Group buy on Lee C324-175-1R in a six cavity, any interest?

[Dutch4122]

Not sure if this one has been done or proposed before, but I thought I'd just see if anybody was interested. I'm thinking we'd keep Lee's design as is with one exception: as cast from wheelweight alloy I'd like to see it drop from the mold at .326." Call it a C326-175-1R.

Also, we can let this one wait til some can recover from all the other group buys that have just went in. Maybe send the order in at the end of September?

Anybody interested in casting 6 of these at once as opposed to 1 at a time?

[porkchop bob]

I am interested. Count me in for this group buy. Thanks, Bob

[Bodydoc447]

I am interested.

Doc

[brimic]

I would be interested.

[Rick N Bama]

Count me in if it's a .326.

Rick

[castalott]

Probably me too! I need a good 8mm mold....

[Dutch4122]

Pretty good response for a little less than 24 hours. If we get close to 25 who say they want one I'll go to the next step of posting an my address so the checks can be sent.

Rick N Bama: It's definately going to be a .326"

Like I said at the beginning, we can wait til maybe the end of September to send this one in; unless those who are serious want it sent in sooner. Just thought that maybe some members would like some time to let their wallets ;) recover from all the recent group buy activity.

[45 2.1]

Dutch-
What is the present diameter of the nose on the LEE mold, and does it engrave on your rifle. If not, are you going to increase its diameter also?

[Johnch]

I would take one.

Johnch

[mroliver77]

I am interested but would like to see it a little fatter yet. I have three 8mm with .327-.328" throats and one at .324". I need to hike to the barn and see what I need for a nose diameter. Depending on the finished drawing but I am very interested. Jay

[Mel-4857]

I'm in for one . Mel

[TCLouis]

I will certainly look at this VERY seriously (can one say BUY) when it is offered!!

[Rick N Bama]

My wallet needs to recover after all the casting/reloading stuff I've bought lately. I was in the saving mode for some food, but I think I'll save for this mold instead:) Need to get the wife a job!

Rick

[sundog]

Ummm, yea. I'm interested.... The one lunger just don't cut it. sundog

[Dutch4122]

So far looks like we have 12-13 in favor. As stated I'm thinking we should let this one ride until the end of September to let a few wallets cool down. Maybe we'll be able to get enough interest for a few more than 25 molds.

45 2.1-

I have been on vacation and did not see your question posted before I left. I measured a handful of the C324-175-1R's (cast of wheelweight) that I have left over. Nose came out to .3125" measured just forward of the front band. Diameter across the driving bands measured right at .326"

These have chambered fine in my Persian Mauser during my one outing with the rifle. They were pan lubed and seated to the crimp groove over 16 grains of 2400. Didn't do any bench work with them, just short range plinking at pop cans. Never ejected one out of the chamber to check for even slight engraving on the nose. I will make up some dummies and see if they engrave the nose at all. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

[Bodydoc447]

I would love to get in on this one. I am all in favor of letting it ride until September so I can reline my wallet a little after all the recent and ongoing group buys. Can everyone else wait until then, too?

BodyDoc447

[C1PNR]

I'd be in for 1 and maybe 2 (will check with my Brother). Would favor the larger diameter, too. At least one of mine is .325. I do need to slug the others.

[bascom32423]

Hi,

I'm interested. Please count me in.

Thanks,
Henry

[rikkit]

You can never have too many 8mm molds, I want in on this one!

[Dutch4122]

Ok, heres the deal. I've been trading some PM's back and forth with 45 2.1 and he makes a very good argument for a few slight changes in the original Lee C324-175-1R. In a nut shell were talking a larger nose diameter so the boolit will engrave and also giving this thing more lube capacity. I can't see any reason within my limited experience to disagree when he is talking about tweeking this design so that it will serve a wider range of shooters much better than the original.

So, unless we get an awful lot of resistance to pursuing these changes I'll ask 45 2.1 to forgive my initial resistance toward change (a bad habit of mine;)) and ask him to improve this design.

