New gun! for me!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well I was at one of my local gun shops last friday and I saw somehting for sale on the used rack that I had had in the back of my mind for some time.

It is a Kel-Tec SU 16CA.

This gun is a .223 cal Semi auto rifle made largely of Polymer. It folds in half, it has a place for 2 10 rnd mags in the buttstock, and uses AR style magazines.

The one I got was highly accessorized and I got a screamin' deal. I have to wait till next week to pick it up.

It has the optional M4 style Fore-end, an aftermarket Muzzle Brake, and a red dot sight on it.

It needs a sling and a different scope on it.

These things are a pretty serious car gun or pack gun. It weighs 4.7 lbs..

Been aware of the gun for some time as my Bro in Law has one, however I have never shot his. We are doing a 3 gun IDPA event this weekend and I will get to shoot his and see what it is like. [smilie=w:

This gun is not affected by any CA BS! which is the main reason I bought it. I can use any AR mag in it which gives me easy to obtain firepower up to 100 rnds on board (even though I'd probably never use a Beta mag on it.) But common AR 30 rnders are a good thing.

In a SHTF situation this would be a good choice as there would be AR mags and ammo around, and the gun will pack or carry easily.

The other gun I am hot for right now is a Kel-Tec SUB 2000 in .40 S&W with the Glock mags. This would be the companion gun to my Glock 35 using the same mags and ammo.

If anyone has one they want to sell just PM me. Must be a .40 Glock version.

Randy

[tacklebury]

I've looked at those a couple times also. :) Look forward to hearing how it shoots for you. ;)

[Jailer]

I'd like a sub2000 in 45 that takes Glock mags but Kel Tec says they have no plans to make one. :( Oh how I long for a quality 45 ACP carbine that takes Glock mags.

I shot a IDPA style 2 gun match a couple weeks ago (rifle/handgun) and it was a blast. A local group is looking to consolidate a few other satellite local organizations and form a Michigan 2 gun group. I hope it takes off because it was a lot of fun. Of course taking second place in the Law Enforcemnet division in my first time in a shoot such as this probably had a little to do with that. :)

Post back with a range report, I'm curios to see how this thing runs.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jailer: Check out Mech Tech http://mechtechsys.com/ I just found out about them today. They make uppers that convert just about any Glock to a Carbine. including the Glock 21 in .45ACP. They also make 1911 versions up to .460 Rowland.

They start at $349 and look to be pretty well made. You remove the slide/ barrel from your pistol and and it plugs into the upper. NO mod to your pistol and you can go back and forth easily. Might work for you?

The biggest thing in favor of the Sub2K is that it weighs 4 lbs and folds in half. As a car gun I don't think it can be beat,,,,Until they make a .45.

I am definately hot for a Sub2K. I have a G35 so it would fit well with that system.

When I go shoot anything I have a primary bag I take with me. It has my G35 , holster mags ammo tools, earmuffs, glasses, everything I need to shoot rifles pistols or shotguns.

If I grab only that bag when going out the door, I am well armed. If I grabbed the Sub2K too then I would be "really" well armed.

I totally agree about the .45 ACP version, It would be my first choice as well. I'll beat them up about it at the SHOT Show in a few months.



I get my SU16 on Tuesday and I am pretty pumped about that little aquisition. Pretty sure that gun is going to replace my Mini 14.

I just got my Mini out to check it out for the shoot tomorrow, all my mags were covered in surface rust and it took a half an hour to steel wool them clean. Very annoying as they rust instantly ! and also they are covered just about anytime I leave the alone for a while. Guess I'm going to have to boil them in oil or something drastic.

Plastic doesn't rust!

Randy

[Jailer]

I've seen those Mech Tech uppers before. I'd like to hear from someone who has actually used one before I dropped my coin on one. The one thing that does turn me away a bit is I'd not want to switch back and forth between uppers, I'd rather have a dedicated 45 carbine.

Lone Wolf is making a Glock mag compatible AR lowers and pistol caliber uppers. But again none in 45 ACP and according to an email I got this week they have no plans for one.

Just Right Carbines makes a 45 AR styled carbine but functioning and reliability has been spotty at best with them. And I think they are just plain butt ugly.

Kel Tec could probably come up with a sub2K in 45 ACP but it would be 5 or 6 years before you might actually see one in the wild. I love some of the firearms they've come up with, I just wish they had the manufacturing capacity to meet some of the demand. They have also responded to emails stating that they have no plans to offer one in 45 ACP.

What gives with all these manufacturers with no love for the 45 carbine?

[waksupi]

45nut has a couple of them. I shot one, seemed to function fine. These are made local here.

