Need some feedback for my young friend

[Jim]

In the 'Our Town' section, I posted about a young man that I'm helping. He recently bought a Mossberg bolt in .243. He bought it primarily as a varmint rifle with the intent to shoot 55 gr. bullets.

He asked about killing deer with it and I told him that would be no problem as he could simply and easily load 100 gr. or so and simply readjust the scope right before deer season opens.

I showed him several videos on the Barnes Varmint Grenades and the Nosler Varmegeddon bullets. Then he tells me he wants to kill deer with these varmint loads. I tried to discourage him from using such bullets for deer, telling him I thought there was much too high a probability of non lethal wounds and the deer running off and not being found.

I'd like to get some feedback from the hunting group here. Am I wrong in trying to steer him toward the heavier bullets or do I just not know what I'm talking about?

He'll be back over here in a few days and I'm hoping for a good list of responses for him to read through. I'd 'preciate it if y'all would clear this up for him and me.

Thanks, guys.

[felix]

A head shot would be about the only target I would suggest. ... felix

[Olevern]

In the 'Our Town' section, I posted about a young man that I'm helping. He recently bought a Mossberg bolt in .243. He bought it primarily as a varmint rifle with the intent to shoot 55 gr. bullets.

He asked about killing deer with it and I told him that would be no problem as he could simply and easily load 100 gr. or so and simply readjust the scope right before deer season opens.

I showed him several videos on the Barnes Varmint Grenades and the Nosler Varmegeddon bullets. Then he tells me he wants to kill deer with these varmint loads. I tried to discourage him from using such bullets for deer, telling him I thought there was much too high a probability of non lethal wounds and the deer running off and not being found.

I'd like to get some feedback from the hunting group here. Am I wrong in trying to steer him toward the heavier bullets or do I just not know what I'm talking about?

He'll be back over here in a few days and I'm hoping for a good list of responses for him to read through. I'd 'preciate it if y'all would clear this up for him and me.

Thanks, guys.

Jim (and Scotty) Not so much the weight of the bullet as the construction. The .243 was designed as a dual purpose cartridge, both for varmints and deer sized game. There are jacketed bullets designed for each purpose, but none for both. The heavier bullets are designed to expand properly on deer sized targets and the lighter bullets are designed for rapid explosive expansion on much smaller target mass. Using the varmint bullets for deer will most certainly result in wounded, lost deer. The thinner jackets will explode on the skin of a deer and not penetrate enough to kill (at least not soon enough to prevent loss of the animal).

[Hurricane]

Most gun stores will have hand out copies of the state hunting regulations. Get a copy and look at the legal guns and ammunation. The varmint bullets are probably not legal for deer hunting. The 100 grain bullets will be legal. That should put an end to the conversation.

[turmech]

May get my chops busted but to me .243 is the absolute min for deer. I would only use it with min 100gr jacketed bullets. And non of them would have any sort of plastic tip.

I know many shooters love them. I kink of think of them in the same way as a 410 shotgun for upland hunting. They are best for experts who will make perfect shots or pass.

My 3 sons all have hunted with them when that was all the recoil they could handle. We killed plenty of deer with them. I have always loaded 100 Sierra Pro hunter bullets. Most of there shots were at less than 50 yards. With these loads a complete pass through of the bullets only happened approx 50% of the time. All the shots they made were decent shots. And we found the deer but tracking with out an exit wound is not my favorite thing.

[Monkymate]

I will start with I have absolutely no experience with this caliber or weight of bullet.

I hunt with a 308 using 168gr Amax bullets at about 2500 FPS. I know this is NOT designed as a medium sized game bullet. It is a target/varmint bullet.

I ONLY shoot broadside shots through the lungs (I like eating the heart) and I am a meat hunter so most shots are at 120-140lb does and I strip the deer clean and process it myself. Neck and shoulder shots are a no-go for me due to wasting meat. Most shots are under 200 yards.

Now the results after using this combo for about 15 deer is a 1" entrance hole with a fist sized hole out the other side. No deer has traveled more than 15-20 yards after being shot. Most just dropped right there. Blood trail is massive. I have had one fragment go past the diaphragm and nick the stomach.

I am very pleased with this combo that is not supposed to work. It works well for me with my parameters.

Again this is only my experience. If he is a great shot on varmints and can place his shot right where he wants it then it will most likely work. Is it the best...no.