Any problems from the group?

[Maineboy]

I've got to agree that those proposed changes would be beneficial. I have 4 8mms and all of them need a fatter nosed boolit than the standard Lee offering.

Ok, heres the deal. I've been trading some PM's back and forth with 45 2.1 and he makes a very good argument for a few slight changes in the original Lee C324-175-1R. In a nut shell were talking a larger nose diameter so the boolit will engrave and also giving this thing more lube capacity. I can't see any reason within my limited experience to disagree when he is talking about tweeking this design so that it will serve a wider range of shooters much better than the original.

So, unless we get an awful lot of resistance to pursuing these changes I'll ask 45 2.1 to forgive my initial resistance toward change (a bad habit of mine;)) and ask him to improve this design.

Any problems from the group?

[Rick N Bama]

As cast from Wheelweights, I would like to see the boolit kept under 200grs. I measured my 8MM Karabiner at .320 just ahead of the last driving band and it chambers fine in my only Mauser. As long as it's kept at .320 or under, go for it.

Rick

[Bodydoc447]

Changes sound okay to me. I'm still in.

BodyDoc447

[C1PNR]

As long as we are making some changes, do we want to add a flat point for hunting purposes? May help to keep the weight down, too.

Or just slightly shorten the OAL of the boolit to keep the weight in the 175 + - area.

We'll probably be in for 2.

Buckshot, how far off are we from your design? I can't find a drawing of yours anywhere.

[btr-cj]

I'll take one of these also.

Been on the group for 3 days and have ordered two moulds.

If this keeps up I WILL need a second job.

[Dutch4122]

Looks like we're at 16 interested (give or take) so not too bad for 10 days. I'll be sending some of the original Lee C324-175-1R boolits to 45 2.1 early next week so that he can take measurements and start working on the changes mentioned earlier.

C1PNR- I originally told 45 2.1 that I'd like to keep the original nose profile. However, if going to a flat point design will help keep the weight down I'd be all for it.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/29A646FD8B4A5E4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/ADF9F422ACC2AA7/standard.jpg

I don't have a direct comparison photo nor a picture of my drawing for the boolit. The photo on the right is my slug. The boolit on the right in the right photo is one that has been sized from .325" to .323" and then to .314". As you can see, the .316" nose has been sized. My boolit is right at 1.2" long. The Lee is about an inch.

About the proposed custom boolit. Ya know guys, the thing just the way it is, is a pretty darn fine shooting slug. It might need to be fattened a bit on the nose to satisfy the worn or longer military leades in some rifles. However, proposals have this boolit becoming something it's not. As it stands with it's nose design it's not a real good hunting slug, but is that that what everyone is wanting, or is everyone wanting what Lee already makes with a fatter nose and in a 6 cavity?

So far as I'm concerned the boolit already carries sufficient lube. At least for the 3 rifles I have in 8mm with their 29" barrels it does. I'd be tickled if Lee was called up and it went like this, "Hey, you know that 175gr 8mm boolit mould you have? Yep, do that in a 6 cavity please". Increasing the body or nose diameter a couple thou might add 5 grains weight if that. No big.

Just my thoughts. The majority will rule.

...............Buckshot

[Oldfeller]

Buckshot, let them boys be -- they's a making a 6 up plinker 8mm bullet to suit a set of criterial that have NOTHING much at all to do with our big old heavy slugs. They are chasing a different rabbit completely.

They are working with 45 2.1 so they won't go off into the weeds with what they do design. It will work well and perform the intended task -- 45 2.1 is the best most experienced bullet designer that we have.

Let them have their learning experience and go down the path they have chosen towards the goal they have in mind.

As head moddyrater you gotta watch out when expressing "strong opinions" on items, you can choke discussion off accidentally when you do that. And yes, I know its no fun not being able to express an opinion without it being taken as holy writ all of a sudden, you didn't ask to be the Pope -- they asked you if you would ride herd on folks like me, mainly because we would listen to folks like Waskupi and you when we started to get too rowdy.

