Powder and primer storage in the house

[crabo]

I have been keeping most of my primers and a lot of my powder in the house. At what point do you think it becomes dangerous to store large amounts in the house?

I have it stored in a wooden cabinet now. Primers and powders in the same cabinet, on different shelves.

[runfiverun]

not sure about the amounts.
some locales have rules on how much you can have.
i keep some pf my preimers in a cabinet above the powder shelves, some in another cabinet and some in drawers.
i keep most of the powder on a 4'x4' wood shelf,and some on a metal shelf that i also store the loaded ammo on.
i hope there isn't a limit here,or i''m gonna be in trouble if anyone ever weighed it all.

[waksupi]

My local fire department has strict instructions to stay the hell away from my cabin and shop if they are on fire.

[SciFiJim]

I've read in various places that it varies from state to state. Here in California, we can have 20 lbs of powder and 10K primers in the house. Other places it is 25 lbs of powder in the house and no limit on primers.

There are also rules about keeping it in a wooden box with 1 inch thick walls. It's part of the fire code. I am sure someone can readily point to it. I've read it, but didn't keep a link.

I always play it safe and only keep one container of the powder I am currently working with and about 1K primers in the house. The rest stays in an outbuilding.

[oneokie]

National Fire Protection code has guidelines. Most of the freebie handout reloading pamplets have those guidelines included. Local codes can and do have different amounts permitted. Usually much less than what is spelled out in the NFP code.

[5shotbfr]

im glad i live out in the boonies without them pesky zoning laws

[Lloyd Smale]

no zoning laws here but i lost my barn in a fire and it had probably 200lbs of powder and a 100k of primers in it at time along with many thousands of rounds of ammo and it was amazing how it fueled the fire. the barn was steal sided and 40x40 and burned TO THE GROUND in 30 minutes. Even the steal roof melted. I came back home just at the end of it and there was still ammo popping off and believe it or not i had to tell the fireman to get back. they were right in the midst of it trying to put it out. I told them it was gone and theres wasnt anything they were going to do and i didnt want anyone hurt. My neighbor watched the whole thing and he said when the primers and powder caught there was just like a dull roar or a couple minutes and the walls near by started to glow. If there would have been someone in there they wouldnt have had a chance. When i built the new one i put a loading room in it and built it out of solid 6 inch concreat reinforced walls. It may not stop a fire totaly but at least ammo cooking off wouldnt hurt anyone. i found shell cases on top the roof of my house and all over my yard. I still find them 4 years later when i mow the grass. Personaly id NEVER store powder or primers near where someone lived again. Fire was caused by an unatteneded casting pot. Something else i will never let happen again!

[dragon813gt]

NFPA 31 has the regulations. You are fine with any normal method up to 20#s of powder. Between 20-50#s it has the be stored in a wooden container with walls no thinner than 1" thick. There are more details in the manual which you find online.

Also check your state/local codes. I know of areas in MD that only allow storage of 5#s total on your property. I also strongly urge people to follow the guidelines. If a fire does happen there will be an investigation. Your insurance provider will be looking for a reason to not pay the claim. Last thing you want is for that to happen.


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[Bad Water Bill]

Back in the 60s I asked a local LEO how they stored their reloading supplies.

Get an OLD refrigerator. Never heard of the stuff melting inside of one in ANY fire. Remove the door lock and just use an old lock and hasp setup to keep it secure.

Another department said build a box out of 3/4" plywood. Again takes a very long time for heat to penetrate.

So all of my components are stored in refrigeratorS lined inside with plywood boxes and separate doors on each box which are in separate locations.

No one needs to know what is on my property.

[oldred]

About 4 years ago my old barn (at least 60 years old) collapsed during a storm and since the thing was not close to any other buildings we decided to just burn it before cleaning up the mess. Under the debris I knew there was some loading supplies that had been stored there for almost 10 years, mostly brass and bullets for a couple of calibers I no longer load for but there was some old powder also. I know there was a 1lb can of Dupont PB and an old but unopened 1 lb can of Bullseye plus a couple of partial cans that I could not remember but no BP or primers in the lot. The local volunteer FD came by with their truck to monitor the situation in case the fire got out of hand so before we started it I told them about the supplies under the ruble so they would be aware of it, we all agreed that it should be no problem at all especially since there were no primers or BP involved. This stuff was stored in sealed plastic bags to keep moisture out and the bags were then placed inside a thin steel filing cabinet which was buried under all that 60 year old oak lumber we were watching as it burned, what happened was totally unexpected! We were waiting (from a distance of course) for the fireball and wondering if it would make much noise, it DID! Suddenly there was a deafening boom and flaming wood was soaring high in the air, the fire station is down in the valley below my farm about a mile and a half away and they called the guys with the firetruck to find out what blew up! We expected a fireball and maybe some noise but this was a much more violent explosion than we expected, I guess under the intense heat and conditions of something like a house fire even relativity small amounts of smokeless powder can behave in an unexpected way.