Will he have to wait for the shots that will work vice just raising up the gun and blasting like many hunters I know... Yes.

Will he have a bad experience and have to trail one and lose it ....Most likely.

People have been killing deer and other medium sized game with .22LR for many years. Is it ethical and clean? Depends on who is behind the gun and where you shoot. An old guy in SC I knew only used that combo with head shots inside 75 yards. Never knew him to miss. The deadliest hunter is the one that uses one gun and one load and knows it like the back of his hand.

Since he will read stories like this on the web you might want to tell him this also. I would choose a bullet in the 100 grain also. Doesn't mean it can't be a varmint bullet though.

[jmort]

.243 with a Nosler Partition will kill any animal in the lower 48 except. May not be the best choice for big stuff, but for deer, it will work real good and not just for neck shots. Not sure why there would be any question about this?

[oneokie]

Another vote for a heavier bullet for hunting deer.

I have personally seen what a factory loaded 30-06 Remington 125gr. PSP does to a 70lb deer at 40 yds. Sure it killed the deer, but there was appx. 30% of the meat that had to be discarded.

[Jim]

Hurricane, VA F&G dictates that the bullet CALIBER must be .23 or larger for deer hunting. Nothing is specified about bullet weight.

Monkeymate, it's not so much the TYPE of bullet that concerns me as the weight. I know for a fact that deer can be killed with calibers as small as .17 if placement is perfect.

Jmortimer, the question was brought up because he wants to hunt deer with 55 gr. bullets.

I'm trying to convince Scotty that he needs to hit the deer with something that will park it. I just don't think it's right to take a chance and injure the deer and it run off and suffer a slow death. If you're gonna kill a deer, KILL it and do it quickly.

This conversation between Scotty and I started because he knows a man that has (illegally) shot many deer with a .223. When I backed him up in a corner, he admitted the man had lost a few.

I dunno, maybe it's me. I'm of the opinion that if you're gonna kill something, use enough gun and get the job done as quickly and humanely as possible. I have a problem with taking an animal's life and the meat going to waste. I also think it's kinda' stupid to set yourself up for a half night of tracking through mountainous territory.

[Roosters]

If he is good with the gun (He hasn’t had it long) it’s not the best choice but it will do the job. A well placed shot is what it takes . A shot with a 300 mag in the lower leg and you gona have a bad day and a deer to go off and die a slow death. Guess what I’m saying how good can he shoot the gun.
With the smaller boolit the bad shot zone gets a lot bigger.

[turmech]

To add to my previous post.

Certainly the 243 can kill a deer, in fact as other said a 22 or 17 can. For me it is more than killing it is recovering the animal. Many areas I hunt are thick or difficult to pass marsh land. I want to put the deer down quick. Many deer just seem to have the will to live. I require an exit wound so if the deer does not DRT I can find him. When tracking through bull briars or a salt marsh the bigger the better blood trail.

My experiences with the 243 on more than one occasion a rib on the opposite side was enough to prevent pass through. These deer did not go very far but in my area they don't always need to go far to complicate things.

[jmort]

"Jmortimer, the question was brought up because he wants to hunt deer with 55 gr. bullets."
Sorry to waste time, missed that. Obviously he would want 95 grain plus.

[slim1836]

Jim,

Let your friend know that you are guiding him in a legal and resposible manner. Handling and hunting with weapons should be done in a mature way, not just picking up a rifle and bullets and off we go. That's why game wardens are necessary. Any infractions may result in his right to bear arms being revoked.

Jim, I believe you have done a great job in mentoring the youth in your neck of the woods, keep it up. Ultimately, final decisions will be made by the individual, and they will either seek the rewards or suffer the consiquences.

