444 Price shock...

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I was toying with the idea of adding a 444 Handi rifle to the fold to work with my boolits I am casting for the 44 mag until I checked on the price of brass (3-4x the price of 44 mags). Even loaded ammo was almost 2x the price of a 30-06. As it is, I think I will just go for heavy loads in my 44 Rossi 92 if I need more...

[runfiverun]

get you another 44 bbl and ream it to 445 supermag.
you'll forget about the 444.

[6pt-sika]

Hmmm , must be a good thing then that I have about 2,000 pieces of brass to feed my herd of 444's [smilie=l:

Although I could use another 300 pieces if I go thru with the 411 JDJ thing that I keep thinking about :holysheep

[pkie44]

Brass will last a long time in that single shot, won't need to crimp. You can always swap something you don't need, like getting it for free.

[6pt-sika]

Brass will last a long time in that single shot, won't need to crimp. You can always swap something you don't need, like getting it for free.

Even with crimping and full house loads I get very good case life in my lever actions .

I bought 50 pieces of the Hornady brass last year for use in a Contender barrel that was 444 . I thought that brass was a touch high . Maybe $10-15 more for 50 pieces then Remington brass but still not terrible if you only need 50 pieces .

I got 500 pieces of NEW nickel plated Remington off Gunbroker a year or so ago for a really good price . I don't normally buy nickel plated intentionally but I got this stuff for almost half price of what Midway usually gets . Think 500 pieces was something like $165 .

I think 100 pieces of plain Remington is about $70 and 50 pieces of plain Hornady is about $43 . Either way in the whole scheme of things I wouldn't let that one time cost prevent me from getting the rifle if I really wanted it .

You can pretty much buy 100 pieces of new Remington brass for the cost of two boxes of Remington ammo as I think the stuff is about $35-40 a box . If you keep your eyes open on Gunbroker you can sometimes find 20-50 lots of once fired brass fairly reasonable .

[pkie44]

Good to see Remington brass back in stock at the Big Store $310.00 per 500, I just don't need 500

[Silvercreek Farmer]

get you another 44 bbl and ream it to 445 supermag.
you'll forget about the 444.

Hmmm, interesting... will 44 mag dies work with the 445?

I was able to find a little info on the results here...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-9670..com

[helice]

I read of guys here getting remarkable velocities from their 44 Mag rifles. The little Rossi M-92s are reportedly quite strong actions and they allow the 44 Mag to "rock and roll". I have both the 44 and the 444 and I truly like my Big Bore Winchester, but the 44 is a lot more fun to shoot.:) The Big Bore 94 is a much larger gun and not as sleek. Lately I have loaded my 444 down to reduce the punishment. The loads I shoot now, you can reach with your 44 Mag. If I had the 44 when I bought the 444 I would not have bought the 444. (I can't believe I just wrote that.)

[Four Fingers of Death]

The local gunshop is selling 444 ammo (out of stockof brass) and it is Remington at $AU 94 a box of 20! The local guy buys ammo in decent quantities for a small shop and is nortmally competitive on ammo, not this time though. One gunshop in Sydney has four packets of 20 Remingtons and said that my price (I buy most of my brass and reloading stuff off this guy and usually get a discount), he said $AU60 a box of twenty.

Having said that, hunting with a single shot, two packets of ammo or a bag of 50 brass should see a lot of meat in the freezer unless you are shooting gonzo reloads with a big crimp.

Much as I like the 444,if I were in your shoes, I think I'd just get a handi rifle in 45/70. Brass is almost half the price of 444 brass here and probably similar in the States. The 45/70 loaded with soft lead well lubed boolits in front of a case full of black is sufficient for most game, let alone loading it up with smokyliss!

My single shot big bore hunting rifle is a H&R Trapdoor, I have a group buy Gould HP mould and I will be hunting with black powder loads with it. I do have a 416 Rigby No1 Tropical rifle, but we are talking Yankee big bores here at the moment, not elephant, lion and buffalo whackers!

