Yet Another Rolling Block Thread...

[THerbert]

I picked up a #1 yesterday from a gentleman that bought it at auction, and thought that he had a 50-70. I looked at it several months ago, and I guess that he'd never really looked at the hole in the end of the barrel, or didn't know what a 50-70 was, because the bore was about .200" short of 50...

Anyway, I saw it again on the local "guns for sale" site, and sent him an email asking if he was ready to sell it for what I was willing to pay for it, and he decided he was. I brought it home, and started taking it apart last night for cleaning, and here's what I found:

The barrel is a cut-down barrel from an '03 Springfield, made at the Springfield Armory in March of 1907. I know it's from an '03, not an '03A3, because it has the holes in the barrel for the original '03 rear sight (the '03A3 rear sight is mounted on the rear of the receiver). It appears to have been rechambered for 30-30, but I'd have to cast it to find out for sure.

The forearm is the original military forearm, cut off about 2" in front of the rear barrel band, and has had the ramrod/cleaning rod channel partially plugged with a piece of wood. As you might imagine, it rattles around quite a bit on that much-smaller diameter barrel. The buttstock appears to be original, and still has the steel buttplate on it, and large "7" cartouche on the left side.

It was very grungy inside, so I took it all apart, and have the parts soaking in mineral spirits to dissolve all the old oil and powder fouling. The Remington lettering is still faintly visible on the top tang of the receiver.

Now comes the fun part -- deciding what to do with it! I've always wanted a .50 caliber cartridge rifle. I already have an original Trapdoor and a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70, so I don't really feel the need for another rifle in that caliber. I like the idea of a 50-70, and a 38-55 would be cool, too. I've never built a rifle from scratch before, so this is going to be quite a project for me.

So what say you, guys? A 50-70? 50-90? 38-55? Oh, yeah, it needs to be a black-powder caliber.

[pietro]

The .38-55 does it for me.


:bigsmyl2:


.

[BCRider]

I'm a fairly new rolling block owner as well. From looking around it appears that one wants to keep the chamber pressure down to around 26K psi or less on the rolling block actions. So to some extent this should guide you in your choice. Mind you if you'll be shooting honest to gosh BP loads out of it then you should be fine with any of the choices I would think since the BP should limit the peak pressure.

For simple target shooting I've gone with .38-55 for a couple of reasons. First is that I found that some stout .45-70 loads even from a heavy Sharpes tends to beat up the shoulder a little. Enough that a longer day of fun would leave me with a somewhat shocky shoulder. The .38-55 doesn't do that. I shot 25 to 30 rounds during a day of sighting in and had no ill effects at all. In fact I would have gone for another 25 happily if I had more ammo with me. So I'd have to say that for me the .38-55 is the perfect cartridge. Perhaps I'll change my tune once I start loading them with real black powder. But for the time being I'm playing with smokeless pushed to around 1400fps or a little better.

[lkydvl]

38-50 Rem- Hep made from necked up 30-40 Krag

[drcook]

why not a 40-82 Crossno ? This is a 40-65 case with .300 added to the neck giving a bit more powder room.

or better yet, go back to an original roller chambering, the 44-77

or

a 44-100 straight ?

[THerbert]

I tend to lean toward big-bore rifles.

The .44-77 is interesting...

[drcook]

the 44-100 straight is also an original remington chambering.

check this site out, it has some pictures of the 44's. Board member Don McD. is campaigning a 44-77 and having some good results with it, another acquaintance is running a 44-90.

http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/view_album.php?set_albumName=Moulds-etc&page=5

this is what an original 44-100 roller looked like

http://www.cabelas.com/antiques-remington-long-range-creedmoor-in-44-100-1.shtml

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/the-galleries/the-new-prosperity/case-46-creedmoor,-sea-girt-and-the-national-matches-plinky-topperwein/remington-creedmoor-long-range-rifle.aspx

here is a good discussion about 44's

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15544

and another

http://historicshooting.com/mybb/thread-191.html

[drcook]

check this site out to see what can be done with an old roller action

http://hardcastlecustommachine.com/

[bob208]

i have a rolling block in .50-70 it is a nice shooter. it does have the womp on target too.

[TCLouis]

38-55 with .375" bore.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Therbert. That old Remington has possibilities! You said you always wanted a .50-70? Thats not a bad caliber...But something caught my eye in your post...you said it has a large 7 cartouche...Now that old roller just begs to be re-created as Custer's .50-70 sporting rifle!

[THerbert]

I'll have to see if I can bring back the buttstock to usable condition. It seems solid, but the wrist area is really oil-soaked, to the point where it is black over the entire area between the tangs.