[alrighty]

I would like to hear your thoughts after you have had it a while.I bought a sub2000 in 9mm that uses the S&W mags.I got it in a package deal with a stag arms ar15 for a good price.I was not impressed by the kel tec at first , I have a problem with plastic sights on anything.That being said it has proven to be decent in accuracy and I haven't managed to tear anything up yet.When folded it packs neatly in the front rack storage of my polaris 800 sportsman.The KelTec I am most interested in trying is their shotgun , now that could come in very handy.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Everybody is interested in the shotgun! I have heard of no one who has actually seen one.

I get my SU16 tomorrow, and will post pics .

Already have an order to KT for some accessories, IE: sling, extra mags, rear sight, case etc.

I was informed today the the SUB2K has to be sent to a class 7 FFl here in CA so they can install a bullet button on it. If he can find a SUB2K in the first place I will send my guy the BB and he can install it with one screw and ship it to my normal FFL anyway.

I think the SUB2K is a long way off so I will concentrate on the first gun.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Got it! love it!

Spent an hour scraping some of the mold flash off some of the parts, and detailing the magazines after I got home yesterday.

As with most generic guns they can all benefit from a good deburring! It is easy with plastic as all you do is scrape the flash off the edges with an Xacto knife.

I do this first thing with all my Glocks and it makes them feel much nicer in you hand, the Kel-Tec is more of the same.

At 4.7 lbs this gun handles nice. Probably going to remove the huge red dot and go with iron sights and a tritium front sight, or add a combo light and laser, or some combination of the above. The idea is to keep the gun light.

The only thing about this gun is that the safety is put it backwards. The previous owner must have been a lefty.

Have to call KT today and order some piece parts and a couple of extra magazines. I will get the lowdown on changing the safety. I'll put a pic up soon as I get the camera down to the shop.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Took the buttstock apart and reversed the safety button so it functions for a right hander again. Took about 45 minutes to complete the job, with the last 35 minutes being used up trying to get the left end of the hammer spring back into the stock in the right place. Finally beat it.

Got a bunch of stuff coming for this and some other guns including a cheap 3-9X scope, a small red dot sight, some mounts and rails, slings etc..

Going to play with the configuration of this gun until I get a usable set up. If I can get the scope mounts to repeat when removed, I will have several variations usable for the platform.

I like this gun because it is exempt from CA BS, but beyond that it is light, it folds in half, it uses alot of AR accessories, and with 2 loaded 10 round mags in stored in the buttstock, if I can get to it, I am good to go in a SHTF situation.

More on this gun as it takes shape.

Randy

[tacklebury]

Nice. 8) Let us know how things go accuracy wise and feeding. ;)

[W.R.Buchanan]

I got some of my stuff in from CTD and Kel-Tec and mounted it.

I got a variety of mounts, a flashlight, small red dot sight etc

Trying to figure out what works best with this gun.

After mounting the flash light on the fore end rail I knew it was a keeper. With it, the iron sights are totally usable at night. It is super easy to turn on and off with your thumb and fore finger which is normally placed right behind it on the foreend.

With the red dot mounted the irons are no longer usable, however with the red dot mounted at a 45* at the rear of the receiver you can use the irons, and rotate the gun and use the reddot, however the bolt is harder to manipulate with this sight in the way, so I'm thinkin' on top in the way is fine.

The gun folds completely with the mags out of the buttstock and nearly all the way with the mags in.

I mounted my 1-4x scope into the UTG one piece mount and found out that the scope interferrs with the rear sight, so you have to remove it to use the scope.

Also the gun starts feeling clunky with the scope attached and it will be more of the same and probably worse with the 3-9x scope that is coming even though it only weighs 13.1 oz.

As it sits with the flash light and the mini red dot the gun weighs 5lb 9oz. It swings nicely and with the small red dot both eyes open are easy and it is super easy to track a moving target with this setup.

I could almost shoot skeet with it.

I have to hand it to UTG as the scopes and mountings that they are making are excellent quality and value. The 2 scopes I am using on this gun were about $80 each the little red dot was $60 and the flaslight was $50. The UTG one piece mount was $22.

Most of you know I own a machine shop, I have a lot of experience with CNC machines, but I could not make that scope mount for anything close to $22 in fact $122 would be iffy. All of the similar mounts at Brownells were over $100 and many were over $200, and I'm sorry but they are NOT that much better, if at all.

It doesn't matter where the machine making your parts is located, it's what comes out of that machine that matters. I have < $300 in two scopes with illuminated reticles, a red dot, a flashlite, several mountings etc. If I had gotten all US made stuff it would have been pushing $2K. I'm not saying the stuff I got was better or even as good, however so far everything has performed well and for my usage it serves its purpose. It is good value for me.