[farmallcrew]

Ive been wanting a 444 for about 5yrs now. The ex's step dad had one and one day he asked me you wanna feel a tingle. Me not backing down to shoot any gun, i said sure. Well i want one. Haha

[Four Fingers of Death]

Ive been wanting a 444 for about 5yrs now. The ex's step dad had one and one day he asked me you wanna feel a tingle. Me not backing down to shoot any gun, i said sure. Well i want one. Haha

My one was a near new one, the guy that ordered it in specially, angled for a discount and ended up getting a box of 20 Hornady 265 or 275Gn factory rounds thrown in. He fired one shot, his Dad fired one shot, his mate fired one shot and then they took it back to the shop with 17rounds left in the box, lol. Too much gun. It slaps the stuffing out of me and gives me a sharp, brief pang of headache type pain sighting in off the bench. It doesn't kick as much as my 375H&H Remington 700 DG, but seems to be able to rattle your skull better! Once off the bench it is still a handful, but more easily handled.

I paid too much for it, but it was a few hundred dollars cheaper than new, is nicely finished and there were none around at the time. Also some of the new Marlins in other calibres started arriving and the finish was not very inspiring. This one is nicely finished, has reasonable wood, good checkering and Ballard rifling. Soooo, I ponied up with the bucks. I was humming and harring at the time, but I'm glad I bought it. I picked up a plastic bag of bulk brass for reasonable money, can't remember what breed it was.

I also have a 336 in 30/30 that has a brilliant bore, but is well worn on the outside from being carried in a horse saddle scabbard by a guy that used to work cattle in the high country near the Victorian border. The old stockman retired and moved to my town to live with his daughter. I got it a bit cheaper than normal because of the rub marks, but as far as I'm concerned, that history made it more valuable to me. I intend to set them up the same with identical low powered, low mounted scopes, probably 1.5-4 Leupolds (I already have one, hopefully I will be able to find a second one at a reasonable price). Now, if I win the lottery, a 1894 in 218Bee would round off that lot.

The 444s are like warts, they grow on ya!

[Bullshop]

I have a bolt action 444 I would sell or trade. It is a very handsomely converted P-14 Enfield. It is in carbine length and has a muzzle break so recoil is very moderate.

[Four Fingers of Death]

that would be a nice piece.

[6pt-sika]

Good to see Remington brass back in stock at the Big Store $310.00 per 500, I just don't need 500

Heck if I had the "extra" funds I wouldn't mind an additional 2,000 pieces !

[Firebricker]

I love my .444 just wish I would have got one of BRP's heavier molds for it before he closed. The cases hold up good for me. I've only used Remington brass since a few boxes came with the rifle so when I bought some I just stuck with Rem. I would like to see Starline make .444 brass.
FB

[helice]

Looks to me like Four Fingers has your answer. Pick up a 45-70 HandyGun. That 's a sharp idea. I bought a bunch of 444 brass a number of years ago and I'm glad I did. 45-70 brass is much cheaper and Reminton is not the only manufacturer like the 444.

[Marlin Junky]

get you another 44 bbl and ream it to 445 supermag.
you'll forget about the 444.

445SM is a fine cartridge but you won't safely achieve 2100 fps with a 350 grain boolit from a 22" Single Shot until you step up to a 444. Then again, perhaps the price of brass is more important to you. However, I don't seem to be able to wear out my Remington 444 brass as long as I neck size it and keep the pressure below 45K. Actually, I've got brass that's many years old and has survived many uncomfortable loads (uncomfortable to me) that hasn't stretched a .002". Then again, 50+ grains of AA2230 behind a 350 grain boolit usually provides too much fun for us old farts. :bigsmyl2: One day I hope to have a 26" SS in 444 with a little more weight to it.

Perhaps we'll see the Starline logo on 444 brass one day if it continues to rise in popularity.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I love my .444 just wish I would have got one of BRP's heavier molds for it before he closed.

How heavy do you want to go? There's a 500 grain paper patch available here:

http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=6

If you don't see one that suits your fancy, I'll bet Tom will let you tweak one of the existing designs. 43-340B is a glove fit for the Outfitter. Seat to 2.580-2.585" and Lee Factory Crimp on the wide leading band which seats outside the case about 1/20 (.050") of an inch. Order it to drop .432" boolits and they'll probably cast .4325" to .4335" in COWW metal.