I'll take a couple of pictures of it tonight. It will be interesting to see if I can get that cartouche to photograph. Maybe in evening sun the contrast will be good enough.

[THerbert]

If I elect to go with the .50-70 (which I'm getting closer to doing), who to get a barrel from? Badger seem to be unavailable, Green Mountain's .50 barrels are .508" not .510". Another maker? Pac-Nor, maybe?

[MikeS]

I could be wrong, but if Green Mountain's barrels are .508 rather than .510, and you're building a rifle that you're only going to be shooting your own reloads, using boolits you cast for it yourself, why not use one of their barrels, and just get sizing dies that are the proper size (.509?) for the barrel? I mean .002 isn't that big of a difference, and on a bore that large I don't see where it would be a big problem. As long as you know the size of the bore you can custom tailor your rounds to your rifle.

[THerbert]

I could be wrong, but if Green Mountain's barrels are .508 rather than .510, and you're building a rifle that you're only going to be shooting your own reloads, using boolits you cast for it yourself, why not use one of their barrels, and just get sizing dies that are the proper size (.509?) for the barrel? I mean .002 isn't that big of a difference, and on a bore that large I don't see where it would be a big problem. As long as you know the size of the bore you can custom tailor your rounds to your rifle.

You're correct, as far as it goes -- I could just size the bullets at .510", and shoot them through the .508" barrel. The problem comes in when reloading -- according to a couple of articles I've found by Mike Venturino, backed up by data by Lyman, the seating and expander dies are made to deal with the now standard diameter of .512" bullets (for a .510" barrel). It's possible that I'm borrowing trouble, but I'm worried that the sizing dies may not bring the size of a piece of brass down far enough to hold a .510" bullet securely, and that the seating die may not crimp a .510" bullet. By the time I've finished this rifle, I'm going to have quite a bit of money in it, and I'd rather not have to spend even more on a custom set of dies, just because I didn't take the time to find a barrel that's bored to standard diameter.

[MikeS]

Actually, if it's currently chambered for 30-30 you might want to go with the 38-55 as it uses the same size head, so you won't have to mess with either making, or trying to find a new extractor. Being that the 30-30 is a smokeless cartridge, it's possible that it's chambered not for 30-30, but rather 30-40 which started out as a black powder cartridge. If that's the case, you might even want to consider leaving it chambered as it is. If you can clean the bore good, and if the outside of the barrel isn't in bad shape, you could just clean it up real good, get the barrel/action refinished, and go from there. It might not be a big bore, but it would be unique.

[skeettx]

Stay with 30-30 and check the gun for accuracy
The 311291 bullet is a winner
Good energy and trajectory from this bullet
and the barrrel is good steel
Mike

[THerbert]

Well, there's an easy way to find out... I've got the CerroSafe sitting on the floor right next to my chair, here, and I'm not doing anything particularly useful. Guess I'll go cast the chamber.

[THerbert]

No luck. I can't get the casting alloy to give up its hold on the chamber after being poured. I've melted it out, and now I guess I'll have to put some more time in cleaning the chamber area, then try again.

[THerbert]

Well, after spending time cleaning the chamber, I've both found out what it is, and found it to be unusable in its present form. While shining a flashlight into the chamber from the breech end, I discovered big gouges in the chamber at about the 5 and 7 o'clock positions, like someone had been banging around in there with a screwdriver or chisel. Maybe someone trying to get a stuck case without a head out of the chamber?

I did do some measuring of the chamber, and it does appear to be a 30-40 Krag -- the rough dimensions pretty much match.

[MikeS]

Depending on how bad the gouges are, you might be able to turn it in one turn, then run a chambering reamer in it to clean it up. I had a Ruger #3 in 30-40 and it was a nice gun to shoot. Of course that depends on the condition of the rest of the barrel. If you're going to rebarrel it, fine a cartridge that uses the 30-40 head so you can use the extractor as it is.

[THerbert]

The only "period" cartridge that I can find that uses the same case head diameter, and so could use the same extractor is the .405 Winchester.

As long as I go to a larger-diameter cartridge, it seems that the existing extractor could be formed by modifying the current one, rather than having to make or replace it.

[EdZ KG6UTS]

I tend to lean toward big-bore rifles.

The .44-77 is interesting...

.44-77, really close to my .43 Spanish. The Spanish caliber can't compete in official BPCR but it is fun to shoot.

EdZ KG6UTS
San Diego/Borrego Springs

[drcook]

The only "period" cartridge that I can find that uses the same case head diameter, and so could use the same extractor is the .405 Winchester.