As a comparison EoTech is making a polymer foreend with a flash lite in it for Mossberg Shot guns. It is $250. My Mossberg 500 cost $212! Since there is no justification for their pricing is makes me wonder if they are actually that good or are they just gouging the govt, and living off their name. I have seen many Eotech sights that have failed in shooting classes so I personally don't think they are worth the money. I could buy 10 of those little red dot sights for the cost of one EoTech, which do you think would last longer the 10 or the one? If I found out that EoTech was having their parts made in China I would really come down on them. I've seen too many big name companies outsourcing to China and then putting their name on product and duping people into thinking they are buying American, and paying a premium too boot.

So far that 1-4 scope has been thru two Front Sight Rifle classes and survived 1000+ rounds thru my Mini 14, it hasn't shifted zero once. So until I see otherwise I'm going to relate my findings in a positive light.

So far, I am liking the gun best in the light and fast set up mode as pictureed below. Depending on whether or not I can get the scope mounts to repeat will govern how much modularity I have in hand. If the mounts do repeat then I will be able to swap optics to cover anything from in my face to 400 yards, quickly and easily.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I finished the set up of the gun Sunday. I made sling attachements and hooked up a 1.5" sling. Also made a new takedown pin with a ring in it soi it doesn't get lost.

Got my 3-9x scope in but I don't know if I will use it on this gun. I like the gun best with just the little red dot on it.

It is light and fast and weighs <6 lbs, with the 1.5" sling it carries really nice as well and the bigger sling spreads the weight of the rifle out over a larger area.

Adding weight for no real gain in usefulness is pointless. Plus you always want to tool up with what you are going to use most.

If the scope mounts will repeat then I can carry the scope with me and use as needed.

Randy

[Jailer]

Thanks for the update.

I'm fighting the same reasoning on the scope with my 300 blk AR. I really like the versatility of a small light red dot but a scope sure would be handy for hunting for a longer shot. My eyes just aren't what they used to be.

[webradbury]

I like these rifles. I've heard theyre tough as nails too? I'm curious how dirty it gets from firing. My AR gets filthy to the point I'm thinking about getting rid of it for something else tactical. I really like Benelli's MR1 rifle.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Webradbury: it doesn't get dirty. It has AR style lockup at the breach, ran by an AK style piston, there is even a dustcover over the rear of the bolt to prevent intrusion of foriegn matter. No powder residue gets near the action.

They also have chrome lined bores and chambers. I shot about 100 rounds of various ammo thru it yesterday, no problems at all. Used Kel-Tec amgs and some new 20 rnd Magpul P mags I got at the gun show Saturday. fed everything in any order.

Absolute joy to shoot. Accurate enough for intended purposes. About 3MOA with iron sights that I can't focus on. Will mount a scope soon to see what it will do.

Ran one patch thru the bore,,,clean.

Love this gun.

Jailer: your sight rails on an AR will repeat so you have the option of having a scope zeroed and ready to go, But I was hitting a 24" gong at 300 yds with a red dot yesterday. It is good enough for hunting too. My polymer rail has yet to convince me it will repeat.

My little Chinese Red dot didn't make the cut and got sent back along with the 3-9X scope which killed it's battery the first night.

I ordered a Bushnell TRS25 today and will go with it. Believe me you could hit a man sized target at 300 yds easily with the red dot sight. And whats more you can get on him in about 1 second. It is a very fast sighting system, and super easy to warm up to.

The one I had weighed 2 oz, the one replacing it is 3oz. Essentially they add nothing to the weight of the gun. My gun will be an even 6lbs.

Incidentially Kel-Tec is now making a 300Blk version of the SU16 like mine. Identical except for the hole in the barrel. It could get you away from the AR way of doing things, and yet all your mags and many accessories would still work.

Randy

[Jailer]

For the time being I'm trying both on my 300 blk. It has a bit of "mall ninja" look to it but I'll decide after deer season if I'm going to keep it like this or just go with one optic.

Scope is zeroed at 100 yards and the red dot at 50.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/300blk.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Optics1.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b180/Jailer/Optics3.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Jailer: What kind of scope and mount is that?

I like the one piece mount.

Here's what mine looks like with the Bushnell red dot and sling.

With the sight, flashlite, sling and two loaded 10 round mags in the buttstock the gun weighs 6lb 8oz.

Randy

[Jailer]

GG&G FLT scope mount. Seems to be a decent piece so far. Not as nice as the LaRue one piece that I have on a couple of other guns but the LaRue is a bit pricey. The red dot sits on a Weaver off set mount.

http://www.gggaz.com/flt-scope-mount.html

A cheaper alternative is the Nikon M223 mount but I didn't want the 20 MOA slope for the 300blk and the side clamps had me a little worried.

http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-M-223-743-Mount-Slope/dp/B003G5SO7C

[W.R.Buchanan]

I'm still looking at scope mounts but I'm pretty sure about the Leupold 3x9VXRMil/Mil. It is $600 but I can use it on several guns so it will pay for itself eventually.