Me, I like the discussion part of a new bullet design -- but I also know I have strong opinons so I leave LOTS of room for the folks who are doing it to talk it on through. As a matter of fact you ain't heard a peep outta me while they are a talking their way throught their thoughts. Their thoughts sound good so far and they should be able to finish those thoughts on out uninterupted.

Let'um go, it's their turn now.

They realize the stock LEE design needs help in nose engagement, they don't need too much help to realize that a short bullet isn't going rifling engage in a long .325" standard Paul Mauser throat and they may tend to gravitate more towards a short very fat Loverin type design when they understand those thoughts. The short slug is going to have to engage the .326"-.327" smooth throat section "as-seated" and run down that totally smooth throat at least a quarter inch before it ever sees the origin of the rifling in the standard Paul Mauser throat.

This is what they are facing unless they are making up a Yugo 48-A specific bullet, in which case they should just say so.

Just like the 6.5 Kurtz slug, you gotta deal with having enough diameter to get good contact and alignment in the wide worn throat section that your installed short slug can reach -- and then transiting down the smooth throat to get to the rifling .....

But 45 2.1 is their designer and he understands all this stuff just dandy -- so they got their "uncle" on hand for coaching them on these issues anyway.

Specifically, they don't need too much kibbitzing on our part, just a good throat slug or two out of their own guns to study a bit.

Oldfeller

[Dutch4122]

I hope that this all comes across the right way because I think when this process is done we're gonna have a pretty darn good boolit. And, I hope a lot of interest in ordering this design. :)

Originally I did just want to have Lee cut their C324-175-1R in a six cavity mold. My only change was going to be I wanted an as cast diameter of at least .326" guaranteed from wheelweights.

45 2.1 contacted me by PM on this board and convinced me that their were changes (nose diameter, lube capacity, etc.) that should be made to this original design that will make it shoot better for everyone. One specific type of 8mm rifle is not the focus (mine is a long barreled 98/29 Persian Mauser made at BRNO by the way). It took some time/patience on his part because I was a little stubborn at first about too many changes to a design that many think is "pretty good as is." Here are the criteria that we have been discussing:

1) Boolit weight at 175 grns

2) As cast diameter AT LEAST .326" when cast from wheelweights

3) Fatten the nose diameter (see Buckshot & Oldfeller posts above)

4) Keep the original nose profile

5) Gas check design

6) More lube capacity

I will add one more possible change here and that happens to do with nose profile. A couple of members have mentioned putting a meplat on this thing for hunting and 45 2.1 has suggested a small meplat as well. As I told C1PNR above, I'd be okay with that if it would help keep the weight in the range we need it.

My original idea for this Group Buy was to get a 6-banger that could produce a lot of Boolits for the 8mm to be used in plinking and paper punching loads. Something that would work for the "+or- 16 grains 0f 2400" crowd. I'm leaning towards staying away from a big meplat due to some of the feeding issues I've seen mentioned on other customs with a big meplat. Now, with that being said I want to apologize to the group for not getting my intentions across more clearly on what I was trying to do with this custom run.

Hopefully this will work out well for everybody that is interested in an 8mm 6 cavity custom.

-Matt

P.S. Thanks to everybody for their input and interest on this idea and especially to 45 2.1 for his advice.

[Urny]

Methinks the Oldfeller boolits fill the hunting projectile role pretty well. The Lee as a plinker six holer makes sense to me, so there you have one vote for the original design, fatted up a bit.

[mroliver77]

I am OK with or without the meplat. The nose increase is a needed improvement IMHO. .326 is still too small for my worn Mauser throats.My three well used guns need .327" and I would like to see it designed for .328". Another custom mould I have is supposed to cast .424 from WW but I get .453-.4535 and to get them to .454 the alloy gets too hard. Not ******** just stating a fact.

45 2.1 , have you got any chamber slugs? I can send some if needed. I would be interested in what others throats measure. It is the throat we need to work with, no? Jay

[Bodydoc447]

I am in favor of a fairly universal plinker, with or without the meplat. Just want it to fit all of my 8mm rather than just fine tuning it for one of them.

