Power Rifle Competition Target size is six foot by six foot? If so, from rested position, with high quality pistol it sounds plausible.

[762 shooter]

I understand the logistics and physics of the shooting problem.

I understand now that if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. No problem.

762

[MtGun44]

LOL!

"If I can't do it, nobody can do it." Is a common, yet very narrow minded view.

Since I have seen some really, really amazing shots, and made shots that I would have
seriously doubted before I tried them, I do NOT say "it can't be done".

Bill

[firefly1957]

My ballistics program gives a 230 gr. RN bullet starting at 850 f/s has 471 f/s and 113 foot pounds of energy with a drop of 200 inches (16 feet) at 600 yards. The rest is up to the shooter my guess is it just may penetrate well too as there is little chance of expansion.

[TXGunNut]

Wasn't there, don't know any of the guys who were there but I believe it happened. Furthermore, I don't think the record will stand a year. And no, I won't be the new record-holder. :mrgreen: Quite frankly I'm impressed that the bullet remained stable for 600 yds. Sounds like fun. :Fire:

[aa1911]

I frequently take pot shots at stuff 100 meters + with just about any handgun I might be shooting. Sure, you miss quite a bit but sometimes it's amazing how close you can get at long range. 600 is a bit much, most people can't hit much at that range with a rifle!

my little SP101 in .357 can hit a human sized sillouhette at 100m with surprising consistency, for a 3" barrel/sight radius, it's stupid accurate.

pretty interesting handgun though

[357maximum]

The doubters here have never watched Babore and his Smith686 shoot 900 fps plinker loads at tiny distant rocks. I could not do 600 consistently as I am not steady enough, but I bet with a few sighter rounds he could do it regularly enough to shut most naysayers up right quick.

[shotstring]

I re-read the article and find that the feat was less impressive than I originally thought. They didn't hit anything but the paper to somehow score 38 and supposedly the lowest scoring ring on the target they claimed to use is 5 - so a score of 38 is impossible with 8 scoring hits. Anything outside the 5 ring would be scored as zero.

Hitting a target roughly the size of a car at 600 yards with a 1911 enters into the "who cares" category. That isn't marksmanship - that's lobbing pumpkins at a Ford Falcon sitting out in a ploughed field. Doing the math for a very good shooting 1911 - 3 inches at 50 yards, 6 inches at 100 yards, 12 at 200, 24 at 400 and 36 inches at 600 yards as the very best that can be hoped for under optimal conditions, which these weren't. They even complained about the inconsistency of the velocity of the ammunition - now add fixed iron sights, a feeble old shooter with average talent shooting off a sandbag not a ransom rest - add a dash of wind.

Add the fact that they wrote it like a sham-wow commercial simply turned me off. It is certainly possible, and my Les Baer has a documented test target of under 1 1/2 inch at 50 yards, so a VERY accurate gun could even cut down those figures listed above. I simply chose not to believe that they did it and in the way they described because they were SELLING and selling hard, and not simply reporting.

[ole 5 hole group]

Can’t quite agree with that statement shotstring – that target has a 60-inch diameter scoring area and only a 36 inch black area, which only includes the 7 ring – 36 inches at 600 yards is really a small aiming area and when you’re using a 5 inch barrel 1911 possessing a short sight radius that’s really no small feat. Not easy with a rifle either, so lobbing those pumpkins downrange and hitting that target consistently is no small feat and I for one, would call it long-range marksmanship. I was thinking the score was a typo – the way his shooting was described, I would think it’s 58, not 38.

It can be done no doubt, as we just read it and can verify if we so wish. Can some of us do it? I would think so, but it sure won’t be done by your average rifle/pistol range attendee. As in my 1st post – you need a very accurate 1911 with ammunition to match, a solid marksman and I left out Lady Luck, as she’s the one that keeps Murphy at bay and she’s always welcome on the line.