Oh yeah, the meplat was designed to fit the Lyman 421 (or was it 429??) top punch and clear the action's ejection port. I'll doubled check that top punch #. Make sure your action will clear a 2.59" round before ordering as is.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

Hmmm, interesting... will 44 mag dies work with the 445?

In case you haven't found the answer to your question yet, it is yes. I shot a DW SuperMag and TC both in 445SM for years and only used my RCBS 44M/44Spl dies. The 445 is a straight wall case while the 444 is a heavy tapered case... emphasis on heavy... 30-'06 heavy.

MJ

[Bullshop]

Just because I wanted to try a heavy boolit in my 444 and had one on hand I tried the Lyman mold designed for the 43 Spanish. Its something like a 370gn rnpb. It droped a bit fat for modern 44 cal but that was no problem it shot good.
The round nose is no problem for my rifle as it is a bolt action. For a lever action RCBS makes a flat nose version for the 43 Spanish about the same weight. We have that one too but I didnt have any made up so went with the Lyman version.
I cant remember exactly what diameter these drop but its something like .436" or so. I think I may have (cant remember) sized the .433" for my rifle.
I dont know what the twist is in this rifle but suspect it is faster than what Marlin originaly used before they saw the light.

[6pt-sika]

Just because I wanted to try a heavy boolit in my 444 and had one on hand I tried the Lyman mold designed for the 43 Spanish. Its something like a 370gn rnpb. It droped a bit fat for modern 44 cal but that was no problem it shot good.
The round nose is no problem for my rifle as it is a bolt action. For a lever action RCBS makes a flat nose version for the 43 Spanish about the same weight. We have that one too but I didnt have any made up so went with the Lyman version.
I cant remember exactly what diameter these drop but its something like .436" or so. I think I may have (cant remember) sized the .433" for my rifle.
I dont know what the twist is in this rifle but suspect it is faster than what Marlin originaly used before they saw the light.


I've got several molds in the 370-380 range that get what I call hunting accuracy out to the 150 or so yard range and thats in the older Micro Groove 1-38 barrels .

In my newer 444 thats ballard and 1-20 390-420 grainers do just fine with better then hunting accuracy .

But in both cases to get what I thought was acceptable accuracy I had to push them kinda hard . In the 380 and below class H322 was the cream of the crop as far as powder was concerned . But with the 400 grain stuff it's either Varget or RL7 period !

[hunter64]

I had mountain molds make up a 200 grn flat point for me and when loaded warm it will rival some bolt action's accuracy at 100 yards. It has taken a few deer and a moose last year. I absolutely love it, very fast and really flattens the trajectory out and I don't have to worry about longer shots in the 250 to 300 yard range.

Don't let any one tell you that the old microgroove barrels have poor accuracy, see for yourself.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/IM002126.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/IM002125.jpg

210 grn hollowpoint group buy.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e304/1964bigfoot/IM002127.jpg

[TXGunNut]

Cool cartridge! I once (several yrs ago) had a choice between the 45-70 Gov'mint and the 444 Marlin for a large bore levergun and chose the .45-70. I don't regret choosing the 45-70 but the 444 would have been a great companion for my 375 Winchester. I wasn't a boolit caster back then, 444 looking better every day. In those days the choices of factory bullets was very limited, a boolit caster can easily overcome that today.

[6pt-sika]

Cool cartridge! I once (several yrs ago) had a choice between the 45-70 Gov'mint and the 444 Marlin for a large bore levergun and chose the .45-70. I don't regret choosing the 45-70 but the 444 would have been a great companion for my 375 Winchester. I wasn't a boolit caster back then, 444 looking better every day. In those days the choices of factory bullets was very limited, a boolit caster can easily overcome that today.

I have a herd of 444's and a single 45-70 . So one would "think" that I think the 444 is the better "overall" cartridge .

In the scheme of hunting and ease of getting BIG bullets (400 grain plus) to shoot well I think the 45-70 is the better cartridge .

In the matter of enjoyment to shoot paper and mess with as far as cast bullets are concerned I give the edge to the 444 .

I happen to like the 375 WIN as well but am sorry to say I no longer own one .

