Black Powder .22's

[MikeS]

Hi All.

Are there any ammo makers out there that still offer .22 long rifle cartridges loaded with real black powder? When my brother comes down for his annual visit around Christmas time I want to take my 11 year old nephew and teach him to shoot. They're really into the revolutionary war recreations, so he's been around when they fire off black powder blanks, so he's familiar with, and likes the smell & smoke of black powder. I have a Ruger Bearcat revolver (one of the originals, my father bought it back in 1964 or thereabouts) that I thought I would use, and if I can get 22's loaded with black powder it would really be cool. As it is, I think he'll enjoy the fact that the gun was Grandpa's as he was really close to my father before he died a few years ago.

I'm not interested in trying to pull the bullets off of factory 22's to replace the powder, only interested in finding loaded cartridges with black powder in them. Thanks!

[Chicken Thief]

No can do!

I read of a guy that tinkered with BP 22's and as i recall he got lousy grouping and only 3-4 shots before it became a smoothbore.

[MikeS]

I actually find that hard to believe. I mean 22's were loaded with black powder for years before smokeless came on the scene. I know they MADE them years ago, I'm wondering if anyone STILL makes them? I remember a while back there were 22 Long Rifle primed brass available, and a mould maker whipped up a mould for the 22LR heeled boolit, and folks were loading them with 4gr or 5gr of blackpowder, so I figured that some small ammo company is probably still loading them that way. I only need one maybe two boxes of 50, and they don't even need to be very accurate, they're for an 11 year old to shoot!

[Mooseman]

.22 Long and long rifle havent been loaded with BP since around 1930...Wouldnt know where you could get any except a collector or Old West Scrounger , maybe.

[Nobade]

It's not hard to make your own, the smallest Lyman 22 mould works fairly well. It's about 40gr, and if you leave the gas check off the gascheck shank works as a heel. Pull the bullet in a normal 22LR round, exchange the powder for black, insert boolit, and run it nose first into a .224" sizing die in the lubrisizer to crimp the mouth and smooth it out.

If you have a gun with a fairly long throated chamber they close easily and generally shoot quite well. (lubed with BP type lube of course) 4.0-4.5gr. FFFFg or Swiss Nul-B makes a good charge.

[cajun shooter]

Contact 44WCF of this forum. The one who lives in PA. He also goes by w30wcf. He has done alot of BP work with the 22's . If you do a search you will find some of his postings. I also think John Boy has posted on this same subject.

[Baja_Traveler]

You mean like this?
To my knowledge there are only 5-6 of us in the country routinely making and shooting BP .22's.

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/138993218.jpg

They are all I shoot in the silhouette matches, and I have shot several hundred at a time and still no fouling. My 39A is dead accurate with them.

http://www.pbase.com/baja_traveler/image/139055253.jpg

[MikeS]

Baja, how many grains of BP do you load them with?

[Lead pot]

There are a few of us that load and shoot black powder .22 rimfire cartridges.
A short while ago there were primed .22 rimfire cases available but I made the mistake listing the web site before I ordered some myself:-D and they were gone when I picked up the phone.
I still had a coffee can full of primed cases from back in the 80's but they are going fast.
Below is a group I shot using the .22 lowall at 50 yards compared to the Wolf match ammo and the .22 blk powder rounds wont take a back seat. I shot three 5 round groups one wiping between shots for the first 5 shots and they where about 1 1/2" the second 5 shot not wiping were the size of the 1 1/2" rings you see in the photo and the third 5 shots you see where shot after ten shots with out fouling control.
No lead found in the barrel after shooting this shooting session.



http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1478.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_1478.jpg)

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1482-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_1482-1.jpg)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_1492-1.jpg

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_1492.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/?action=view&current=IMG_1492.jpg)

[Baja_Traveler]

A .22LR case pretty much tops out at 4.5 grains of swiss 4f. I have a powder measure setup to drop that amount, then it is slightly compressed by the heel of the boolit. I use a positive-stop arbor press and a Paco Accurizr tool with a custom seating head to assemble them.
They go together pretty quick, but as lead pot said - the primed cases are no longer available to us. Luckily I got one of the few remaining 5000 round boxes before the supply dried up.
I figure I'm good for 4 years worth of silhouette matches, then I'll have to rig up a jig to pull walmart bulk ammo for the primed brass.
One of these days I need to shoot a target off the bench to see what they really are capable of, the target I shot to test was done off hand like a real silhouette match. I make my rounds .225 so they are tight in the bore of the 39A. The microgroove rifling really likes the over size, so it shoots my BP rounds more accurately than the super expensive match ammo.

[JeffinNZ]

BAJA - glad you posted. I was trying to remember your threads. I wish I could get primed cases here to play with. I local shooter, many years ago, scored a case of .22LR projectiles after the CAC factory closed. He used to drop a GC on them and send them down range ex Hornet.

[Nobade]

I've been wondering how many primed cases it would take to get CCI or Federal to sell a batch of them to folks like us who want to do this. Has anybody asked yet?