[linotype]

Could you use a fire resistant floor safe to store powder or primers?

[Roundnoser]

If a fire does happen there will be an investigation. Your insurance provider will be looking for a reason to not pay the claim. Last thing you want is for that to happen.

If my house burns to the ground, and the insurance company asks me how much powder I had, I'm not going to give them any reason to deny my claim!

[felix]

....even relativity small amounts of smokeless powder can behave in an unexpected way...... OldRed

SEE can happen at any time, but usually (always? But, don't bet on it.) an enclosure of some sort is required. ... felix

[Roundnoser]

If the fire safety codes call for placing large quantities of powder into a wooden box with 1-inch or thicker walls, couldn't that result in a explosion of the powder? I assume that modern powders would just burn energetically if not confined in a tight space where pressure could develope.

[Jim]

If the fire safety codes call for placing large quantities of powder into a wooden box with 1-inch or thicker walls, couldn't that result in a explosion of the powder? I assume that modern powders would just burn energetically if not confined in a tight space where pressure could develope.

Good question. Seems to me the wood container would have to burn through before the powder would ignite. On the other hand, if the temperature inside the box reaches auto ignition level before the box walls burn through, the powder would self ignite.

Does that make sense?

[dragon813gt]

If my house burns to the ground, and the insurance company asks me how much powder I had, I'm not going to give them any reason to deny my claim!

You won't have to tell them. There will be an investigation and they will find out. If you think you know better than the fire code then by all means store it how you want to. The codes are there to protect the fire fighters and you the homeowner. Putting your home insurance at risk because you think you know better is just dumb. I can tell you for a fact that claims have been denied for less. As soon as they find reloading supplies in the rubble there will be a test for powders and primers. They don't take these type of things with a grain of salt. Especially when it's a claim for rebuilding a new home.


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[Baja_Traveler]

Here are the Felony amounts listed in California law - everyone I know and shoot with routinely have more than this. Me - well I'm copping to nothing! Ever try to shoot a flintlock with only one grain of BP? I have an old fire safe with 3" of fire brick all around it, I figure it's good until the fire department shows and starts pumping water.

Over 20 Pounds Of Smokeless Gunpowder Or More Than One Pound Of Black Powder. Even if intended for use in sporting firearms, California provides felony penalties for possessing more than the stated amounts of gunpowder without special permits.

[1Shirt]

It's all academic until something goes to hell in a hand basket!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[oldred]

I assume that modern powders would just burn energetically if not confined in a tight space where pressure could develop.



That's what I assumed, mistakenly however. The powder I mentioned was in the containers they were sold in which was stored in "Zip-Lock" plastic food storage bags, these were then placed in a filing cabinet drawer so except for factory containers they were sold in there was nothing to really confine the powder. I don't know if it was exposure to the intense heat or what but one thing I do know for sure is that it was a very violent event that far exceeded anything we expected, I have no doubt it could have resulted in serious injuries had anyone been close to it.

[runfiverun]

that's why they use plastic containers with so much extra room in them.
it gives room for gas expansion in the jug before it bursts the seams [or burns through the jug] and let's the powder burn in open air.
the metal cans don't, they become a bomb.

[Alchemist]

That's what I assumed, mistakenly however. The powder I mentioned was in the containers they were sold in which was stored in "Zip-Lock" plastic food storage bags, these were then placed in a filing cabinet drawer so except for factory containers they were sold in there was nothing to really confine the powder. I don't know if it was exposure to the intense heat or what but one thing I do know for sure is that it was a very violent event that far exceeded anything we expected, I have no doubt it could have resulted in serious injuries had anyone been close to it.