That “feeble old shooter with average talent” as you described him is probably just a bit better in the talent department and has a way to go yet before reaching that feeble stage. I’m a little older than he is and I can raise hell with a 24” gong at 300 yards with proper sunlight using my Baer 1911 with the 1.5 option having a milled slide topped with a deltapoint off a rest – now 600 yards is a bird of a different feather and I’d probably need to have a younger man carry the necessary amount of ammo to my bench just to get dialed in.:D

[44man]

Open sights are useless and so are many scopes if you shoot far.
But then again, not so useless. I aim at a certain tree branch way over a target. It takes a few shots with a good spotter to determine how high so drop really does not matter, just find a higher branch.
Shooting single shots and revolvers to 500 meters (547 yards) had very few guns that I could get an actual sight adjustment. I was able to do it with a SRH with a scope and kept 12 out of 12 shots in a 5 gallon bucket. Most single shots just ran out of clicks with open sights so just find something above to aim at.
I had silver lines inlaid in the front sights but there is a limit to distance. You can start to use the barrel but that is hit and miss.
Fellas that have no background behind targets will be at a loss.
An accurate gun can shoot very, very far even if a weak caliber. Just sticking the front sight up in the rear will not do it. I am not talking about shooting a car but a steel IHMSA ram.

[shotstring]

That “feeble old shooter with average talent” as you described him is probably just a bit better in the talent department and has a way to go yet before reaching that feeble stage. I’m a little older than he is and I can raise hell with a 24” gong at 300 yards with proper sunlight using my Baer 1911 with the 1.5 option having a milled slide topped with a deltapoint off a rest – now 600 yards is a bird of a different feather and I’d probably need to have a younger man carry the necessary amount of ammo to my bench just to get dialed in.:D

I was just loosely quoting the way they described the shooter in the article. You and I aren't too much different I would think 5 hole, although you have a couple of years on me. I too felt instant love for a Baer 1911 with a 1.5 option, although my test target seems to indicate that better groups are possible. I grew up in your neighboring state of South Dakota. I too love the challenge of disturbing a target that most likely felt safe as could be several hundred yards away from anyone with a firearm.

And the worst of it all is now you, I , or someone else here will probably have to test this reckless story of this long distance accuracy. Since the area I live in does not give me access to a 600 yard range, sadly it won't be me at least until after I move. This whole affair did make me curious as to what group a 1911 is capable of shooting at 600 yards. Would love to put one in a ransom rest - then move the target over to the place the bullet impacted to take all variables out of the equation. Would like to see what the group size would be on a good inch and a half gun like we have, or something better if available. I haven't seen one that will shoot better than that, although Camp Perry has rumors of a few custom guns that are sub one inch guns at 50 yards.

And what group would a standard 4 or 5 inch gun deliver? How much does the last 3 or 4 hundred yards effect the size of the group? I must admit, I would love to know so I can provide covering fire at 600 yards with a 1911 against zombies attacking in sports cars. It could happen.

[45 2.1]

Lots of varied replies here. The cartridge is capable... it is subsonic in the first place and flies well way out there. That has been proven with Contenders, Rugers and single shot rifles in this caliber. Stock 1911 pistols, on the other hand, are sometimes bad and sometimes very good. It depends a lot on the sights, who's hand it is in and the quality of ammo in it. Don't believe for a second that you are safe at 600 yds. from someone who knows what they are doing. You could be very surprised............

[357maximum]

I had 24k gold lines inlaid & it shoots a bit further :kidding:

Too cheap for the platinum upgrade eh?:bigsmyl2:

[firefly1957]

I have made and seen some really incredible long shots with open sights on pistols it is easier if you know your gun and where those bullets will go. I once fired at a fox on the other side of a open swamp with my 1911 and some 1943 steel cased 230 gr corrosive ammo (it was 1978) I must have held thirty feet above it when I fired the Fox jumped up spun around ran about ten feet and turned around looking my way, then the slug hit the water just about 5 feet from were it was previously drinking. I emptied two clips trying to get another shot there with no success at all many fell 50 yds short!