Doc

[45 2.1]

45 2.1 , have you got any chamber slugs? I can send some if needed. I would be interested in what others throats measure. It is the throat we need to work with, no? Jay

I've got full data on several 8mm throats from when I did the 8mm Karabiner. Like whats been stated before, the nose probably won't reach the lands. The nose will be large and taper slightly in all likelyhood to fill the throat up. Dutch is sennding a dummy for me also.

[slug]

I'm in for an 8 mm. 6 banger.
Stew

[Kirby]

I would like one of these molds also. Let me know where to send the $!!
Sounds like just the thing for my 8mm Mauser and 8x56R.
Thanks,
Kirby

[Oldfeller]

"Sounds like just the thing for my 8mm Mauser and 8x56R"

Ok, I know 45 2.1 is good and can intelligently stretch things a bit for coverage when requested -- but Buckshot & Starmetal Joe can tell you it really takes a really monstrous big headed bullet to do a 8x56 Steyr correctly.

Oldfeller

[Dutch4122]

[QUOTE=Bodydoc447]I am in favor of a fairly universal plinker, with or without the meplat. Just want it to fit all of my 8mm rather than just fine tuning it for one of them.

Doc-

That's exactly what 45 2.1 is working on for us.

[45 2.1]

Take a look!

[Bodydoc447]

45 2.1

The drawings are terrific! I would be in for either the RN or the Flat. Thanks for doing the drawings for us mental visualization-impaired folks.

Doc

[sundog]

I'd been in for one of the FN versions. It could also be used in the 32 Win Spl. sundog

[felix]

Bob, if satisfactory for the group purposes, please keep the meplat equal to or less than 0.2 and length equal to or less than 0.9. Those are the dimensions measured on the RCBS 32-170. Reason? 16 twist functionality in the 32 special. This boolit is an exquisite shooter in this twist. ... felix

[Oldfeller]

Nose dimensions? Since you are doubling up with 32 caliber we need to talk nose and main band dimensions.

8mm could take literally a nose right on up to .325" (yeah, its in the throat area and that is actually bigger than bore diameter) but a .32 caliber rifle can't do that.

Oldfeller

[felix]

Yep, Kelly, nose for a 32 winnie special cannot be over .317. My RCBS boolit is at .314, and that is on the small side for my gun. I think Sundog's RCBS boolit measures .315 and that's where it just barely begins to touch the lands on my gun. If we go over .317 I am sure that would leave out the 32 specials for an application. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Meplat = 0.150"

O.A.L. = 0.907"

nose is being worked out, but will be larger than 32 Spl specs more than likely. Probably 0.320" and possibly with a taper. 8mm throats are usually large.

Felix-
Exactly how far in front of the case do these dimensions occur, some measurements from you guys would help if you have any chance of a dual use. You can easily engrave two thousandths into a nose if it just touches for a little ways. A impact throat slug with case attached would do from you and Sundog.

[felix]

I think it is BruceB who has the smallest throat/bore in 32 special. He has a Marlin if I remember correctly. I think his barrels were made using the old .318 german military surplus as stock. My guess. The leade in the modern winnie is very short. I'll see what I can do in getting you a measurement from my gun. ... felix

[grumble]

"...some measurements from you guys would help if you have any chance of a dual use..."

Bob, I have a couple new 32 WS barrels. Slugged them both. Both had rifling origions right at .316, and throats measured .320 and .321.

8mm Mausers are all over the place. I'm of the opinion that the only way to fit a boolit to a Mauser throat is to find a proper nose punch and swage it into shape.

Personally, I vote for the .324 Modified (middle one in your comparison pic). I like the steeper taper of the Lee nose so the boolit doesn't have to be loaded "long" to engage the rifling.

[45 2.1]

"...some measurements from you guys would help if you have any chance of a dual use..."