[Baja_Traveler]

Someone made that inquiry to the hunting shack (the source of the primed cases before they sold out). The reply was that Armscor was demanding a minimum order of something like 500 boxes of 5000. Theres no way they were going to do that as it would take decades to sell an inventory that large.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[Nobade]

Heck, I could do 1% of that. Now we just need to find 99 other people in the US to do it. That may be kind of hard. Guess I'll just keep tearing apart already loaded ammo.

Hey, another thought - anybody you know of built a rifle with a faster twist barrel for shooting heavier boolits? I have been thinking a 22CF barrel with 1:9 twist or so could be chambered with a 22CF throating reamer to whatever length the cartridge needed to be able to chamber. That should, in theory, work a lot better at long range than commonly available 22LR setups.

Our club shoots 200M benchrest matches with 22LR at 1/5 scale silhouettes. It's kind of fun but the ammo is way too unpredictable. Lots of vertical in most of it at that range. I suspect doing a rifle this way would be a distinct advantage.

[John Boy]

Are there any ammo makers out there that still offer .22 long rifle cartridges loaded with real black powder?
NO ...


I read of a guy that tinkered with BP 22's and as i recall he got lousy grouping and only 3-4 shots before it became a smoothbore.
Chicken, I don't know where you got that information or the person who said it ... but I shot with w30wcf today in a small bore lever action silhouette match and he ran 45 rounds of 22LR BP reloads through his Marlin and there was ZERO fouling out with no patching. Components: Mos custom UMC 45gr bullet - SPG lube - 4.5gr Swiss Null B

And the night before the match at the club's indoor pistol range, I shot 4 groups with 10 shots each of various BP powder charges/powder types with w30wcf spotting and with shot 9 & 10 of the 4th group ... the group opened up. PS - I got the target too
The Swiss Null B was the smallest group

[John Boy]

I've been wondering how many primed cases it would take to get CCI or Federal to sell a batch of them to folks like us who want to do this. Has anybody asked yet?
Yes - I've asked at least a half dozen ammo vendors for primed empty cases. All said no - legal liability because some 'expert' reloader might charge a case incorrectly. I even called ArmsCor who was the vendor for the cases we bought from the Hunting Shack. ArmsCor said Yes they would sell the primed empty cases. The order would have to be 500,000!

[.22-10-45]

Those b.p. .22 ctgs. sure look nice! Here's a thought..Wonder if anyone would make a percussion Sharps in .22? Now a paper-cased .22 would look pretty cool! Or..on a more practicle note.. a Ballard with the percussion nipple in block..only with a .22 barrel..just drill tiny hole in fired case and your in business!

[Nobade]

Those b.p. .22 ctgs. sure look nice! Here's a thought..Wonder if anyone would make a percussion Sharps in .22? Now a paper-cased .22 would look pretty cool! Or..on a more practicle note.. a Ballard with the percussion nipple in block..only with a .22 barrel..just drill tiny hole in fired case and your in business!

I have been contemplating exactly that. As soon as I find an appropriate rifle at a price low enough to afford I am planning on building one. Thinking of using a centerfire 22 barrel and chambering it for 22 magnum, so I can use inside lubricated bullets. There seems to be an endless supply of 22 magnum cases on the ground at our range, and a jig with a very small drill bit would make it easy to drill a hole in the head. A Stevens favorite, #4 rolling block, or other rifle like that with a separate breech block and hammer should work. If you do it right it should be possible to re-use the hammer and just have to make a new breech block.

[starmac]

Dan at bullshop has a cooper centerfire 22, I think that is what it is called.
He also has a reworked ruger single six for the same cartridge, real neat little sixgun.

That might be a fun option to use black in.

[.22-10-45]

Back in the early 70's, I had an old bolt actioned .22 Marlin..Mod. 81 I think. Forward part of bolt held by pin. I was working as lab assistant in High School metal shop..over Christmas vacation I was allowed to do light maintanence work..I snuck that barreled action in there in my pant leg! Turned up new bolt front from drill rod, fitted headspace & converted to a Needle gun. firing pin was made from #54 drill blank & hole in case head drilled with same.
Primers were strike anywhere match heads sitting on top of caseful of Unique..and in contact with bottom of heeled 40 gr. lead bullet..from the mould I made at school.
It worked most of the time..except in really cold weather..then you would get hang fires!
No leakage at breech that I noticed. Man, even back then I would have been in trouble if caught with that gun in school..Now days..Ouch!

[starmac]

I sawed off a couple of shotguns in shop class in the middle 70's. It was no problem, but then I stepped out the back door of the shop class and fired it to check out what kind of pattern it had when I finished the first one. lol They did make me put it in my locker then. lol

[Surculus]

I actually find that hard to believe. I mean 22's were loaded with black powder for years before smokeless came on the scene. I know they MADE them years ago, I'm wondering if anyone STILL makes them?