[bigboredad]

I love posts it inspires me to improve and I always learn something from someone else and I have learned from this one. It also reminds me of when I was a OTR truck driver and some guy would ask me how many miles I ran a week. I always got the same answer and it's the same mentality of the nay sayers here if they can't do it nobody. Sure I had a triple digit truck and I new when and where and what I could get away with and at times the seat felt permently stuck to a** so I guess the moral is know your equipment know the area you shoot and just cause you can't do it now doesn't mean you can't learn

[.45Cole]

If I may make an observation-
many of the "more finely experienced" (by time, not hands-on) seem to think this is probable (everything is possible) and I would venture to guess that they are first hand observers of saying something isn't possible, and then seeing it done. Taking a firm negative stance on this and then it being true is a hard fall. Trying the impossible makes success more sensational. Maybe best summarized by "never say never"

P.S. I have found holding over to be a horrible way of distance shooting. Raising up the blade in the notch on a BH works to about 200 some yds until you hit the bbl. On an old .22 I use (511) the shadow of the front blade about 3" down the bbl to shoot at a metal thing on a hill some 400yds out and 50yds elevation, works pretty well when you hear the metallic ricochet indicating a hit! (but it's far out and we only hit about 1/20 shots, the gun wasn't made for such precision)

[44man]

It tickles me when a famous gun writer shoots a .500 revolver at 20 yards.
It is always amazing how far a handgun can shoot.
The boolit does not just quit and fall out of the sky.
Accuracy is always how you load and what the gun can do.
I once took hair off a running chuck with my flat top .44 mag. We paced long 36" paces to 550 yards.
I knew my gun and never thought it was a 7 yard shooter.

[44MAG#1]

It tickles me when a famous gun writer shoots a .500 revolver at 20 yards."

Would that big gorilla on your back still be John Taffin? If it is it seems that you would have gotten over it by now.

[MBTcustom]

You guys should take your guns out and start shooting at 200+ yards. You will learn things about your capabilities that you never knew.
I have outshot a man who was using a Mini-14 with my model 19. 65 yards, ie. I hit the bowling pin more often than he did, and he had a scope on his gun.
I have cut grass stalks in two at 25 yards holding a 22 rifle at my hip....no sights.
I watched an old man call his shot and clip the cap off a mountain dew bottle that was spinning in the air. Oh and he used a bean flip with a 3/8" X3/8" diameter steel knockout slug.
I robin hooded an arrow at 50 yards once. Just stepped up to the 50 yard line and put two in exactly the same place.
I also put half a dozen arrows in a Levi garret snuff can (the little one) at 60 yards, with my PSE diamondback.
My father could ring a 6" plate at 100 yards every time with his MKV colt. No beaver tail, no slide work, no special trigger, just a tension barrel bushing and a white line (must have been platinum) 3/4 of the way down his front sight blade.
Its a different way of shooting, you use a different part of your brain. I always called it impact shooting, but I'm sure there are better names for it. Its hand/eye coordination at 200 yards, instead of 4" in front of your trigger finger.
I'm trying to describe something that I'm having trouble putting into words. All I know is that when that part of my brain starts clicking, and I have an accurate (fill in the blank) in my hand, it seems that there is almost nothing that is impossible.
600 yards seems like a real stretch, but if you could actually see your hits somehow, I would never presume to say that it is impossible for a man who knows his weapon.

[Marlin Junky]

I've watched video of Bob Munden hit a toy balloon (about a foot in diameter) at 600 yards with a 6-1/2" SW in 44Mag; however, he did need to shoot a few rounds in order to accomplish the task. He was also able to hit similar balloons with a 2" 38Spl at 200 yards... so I believe just about anything is possible if one really knows his gun. One the other hand, and in all reality, the ability to hit a random man-sized target at 600 yards with an open sighted handgun on the first shot is probably less likely than hitting 777 at Caesars Palace... no matter how experienced one is behind the trigger. I certainly wouldn't enjoy getting hit by a 230 grain bullet traveling at 600 fps especially if I was wearing my summer gear; so, I would imaging the "target" on the battlefield wouldn't stand around waiting for the shooter to compensate for turbulence and wind drift. It would also be kinda inconvenient lugging around a bench rest outfit in the mountains of Afghanistan so one can get off precise fire from their GI sidearm. So, even though the "stunt" might seem like an exercise in futility, it still looks like fun. After all, most bison killed durning the 1870's were shot within about 300 yards, so were's the real practicality of shooting black powder rifles of the 19th century at 1000? It's all about achieving a goal, no matter how ridiculous it may seem to some; i.e., how many of us really desires to jump out of a capsule from the top of the Stratosphere?