Just my 2 cents,

Slim

[bubba15301]

lightest bullet i would use in a 243 would be a 85 grain nosler partition

[429421Cowboy]

I too think a heavier bullet is always better for deer. In the many deer i have guided people on, i have seen times where even a 100 gr .243 bullet seems a little light, especially if you don't pick your shot just right. While plenty of deer get killed with varmint bullets in calibers like .22-250 and .223, many more are wounded as well. I prefer deer to hit the ground and a blood trail to be measured in inches. That means using the higher end of the power/weight scale and not having to worry, this also ensures a better blood trail if they do happen to run a ways.
I feel, as others have already mentioned, that the Nosler Partion is a bullet that makes the .243 punch outside of it's weight class, and gives an extra degree of certanty on tough angles and such.
If he still wants the bang-flop results of a varmint bullet, you guys may want to look at the .243 Berger hunting bullets, which are still constructed to give fast kills, but weigh much more than the .55 gr varmint pills. Also the 55 grainers are short and fat, which even further reduces penetration over a heavier, thus longer bullet.
An other excelent bullet that is cheaper than the two listed above, is the Speer 100 gr boattail softpoint, it will handle any deer with the right shot, and is common and easy to load for.
Good luck gentlemen!

[reloader28]

95gr-100gr bullets and the 243 is the most perfect deer combo there is.
We've used it for years and taken deer out well past 300yds with instantadrop kills.
These aint little Texas deer either. We have bucks up to 300lbs here.

Leave the little varmint bullets for varmints and use the big ones for deer/antalope.

[runfiverun]

deer are not varmints.
the bullets are constructed differently.
using varmint bulets on deer would be like using a yugo to knock down a brick wall.
stop being an idiot.
there's 4 feel free to use any one or all of them.

[Jim]

Run, my young friend is YOUNG, he's not an idiot. He's simply not familiar with all the ramifications of doing what he asked about.

[Roosters]

Jim if you were planning on using this thread to try to sway his choice, then run’s post should be left alone . It would be another education on how forums work, got to take the bad with the good advice and use your own judgment for what is best.

Roosters

[dk17hmr]

Im a fan of small caliber, high velocity, low recoiling rounds for "small" big game. I however have shot 55gr out of a 6x45 AR15 that did not get more than flesh wound. This is the result of head shot coyote I killed a couple years ago in the neighborhood of 275 yards. The head shot didnt do the trick, it was still alive so I put one behind the shoulder.

Graphic pic dont click if you dont want to see blood
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/IMG_0618.jpg

That was hit with a 55gr Nosler going about 2000fps (when it got to the target).....just think the 243 Winchester is going to hit with about 1000 fps more velocity and your target is going to be closer (assuming). I would reconsider a 55gr 243/6mm on anything I wanted to eat, step up to 85-100gr and your golden.

[southpaw]

I think the bases have been pretty well covered on why not to use a varmit bullet on anything but paper or a varmit. I would just like to add one to the list of good bullets, the barnes 85gr. tsx. I am not much of a fan of the 243 for deer but one of my friends uses them in his and has had plenty of exit holes. Cost is about the same as the partitions and they retain 100% of their weight.

Jerry Jr.

[Jim]

Jim if you were planning on using this thread to try to sway his choice, then run’s post should be left alone . It would be another education on how forums work, got to take the bad with the good advice and use your own judgment for what is best.

Roosters

Fair enough. I retracted my request.

[runfiverun]

jim:
idiot was maybe too strong of a word, it's just how i talk.
i didn't call him or you one. [i used the term being an idiot] as in using the hammer to put screws in the wall is.
the wrong tool for the job type thing.
i apologize if you took it the wrong way or i typed it incorrectly.
Lamar.

the way i meant it was as an opening to further his education in how a bullet is constructed and why varmint bullets work the way they do and why penetration from a bullet works the way it does.
i have studied bullet construction a lot and make my own jaxketed bullets and have shot a lot of animals with bullets i made myself.
learning what makes one bullet do what it does while one made from the exact same components will react differently on the same targets giving completly different results in performance.
the bullet factory's have put in the same work and made the same notes as i have i am sure.
they don't sell varmint bullets and deer bullets in the same box.
it's not because they would then only be able to sell you one box of bullets.
it's because they work differently.
what makes a good deer bullet is exactly what makes a bad varmint bullet.
and viseversa.

[Roosters]

Fair enough. I retracted my request.


Good call Jim.

And Run I don't disagree with what you said in either post. That's just the way it works.

[runfiverun]

jim:
i posted another response, but it went somewhere else.
any way i didn't call you or him an idiot, i was using that as an analogy to open the door to further discussion with him if he wanted to be a bit stubborn about it.
acting an idiot is doing stuff like using the yugo to try and knock down the brick wall.
if you took it another way i apologize.
i mistyped my intentions.