As someone else posted, BP loaded 22s completely disappeared during the Depression. The reason they'd held on for so long [don't forget, smokeless loads for civvy centerfire cartridges started coming out in the 1890s, so 22rf BP loads had held on for 40 years] was partly economics [they were cheaper to make than smokeless 22rf loadings at that time] and partly because the BP loads in a fresh barrel were more accurate than smokeless 22s. just since the turn of the millennium[/i], & then think back to how new the chemical industry as a whole still was back then...]

The reason they disappeared is that in those days, even with rigorous and dedicated cleaning of the rifle after every day of shooting, you could expect to replace the barrel on a 22rf every couple of years if you wanted to maintain decent accuracy! [Historical fact. Just read some of the old books on small bore marksmanship, etc. from that time, as I have done. No stainless steel back then either; heck, stainless wasn't even discovered until someone noticed that some derelict German cannons left over from the Great War weren't rusting at the same rate as their neighboring field guns. It was a loooong time after that before stainless started showing up in centerfire rifle barrels, & even longer b4 it started showing up in 22rf offerings...]

During the Great Depression, nobody had the money to be replacing their rifle barrels any more...

Long before the BP loads completely disappeared, they'd been superseded by compound loads like Lesmoke, which added some smokeless to the BP as it maintained a higher temp of the powder gases as the bullet went up the barrel, leading to slightly higher mV and more importantly in such a small bore, less fouling [as more of the particulates were blown out the muzzle as the bullet leapt into exterior ballistics mode.] But even those compound loads were pretty much tossed out when the economies of scale of smokeless powder production brought about by the making of ammunition for the Great War [which would have left a lot of machinery otherwise idle during the '20s] meant that even the 22rf could now be loaded equally cheaply w/ smokeless powder as BP, and barrel life went from 3-5 years of regular shooting if you weren't especially critical of abysmal accuracy [& don't forget, everyone shot a lot more back then, as finances permitted, since we as a nation spent a greater amount of time outdoors as the only form of entertainment available to the majority of the population] to, well, virtually a lifetime of relatively unchanging accuracy. Heck, nowadays I've heard people tell me they [b]never clean their 22rf rifles! :shock:

22rf rifles went from being merely cheap & cheerful in comparison to their larger-caliber brethren to being MASSIVELY cheaper to own & feed: kinda like why cars took over from horse-powered transport.

I've been wanting to experiment w/ some BP & Lesmoke-type loadings one of these days, just to see what it was like when my grandfather was a kid. This thread has made that casual thought solidify into a definite ambition. Thanks!:drinks:

[softpoint]

Heck, I could do 1% of that. Now we just need to find 99 other people in the US to do it. That may be kind of hard. Guess I'll just keep tearing apart already loaded ammo.

Hey, another thought - anybody you know of built a rifle with a faster twist barrel for shooting heavier boolits? I have been thinking a 22CF barrel with 1:9 twist or so could be chambered with a 22CF throating reamer to whatever length the cartridge needed to be able to chamber. That should, in theory, work a lot better at long range than commonly available 22LR setups.

Our club shoots 200M benchrest matches with 22LR at 1/5 scale silhouettes. It's kind of fun but the ammo is way too unpredictable. Lots of vertical in most of it at that range. I suspect doing a rifle this way would be a distinct advantage.
I've read about some barrels for Ruger 22's with a faster twist for shooting the Aquila 60 grain rimfire load. Don't remember who, maybe Green Mountain. Might have to re-do the breech end, unless you are shooting a Ruger 77/22?

[Nobade]

I've read about some barrels for Ruger 22's with a faster twist for shooting the Aquila 60 grain rimfire load. Don't remember who, maybe Green Mountain. Might have to re-do the breech end, unless you are shooting a Ruger 77/22?

I have several of the 1:7 twist blanks Green Mountain was selling for $30 a while back, waiting to get fitted to something. That ought to stabilize anything I care to fire through it. There are a couple Remington 580s in the corner gathering dust, looks like a good match-up to me if I ever get the time to make it happen.

[w30wcf]

Surculus,
Thank you for the history lesson :) I do know that semi smokeless .22's first became available in the late 1890's (Peters ctgs using King's Semi Smokeless) and later Lesmok entered the scene. Semi smokeless 22's were manufactured up into the late 1930's-early 1940's. I have shot some Peters semi-smokeless (approx 1920's vintage) and they averaged 1056 f.p.s which is pretty close to the UMC 22 b.p. ammunition profiled in the thread below. Perhaps, they could have lost some "zip" due to their age.

Stepping Back In Time - 22 LR Black Powder adventure
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/black-powder/69505-22-lr-black-powder-adventure.html

w30wcf

[johnson1942]

in 1954 i was helping my uncle tear out a pantry wall to make it bigger. behind the wall we found a very old in perfect shape full box of .22 longs. he had a high quality winchester auto and we loaded it with those bullets. we went out to shoot gophers with them. shot a few gophers and a skunk with them and they cycled perfectly. stunk to high heaven. also smoked to, we had never seen a box like that so they had to be blackpowder.again they worked just fine. in retrospect it probably didnt corrode the barrel because it was only one box followed by many boxes of modern ammo. have fun