.243 Swaged Solid Copper or Brass Bullets?

[jkpq45]

Just wondering if this is possible with commerically available dies--looking for some sub-115gr .243 projectiles in solid brass or copper for a high-speed 6mm wildcat project.

Most of the swaging stuff I see is for larger-diameter, or the ever-popular .223/.224 projectiles.

Any help is appreciated,
jkpq45

[DukeInFlorida]

Copper would be too hard to swage with the type of swaging tools that we discuss here.
Brass would be patently out of the question.

Typical copper or brass solid bullets are made using a lathe (turning) type manufacturing process.

If you desire to make custom brass or copper bullets, you should look in that direction.

PLease be aware that there are federal laws regarding the metal composition of bullets. I would urge you to be sure that you are not in any violations of federal or local law while trying to do what you want to do.

[jkpq45]

Hi DukeInMaine,

I was afraid you were going to direct me to hop on the lathe... no wonder those solid-metal bullets are a buck apiece.

I assume you're discussing the use of exotic metals for special purposes? I'd stick to aluminum, copper, plastic or brass--shouldn't be any issue, but I'll certainly research it.

[jkpq45]

Updates:

Per ATF Document 5300.4, I'm not allowed to make armor piercing ammunition.

"
(B) The term "armor piercing
ammunition" means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun
and which is constructed entirely
(excluding the presence of traces
of other substances) from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys,
steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger
than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and
whose jacket has a weight of more
than 25 percent of the total weight
of the projectile."

So does that mean no solid copper projectiles? Or just no solid copper-beryllium projectiles?

[jkpq45]

And by the way, any projectile may be used in a handgun--so what's up with that clarifying statement?

[I'll Make Mine]

And by the way, any projectile may be used in a handgun--so what's up with that clarifying statement?

Hence, BATFE can swoop down on anyone they choose who makes bullets from those materials, whether they're intended for handguns or not (after all, a Contender can, with an appropriate barrel, shoot cartridges up into the range usually recommended for dangerous African game).

Still, Barnes (copper solids) and Nosler (partition bullets with very large jacket percentage compared to what we usually see or make) get away with it some way -- I think Barnes does it by making them only in large bore, heavy for bore varieties (after all, you only need a bullet like that for dangerous game anyway, right?), while Nosler may design around that 25% jacket weight limit (or both may have specific interpretations from BATF that their products are for use in rifles, not handguns, Contenders notwithstanding).

The regulation is silly anyway, IMO; it was intended to prevent production and sale of "armor piercing" handgun ammunition that might defeat police body armor -- but virtually all military rifle rounds, even loaded with cast boolits, will defeat the police armor that was in use when that regulation was promulgated, and even the military has trouble today getting their people into armor that will stop a bullet with more energy than a 7.62x39 projectile. Hence the silliness -- you can't make or sell bullets that might penetrate armor from a handgun, but nothing stops criminals from using weapons like AK-47, PSL (shoots 7.62x54r, almost double the penetration of 7.62.39), Garand, and a plethora of hunting rifles -- any of which can be cut down (illegally, but these are already criminals, remember) to become concealable without giving up enough ballistic performance to bring then down to .44 Magnum levels (and a number of which can be loaded with milsurp ammunition that has a steel core and will penetrate a significant thickness of mild steel, never mind Kevlar).

I think we're all aware, unfortunately, that the law is under no constraint to make sense, but it's still the law and going to jail for violating a silly law is embarrassing, on top of all the usual problems (not least of which is losing your right to own firearms, for life).

[bohica2xo]

6mm solids are perfectly legal, and available off the shelf from Barnes Stock # 24375

They are not "getting away with" anything. Just about any high velocity rifle bullet will go right through a level IIIA vest. A 64 grain Winchester Power Point in a factory 223 round will go through lots of things.

Buy some 75 grain Barnes banded solids & have some fun with your 6mm.

B.

[DukeInFlorida]

Not a totally true statement. What the solid bullet is made from determines it's legality. You are not allowed to make bullets from some materials, per the posting above.


6mm solids are perfectly legal, ................

[jkpq45]

I've seen internet chatter regarding "handgun round" status of .223 Remington as well as a few others that are sub-.30 caliber. Nothing so far on .243, interesting.

I may be looking into casting solid zinc boolits--wonder how fast I can push a paper-patched .243, 55-gn spire point....

[DukeInFlorida]

Take a close look at the Thompson Center Contender and Encore PISTOLS, and tell me if .243 is a pistol caliber.........

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/encore.php
http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2Contender.php

Ummmmmmm......

I'm sticking with allowed materials for my bullets.

[I'll Make Mine]

Base it on TC Contender/Encore, XP-100 and its cousins, and the few Contender competitors out there (along with the third party barrels), not to mention various "pistols" based on AR-15 and AK-47 actions, and you could make a case that any round smaller than .50 BMG is a handgun cartridge (seems to me I saw a .50 BMG pistol on YouTube, now that I think about it).

So, how *does* Barnes get away with it, since every bullet they make could be a "handgun" bullet?

[DukeInFlorida]

Ummmm

RE-read the law......

The barnes bullets are made out of copper, an allowed material..........

Brass/steel/zinc/etc NOT allowed.....

[I'll Make Mine]

Gotcha. For some reason I was under the impression that Barnes bullets were bronze -- must have conflated them with another brand sold many years ago specifically for large, dangerous game.

[PbHurler]

I.M.O.
Duke's all over this one.

+1

[DukeInFlorida]

From the Barnes web site:
"Barnes’ Banded Solids™ stop dangerous game right now! In life-threatening situations, you can depend on Banded Solids to put the largest animal down. Machined from homogenous copper/zinc alloy, these indestructible bullets won’t disintegrate or deflect on heavy bone."

--------------

The alloy is mostly copper, which makes it a legal alloy.

[jkpq45]

Hi DukeInMaine,

Sounds like you have a good handle on the AP projectile law--do you think casting Zinc bullets is a no-no? I've got a bunch of wheel weights and am in need of some super-hard, super-fast projectiles.

Thanks for the insight!
jkpq45

[I'll Make Mine]

From the Barnes web site:
Machined from homogenous copper/zinc alloy, these indestructible bullets won’t disintegrate or deflect on heavy bone."

--------------

The alloy is mostly copper, which makes it a legal alloy.

Well, I guess BATF doesn't hire many metallurgists -- where I come from, any copper/zinc alloy is called brass, which *is* on the forbidden list. Even if it's only 2% zinc, it's still #2 brass, a standard alloy (if not a very common one these days, mostly replaced by one or another bronze variety -- copper alloys with no zinc).

[PbHurler]

Startin' to follow the path of this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=165615

[BAGTIC]

Well, I guess BATF doesn't hire many metallurgists -- where I come from, any copper/zinc alloy is called brass, which *is* on the forbidden list. Even if it's only 2% zinc, it's still #2 brass, a standard alloy (if not a very common one these days, mostly replaced by one or another bronze variety -- copper alloys with no zinc).


It isn't on the banned list. The law only applies to handgun ammo.

Apparently some of our schools no longer teach English syntax.

[I'll Make Mine]

Apparently some of our schools no longer teach English syntax.

My syntax is fine. Your reading back on the thread isn't. I give up.

[DukeInFlorida]

Please CAREFULLY re-read this post, consider the interpretation implications, and then revist your assumption:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1873561&postcount=10


It isn't on the banned list. The law only applies to handgun ammo.

Apparently some of our schools no longer teach English syntax.