[mebe007]

I own both a 444 outfitter and a 45-70 guide gun. Love em both.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have owned a couple of Marlin 45/70s and somehow got talked out of my last one???? How did that happen??

I have always been fascinated by the 444, but didn't ever see one when I had the money and was so inclined. I ended up with a 75' built one, but hadn't got around to using it when I saw a near new one with nice wood, checkering and a barrel with Ballard rifling (yeah, I know you can get Microgrooves to shoot lead fine, but this rifle just pressed my buttons!) so I bought it and sold the older one.

The guy who owned it was a friend of the gunshop owner. He said he went out shooting with him and his father and a mutual friend and they went to sight it in with the Hornady 265 or 275 factory loads that they bought. He said the owner fired it, handed it over to his father who fired a shot, handed it over to the friend who also fired a shot. The owner then cleared the rifle, cleaned it and carried it over to the gunshop guy and said 'Take this back to the shop and get rid of it for me please.' lol

The rifle came with a box of Hornady ammo with three empty shells in it, haha! I love it,but my 45/70 hunting rifle is a H&R Greasy Grass Trapdoor carbine ( The Battle of Greasy Grass is what the Indians called Little Big Horn, they won the fight, so I reckon they should be entitled to name the battle).

Availability of ammo aside, I reckon the 444 is more suited to Australia, but if I lived in big a$$ed Grizzly country, I think I'd be toting a 45/70!

[Marlin Junky]

I reckon the 444 is more suited to Australia, but if I lived in big a$$ed Grizzly country, I think I'd be toting a 45/70!

From my point of view, the decision to protect myself against a grizzly attack with either a 444 or a 45-70 would be based on a few key factors.

Paramount would be boolit performance. I can get my 345 grain .432" boolit to leave the muzzle of my carbine at 2000 fps with good accuracy from the iron sighted, short (18.5") barrel gun at 50 yards (the farthest I've tested this load so far); HOWEVER, I do not know what kind of expansion I would get from my BHN 27 heat treated (Pb/WW) boolits with their .288-290" meplat (approx. the same meplat as the original 44 Kieth boolit). On the other hand, the 400 grain Speer .458 bullet designed for the 45-70 would more than likely expand perfectly... or I suppose it could come apart if launched at 1900 fps... more experience would render a better decision.

Also, the gun would need to be 100% reliable, I would need to be able to shoot the gun accurately, decisively and rapidly should multiple shots be required. I suppose in some instances, too much recoil could prove fatal to the shooter if he/she couldn't get back on target fast enough for a quick follow-up shot.

Then again, barrel configuration and basic boolit design can be considered variables as well. I would much rather have a 444 with a custom barrel vs. a 45-70 with shallow grooves UNLESS I had lots of experience with boolit metal alloying and paper patching .45 caliber boolits. The paper patched rounds would need to cycle QUICKLY without a hitch too. Naturally, one can also rebarrel a 45-70 Marlin but it's kinda hard to get a .45 caliber barrel with grooves .006" deep for under 400 bucks.

MJ

P.S. Attached thumbnail at approx. 1/2 size (click for larger image)

This round will do < 1.5 MOA from my iron sighted 444 Outfitter at 50 yards for three shots and is loaded with 46-47 grains of AA2200 (depending on weather). Yesterday I put 2 through the same hole with the third one touching but shooting good five shot groups is way more challenging because of recoil. Lately I've been stringing the last two out of 5 rounds vertically which is probably due to all the commotion created to my shooting position. Velocity is right at 2000 fps from my carbine. Boolit is from Accurate Mold's 43-340B cast of 50/50, water dropped and weighs 338 grains naked. Not sure about the exact pressure but the cases go on and on like E-Bunny. Based on QuickLoad data (with volume adjusted for necked sized only brass) the pressure may be a tad above 45K PSI. Fun to shoot but 10-15 rounds is all it takes to wipe the grin off my face.

[HangFireW8]

444 Brass is long-lived, especially if you don't go too crazy on the crimp. Even my nickle plated brass lasts for years.

For my mid-1990's Ballard rebarrel 444SS, anything from 52 to 54 grains of H322 make an accurate load with Hornady 265's. I've only started experimenting with cast in it, I've been tied up having fun casting for an '06 and an 8mm. It's a rebarrel because Marlin offered, for a while, cheap rebarrels to Ballard soon after it replaced the MicroGroove.