Most likely the barn collapsing on top of the filing cabinet crushed the whole thing into a giant shell casing. Add the weight of the barn debris laying on top, and the resistance to the expanding powder gas would be fairly significant. Once the powder ignited, the results speak for themselves.

Unconfined smokeless powder burns very inefficiently. It needs to be contained to generate pressure. The storage cabinet construction guidelines state that the joints should be weak so the cabinet can burst open at a low pressure to avoid having an catastrophic failure.

[C.F.Plinker]

National Fire Protection code has guidelines. Most of the freebie handout reloading pamplets have those guidelines included. Local codes can and do have different amounts permitted. Usually much less than what is spelled out in the NFP code.

Some of the freebie handouts and information in the reloading manuals is very outdated. I have seen some recently that refer to the 1985 NFPA 495. The latest revision is the 2010 revision. IIRC it says that all powder must be kept in the original factory containers. If the amount of smokeless powder exceeds 20 pounds but is not greater than 50 pounds the factory containers must be stored in a wood container having 1" walls. The original factory containers of black powder must also be stored in the wood container up to 20 pounds. The storage requirements get more rigorous once you exceed 50 pounds of smokeless or 20 pounds of black powder.

You can keep up to 10,000 primers in the cartons of 100 or 1000. Once you go over 10,000 you can keep up to 150,000 if they are in the DOT 1.4S shipping containers.

Other posts in this thread correctly point out that local fire codes may not refer to the latest revision of the NFPA codes and that local laws may further limit the quantities you can store in a residence.

[Roundnoser]

You won't have to tell them. There will be an investigation and they will find out. If you think you know better than the fire code then by all means store it how you want to. The codes are there to protect the fire fighters and you the homeowner. Putting your home insurance at risk because you think you know better is just dumb. I can tell you for a fact that claims have been denied for less. As soon as they find reloading supplies in the rubble there will be a test for powders and primers. They don't take these type of things with a grain of salt. Especially when it's a claim for rebuilding a new home.


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You wouldn't be calling me "dumb" now would you? That wouldn't be nice! Come on now Dragon, we're all just trying to learn and have a little fun while doing it. Surely you sensed a little playful sarcasm in that post, didn't you?!

Just so you know, and in case my insurance company is monitoring this...As a responsible homeowner, I would never, ever exceed any powder or primer limit established in my insurance policy or community standard.

See, now everything is all better.

[GabbyM]

Quick inventory of this house and lot reviels.
Three 20lb LP gas cylinders.
An LP gas tank for the house. Think that's 300 gallon.
An old step van with two 80 gallon fuel tanks. One D2 one gasoline.
Combine and four tractors with aproxamately 160 gallons of D2 and gas on board between them. All the D2 will be drained after bean harvest and sold to a neighbour to burn through his heating stove.
Two lawn tractors with 3 gallon tanks and 5 and 1 gallon carry cans. plus a weed eater and a coupel push mowers with smal tanks.
Paint and solvents.

The house here was built in the 1890's and is described by a fireman family member as a match box. All my relaoding equipmnet and supplies are at my home in town.

My take on it is house fires are a nightmare. Toxic fumes from furniture is what I percieve as the great danger. But I'm no fireman.

[oldred]

Most likely the barn collapsing on top of the filing cabinet crushed the whole thing into a giant shell casing. Add the weight of the barn debris laying on top, and the resistance to the expanding powder gas would be fairly significant. Once the powder ignited, the results speak for themselves.

Unconfined smokeless powder burns very inefficiently. It needs to be contained to generate pressure. The storage cabinet construction guidelines state that the joints should be weak so the cabinet can burst open at a low pressure to avoid having an catastrophic failure.

Well you just caused me one of those "now why didn't I think of that" moments. That's the most logical explanation so far and likely was what happened but the fact remains that in a burning house anything might happen unlikely or not, in the event the fire causes the house to collapse on a protected storage the same thing could happen. In such a case a fire resistant storage container might actually compound the problem rather than make it safer, lot's of maybes and mights but they are all distinct possibilities.

[Roundnoser]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

[Jim]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

I'd use it.

[SciFiJim]

What would you think about storing primers / powder in an old chest freezer? I have one in my basement that hasn't worked in years. It is a big compartment, insulated and is water-tight.