I can use it for accuracy testing on this gun, but it will be primarily for the RGS 77.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's some more senic pictures of the gun.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

This gun was sighted in today at 50/200 yards using my new standard .223 reload (55gr bullet and 25.gr of BLC2). This happened pretty quickly with only 4 shots. I will refine this zero on paper when the opportunity arises, but for now it is usable.

The little Bushnell TRS 25 Red Dot sight was definately the way to go on this gun.. It keeps the gun light and fast, 6.5lbs loaded, and provides better than minute of pie plate accuracy out to 300 yards.

I was having no problem hitting a coffee can off hand at 50 yards with nearly every shot, and the amount I was missing by was not outside a man sized target, and off the bench at 200 yards as well.

Point being, if needed this gun would be a superb defensive weapon. The fact it folds in half and can be kept close to you means you might actually get to use it if needed. The same could not be said about the majority of firearms in my possession, mainly because they would probably be at home in the safe instead of with me in the car where I am at alot of the time.

This gun is a definate winner and I hope some others here get the opportunity to find out first hand. These guns are not common on dealers shelves so finding them is more of a chance meeting than something you see everyday. They are out there so just keep your eyes peeled maybe you'll get lucky like I did.

Randy

[migtek02]

Thanks for sharing your insight, I'll be looking to add this to my AR collection sinc mags and sights will swap.*

Migtek02

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK after a couple of months, I finally got to shoot my Kel-Tec SU16CA in a three gun match.

First off,,, I won!

Second, the gun functioned perfectly, and is ideally suited for this competition. Light, handles fast, gets on target fast, easy to manipulate, quick to load and unload. Absolute jopy to shoot!

All guns limited to 10 shots per magazine, and 24 shots total for the rifle string IE:2 mag changes.

The rifle string consisted of 3 paper targets at 15 yds from the start box. 2 shots on each one, and then gun on safe and advance 15 yds to a hay bale.

Engage a dueling tree at 15 yds and shift all six plates to the other side. Reload at plate 4, finish the tree, then engage three poppers at 25 yds, 2 shots each. Reload and two shots on two silhouettes at 40 yards and then two shots on one shihouette at 150 yds.

Clear gun and advance to pistol targets for 12 shots and out.

I did this in 110 seconds flat, and had to reload and clear the rifle and extra time as I failed to engage the 150 yd target. This cost me an additional 10-15 seconds. However it could have been worse simply because the KT is so easy to clear and lock the bolt open it saved me a bunch of time. AR guys were taking much longer to clear and change mags.

I had one miss on the rifle targets and one miss on the pistol targets but there is no penality for misses other than extra time spent, IE; you must hit every target 2 times. Period.

I did have one advantage over other guys there as I had attended several rifle classes at Front Sight and my gun handling was superior to others there. Yes it made a big difference as the second place guy who is 30 years younger than me was 10 seconds slower than me, and others were into the low 3 minutes. This was all because of poor gun handling. (mine wasn't exceptional by any means, it was just better than theirs, IE I had some idea of what I was doing.) The other contributing factor was guys "studying the sights." By aiming instead of shooting you lose time, and this is a game where every second counts,,, Against you! You need to break the shot as soon as the dot is on the target,,, Period! You can't spend time thinking about your sight picture or other wastes, it must break down to "Dot on the target, trigger pulled" or pulled twice if a double tap is required.

Same thing with the pistol or shotgun. With the pistol when firing two shots as fast as possible, the shots always end up right next to each other. If you "aim" the second shot, it will be somewhere else. It's "bangbang",,, not "bang,,, bang."

I attribute this victory to two things. The gun is an absolute joy to shoot, and the red dot sight is absolutely fastest way to aquire a target there is. I might add the silhouettes turned out to be 10x12" which is considerably smaller than we all thought they were. 1 square foot target at 150 yds with the red dot was no problem at all.

Consider this when setting up your levergun for hunting in the trees.

I ripped off the first 6 shots and was on my way to the hay bale in less than 4 seconds from the low ready, the first 4 shots on the dueling tree were another 2-3 seconds.

As soon as the dot is on the target you let fly, no need to study the sights, just cover and break the shot. This even held true on the 150 yard shots after I re-loaded the gun after clearing it pre-maturely. It took longer to load and re-clear the gun than it took to make the two shots on the target. Literally two seconds for the two shots at @150 yds with a red dot. Nothing to it!