MJ

[44MAG#1]

I all my years shooting I've never seen a man save his worst targets to show and wave about when questioned on his shooting.
At least not that I can remember.
Maybe we ought too.

[subsonic]

You make a valid point 44MAG#1. But just for that reason I try to show good AND bad when I'm showing things.

[44MAG#1]

I have always tried to be honest about my ability.
I have made many strangely good shots in my shooting life. I have made many strangely bad shots too.
I have thought about keeping a record of my group sizes and loging them on graph paper with the target number and date on the bottom and the size of the group on the side in inches.
After maybe 15 or 20 entries go back and look to see what the trend is. I bet it would not be what i think it is.
I have been shooting a BFR in 45/70 at 100 yards offhand at least one five shot group sometimes two. I shot 2 this morn but this wasn't my day. Haven't even measured the targets.
Maybe I will measure them and log them on some graph paper.
Who knows
I know I am not as good as some on here.

[pdawg_shooter]

I have watched a fellow ring a 12" gong at 200yds 6 out of 7 shots with a m1911a1. Me, I dont think I could hit the ground at 600.

[44man]

I all my years shooting I've never seen a man save his worst targets to show and wave about when questioned on his shooting.
At least not that I can remember.
Maybe we ought too.
I have many bad ones myself but there is a reason. It is average I think about. Mostly it is me to blame for a bad group or a failure when loading. To know why lets you discount bad stuff and correct it.
MJ says it good. My long range stuff was always with a good spotter to walk me in.
Still, a good gun will hit very far. Yes even a 2" snubby.
I learned long ago to never discount any handgun.
I said what would a weaker gun do at long range and that was just momentum for a heavy target. A man hit at 600 yards with a .38 will be hurting. I never think of people shooting, not what I care about. I don't carry, have no license, no little guns but would not blink turning a creep to red mist. To shoot a creep at 600 yards would put you into jail. Why even consider it? A soldier uses a rifle.

[bigboredad]

I've witnessed Bob Munden shoot 100 yards with a 2" 38 special. He shot standing up with a two hand hold no rest, several hits in succession. The steel plate was about 8" wide. That was in the 1980's. I hear he is sick now.

Last i heard he was going in to surgery having some thing to do with his diabetes. I never even knew he had a problem and with him getting as big as he did I wonder if he knew? He has slimmed done a lot the last few years. I hope he is with for a lot longer. When he passes it will be a bad day at least for me

[mjs408]

Wasnt it jeff cooper who said he could hit a man sized target at 600 with a snub nose .38 by walking rounds into the target?

[44man]

Wasnt it jeff cooper who said he could hit a man sized target at 600 with a snub nose .38 by walking rounds into the target?
I believe him. That is how Elmer made his shot, he walked it in.
Now for the problem, if you or someone else can not see the boolit hits, you will never do it.
Rule number one is you MUST see hits to adjust.
Imagine shooting at something 600 yards away over a wheat field, tall grass or corn fields! [smilie=1:

[jhalcott]

I do KNOW that those Speer plastic bullets propelled by a PRIMER reach about 400+ fps out of a Super Black Hawk. This IS enough to kill a cat at 15 to 20 feet! They only weigh about 20 grains or so if memory serves me right! So how deep will a 230 hardball go in IF it hits you?

[ole 5 hole group]

Far enough unless you're wearing Kevlar.:-)

[Wolfer]

I believe it would exit a yearling deer hit behind the shoulder. Just my opinion which is worth less than the electricity it took to type it.