Bob, I have a couple new 32 WS barrels. Slugged them both. Both had rifling origions right at .316, and throats measured .320 and .321.
I need to know where that 0.316" occurs, how far from the case mouth. This LEE slug is short and probably won't nose engrave in normal 8mm throats, so i'm trying to make it as fat as possible, but not too fat causing problems. All the throats i've measured are tapered and the nose might hit the rifling if done right in both calibers.

8mm Mausers are all over the place. I'm of the opinion that the only way to fit a boolit to a Mauser throat is to find a proper nose punch and swage it into shape.
The Karabiner and maximum fit the large throated 8mms very well, but that throat is big and long too.

Personally, I vote for the .324 Modified (middle one in your comparison pic). I like the steeper taper of the Lee nose so the boolit doesn't have to be loaded "long" to engage the rifling.
The .324 modified is more in line with what Dutch wanted and this is his show.

Throat impact slugs from 32 Spls. would help in determining if the nose could be tweeked to fit here. It might be that the FN could be made to fit both if I had a couple of samples from different rifles.

[felix]

Bob, I don't think it is practical. Yes, we can make the boolit fit with some outside influence, but that is not intended for a 6 banger's production style. So, let's forget about the dualality purpose of the mold! Besides, I don't think Sundog and I shoot enough of the 321 caliber to make any further suggestions. ... felix

[grumble]

45 2.1, PM me your snail mail, and I'll send you a chamber cast with cerrosafe. I'd like to get the cerrosafe back, though. If you'd rather, I could also do one out of wax or maybe Bondo? Wouldn't need those back.

I could also do some dummy rounds, but I'll have to form the brass first. Lemme know what you'd prefer, and I'll do what I can.

[Dutch4122]

Looks like we have 22 interested give or take with a couple more that might jump in depending on the final design.

I put up a poll on the nose design of this custom. Figured the best idea would be to let the group decide if they want the Modified F/N or the Modified R/N design as drawn by 45 2.1. We already have plenty of interest in an 8mm custom so we should get enough votes to settle the question.

Bob, thanks for putting up the drawings.

[grumble]

"I need to know where that 0.316" occurs, how far from the case mouth."

Bob, I got different readings with different boolits (.170-.182) when trying to measure this distance. Looks like it comes out pretty close to .170" though. Had problems with the nose diameters being too small on some to be able to engrave the rifling with the boolit seated all the way out. I think if you assume the .170" distance from the case mouth to the rifling origion, though, you won't be off by more than a couple thou at the most. That margin of error can be made up by adjusting seating depth.

[C1PNR]

I put up a poll on the nose design of this custom. Figured the best idea would be to let the group decide if they want the Modified F/N or the Modified R/N design as drawn by 45 2.1. We already have plenty of interest in an 8mm custom so we should get enough votes to settle the question.
I can't seem to find the poll on nose shape.

[C1PNR]

Sure glad I posted my question about the poll. I immediately went out and found it. Thanks.

[45 2.1]

"I need to know where that 0.316" occurs, how far from the case mouth."

Bob, I got different readings with different boolits (.170-.182) when trying to measure this distance. Looks like it comes out pretty close to .170" though. Had problems with the nose diameters being too small on some to be able to engrave the rifling with the boolit seated all the way out. I think if you assume the .170" distance from the case mouth to the rifling origion, though, you won't be off by more than a couple thou at the most. That margin of error can be made up by adjusting seating depth.

Thanks grumble, i'll put that to use.

[45 2.1]

grumble and other 32 spl users-

The bullet at 0.17" forward of the case mouth is 0.320" diameter (versus 0.316" at 0.17" forward on grumbles 32 spl rifle) which should engrave into your rifleing pretty well. knowing LEEs ability to not get up to anticipated diameter, this FN bullet should work for you especially if you crimp over the front band.

[grumble]

That should do it. Even if it's a bit large, seating depths should accomodate just fine. In any event, I'd rather it were a tad oversize anyway!

[Dutch4122]

A new thread has been started on this 8mm custom with the ordering information.

Also, 45 2.1 will be posting the final design diagram on that thread.