[the yugo would probably be fine for deer however]
any way the post i typed [before it went wherever] delved into bullet construction.
but that has mostly allready been covered.
again i apologize.
Lamar
okay then.... it suddenly appeared from nowhere.

[EMC45]

I would go with a cup and core constructed bullet or "partition" or "A Frame". By Sierra, Speer or Nosler in 100gr. It will do the job. Shot placement is key though.

[crabo]

I shot a nice buck in North Dakota with a .280 Nosler Ballistic tip. He dropped immediately. As I walked up to him, he jumped up and took off. I hit him again and he dropped like a rock.

At this point I was bragging to my brother in law about my shooting ability, and the buck jumped up again and as he ran into the rushes, I hit him again. At this point I was starting to freak. I followed him into the reeds and found him laying down. I shot him in the neck, and that was it.

When I cleaned him, not one of the bullets had penetrated the ribcage. They had all blown up and did a lot of tissue damage, but no penetration. All of the shots were well placed hits.

When I got back home I called Nosler. They asked for the lot number on the box. It was from the earlier run when the ballistic tip was designed for target shooting and not hunting. Evidently, people were using the bullet for hunting because they were so accurate. They toughened up the jacket and started selling them as a hunting bullet. I bought them from a gun store that was closing out a lot of bullets they weren't selling.

They had me send them the box with the unloaded bullets and sent me a new, unopened box. That was 18- 20 years ago and my BIL still calls me "The Texas Meat Grinder" at times.

Use the right bullet for the job. You shouldn't be hunting if you aren't willing to use the right tools.

[Grandpas50AE]

Jim, you're doing the right thing by looking for good ways to explain the dilemma to your young friend. Like many have posted already, it isn't as much about weight as it is construction. The lighter bullets for a given caliber are usually constructed to deform or come apart on much smaller and lighter animals than deer which makes them a poor choice for deer. One exception would be the Barnes-X solid copper bullets which are very sturdy. My wife has reliably taken deer with her .223 using the bonded core 65 gr. bullets I swage, but for .243 I doubt anyone makes a sturdily constructed bullets in that weight, so it is a much better choice to use a bullet that is, such as the Nosler Partition in 85 or 100 gr. configuration. The .243 is probably one of the most under-rated whitetail deer cartridges there is, and I have had many friends take a lot of mulies and whitetails using it, but they always use a bullet of good enough construction to get the penetration and quick kill the animal deserves.

[Tazman1602]

In the 'Our Town' section, I posted about a young man that I'm helping. He recently bought a Mossberg bolt in .243. He bought it primarily as a varmint rifle with the intent to shoot 55 gr. bullets.

He asked about killing deer with it and I told him that would be no problem as he could simply and easily load 100 gr. or so and simply readjust the scope right before deer season opens.

I showed him several videos on the Barnes Varmint Grenades and the Nosler Varmegeddon bullets. Then he tells me he wants to kill deer with these varmint loads. I tried to discourage him from using such bullets for deer, telling him I thought there was much too high a probability of non lethal wounds and the deer running off and not being found.

I'd like to get some feedback from the hunting group here. Am I wrong in trying to steer him toward the heavier bullets or do I just not know what I'm talking about?

He'll be back over here in a few days and I'm hoping for a good list of responses for him to read through. I'd 'preciate it if y'all would clear this up for him and me.

Thanks, guys.

Jim no matter what's been said here some good and some bad, a .243 with the PROPER load will dump even some of the largest white tails in their tracks. I'm talking from experience here and I'd be glad to post pictures of the three mounts in my living room and the two dozen or so sets of antlers my wife and I have both shot over the years with the. 243's we have.

The kicker is that you MUST use the right projectile at the right speed. All of our big deer have been dropped by the use of Barnes bullets......at whom I'm particularly peeved as they stopped making the 95 grain X bullets we've used for years and are only making those stupid tipped 85 grain bullets for. 243 now.

I've written Barnes and their response was the new 85 grain tipped ( tsx) bullets would be just as effective as the old 95 grain X bullets were.

Tell your young friend that in spite of my love for our. 243's and Barnes bullets that as a responsible hunter I just can't use that light a bullet and chance wounding an animal.

Last year we hunted with. 308 and. 444, if anyone has any suggestions based on real world experience with deer and. 243 feel free to PM me. I'm still trying to decide if I should buy some Hornady 95 grain sst's or just stick with the big stuff.