The Big Bore 94 is a much larger gun and not as sleek. Lately I have loaded my 444 down to reduce the punishment. The loads I shoot now, you can reach with your 44 Mag. If I had the 44 when I bought the 444 I would not have bought the 444. (I can't believe I just wrote that.)



The guy who owned it was a friend of the gunshop owner. He said he went out shooting with him and his father and a mutual friend and they went to sight it in with the Hornady 265 or 275 factory loads that they bought. He said the owner fired it, handed it over to his father who fired a shot, handed it over to the friend who also fired a shot. The owner then cleared the rifle, cleaned it and carried it over to the gunshop guy and said 'Take this back to the shop and get rid of it for me please.' lol

Recoil tolerance is largely a matter of stock fit. Too-long stocks take all the slack out of the shooters body and prevent them from "rolling with the punches". Too-short or too-low stocks can result in cheek slap. Too-tall stocks (rarely a problem with Marlin levers) can result in the shooter leaning their head over the stock and getting hit upside the head on recoil.

My build dictates that Classic-style stocks work better for me than Weatherby-style, but that doesn't mean factory is good enough. For my 45/70 and 444 Marlins, I cut the heel at 2-1/2 degrees, and replaced the hard, pointy factory recoil pad with a 1" Pachmayr Decelerator Sporting Clays pad which I sanded to fit. The result is a little longer than factory, mounts to my shoulder quickly, has no heel point to dig into my pecks, and I can shoot full-house loads all day.

In the pic below you can see the wood wedge removed alongside the factory recoil pad, which was previously modified by sanding the evil point off the heel.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51700&d=1285551366

[Four Fingers of Death]

Nice job Hangfire!

I just managed to order a Ranch Dog 265Gn mould before he pulled up stakes and moved on. It is on the way now and I am really looking forward to it.

I was tempted to grab a 240Gn mould as well, but I must have 8-10 moulds around this weight and funds aren't as freely available as I'd like at the moment, so I passed on it. Kicking myself that I didn't get a 30Cal Ranch Dog Mould when he had stock.

[Buckshot]

..............I built a 444 on a Greener Martini action.

http://www.fototime.com/2FEA593E1B5BD54/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/337FA4D09FA0114/standard.jpg

It has a Douglas barrel bought as a blank with a 16" twist.

http://www.fototime.com/82F9C15B4D54EF4/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AD192423A0C0D86/standard.jpg

Rear sight I made for it. Right photo is the base I made. The rear sight rotates up or down to lay along the rear of the action. I had NO machine tools at the time. I used files and a Dremel, and well I DID have a drill press :-)

http://www.fototime.com/0910F563F4E55FE/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8F44027A7A8D647/standard.jpg

Left the sight in the windage slot. Right is the windage knob. The slot was chain drilled and then squared up with a file.

http://www.fototime.com/C9730B459E8C514/standard.jpg

One thing nice about that 16" twist is it allows you to shoot heavy boolits. These are 370gr slugs intended for the .43 Spanish. These were sized down, then paper patched. They were sprayed with moly for lube. With good healthy loads it backs off the slug smartly :-)

.............Buckshot

[Four Fingers of Death]

As we say in Australia Buckshot, "yer a bloody legend!" Bit of elbow grease in that sight base.

[FAsmus]

Gentelmen:

Here is a shot of my bullet inspection operation for my 44/63 Ballard (AKA 444).

55088

These are 44-500-PB Jones bullets and they shoot very well in my Stevens 44 1/2.

What is your load Buckshot?

Good evening,
Forrest

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the only reason I've never owned a 444 is the horrendously slooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww twist. It was something like 1:38". It would be a very viable alternative to the 45-70 with a 1:18" twist.

[Four Fingers of Death]

the only reason I've never owned a 444 is the horrendously slooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww twist. It was something like 1:38". It would be a very viable alternative to the 45-70 with a 1:18" twist.

I'm confused, I thought the Microgroove barrels had a 1 in 38" twist and the more recent Ballard rifles one had a 1 in 20" twist.

