Why tumble lube before push thru sizing?

[gcsteve]

Lee says to tumble lube, size, then lube again. Why? They claim if you don't lube first you will lead your push through sizing die. Anybody try it without lubing first? I did (sizing about a hundred 230 grain .45 TL boolit to .454, and about 100 RCBS 200 grain SWC conventional groove to .452) and got no leading in my sizing dies. Anybody else skip the "pre-lube"? If so, did it work for you?

[cdet69]

I would be interested in this also. The only thing I noticed when sizing lubed vs. unlubed is the amount of force needed to go through the sizing die.

[randyrat]

When I size with a Lee type push thru sizer die I very seldom lube the boolits first....The reasoning to lube before; to lesson the force it takes and to limit any damage to your boolits from sizing....If I have to size more than a couple Ks I get rid of the mold.
Lubing before sizing is not always absolutely necessary- it can help- sometimes necessary

[Larry Gibson]

You can get away with not lubing if the bullets aren't sized much and/or the alloy is hard enough. If sizing too much w/o lube the grooves can be wiped away (swaged actually) and the bullet deformed if of softer alloy. Prelubing puts lube in the grooves and prevents the wiping away and maintains their integrety. Lubing also makes the bullets "size" easier. Then there is the leading issue; yes it is real and numerous members have leaded Lee sizers.

Additionally if using LLA and you don't follow Lee's directions then you've really no complaint if the sizer or the barrel leads up, eh? I size cast bullets and seat a lot of GC without using LLA but instead spray the bullets before sizing with Dillons case lube. I also use LLA on TL bullets I lube, let dry, size and lube again just as the directions say and I've yet to have a problem. Invariably the complaints with LLA comes from not following the directions for it's use.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

I always use two coats, but the best thing I ever did with any instructions that Lee ever produced for any of their products is simply feed the shredder with them.

Even if you follow Lee's directions, there's a much better way. See the "sticky" on the subject in this section for a simple process which is about a hundred times more satisfactory in EVERY aspect than straight liquid Alox. Recluse's method also cuts drying time to 15-20 minutes so that lubing/sizing/relubing is much faster and less painless, plus you can actually put two coats on there with out gunking up the whole works, which is difficult to do with the LLA straight unless you heat the boolits up quite a bit.

Gear

[gcsteve]

You can get away with not lubing if the bullets aren't sized much and/or the alloy is hard enough. If sizing too much w/o lube the grooves can be wiped away (swaged actually) and the bullet deformed if of softer alloy. Prelubing puts lube in the grooves and prevents the wiping away and maintains their integrety. Lubing also makes the bullets "size" easier. Then there is the leading issue; yes it is real and numerous members have leaded Lee sizers.

Additionally if using LLA and you don't follow Lee's directions then you've really no complaint if the sizer or the barrel leads up, eh? I size cast bullets and seat a lot of GC without using LLA but instead spray the bullets before sizing with Dillons case lube. I also use LLA on TL bullets I lube, let dry, size and lube again just as the directions say and I've yet to have a problem. Invariably the complaints with LLA comes from not following the directions for it's use.

Larry Gibson

I have no significant groove deformation. If I did, then I would say the sizing reduction is too much (get another mold closer to the size you need). How can lube on a .454 bullet protect the grooves when sizing down to .452? It can't, the lube can't shield the boolit from the size of the die constriction. If it could, the sizer wouldn't work very well, would it.

As for complaints. did I offer one? No. I just asked a question. I appreciate your input Larry, but whats up with the negativity?

Following Lee's directions just because "they say so" is silly, IMHO. I'll take the years of experience of the members here over Lee's advice every time. Your process works for you and that's great. Good for you. I'm not complaining, just looking to try something different.

[gcsteve]

Thanks Gear. I do use a variation of Recluse's formula, and it is far less messy than straight LLA.
Even less messy if you lube only after sizing, as the sizer doesn't get all goobed up. I'm going to watch for leading in the sizing die, but so far, so good.