That being said, as far as the varmint bullets go, I would never EVER use those on large game! They are in the most basic of explanations made to explode on contact. On soft skin smaller game this is exactly what you want, but on deer sized game you need a projectile that will expand to twice it's size and continue to penetrate assuring a clean, quick kill.

On two of the nice 8-points we've gotten I've recovered the 95 grain X bullets just under the skin on the off side and even after traveling all the way through the body they weighed 91 and 92 grains respectively.

Hope this helps you out man!

Art

[Von Dingo]

A few year ago, someone I know was using a 25-06 with some varmint bullets for deer hunting, loaded by a friend of his. A doe ended up getting wounded to death, making a lot of hamburger in the process. He swore off the 25-06, got a 7 MM Mag...

I believe you should pick the slug to perform for the not perfect shot, you owe it to the animal.

[helice]

I must agree with R5R. Deer are not varmints and they should not be treated as such. Deer are noble animals and fine meat. They should be hunted with respect and harvested as humanely as possible.
I have no doubts that your young friend's 243 is capable of a successful harvest. The 243 has proven itself over the years. However, the success of the 243 is directly linked to the availability of quality projectiles designed for the purpose. I have great confidence in my 6mm Remington with the proper bullet.
I wish you success as you help this young hunter to expand his thinking and become a credit to our sport.

[NSP64]

Jim, some kids have a different learning curve. I would take him out and help him get a deer with it. He would then have to field dress it. When he got done with the soup that was the organs, he might be a little more receptive to friendly advise.

I took the boy out bow hunting once and advised him on 'waiting for the shot'
and not to shoot unless it was a good angle. He made a poor choice and when field dressing it he discovered why you shouldn't take a 'Texas heart shot'

He waits for the right shot now and has let deer pass by that dont give a good shot.

[UBER7MM]

Jim,

As others have stated, varmint "j" word bullets aren't designed to penetrate a large animal for an ethical kill. The hunter is responsible to put down his prey as quickly and efficiently as possible in a sportmen (sportperson) like manner. Use a big game bullet for big game and a varmint bullet for varmints. Please quote me to your young friend.

Good ethical hunting,

[alrighty]

I can't remember the quote from Boddington in his book perfect shot.It simply states that you can get by hunting game with a smaller caliber but not an incorrect bullet.A .243 Win will take any deer with the proper shot placement and the right bullet.I strongly suggest as others either the Nosler partition or the Barnes TTSX.
I also made the mistake of using a .25-06 WITH THE WRONG BULLET years ago.I lost the deer and didn't carry that rifle again for years.It was a light weight 87 grain thin jacketed , plastic tipped varmint bullet.I am sure your young friend will like that feeling no more than I did.
Nothing wrong with light bullets , as long as they are designed for use on deer.

[Goatwhiskers]

An awful lot of good advice for your young friend here. A couple of guys around here swear by the .243 with 80 and 85gr bullets, but as has been said, bullet construction is paramount. I own one but haven't used it for deer yet. My favorite is my 30/40AI using a Hornady 180RN at only 2200fps. Deer drops virtually in its tracks, very minimal meat damage. Fixin' to start on cast LFN 170gr PP. This fall I'll be using a .357Max with a 190gr LFN cast PP or GC at around 2000fps. Shock effect is one thing, a fast moving light constructed bullet that does great tissue damage is another. Can you tell that I'm anti-magnum with those "super performance" bullets? It takes time, teach the young man, he'll learn. GW

[woody1]

Jim, As many others have said, in a word tell your friend DON'T. I've killed a truckload of deer and two elk with a .243. I use two bullets, both 100 grain, the Hornady 100 gr. spire point and Nosler's 100 gr. partition. I don't recall ever finding one of my bullets in a deer although I do recall one that a friend shot with a .243 that the bullet was just under the skin on the opposite side. It was not one of the bullets I use nor was it 100 grains.
Of the three Nosler partition bullets in elk, one did not pass through because it...I guess actually it did because I found it high in the leg on the opposite side.
My point here is the same as others have said, use the right bullet. I know the two I use just plain work.