I have to tell you, this was some kind of intense fun!

Will do it again next month fosho!

Randy

[seagiant]

Hi Randy,
Thanks for sharing! That rifle could be another way to go besides an out right AR-15! Probably a little more economical in the present madness going on! Feels good when you beat the young guys don"t it! I had to take a small arms class for a Gov. OP Vessel and the class was given by an ex ARMY Colonel. He said the hi scorer would win a silver walkin liberty half dollar just to make the 3 day class interesting. You had to be proficent with the M-14 rifle, the M-9 (Beretta 92) pistol and a Mossberg 500 combat shot gun!

I was top scorer and the only trouble I had was a young 27 year old with sharp eyes! What put me over the top was surprisingly the combat shotgun. I guess shooting trap and skeet are good for something after all!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Greg: the shotgun sports really make you shoot stationary targets much faster.

I shot all of the shotgun targets from the start box simply because they were spaced out at about 25 yards. No reason to run up to them and collapse the pattern to 4" when you've got a nice 36" pattern at 25 yds with an open bore Mossberg 500. Just because it has rifle sights doesn't mean you have to aim and study the sights, it's still a shotgun! On target, pull trigger! just like shooting skeet.

I can't wait to shoot the match with my Sub 2000. That gun will really go fast!

Randy

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Randy,

Congrats on your new rifle. Several years ago, I took a hard look at the Keltec SU 16's and wanted to buy one - the CA version you have. Why? Because the barrel on it's the heaviest version Keltec offers and is more accurate than the other versions. I was never able to locate a CA version here in Georgia or find some where to order it from.

I thought it would be an ideal truck gun, especially if you put it in a nondescript bag with a 4 30-rd mag pouch carried by sling and a Camel bak full of water and you're set for basic "hurricane/riots/natural disaster/SHTF scenarios. A perfect rifle for those kind of situations.

I don't know if this is still true or not, but at the time I was looking for one, Keltec had some issues with bolts cracking, etc. So since you've familiarized yourself with the rifle, I'd try not to put tons of rounds through it until you confirm this issue is still present in newer rifles or not.

In any case, know I'm sincerely envious of your purchase. It's an excellent truck gun/emergency rifle.

Dave

[W.R.Buchanan]

I haven't heard of the bolts cracking but I have heard of the receivers cracking. KT would fix it in any event.

The "truck gun" idea is where I got into the game with this one. However with me it is,,, "Trunk Gun."

The thing is a joy to shoot.

Randy

[garym1a2]

If you like Keltec stuff try their shotgun, two tubes of 7, pump action and easy to reload. Some of the Ketec factory boys run them in the
local 3-gun matches and they can clear poppers rather fast. Their Su-16 are setup as SBR's with very short barrels and comps, they are too loud for my taste.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If Keltec's QC and material usage was as innovative as their quite brilliant designs, they'd be impossible to stop.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mine has a compensator on the front and it is loud for bystanders. This is not a problem as they should have ear protection on anyway. :mrgreen:

If you look at the gun closely the metal parts are all in charge of the operation, the plastic parts(glass filled polymer actually like Glocks) only holds the whole mess together, there are no plastic parts in wear areas.

An example is the bolt where the gas tube is the main slideway for the bolt and the receiver just kind of keeps it lined up with the barrel. The bolt carrier does contact the two sides of the receiver however there is no stress on it. The main guidance for the bolt carrier is the gas tube. just like an AK.

It is an interesting design and with a pressure cast aluminum receiver it would be just as much a Battle Rifle as an AR. In fact there is some talk that KT is looking for some Military Contracts with the SU16. It will be interesting to see what the SU16-M looks like.

One other point. These guns require very little or no 'break in period." I normally take a new gun apart and "deburr" everything. this one was already done! I was impressed, because I had NEVER seen any gun with the internal parts deburred!

when I got my Sub2000 I took it apart to deburr it but it was more of the same. All of the internal parts had all the sharp edges knocked off by tumbling. there was noting to deburr.

On the outside of the guns there is some mould flash you can remove with an Exacto knife but really this is minimal. I do more work on the outside of a Glock than one of these rifles.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

They are neat looking outfit WR! I like the way the trigger guard folds into the mag well! very clever.

[W.R.Buchanan]

FFOD: One of these guns would be a real good piece of kit for the outback.. The 2ea 10 rnd magazines stored in the buttstock is a feature that would come in handy for people trapesing around the outback.

My gun weighs just 6 lb 8 oz. with two loaded mags in the stock and the Red Dot sight. It's pretty light for that much firepower, and carries very well. With a 10 rounder in the gun and 2 in the stock you a have 30 rounds on board which would go along way in a survival situation.

