Just bought an Open Top...What Do I Have????

[rbertalotto]

Went to a Gun Show here in Massachusetts and bought a piece of "unobtainium"......

Open Top revolvers of modern production are not allowed to be sold in MA as they do not pass the "Firearm Safety Act of 1998".

But if they were in the state before 1998 they are grandfathered and are OK to sell. So I picked this little 38 Special beauty up for $400. Which seems high to those of you in the other 49 states, but here in The People Republic of Massachusetts, its a steal!

So, what do I have? Anyone familiar with this revolver?

http://images109.fotki.com/v149/photos/2/36012/11158922/photo-vi.jpg

http://images12.fotki.com/v254/photos/2/36012/11158922/photo1-vi.jpg

http://images61.fotki.com/v443/photos/2/36012/11158922/photo-vi.jpg

http://images15.fotki.com/v1624/photos/2/36012/11158922/photo-vi.jpg

Lots more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/open-top-conversion/

[Mooseman]

I can tell you the ASM stands for made by Armi San Marco of Brescia, Italy.
I assume CFA was the importer of that gun.
It is a Colt navy clone.

[rbertalotto]

1851 Correct?

But the grip frame differs greatly from my Pietta 1851 and 1860 models.

The grip is more like an 1873 Colt SAA

[44man]

Very, very nice gun, enjoy it.
How crazy are the liberals in Mass? It is BP after all. Does it mean modern steels are worse then what Sam Colt made?

[Mooseman]

Looks like this one...http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/survival/gear/1277316-2#slide-7

[I'll Make Mine]

How crazy are the liberals in Mass? It is BP after all.

Look closer at the photos -- I don't see nipples, but I do see a hammer mounted firing pin (barely visible in the last photo) and loading gate, and the OP said it was .38 Special. I think it's a reproduction Colt made for modern ammunition, and as such is a firearm under all definitions. Honestly, I'd be a little nervous firing an open-top with modern ammunition, though I'd be comfortable enough loading the .38 cases with black powder for that one.

Edit: second photo shows an ejector rod, not a loading lever, too.

[44man]

Look closer at the photos -- I don't see nipples, but I do see a hammer mounted firing pin (barely visible in the last photo) and loading gate, and the OP said it was .38 Special. I think it's a reproduction Colt made for modern ammunition, and as such is a firearm under all definitions. Honestly, I'd be a little nervous firing an open-top with modern ammunition, though I'd be comfortable enough loading the .38 cases with black powder for that one.

Edit: second photo shows an ejector rod, not a loading lever, too.
Oh, you are correct! I did not see that. I would shoot BP too. It might be safe with light smokeless loads.
Thank you for being on the ball.

[rbertalotto]

Firing pin is in the back-up plate. The hammer face is smooth.

This revolver was made from the get-go for 38 Special. It is not converted from a percussion pistol. It was Proof Housed for standard 38 Special ammo.

I just got back from the range. It shoots very accurately! Very nice trigger. I'm just glad I didn't pass it up.

[I'll Make Mine]

Proofed for modern .38 Special? It should be, given it was made for import within the last 40-50 years. I'd still be nervous; some completely modern guns will shoot loose with standard pressure ammunition. It'd be cooler with black, anyway -- fit better with the look of the gun. :Fire:

[.22-10-45]

Hello, rbertalotto. If the bore hasn't been sleeved to a smaller dia., a .38 special bullet (.357-.358" dia.) will probably fall right thru.
If it hasn't..the proper ctg. would be the .38 long colt..as were the original Colt conversions of the 1871-1872 period.
The first used a "heeled" bullet..like a .22 rimfire..maj. bullet bearing dia. same as case dia.
short "heel" fits inside case..outside lubricated.
Later..in the 1890's..they were "modernized" by having inside lubrication..bullet fit inside case...like the .38 special of today..only a hollow-base was needed to expand to take rifling upon firing.
I load for a 1970's era Colt 1851 .36 navy revolver with a Kirst conversion cyl. I use a hollow based bullet..bullet is a light thumb push fit in bore..fired slugs show complete expansion to groove dia.

[longhorn]

Imported by Cimarron Fire Arms, Fredericksburg, Texas. May still be cataloged. Their retail store in F'burg is Texas Jack's, always worth a stop. I've shot my father's a good bit with light loads, NO Plus P, thank you very much. His is a slick-handling and plenty accurate sixgun. The sights are marginal, of course. He owns several Cimarron imports, and I've been impressed with all of 'em.