'Nother story. I shot a buck with my .270 using a "varmint" bullet. YUP, it died but it wasn't pretty and it took 3 shots to complete the job. I had loaded down some 100 grain bullets to use, thinking they wouldn't be so explosive and would do well at short range. Long story short, I mixed up the loads with higher velocity rounds and shot the deer at about 30 yards. Twice, and neither bullet exited. It still took another shot to quickly finish him. Yeah, if I'd have shot him in the lungs with the first bullet he'd prob'ly have flopped right there but the bullet hit his shoulder and didn't penetrate.
Again, tell your young friend to use the correct bullet. If it's a matter of money, heck, let me know and I'll send you some bullets. I'm pretty sure I've got some sittin' around lookin' for work! Regards, Woody

[lonewelder]

Tell him to contact the bullet manufac. for recommended deer bullets.They should be able to explain it.Good luck,and thanks for helping get a new hunter started.

[Idaho Mule]

Jim, first off, thank uou for teaching and mentoring the next generation. That said, I believe the 243 to be a viable deer cartridge. Please mentor your young charge to use a 95+ grn GAME designed bullet, keep shots inside of 200 yds., put the bullet in the right spot and it, and he, will do well. Ido not own a 243 personally, but have packed a few elk, and lots of deer that have been killed by them. Sounds like the 32-20 thread, don't it??

[waksupi]

If I had my druthers, and if they are available, I would put in the heaviest round nose bullet I could find.

[btroj]

If he wants to go light and fast get him some Barnex X bullets. They will penetrate like no tomorrow and hold up to the impact.

I personally would use either an X bullet or a 100 gr bullet made for deer.

Having been young once, unlike some here, I remember the fascination with speed and energy. Lucky for me I grew out of the stage, it just took me a decade or so.

[waksupi]

Having been young once, unlike some here, I remember the fascination with speed and energy. Lucky for me I grew out of the stage, it just took me a decade or so.

Thank God that stage is behind me!

[Blammer]

Jim, now is the perfect time to discuss bullet construction with him.

He probably may know nothing of it. Use this as an opportunity to talk about it.

Grab a Sierra reloading manual, in it is a section telling about the bullet construction of several types of its projectiles. HAVE HIM READ IT!

Then discuss some more. I suspect if you ask the right questions, you'll lead him in the right direction.

Questions I would be considering are; "You want to kill your animal quickly and recover it right?" "Have you ever blood trailed an animal for a mile? Do you want to?" "Ever see an animal die a slow painful death?" (maybe not good questions but just what I could come up with at the spur of the moment) The object is to get him to THINK, AFTER he has gained some information. I suspect then that he'll make a better informed decision.

Please keep us informed as to his choice, I would like to know.

I have shot a LOT of 243 projectiles, all wts and sizes at various objects and animals. If you have any particular questions on a projectile, PM me.

[btroj]

Thank God that stage is behind me!

Exactly!

[waksupi]

Ya know Jim, one of the best things to teach him, is Tracking, 101.

[runfiverun]

even some of the factory rounds are too frangable the cxp-11 from winchester in the 270 win are too soft.
my brother uses them [well he did] after having fragments everywhere in a few deer he won't use them anymore.
my prompting and him seeing the differece between what i use and what he bought on actual animals really was eye opening for him.
you would never think a deer could go that far with nothing inside him,but two hours and over a mile later i found his second and final one with that ammo.

[leftiye]

I've got a 6mm Ackley improved. It WILL evaporate bullets that hit twigs before reaching a deer. The .243 is quite a bit slower, but may still have that problem. That said a 85 grain Speer bonded core at 200 yds expands perfectly and either passes through or ends up just under the skin on the far side. I've had 100 grain Noslers fail to expand at forty yards with lung shots. These are both older bullets. Will drop a deer in its tracks, but can do some wierd things. I've had surface wounds on jackrabbits at 40 yards (hip/leg disapeared, rabbit still alive) with 70 grain Sierras.

[Jim]

Ya know Jim, one of the best things to teach him, is Tracking, 101.

God only knows how much I wish I could. Kinda' tough for a half crippled ol' man to traverse 30 to 45 degree slopes littered with stones and leaves. Sometimes, it's tough just walkin' slopes when I'm out with my buddies an' the dogs tryin' to find the tree at night. Tryin' to follow a blood trail up or down a ravine wall that near 'bout requires rope is for someone else to teach him. I just can't do it anymore.

I'm gonna stick to what I know and CAN do which is workin' up a decent load for a rifle and makin' it poke little holes in paper that are real close together. Then I'm gonna work with him on stuff like breathing control, trigger control, etc..