The folding feature makes it easy to carry in a backpack or to keep in the Land Cruiser full time.

Would the gun be legal in AUS?

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

Would the gun be legal in AUS?

Unfortunately, no. If you are employed. either paid or volunteerily (is that a word, ?? HaHa), culling feral animals you can get a C' class license and use a semi auto.

The ARs are pretty much out as they are a nasty looking military style rifle, which is a no no. I occasionally hunt wild dogs, which are big nasty pig dogs gone wild and are prolific killer of stock and as they are not afraid of man, most having been domesticated earlier, they are becoming bloody dangerous.

I currently use a 308W Remington 7600 Police, but because of a torn rotator cuff injury to my left shoulder, sometimes have difficulty pumping the forend. One of these would be nice, but because of it's looks I'd be surprised if they appproved it.

I might have to go for whatever they call the current edition of the Remington based Woodmaster semi auto. I dearly would like an AR15 rifle, but I would have to marry the Prime Minister's daughter to swing that one, lol. ScheeooooooooooooT! What am I laughing about????

[W.R.Buchanan]

FFOD: hopefully the PM will see the error of his ways eventually and dump all that gun control BS. I know Canada is starting to rethink their idiotic laws, since they have seen no change in the crime #'s and a big change in the cost of maintaining a system that is doing nothing but costing money.

The way around all of this krap is to push the cost/ benefit ratio. It never works economicaly to try to enforce gun control. Just too little bang for the $.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

Our PM is a woman and I don't think she would be pro gun either. Before politics she was a trade union barrister (a lawyer who specialises in court appearances) and as a young woman was a noisy and committed communist(she stopped making noise about that when she realised that it would hamper her career I suppose). She hasn't been tested on any gun stuff since coming to power, but I wouldn't hold any hope of getting a break from her.

I think our registry may actually make money as they charge $AU30 for every ownership transaction (except to and from a dealer and dealer to dealer). I have a handful of stubs from transfers over the past years that the laws have been in effect that would choke a horse. There is a current move underway by shooters to get the registry scrapped as the cops now need to audit gun owners and their firearms so the database was downloaded to the police computer system. Some Police are incredibly incompetent and have left theri computers logged in while wandering off to lunch, etc and corrupt police have taken advantage of this and 'shared' information regarding guns and we have had several cases of home invasions with crooks knowing exactly what guns the gun owner and demanding the particular gun that they want (usually semi auto 9mms).

The registry has to go and the cops involved need to be strung up by the thumbs, but I don't hold much hope of either happening any time soon. There will probably be sme retired cop given a contract to investigate it, he will talk around it in circles to protect his mates and they will bring out some meaningless security upgrades which will do nothing but pass on expenses to gun owners and allow pollies to say that they had done something positive about it. Like the laws regarding ammo sales, we had a lot of criminals in Sydney brassing upeach other's homes and they make laws making it harder for honest shooters to buy ammo and dealers and gun shops are swamped with meaningless paperwork.

[W.R.Buchanan]

FFOD: sorry to hear all that, but that is exactly what they'd like to do here. actually worse.

Only problem is in AUS only about 7% of the people are gun owners. over here it's over 50% so they have a little more resistance.

Randy

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yep! WR, after getting their asses kicked out of America, they didn't make the same mistakes again.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes that was Geo Soros in action. Too bad he can't become a victim of some kind of violence.

Maybe SlingShot violence.:mrgreen:

Randy

[Wilkie]

Well I was at one of my local gun shops last friday and I saw somehting for sale on the used rack that I had had in the back of my mind for some time.

It is a Kel-Tec SU 16CA.

This gun is a .223 cal Semi auto rifle made largely of Polymer. It folds in half, it has a place for 2 10 rnd mags in the buttstock, and uses AR style magazines.

The one I got was highly accessorized and I got a screamin' deal. I have to wait till next week to pick it up.

It has the optional M4 style Fore-end, an aftermarket Muzzle Brake, and a red dot sight on it.

It needs a sling and a different scope on it.

These things are a pretty serious car gun or pack gun. It weighs 4.7 lbs..

Been aware of the gun for some time as my Bro in Law has one, however I have never shot his. We are doing a 3 gun IDPA event this weekend and I will get to shoot his and see what it is like. [smilie=w:

This gun is not affected by any CA BS! which is the main reason I bought it. I can use any AR mag in it which gives me easy to obtain firepower up to 100 rnds on board (even though I'd probably never use a Beta mag on it.) But common AR 30 rnders are a good thing.

In a SHTF situation this would be a good choice as there would be AR mags and ammo around, and the gun will pack or carry easily.

