Win 94 and 311041, 311291

[smkummer]

I have a standard carbine pre-64 94 made in 1963 comming from gunbroker and I want to load some ammo now. I did a seach here and have an idea of some loads. What I feel I want is a load with these bullets that will give me around 1800 FPS and up. If I can get a 2-3 in. group at 100 yards, I will be happy with factory sights. I already have some 311041 bullets made but were sized at .309, I do have some 311291 that are sized at .311. Both bullets were made with wheel weights and water dropped which have a hardness of about 20 and are coming out close to 180 grains with that alloy. I have several powders for that velocity range including: 2400, 4227, 4895, BL-C2, 3031, 5744 (would rather not get hooked on this stuff because of the price). I am hoping I can find a good 2400 load but non of my manuals show a load with this powder. Thanks ahead of time guys.

Also what targets are you guys using with the buckhorn sight? That may be why these don't do as well as a post sight. I am thinking of a round sight with a outer round ring to help center the bead.

[Rick R]

I started playing around with my M94 in .30-30 this Spring, after owning it for 35 + years. If you buy the .30-30 version of the single cartridge manual that Midway, Cabela's, Gander all carry I believe that you'll find some usable data for 2400 with cast.

I'm using Lee's flat nose 170gr boolit with either 50/50 or BAC from White Label Lube and sized to .309", groups are around 1 1/2" at 100 yards using a Williams receiver sight and stock front bead. My little Chrony says I'm getting just over 1,800fps so you're probably in the right ballpark. Cleanup is a couple swipes with the Otis pull thru brush and patches.

I believe I'll be taking this rifle deer hunting this year, good luck with your "new" rifle. :)

[sundog]

3031 is a very good performer with cast in 30-30. Take a look a castpics load data and the Lyman Cast Manual.

[nekshot]

You are set. Don't yield to the temptation to get alot of molds. I have alot of money in 30 cal molds and I often end up using the 311291 in the long run. 4895,4227,bl-c2,3031 are as good as they get if that is what you have. I have good results with H414 in the 30-30 also. I don,t care for 2400 in 30-30 for mysef, but others love it.

[Char-Gar]

In the 30-30, you will find what your are looking for with 14 - 17 grains of 2400.

The size of the bead makes no difference to me. I always balance the target bull on top of the bead. I want just the thinest sliver of white possible between the two. Tiny groups can be fired this way and game killed grave yard dead.

I sight all rifles and pistol so that the bullet will slide over the top of the front sight at the given sight in range. If the range increases I will either raise the rear sight, but more often just hold higher on the target. I never want the front sight to obscure the point of impact.

Good shooting!

[smkummer]

Thanks for the comments. Yes I do have the Lyman 45th and it gives a good idea of a starting point with the 30 Rem and 303 Savage. Would the 30 Remington be closer to the 30-30 as far as case dimensions? I believe at one time one could use the same data. So I guess the Williams reciever sight mounts on the 2 small side screws on the reciever with no other mods other than maybe drifting out the rear sight? I have to do a search for a SR-42 target, or hold six oclock. Even if the black target is bigger than the front black bead, I have no idea of how someone could center the black front bead on a circular target.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

For all general purposes both bullets are the same; the only difference being the presence of a meplat on 041. I have used 291 in my Win 94's without any problem. Although several different powders can work well I have had the most success wirh 3031. I started with 25 grains and worked up to 27 which gave me the best grouping. You can go as high as 30 to 31 grains for just about factory spec if you need to. LLS

[Larry Gibson]

4895, 3031 and RL7 will all be excellent powders as will 748 and H335 on the ball side. However, if you want max performance take a look at LeveRevolution powder. Do a search for the research I did with that powder in the 30-30 with several cast bullets. LeveRvolution is currently the powder I use with my own 311041HP 30-30 loads in both my M94s.

As my eyes got older I found the 8" bullseye 50 yard pistol target works well for me at 100 yards with issue sights.

Larry Gibson

The info is in; http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=115657&highlight=LeveRevolution

[45-70marlin]

I use the lyman 311041 bullet with 18.5 gr. 2400 in my win.94 and it shoots really good. I hit tin cans all day long at 110 yds. I use the sites like char-gar says. The new lyman 49 manual says 19.0 gr. 2400 is max for this bullet. Book says it will do 1900 fps.

[smkummer]

Just bought the 49th Lyman manual and 2400 was listed as stated. I have both the 311041 and 311291 loaded with about 18 grains of 2400. I also loaded some Serria 150 and some Hornandy 170 grain with BL-C(2) to gauge if I can do as well as them. I have ammo ready, now waiting for the UPS truck to show up. FWIW, all pre-64 Win. 94 models are on the C&R list.

Larry, outstanding work with the leveRevolution powder and 30-30 bullets. It appears that this caliber looses nothing to a well cast boolit! It appeard that most of your testing involved a 24 in. barrel and I am guessing that maybe a 100 FPS loss with a 20 in. barrel?

A question was raised about the strength of a pre-64 and post 64 actions. Of course all data posted was for all 30-30 chambered guns. I do remember reading a winchester employee account of the change over at winchester during that time. When testing the new model 94 action, it held its headspace significantly longer than the pre-64 rifle. This was an article in either one of the gun magazines or american rifleman.