[longhorn]

Just re-read this thread; it was built from the beginning as a 38 Special and I'm certain proofed as such. IMHO, safe as mother's milk with modern .38 Special loads, but I wouldn't feed it many or preferably any +P loads.

[.22-10-45]

I too re-read post. .38 Spec. makes it alot easier! Have fun!

[MtGun44]

This is a "conversion" on a .36 Navy design, cutting off the rear of the cylinder and
adding a plate with 6 firing pins and a loading gate. These were done in the (approx) late
1860 to 1870s as cartridges came into being and old muzzle loading revolvers were
converted to cartridge use.

This should be a modern reproduction, and of course, .38 Spl was not in existence in
those days. The original would have been .38 Short Colt, a heeled boolit design like
a .22 rimfire, or a .38 Rimfire, also a heeled boolit design.

Bill

[Frank46]

Think they call it "the Richards conversion". The origionals were converted from percussion cap to centerfire. Saw one once that had been done in 38 special. Think the origionals had a .375 bore. Frank

[EDK]

There are some differences between the PIETTA grip frames and other 1851 Navy clones. Mike Belliveau...writes for GUNS OF THE OLD WEST and the now defunct SHOOT! magazine; also lives in Massachusetts?...prefers them and is always looking for them IIRC.

The OPEN TOPS are interesting, BUT not the guns for enthusiastic reloading. I'd stay at MINIMUM 38 special loads as my MAXIMUM level in one. Great for CAS or a limited amount of shooting. I've had the bug for a pair of 44s and an 1866 or HENRY copy to match.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[rbertalotto]

So far my "Conversion" addiction is totally out of control!

I have two 1860 Piettas in 45LC thatI shoot Cowboy 45 Special out of, two 1858 Sheriff Models (45LC), and two 1858 with 8" barrels.....one with sights and one without. The conversion cylinders go back and forth between the two different 1858 revolvers.

Anyone know how to reach Mike Belleveau?

[jimkim]

So far my "Conversion" addiction is totally out of control!

I have two 1860 Piettas in 45LC thatI shoot Cowboy 45 Special out of, two 1858 Sheriff Models (45LC), and two 1858 with 8" barrels.....one with sights and one without. The conversion cylinders go back and forth between the two different 1858 revolvers.

Anyone know how to reach Mike Belleveau?

Then you'll love this. http://www.kirstkonverter.com/shopcontent.asp?type=coltnavy

[Multigunner]

Think they call it "the Richards conversion". The origionals were converted from percussion cap to centerfire. Saw one once that had been done in 38 special. Think the origionals had a .375 bore. Frank
Bullet or Ball size was .375 but the minor bore size is closer to .36, a little over .36 but not much (across from lands), how deep the rifling is cut would determine the major diameter (across from bottom of grooves).
When you ram the ball home its sized down a bit, then when fired the forcing cone squeezed down a bit more.
A .357 bullet will usually slide right down the bore without resistence, not engaging the rifling at all. Some who've converted the 1851 to .38 Special without sleeving the barrel get fair accuracy if hollowbase wadcutters are used.

The standard .38 Special is a fairly low powered cartridge with low pressures. I would not want to try +P loads in a conversion.
http://www.oldammo.com/august04.htm

[I'll Make Mine]

Anyone know how to reach Mike Belleveau?

Do a search on YouTube for "black powder revolver" and you're certain to find some of his videos; click through to his profile and send him a PM.

[StrawHat]

I believe that is the Richards Mason conversion. Imported by Cimarron and still listed on the internet.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Conversions/51R-MConvOpener.htm#

A decent revolver and easy enough to load for. My choice would be a 150 - 160 RNFP boolit and black powder.

[ironhead7544]

These are proofed at CIP specs which are higher than our +p specs. I have an 1871 model in 38 Special with 1860 grip frame and 7 and 1/2 inch barrel. Standard 38 Special loads are no problem. This revolver is stronger than most people give it credit for. Nice buy. Mine is very accurate and the sights are right on at 100 yards with 158 gr LRN ammo.

[bigboredad]

It looks like a bunch of fun. Reading all the guesses is very entertaining as well. Seems a lot of posting and very little reading

[scattershot]

Looks like a Richards conversion of an 1851 Navy, in .38 Special. Mfg by Armi San Marco in Italy, and imported by Cimarron Arms. Great quality firearms, and a good find. Enjoy!

[Aces an Eights]

You might be interested in this site too,
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/army-navy-conversion-and-open-top.php

[bigboredad]

You might be interested in this site too,
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/army-navy-conversion-and-open-top.php


cool thanks for the link I always lose it then can never find it again