The other gun I am hot for right now is a Kel-Tec SUB 2000 in .40 S&W with the Glock mags. This would be the companion gun to my Glock 35 using the same mags and ammo.

If anyone has one they want to sell just PM me. Must be a .40 Glock version.

Randy
I have an SU 16C that I am shooting cast 55 grain bullets. It is a great gun. Light. Accurate. Reliable. I love the way the butt stock folds under making for a great back pack gun. I also have a Highpoint .45 carbine I shoot cast bullets out of. That dang gun is ugly but a hoot to shoot. I sure can do A LOT of shooting with cast bullets with these two guns.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys here's a real range report on my Kel-Tec SU16 CA in 5.56/.223Rem.

I just completed a 4 day Practical Rifle Course at Front Sight. Very few people knew what my gun was however the instructors were somewhat familiar with it and now more so. They were all enthusiastic about the gun.

I did have a few malfunctions, however every one occurred after I chamber checked the gun buy opening the bolt an inch or so and then, it not snapping back into battery. This always resulted in a type 3 malfunction IE; failure to extract and resulting in double feed. Clearing the gun consisted of locking the bolt back, removing the mag, racking the bolt until the offending round is removed and then reinserting the mag and racking again.

Note: I don't chamber check this way any more, I drop the mag and check the position of the top cartridge. This malfunction happened 4 times in 4 days. Once on the first mag on the first day, and three times on the last day when I was getting lazy. The gun needs cleaned after about 350 rounds fired.

The gun is an absolute joy to shoot and hitting the Front Sight target with the red dot is easy out to 100 yards offhand. From prone I was hitting the 200 yard target regularly, which is not easy to see or line up with the small Bushnell red dot, as it is pretty small at that distance and the dot pretty much covers the whole target. The gun is not a sniper weapon, but it is no slouch either. I did manage to hit a 400 yard steel target once out of 6 shots, with an ex Sniper Spotter guiding me.

Where it really stood out was in the walk thru M16 canyon shooting targets of opportunity. I posted the fastest time of the whole class! This was mainly due to me shooting offhand and not studying the sights. Dot on target, trigger press! Just like that. I had two misses on one target at 220 yards but hit on the third shot. 3 seconds total! Most everyone was going prone, but I had all three shots off by the time any of them even got on the ground.

Where the gun really showed it's utility was during the dead time when you were standing around waiting to shoot. Light weight was a real plus here. At Front Sight they have a very strict policy of your gun being on your shoulder and you not "muzzling" others. IE; the gun stays on your shoulder pointed up or down, and you have one hand on it at all times to maintain control of the weapon.

We had one guy who couldn't seem to abide by these rules and he was removed on day 3 and sent packing. IN a class with 57 people you can't have idiots who won't follow the simple rules. This guy was whacked anyway and turned to muzzle the whole class several times, but at Front Sight everyone who can pass a background check is welcome until they prove otherwise. He proved otherwise!

My gun however, only weighs 6 lbs unloaded, and with the 1.5"wide sling it was light and very easy to keep slung and pointed in the right direction. Not fatiguing in any way. Definately not like the 13lb M1A National Match the young man next to me shot. Big boy he was. The vast majority of rifles were AR's in every configuration imaginable running from 8-10 lbs. You can see the advantage, and I can tell you that success in these classes has alot to do with energy management over the 4 days. The KT was a definate winner in this regard.

WE also had 4 guys that drove in from New York in an Escalade! One was from AUS and he was the star of the whole class. And my partner was a veternarian from Cody WY who also works as a cook in hunting camps during elk season. (Lucky SOB!) It was one of the best groups I've shot with. People from all over the US.

I used all of my Magpul P Mags in the gun and they performed flawlessly both the 20 and 30 round versions. You can only load the 20 rnd mags to 19 and the 30 round ones to 27 due to the tension on the spring. They will break in with continued use. The gun looks cool and handles very well with the 30 round mags in place.

I didn't do as well on the test as I would have liked, mainly due to the fatigue of shooting for 4 days strait in the Southern Nevada Desert. AS is typical, I shoot really good for the first two days then start going down hill rapidly, and by day four when you do the skills test I shoot like Ship. Mind you, on the run thru right before the test I am perfect, but the fatigue of 4 days shooting catches up with me rapidly after lunch on day 4.

We both almost died on day three, and we left at 3PM and went to the house and went to sleep at 7pm after a big dinner!

After all was done we drove 6 hours, and 350 miles back home after class last night. Arriving at 11PM sharp.

A few days rest and I'll be vicious.