[HangFireW8]

I'm confused, I thought the Microgroove barrels had a 1 in 38" twist and the more recent Ballard rifles one had a 1 in 20" twist.

They do.

HF

[JLDickmon]

the only reason I've never owned a 444 is the horrendously slooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww twist. It was something like 1:38". It would be a very viable alternative to the 45-70 with a 1:18" twist.
the later ones use a 1:20

that's one of the issues I have with mine.. the microgroove barrels also tend to run oversize.. mine slugs out at nearly .434

[Four Fingers of Death]

I never really got around to working out proper lead boolit loads in my old 75' Microgroove 444, but while I was working on it, I saw a recent production one that was nicely finished, had a 1 in 20" Ballard barrel and really appealed to me, so I bought it and moved the old girl on. It was a nice old rifle, but I have that many rifles I only have room for one 444. It is almost a full time job shooting the ones I got without making it a bigger job, haha!

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

The slow twist Marlins are hopeless ~ but the caliber is very attractive.

All I did was order a 1:16 twist blank, like Buckshot did, chamber it for 444 and hang it on my FBW single shot action. He reminded me of this rifle as he showed off his Martini in 444..

I soon found that there is nothing on the retail mold market to feed such a fast-twist rifle so I was bound to go the Custom mold line. Thus the dealings with David Mos and Paul Jones for long, heavy bullets for the long range games I enjoy so much.

Good morning,
Forrest

[Buckshot]

..............FAsmus, I too keep a large can of Green Chilies on my reloading bench :-) Dang, 500 grains! They must be about 1.75" long? I take it your rifle is throated out ...........considerably? I wasn't too intrepid loading for that 370gr boolit. No load data ya know? I'd loaded IMR3031, 4895. and 4350. Last time I shot the rifle was March 13th, 2001:shock: 47.0 grains and a bit of compression gave 1600 fps. The other loads had no chronograph data, but I'd loaded 47.0 grs of 4895, and 44.0 grs with 4cc's of Grex. I'd think that the 4895 shaded the 4350's 1600 fps by maybe 100 fps?

..............Buckshot

[FAsmus]

Buckshot;

You say -

B: I too keep a large can of Green Chilies on my reloading bench!

Dang, 500 grains! They must be about 1.75" long? I take it your rifle is throated out ...........considerably?

F: Well, not really. The chamber/throat is standard 444 ~ there being plenty of room in the case to swallow the length of the bullet and then some. The 500 grain Jones was specified by me to have a slightly longer than standard leading band such that all lube groves would be covered inside the case when seated. This protects the cartridge when shooting in windy/dusty conditions up in Quigley. - The bullet is 1.45" long.

B: I wasn't too intrepid loading for that 370gr boolit. No load data ya know? I'd loaded IMR3031, 4895. and 4350. Last time I shot the rifle was March 13th, 2001:shock: 47.0 grains and a bit of compression gave 1600 fps. The other loads had no chronograph data, but I'd loaded 47.0 grs of 4895, and 44.0 grs with 4cc's of Grex. I'd think that the 4895 shaded the 4350's 1600 fps by maybe 100 fps?

F: I got complicated in my loads. Like you say there is nothing in the books for such heavy bullets in 444 but my FBW is a smokeless action so I could experiment with fair confidence. ~ I won't detail them here, if members want "inside" loads post me PM.

Suffice to say I used regular IMR powders, surplus powders, fillers of various kinds, over-powder cards, under-bullet wads, inverted gas checks under plainbase bullets and more ~ all in the search for the best long range performance I could figure out. My 300 cases have been loaded 75 times each

At the end I settled for a moderate fillered load of IMR 4759 - providing 1230 ft/sec for the 500 grain Jones. This never shot dead-nuts short range groups but the speed didn't hammer me too bad with recoil and the velocity quickly dropped below sonic at longrange which kept the wind drift under a certain amount of control.

In my relatively light rifle (under 12 pounds) shooting the 500 grain bullet at anything over 1500 ft/sec was not indicated. - It just came back too hard and although very accurate at close range it suffered rather badly in the wind at anything much over 500 yards as compared to the competitive 45/70s and my own shooting on the same day, same conditions with two loads side-by-side.

Good morning,
Forrest