[geargnasher]

Steve, if you're gunking up anything using Recluse lube, you're doing it wrong! Believe me, I know. I literally had to play a game with myself called "let's see how LITTLE lube we can possibly get by with and not lead the bore" before I realized how little lube it takes to do the job. If you can scrape your fingernail across a boolit nose and get a curl of dried lube under your nail, you used too much.

If you don't want to use two really light coats, the boolits can be dunked in a mixture of distilled, rain, or "softened" water and bar soap or dish detergent (I prefer soap) before sizing. It works wet or dry for sizing, but they obviously must be completely dry before applying the lube.

Gear

[Recluse]

How can lube on a .454 bullet protect the grooves when sizing down to .452? It can't, the lube can't shield the boolit from the size of the die constriction. If it could, the sizer wouldn't work very well, would it.

Actually it can. There is a lot of discussion, talk and thought on the hydro-lock with the lube forming a seal around the boolit as it passes through the barrel of a gun. . . or through a push-through die.

I'll give credence to the theory in that boolits I've recovered that I've tumble-lubed have had the grooves undamaged other than the rifling scars--and this through an old 1911 barrel that has its share of nicks and pitting (an old Colt Gov't 1911 my C.O. presented me when I discharged from the service).

Likewise, I've fired boolits with traditional grooves and lube and saw some scarring more reflective of the inner condition of the barrel.

HOWEVER. . . the reason I lube/size/lube/load is because I've found that two light coats when tumble-lubing is far superior to one heavy coat. It's also easier on the boolit and the equipment to size it after the first lube run, and in the case of my rifle boolits, I ONLY size them through push-through sizers so that they go in nose-first.

The less stress I put on them during the gas-check installation and sizing/lubing, the more integrity I can keep with the boolit.

For large calibers like your .454, this probably isn't an issue so far as the integrity of the projectile in relation to long-range accuracy is concerned. But when you start firing 150 - 200 grain projectiles that have a ratio of length to width that often exceeds 4:1 or better and you're aiming for velocities exceeding 2300fps or better, I play every card in the deck. :)

But for the larger boolits, *shrug* dunno. I just give everything an initial lube, size it, then lube it again. Over the years, it's what has worked best for me.

:coffee:

[noylj]

Why push-through sizing until you know you need to size?
I don't size and probably never will again.

[gcsteve]

Thank you Recluse for the in-depth answer to the question. It does make sense. The 200 grain Lee TL round nose is sized to .454 for my somewhat over-sized barrel in my 1911. It slugs out at .452. I size those boolits only to try to get the best concentricity as possible, and my .454 sizer barely touches them. The 200 grain SWC (for the 45 ACP revolver) also passes thru the .452 sizer without excessive effort. In fact, my 148 grain WC's (they drop at about .360) with a very light coat of 45-45-10 sized to .358 require more force that the 45 cal un-lubed boolits.

I can see that using two lube coats will leave more lube on the boolits. When I test these boolits with only one coat, I'll soon know if two coats would be needed.

Thanks again.

[Recluse]

Steve,

I look at things as "tools" and sizing and lubing are but two more tools. For me, I'm results oriented, and various tools and how and when I use them are what help me achieve the results I'm seeking.

Some folks never size; some folks like me always run their boolits through a sizer. I do so because I want guaranteed consistency in size and concentric shape. I do the lube/size/lube thing because I have learned it is what works best for me in the effort to achieve the results I seek.

Tools are just that--tools. We use the appropriate tool/s in the manner that best serves the application in order to achieve our objective. I'm not convinced there is a "right way or wrong way" in accordance with everything we do regarding boolit casting, so long as we keep safety at the forefront.

The variations are virtually endless--condition of each individual bore, climate/humidity of shooting conditions, precise metallurgical makeup of each batch of alloy we cast from, specific volatility of powder and primers we use and how they may slightly vary from one lot number to the next, etc etc etc etc etc.