All in all the gun performed very well and I am absolutely thrilled with it. The light weight was a key factor, and the reliability was very good over all. I should have cleaned it at least by day three but that is on me. It still run good all thru the test and any problems were shooter related and not equipment related. I am looking for a small inexpensive magnifier that I can remove and replace easily to supliment the red dot. Also one of those front handles with the spring loaded bipod in the bottom would be a nice addition for the long shots going prone.

Maybe next time I'll work out for a week or so before we go, so I can actually attain the prone position in a timely fashion. You have 6.5 seconds to get the shot off at 200 and 5.0 at 100 yards. You have as much time as you need to get back up!

The Kel-Tec SU16CA is a definate winner!

Great time was had by all.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I can't believe nobody has commented on this post. This is the best endorsement of a Kel Tec Rifle I have seen.

You guys really need to look at one of these guns.. The fact that it does what it does so well is just one point.

It also folds in half and will fit in a Day Pack as well!

Randy

[perotter]

Thanks for the report about this rifle. It's good see someone here tell about it, as I give more credibility to the members here than I do other places.

I've looked at buying one in the past and currently waiting to the market to return to normal(whatever that is). The main reason I didn't buy one a couple of years ago was the length of pull. It was a little longer than I like for winter use and was much to long for the then 12 year old daughter.

[Combat Diver]

Randy,

Thanks for the updates during the last 5-6 months. I'm sure most of the stellar performance is the shooter :D. Only problem I see with KelTec is lack of availablity, just not that common. Except for the P32 or P38T, I just don't seem them. I'm surprised that your PMags are going you load problems (quote: You can only load the 20 rnd mags to 19 and the 30 round ones to 27 due to the tension on the spring) as I've never experinced that after using dozens and seen hundards used. I won't mind getting my hands on one of the SU16s, I concur they would make a great truck gun.


CD

[W.R.Buchanan]

The biggest problem with these guns is the availablilty. Try B&H Gunrack in Florida google "B&H Gunrack."

They are within 8 miles of the factory and get first dibs on virtually everything Kel -Tec makes. They would be your best bet on find one of these guns. The hardest Kel-Tec guns to come by currently are the Sub 2000's and the KSG Shotguns, and once again B&H is the best bet for any of those.

CD: the mags are all brand new and the springs are a little stiff, they will eventually wear in. I just couldn't get the 30 round ones to go all the way in and latch with the bolt closed when doing a Tac reload I couldn't squish the rounds any lower into the mag. Removed a couple of rounds and they went right in. I could get them in with the bolt open.

The other problem I had was if I chamber checked with a full mag by opening the bolt a little, it was hard to get the bolt all the way back in battery due to the upward pressure on the boltcarrier from the full mag. I started Chamber Checking by removing the mag and checking for round on the other side instead of opening the bolt.

There is no forward assist on these guns so you must rely on the spring to close the bolt all the way, which is best accomplished by letting it go from the locked position.

What would happen if the gun was not all the way in battery is that the round would still fire (most of the time) but the extractor was not fully over the case rim so the case got left in the chamber and the next round fed in behind it causing a Type 3 malfunction.

This only happend 4 times during the course but one of the times was in a man on man shoot off.

I had not figured out what was going on yet and I cracked the bolt open to CC. I fired and this caused a type 3, however I didn't recognize it as such because the next round was sticking out the side of the gun like a stove pipe!(type 2) I racked again and got no click no bang so I looked and saw the type 3. Went thru the motions and got running again and shot all three targets in about 2 seconds. This whole mess took about 15 seconds.

I won because the other guy who was running a Noveske AR ALSO got a Type 3 malfunction except his was a real double feed with two rounds crammed into the chamber. My gun is easier to clear than an AR with two rounds stuffed into the chamber, so I prevailed.

After that episode I figured out why it was happening and stopped cracking the bolt open to Chamber Check.

The next two rounds went fairly fast as I just took my time and shot three rounds each time and my opponents missed a bunch.

I lost in the semi final to an Afgan Vet. That episode lasted 4 whole seconds and I missed the first shot at the hostage so I fired 4 rounds. He didn't miss the first shot and only fired three rounds. He won by tenths. Then he got beat in the final by shooting the hostage!

I got third place IE; 3rd out of 57 or second loser.

They were all less than half my age.

The gun played a big part in this, I'm really not that good. [smilie=p:

Life is good.

Randy

[W.R.Buchanan]

I shot a three gun match this last Sunday with some guys from the Santa Barbara club. Once again the gun absolutely shined. I kind of sucked but the gun worked really well.

There were two other KT's there as well and those guys did pretty well too. I finally convinced them to use the KT's and leave the AR's in the trucks. They were happy they did.

Next month we are ramping up the scenarios, we'll see how the older generation does against the younger guys.

I might use the Sub 2000 and my G35 on the next go round. A little work to do on that one before I can use it.

Randy