For everyday storage it would be ideal. However, in the event of a house fire, something heavy could land on the top and effectively seal the container and make it a bomb. Do you have a shed or outbuilding that you could put the old freezer in? A small building would be less likely to have something heavy fall on the top.

:Bright idea:Or you could stand the freezer on end and build shelves on the inside of it. That could actually increase the usable storage area.

[Jammer Six]

If the fire safety codes call for placing large quantities of powder into a wooden box with 1-inch or thicker walls, couldn't that result in a explosion of the powder?

No.

Modern propellent burns, it does not explode.

Speaking as a general contractor, all of the continental United States and Hawaii is covered by zoning laws at some level.

I'm not sure about Alaska, those folks are nuts.

The weirdest zoning model I've read (at one point, it was a minor hobby of mine) dealt with salt water crocodiles. The most expensive were all commercial. The oldest dealt with water rights, the newest (at that time) with energy conservation.

Don't go by zoning laws. Zoning laws are the barest, lowest standard. They are an absolute minimum.

If you're looking for guidelines from industry, look for "best practices."

Best practices are the opposite of zoning laws. Best practices will actually work.

[MtGun44]

Bullseye is about 20% nitroglycerine, IIRC. I'd bet the boom was the BE going off.

Bill

[Blacksmith]

No one has mentioned one of the worst containers for storing powder and primers. For any newbee's reading this DON"T store bulk powder and primers in GI Ammo cans. They seal very tightly and are of strong construction and can become bombs in a fire.

Many do store loaded ammo in ammo cans but the amount of powder and primers in loaded ammo is much less than bulk storage. Say 250 rounds of 30-06 in a 30 caliber ammo can has about 1 3/4 pound of powder and 250 primers and they are unlikely to all cook off at the same time.

[Lloyd Smale]

It may not explode but believe me the ignition of a couple hundred lbs of a powder and a couple hundred thousand primers at the same time is the next best thing to an explosion. My nieghbor said when mine went off there was a dull roar for about 30 seconds and within another 30 seconds the roof just melted and colaspsed and it was a newer pole barn and had 14 foot side walls so there was definately a hell of a ball of fire in there to melt that that fast. Dont know about you but id about bet if you had a loading room in your home or basement with even a 1/4 of that which probably most here do have your not going to save your home or possibly even family members.
No.

Modern propellent burns, it does not explode.

Speaking as a general contractor, all of the continental United States and Hawaii is covered by zoning laws at some level.

I'm not sure about Alaska, those folks are nuts.

The weirdest zoning model I've read (at one point, it was a minor hobby of mine) dealt with salt water crocodiles. The most expensive were all commercial. The oldest dealt with water rights, the newest (at that time) with energy conservation.

Don't go by zoning laws. Zoning laws are the barest, lowest standard. They are an absolute minimum.

If you're looking for guidelines from industry, look for "best practices."

Best practices are the opposite of zoning laws. Best practices will actually work.

[Digger]

Call me crazy maybe , after reading all the input and recommendations here on this thread .....
My old shed is separated on one end by a small room with concrete floor (the loading room) and the rest of it is covered in old canvas/carpet dirt floor . Yes it sounds strange but ..... how about using an small concrete water meter box or little bigger electrical box , N- 36 concrete box in the floor of the dirt part ? ... it can be sealed inside for water proofing ..... the lids are concrete , loose just sitting there with gravity , and in the event of fire , the concrete will have an insulating factor to some extent ..... any how just a thought for primer/powder storage .
Give me some input on the down side ? .... may be a little nuts here ? ......or not ...
digger

[oneokie]

Call me crazy maybe , after reading all the input and recommendations here on this thread .....
My old shed is separated on one end by a small room with concrete floor (the loading room) and the rest of it is covered in old canvas/carpet dirt floor . Yes it sounds strange but ..... how about using an small concrete water meter box or little bigger electrical box , N- 36 concrete box in the floor of the dirt part ? ... it can be sealed inside for water proofing ..... the lids are concrete , loose just sitting there with gravity , and in the event of fire , the concrete will have an insulating factor to some extent ..... any how just a thought for primer/powder storage .
Give me some input on the down side ? .... may be a little nuts here ? ......or not ...
digger

One of our members who lives in the desert southwest posted his storage method. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=56165

He would dig a trench in the ground and stack truck tires, then back fill around them. He used plywood? for lids and would cover with a thin layer of soil for camoflage.