How we deal with our cast boolits is but one of many variables a handloader contends with. For me, I live for the pursuit and the journey as I've found the destination in many of life's travels to be boring as hell. :)

Keep trying things the way you are, keep enjoying the journey. That's what makes one a true student and disciple of the gun.

:coffee:

[madsenshooter]

I've not seen any leading from bullets in my dies, though I don't pre-lube them. But then, I cast with a harder than normal alloy, and occasionally coat the bullet's bands with Imperial sizing die wax, maybe every 6th bullet or so. I'm also a fan of not sizing a whole bunch at once.

[Larry Gibson]

Steve

No “negativity” at all. Perhaps you were influened by the previous post....doesn't matter as I offer no arguement only an answer to your questions.


You asked; “Lee says to tumble lube, size, then lube again. Why?”
Then stated; “They claim if you don't lube first you will lead your push through sizing die.”

I simply answered that if you don’t follow the directions and lube 1st then you can lead the sizer. “Can” doesn’t mean you will as you didn’t, others have though. Thus there was no “negativity” intended on my part. As to gear’s thoughts on Lee’s instructions that’s his choice. However, my comment meant that most manufacturer’s have instructions. If you don’t follow the instructions like getting the sizer leaded because the bullets weren’t lubed 1st then where does the “fault” lay? In this case you didn’t get any leading because the bullet is sized very little, just as I said. That’s good.

“I have no significant groove deformation. If I did, then I would say the sizing reduction is too much (get another mold closer to the size you need). How can lube on a .454 bullet protect the grooves when sizing down to .452? It can't, the lube can't shield the boolit from the size of the die constriction. If it could, the sizer wouldn't work very well, would it.”

If you do a “search” you will find that almost everyone here (as in randyrat’s post above along with Recluse’s explanation why he does it) recommends lubing the bullets prior to sizing any appreciable degree. The reason is the lube does, in fact, not compress very much and holds the conformation of the lube grooves. This is especially the case with TL style groove. A .002 sizing may or may not be “appreciable” to a TL style bullet, though probably not on a larger .454 bullets which generally have larger grooves than say a .314 90 gr SWC.

The photo shows how 2 .32 cal bullets were sized, lubed and GC’d at .325 and then pushed through a .314 Lee sizer with no deformation of the lube grooves after a .011 sizing. Those bullets would have been severely deformed and the sizer leaded had they not been lubed prior to sizing that much. Actually you can see how the unlubed grooves in the left bullet collapsed and got appreciably smaller than the bottom lube grooves which were filled with lube prior to the sizing. I also size TL314-90-SWCs (they drop at .314 - .315) at .314, .312. .311 and .309. If not lubed prior to the 1st sizing the lube grooves are almost 100% wiped away on a .311 sizing and the sizer will be leaded. It is the same with my TL358s, TL41s and my TL44s when they are sized + .003.

If you’ve no problems with sizing with your method or using the modified LLA you use then no “negativity” here, I was just answering the question is all. Also note in my previous post that I also don’t necessarily follow Lee’s instructions per se as I most often lube a lot of cast bullets with Dillon case lube if the sizing is not too much through the Lee sizer. Thus I don't always follow the directions either and I also sometimes try to "improve" upon the process. However, unlike some (not meaning you) when I fail to improve and/or the modified product does not perform as intended then I blame myself.....not the manufacturer. My only meaning is if you had gotten leading in the sizer then it would have been because you failed to follow directions....nothing more of a meaning intended nor anything less.

Sorry to have taken your time with a misunderstanding.

Larry Gibson

[Beagle333]

I tumble first then size, because I like to use my hand press to size and it is a bear to size mine if they aren't lubed. [smilie=b: I like to sit a can of unsized on one side of me, size em and drop em in another can on the other side while I'm sitting down watching tv. If you tried a hand press just as a comparison, you'd really notice a difference in the ease of sizing with a little brown stuff on em. :D

[Junior1942]

Why ration LLA? Use two coats; it's cheap.

[Tomuchiron]

I prelube with silicone spray. Does make sizing easier. And have a lot with no other use for it.
Just a final coat of LLA works for me.