Sounds like a candidate for a 40-72 (which uses the .405 brass as is.) Reamers are available for this. Couple with a relatively fast twist barrel and it would make a great BPCR rifle.

I saw one this weekend at our local shoot. A 1901 had the top octagoned. The wood was from Treebone and he used a pistol grip stock and simply set the straight tang in.

He fabricated a filler out of matching walnut and filled in the cut in the pistol grip. It was a pretty dang nice rifle.

[Freischütz]

If you like the 30/40 case and would prefer a larger caliber, consider necking the 30/40 up to 35 cal. That gives you a cartridge like the 35 Win but avoids the longer brass required for the 35 and 405 WCF.

[drcook]

Unfortunately if Mr Herbert there decided he wanted to try BPCR matches and go for score, he will need a cartridge that is "approved", a wildcatted 35 most likely will be DQ'd for score. He could shoot it yes, but it wouldn't count. There has to be a cartridge that is the basis of the chambering.

The 40-72 was a real chambering so the .405 brass can be used. IIRC the .405 brass was made with a bigger rim and other slightly tweaked dimensions than the 40-72 so it couldn't be chambered in a rifle designed for black powder

[THerbert]

Thanks to the good graces of one of our fellow forum members, I've picked up a barely used (<300 rounds) 29", half-octagon, half-round .50-70 barrel, with custom matching forend. It came off of exactly the action I have -- a #1 Military Blackpowder action with rotary extractor.

I think I'm going to try to make the butt stock myself, from a blank. The rolling block action has to be one the easiest to inlet blanks there is, so it will be a good place to start. And, since I have the original to look at, I think I have a good chance of doing it well.

[THerbert]

I pulled all of the parts out of the soak in mineral spirits this afternoon, and cleaned them off with 0000 steel wool and oil. In so doing, I noticed that there seemed to be a lot more parts there than I remembered from looking at the exploded photos on RollingBlockParts.com.

It seems that this rifle has the "safety" that causes the hammer to fall back to half-cock when the breech block is put in battery after loading. This leads me to believe that it started life as a New York State militia rifle. So, with the .50-70 barrel, I'm kind of returning it to its original configuration.

[Ed in North Texas]

I pulled all of the parts out of the soak in mineral spirits this afternoon, and cleaned them off with 0000 steel wool and oil. In so doing, I noticed that there seemed to be a lot more parts there than I remembered from looking at the exploded photos on RollingBlockParts.com.

It seems that this rifle has the "safety" that causes the hammer to fall back to half-cock when the breech block is put in battery after loading. This leads me to believe that it started life as a New York State militia rifle. So, with the .50-70 barrel, I'm kind of returning it to its original configuration.

The 1871 model, with the half-cock "safety", was produced in caliber .50-70 by Remington for the NY State Militia contract and also under contract by Springfield Armory for the US Army. It was produced in other calibers for a number of countries, including Denmark, Spain, France, etc. Does this rifle have the distinctive tall NYSM hammer and shield "checkering" on both hammer and block, or the standard height hammer and metal checkering of the other 1871 models? I guess it doesn't have the US markings of the Springfield model on the receiver.

Just went back and re-read the first post about the barrel, so had to edit my response to point out that the model was made for a number of other countries.

Ed

[THerbert]

Ed, it does have a very tall hammer spur, and "checkering" in the shape of a shield on both the hammer spur and the rolling block spur.

Other than the Remington lettering on the top tang, it has no other markings on the action itself. The Springfield crest and date are not present on the right side of the action. I'll take some high-res photos when I get home tonight, and post them.

[THerbert]

Here are the photos of the action. My camera battery was dead when I got home last night, so I had to wait until I got up this morning to take them.http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_18906508933cec80d1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7160)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_18906508933e26ce9a.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7161)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_18906508933ef3065d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7162)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_18906508933fc1d669.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7163)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_1890650893406e9515.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=7164)

[Ed in North Texas]

That's a NY State Militia Model receiver, no doubt. Enjoy restoring it.

Ed

[smokemjoe]

Use the org. barrel stub if fitted right and sleeve a barrel all ready chambered.It can save you pile of money if you can do it yourself or a good friend with a lathe.

[no-horse]

tom,, you will love shooting a 50-70. it is a great cartridge

[Alan]

The only "period" cartridge that I can find that uses the same case head diameter, and so could use the same extractor is the .405 Winchester.

As long as I go to a larger-diameter cartridge, it seems that the existing extractor could be formed by modifying the current one, rather than having to make or replace it.

.35 Winchester. 250gr. bullet at 2100 fps. This is the cartridge the beautiful old Lyman #3589 (#358009) was designed for.