[44man]

Once I was lapping a mold for a .58 Minie' ball. I lapped, cast, over and over until I got a good bore fit. The the last ball got in too far and I had to push it all the way down and dribble a little powder into the nipple hole. I held the muzzle close to a 2x4 part of my bench and fired it. I hear a little poof, felt the ball go under my hand on the barrel and it buried itself full depth in the 2x4. That thing would go through a man at close range!
Darn sure a .45 at 600 yards is going faster. A .45 at 200 meters will not knock over a ram but that is momentum, not penetration. I would not want to be hit with one at 1000 yards. It will not do the same as one at 7 yards for sure. Neither will it kill deer way out there.

[MasS&W]

LAt those kinds of ranges, wind drift sometimes holds a far higher influence on accuracy. A consistant crosswind of any measurable velocity would produce drifts on the order of several feet, and cannot be assumed to be constant in the real world. I get decent results with light fast 357 loads out of a mdl 28 6", id imagine a 45 would be even more difficult.

[1bluehorse]

Pretty good shooten for sure considering a 165gr. 308 caliber starting at 2750fps will move 6-7ft at 600yds with a STEADY 10mph crosswind....most wind ain't STEADY.... do I think we're going to start seeing 600yd 45 acp handgun competitions anytime soon, probably not. (Most competitors have enough trouble at that range with a rifle) I knew a guy who could shoot yellow jackets off the fence posts on the other side of a 10 acre field ( thats not to hard, it's only about 220yd (shortside) from his front porch with his Hi Standard double nine 22..told me he was using a mark on his hat brim to set the height of his front sight...I should tell you guys about some of our fishing trips...:popcorn:

[44man]

The point to it all is FUN. Those that shoot 7 yards all the time miss out.
If you or a spotter can see boolit impact, it is easy to walk into a target no matter the wind or drop. Boolit weight helps too.
Sight your revolvers at 75 yards and keep velocity the same for all. The .44 with a 300 gr will drop 35" at 200 while a 420 .475 and 440 JRH will be around 18" with less wind movement too.
A .22 pistol sighted at 25 yards will drop 53" at 200 and that does not prevent you from hitting a steel chicken that far, and even down to a pop can.
If you have the place to shoot, go out and have some fun.
Some clubs have a rifle range and a pistol range but they won't allow your pistol on the rifle range. I found out why! You can make rifle shooters feel bad. :smile:

[1bluehorse]

Can't argue with you on any of that 44 Man...,for most of us (thank goodness)shooting is just for fun, for sure...

[44man]

Can't argue with you on any of that 44 Man...,for most of us (thank goodness)shooting is just for fun, for sure...
Now you have it! There are no strict accuracy limits or anything else. Just plain old FUN no matter the caliber or gun.
Take your .380 to 100 yards if you want---WHY? For fun and grins but you might get a surprise with more grins and laughing.
Darn it, enjoy yourself. Take your shorts down off your shoulders, that hurts! That is not for you but for all that think a handgun is just for up close.
True we don't hunt far and 100 yards is my limit for deer but that is just killing affect with revolvers but it is so much fun to shoot far.
I once wasted almost 100 .44 mags shooting at a big knot on a tree at some crazy distance because I could see the bullet base like a tracer in the sun. I know it was over 400 yards but it was so much fun I will never forget it.
Get some memories, life is so stinking short.

[beagle]

Guys, I can't even see 600 yards these days. I have done a fair amount of long range shooting and some with a M1911A1 that had been "tweaked" on the Army's pop up sillouhettes. After several magazines, I'd get the proper holdover and taking down targets up to 200 meters was fairly easy. Now, with tricked out sights and younger eyes and a good spotter, I might beleive 600 yard hits on a man sized target but the ammunition I think would be the limiting factor./beagle

[1Shirt]

Have seen some outstanding long range 1911 shooting. Watched Capt. Bill McMillen(think that is how he spelled it), at 200 with issue ll's, put them all in the black after 2-3 shots. I am no pistol shooter, so lay claim to nothing in that regard, and like Beagle, have trouble seeing 600 yds today unless it is on the horizon!
1Shirt!