[btroj]

Why not? It works. I never considered doing it otherwise.

Two coats just works.

[noylj]

>Some folks never size; some folks like me always run their boolits through a sizer. I do so because I want guaranteed consistency in size and concentric shape.

This is what I don't understand--have you ACTUALLY TESTED the difference? I have--in .45 Auto, .44 Mag, 9x19, and .38 Super. In each case, the as-cast bullets produced smaller average groups than the sized bullets. As far as I was concerned, sizing was reducing the accuracy of my cast bullets. Why should I size bullets to make them more consistently inaccurate?
Until you actually TEST your assumptions, you won't know.
That is the point of my posts--try testing and learn what actually works for you. Maybe you won't get the same results I did--but, maybe you will. Think about it.

[Recluse]

This is what I don't understand--have you ACTUALLY TESTED the difference?

That is the point of my posts--try testing and learn what actually works for you. Maybe you won't get the same results I did--but, maybe you will. Think about it.

:smile:

How do you think I came to the conclusion that running every boolit I cast through my sizers works best for me?

:coffee:

[oldfart1956]

Hmmmm....well without gitting into the fray I'll just say sometimes I do an sometimes I don't. (pre-lube/or size) It depends. Depends on the alloy, what gun I'm loading for and what the pour did that particular day. Like many I size more for consistancy than anything. How I hold the mold (loose or tight) makes a difference. Temp can make a difference too! The forcing cone on the S&W Bodyguard is HUGE...like a funnel. I can ram .360's through that snubbie. The old model Ruger .357 doesn't even have a forcing cone and them fatties would be shaving lead. If I size right after dropping the boolits I can bypass the lube if I want. Sometimes I do...sometimes not. I'd be leary of sizing too much without lube. Don't think my arm or the bench would take it. If the tumble loob boolits are running fat that day sizing them would likely remove the grooves. I'm just sayin' generally speaking I lube/size/lube/load. And Recluse loob is the best thing since 2 cavity molds! :) Audie..the Oldfart..

[monge]

Ranch Dog lubes with wd-40 before sizeing then dips boolits in hot alox and then sizes again ! Im going to try this because I hate cleaning the alox off the nose of the boolits.The direction are on his web site.

[FergusonTO35]

I give 'em a good squirt with WD-40, then size. I size all my boolits because some of my chambers are tighter than others and an occasional oversize boolit will expand the brass enough to make chambering difficult.

[beex215]

next time ill try not lubing before sizing. my m&P needs to be sized. throat is too tight.

[FergusonTO35]

On revolvers, an oversize boo lit can prevent the cartridge from chambering completely. This causes light strikes, obviously not a good idea when hunting or in a defensive situation.

[357shooter]

:smile:

How do you think I came to the conclusion that running every boolit I cast through my sizers works best for me?

:coffee:

Me too. I've found that using the custom nose punch from theperfessor and sizing/lubing each bullet gives better results on target. Unsized are OK, but not the best. Using TL and sizing also gives excellent results.

Yes, it's all been tested by shooting off a rest and measuring groups. And yes, I stuck with the process that produces the smallest groups. [smilie=l:[smilie=l:[smilie=l:

[tmattox]

Can I pan lube (using Lee liquid alox) boolits cast in a lyman mold or do I have to put them through my Lyman 4500 sizer to get them lubed?

[Recluse]

Can I pan lube (using Lee liquid alox) boolits cast in a lyman mold or do I have to put them through my Lyman 4500 sizer to get them lubed?

You can pan lube any boolit--brand of mold or style of boolit doesn't matter.

However, pan-lubing with straight LLA will not work because you need a lube that upon drying/cooling will solidify and LLA will not--at least not for many months.

:coffee:

[autopilotmp]

I actually don't care for LLA. I use the lee push through sizers for both 9mm and 45acp. I pan lube them first with felix lube then size. Haven't had any issues with that so far. Is this because my lube is keeping the die from leading or is it because I am not changing the size enough to lead the die regardless if I pre lube or not?