I'm happy to do what I can and not ashamed to admit what I can't or don't know how to do.

[chickenstripe]

I understand we'retalking about the ability of a 243 w/ 55gr bullets having the ability to kill a deer cleanly.....
However, if I remember correctly, VA hunting regulations required 25cal or larger for deer.
Unless this has changed recently.

[Blammer]

here's the website

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/regulations/general.asp#legal-use

.23 cal or larger

[Catsmith]

Alot of good reasons already taken. 100gr soft point is deadly. Trust me.

[Jeffrey]

Can he hit a thrown baseball with a bat? Probably. A pingpong ball off a table with a chopstick? Sure! How about a thrown baseball with a chopstick? Probably not. Same thing as shooting a deer with a varmint bullet. Take a look at the "Deer hunting with a 32-20 thread ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=164962 ) for some opinions on hunting deer with an inappropriate boolit / bullet.

[PS Paul]

Maybe .32-20??:kidding:

[PS Paul]

Sorry, Jim. I couldn't resist!! LOL!!
Now, to your post:
Perhaps rather than having us all TELL him, you could set up some type of "demonstration" with a varmint versus penetrating/deer-type round in some sort of test medium? Maybe shoot into jugs of water in a row to show explosive varmint round exploding on first jug while the more appropriate deer round goes into two or three jugs? Visual demonstrations have a lor of impact on kids nowadays with youtube and all...... Just a thought?

[Jim]

:goodpost:

That's not a bad idea, PS! I'm going to help him order some heavy weights for deer as well as some varmint bullets, so we'll have some of each. When we get the loads worked up, I think I'll do exactly what you suggested. If I can figure out some media that's readily available and photographable, I'll take pics of both results and post 'em.

It'll be a while before we get to it, so be patient.

Thanks for that suggestion!

[PS Paul]

You're welcome, Jim. I'm glad I actually came up with something useful!!

Off topic: I showed my wife and kids your post on "Strategic Placement". That photo was the hit of the evening last night!! They thought by the title I was going to show something military, but they were bowled over by "adorable"!! LOL!!

[ammohead]

Turmech+1. The 243 is an experts cartridge for deer not a beginners load. Surely NOT with varmint bullets. That is why they are called varmint bullets...duh. They are specifically designed to explode on impact so that they do not ricochet beyond the target. THEY ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR PENETRATION OF ANY ANIMAL MUCH LESS A DEER. They will dispatch a coyote easily but a song dog is 28lbs soaking wet.

This young man needs to understand that as hunters we must make ethical decisions based on fact and do the right thing. Save the experiments for coyotes.

[429421Cowboy]

Something else i realised yesterday which really put it into perspective for me. We have an amazing little Border Collie that is one year old now and weighs 35 pounds, which makes her average coyote size and build. I measured yesterday, and she is 8" wide at the shoulders, which i would say is the same for a coyote.
Consider that alot of the time a varmint bullet will not exit a coyote, so we are talking penetration that is >8" there! Also we must consider the much more resistance encountered in even a small deer, there is simply far larger muscle and bone structure in a deer than a coyote. I am not sure if i am the only one, but for some reason that really made me realise just how bad an idea it is, and i was against it to begin with.
I hope my rambling makes sense to more than just me.

[Hardcast416taylor]

The Nosler 6MM/.243 Ballistic Tip weighing 95 gr. that I load for a friend so his Grandson can use an H&R Handi-Rifle has accounted for 2 feral pigs, 2 Mouflon sheep and 2 whitetail deer. All shots were under 100 yds. and all animals fell at a single shot each.Robert

[Von Dingo]

429421Cowboy, the point you make is what I was getting at when referencing the 25-06 with the varmint bullets, that wounded the small doe to death. Many crater wounds, very ugly.

I was using 120 gr Ballistic Tip's, in the .260 Rem, because they were super accurate. Tagged three deer, with them, literally perfect broadside shots up to 150 yards, feet flipping into the air and down. Heart and lungs were pudding, one slug penetrated the off side ribs but not hide, other two bruised the inner off side ribs. Changed to the 129 gr Hornady Interlock, in case the shot angle wasn't perfect. Groups went from fitting under a twenty five cent piece with the BT, to little bigger than a half dollar piece. I can live with that for the sake of the slug passing through.