[smkummer]

OK, first group with Sierra 150 RN and 35 grains of BL-C(2) was 3/4 in. at fifty yards with factory buckhorn sights on a scoped target. So the gun can shoot but still trying to work with a decent target as my 100 yard targets have too small of a black center and is fully covered by the front bead. Second group was over 2 in. at 50 with 17.5 grains 2400 and 311041 sized at .309. Again, if I had decent sights or a correct target, that would really help. Next session will be to put the front bead at the 6 oclock at 100 yards.

[Omnivore]

Do not cover the bulls eye with the front bead. As stated earlier, hold the bead just under the bull. You can aim very precisely that way. Once you find a load that groups well, you adjust you rear sight accordingly for POI. Do not cover your POI with you front sight, and you will find happiness with that bead sight.

[Four Fingers of Death]

smkummer,

If you have copies of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, the Lyman 45th, or the Lyman 46th edition manuals, check the cast data for the .30 Remington and/or .303 Savage. These two cartridges are the same caliber (.308) and close enough to the .30 W.C.F. in case capacity to use the 2400 data. Of course, start low and work up.

On my Model 94 carbines I don't really have a problem with the rear sight, it is the front. The 1/16" diameter bead covers about 9-3/4 M.O.A. @ 100. That's larger than the black on the reduced high power targets I normally use at 100, so I now use a SR-42 center. The black is large enough (12-9/16") to permit me to center the front bead on the black.

PB

I use and old target pistol shooting trick and set sights for 'area aiming', ie, tip of the fore sight just clearing the base of the bull with a tad of daylight between. Better sight picture, no optical illusion caused by the round bull being focussed on directly. Mind you on my 1903 Sringfield that I am still trying to tame, I'm totally at sea. Betwwen the difficulty adaoting to the sights and the fact that I have been working for weeks trying to clear copper fouling left by spo (stoopid previous owner), I'm getting a tad tired of it.

I must dust off my pre 64 94 Winchester and put in somerange time with it.

[smkummer]

OK, for now, 10 grans of Unique was sure a fun load easily shooting 2 in. groups at 50 and that was with me covering the bull, I am guessing 1500 FPS. The 18 grains of 2400 was not as accurate. I will sometime go to the 6 oclock hold but will have to adjust the sights even higher. I was blasting a 4 in. empty peanut can at 50 yards with ease. Lots of fun and really cheap shooting with a gas check 311041 bullet.

[Dan Cash]

Don't worry about where the bullets strike as long as they are on the paper. Be consistent, develop tight clusters of bullet holes. Then, you can adjust the sights to move that clulster where you want it. A center hold with a sight that obscures the enter will never give good results.

[Char-Gar]

I got my first instruction in riflecraft when I was about 6 from my Great Uncle who had been a Marine sniper in WWI. Next came Boy Scout camp. Then I went through instruction at an NRA small bore program. I then shoot smallbore and then highpower competion for many years and received coaching all along the way.

From day one onward, I was taught to balance the bull on top of the front sight with a sliver of white between them. Nobody every told me to cover the bull with any part of the front sight.

Where did you get the idea of covering the bull with the front sight bead? This is an all new concept to me. Did somebody tell you do do it that way, or did you figure it out yourself. At any rate, it is a habit you need to break, if you want to do fine shooting with iron sights.

Just consider that some friendly coaching from an old fud who has spent well over 60 years learning riflecraft.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I get that at the pistol club all of the time, shooters painting the foresight white or putting in a different foresight that shows up better against the black bullseye. Hard to convince them it works better aiming just below the bull.

[runfiverun]

well i guess i'll pile on.
just put the target on top of the front sight.
your boolit should hit on top of the front sight,goes for revolvers/pistols too.
if you want it to hit behind the dot get a globe front sight and shoot into the little hole.

[Char-Gar]

I guess I am going to have to reconcile myself to the fact that very few of today's shooters have had any formal instruction in the basics of rifle and pistolcraft. Most start out with scopes and don't know much or anything about sight picture, elevation and windage.

So much of young life has dropped out of American traditions and practices, that this should not suprise me. This is not the country and culture in which I grew up. In the world in which I grew up, avery kid had a 22 rifles and received instruction in how to shoot it effectively and safely. Somewhere along the way, all learned sight picture, breath control, trigger control, windage and elevation. Many never practiced enough to be accomplished with the rifle, but they were all exposed to the basics one way or another.

[Char-Gar]

well i guess i'll pile on.
just put the target on top of the front sight.
your boolit should hit on top of the front sight,goes for revolvers/pistols too.
if you want it to hit behind the dot get a globe front sight and shoot into the little hole.

Well, if you are shooting for a score, you still hold at the bottom of the bull, and adjust your sights to the bullets go into the 10/X ring.

We learned long, long ago, that smaller groups and better scores were to be had with the bottom/6 O'Clock hold. I good man with a good receiver/peep sight can shoot groups and scores everybit as good as he can with a scope. I shoot smallbore competition for years and the only time a scope (20X Lyman Targetspot) helped was outdoors at longer ranges. We did not need the magnification of the target, but we could see the mirage in the scope and that would enable us to dope the wind much better than flags. The wind can blow those target velocity 22 LRs around at 100 meters. At 50 yards or less and indoors that scope was more of a bother than a help. You could watch your heart beat as the cross hairs twitched. You ended up trying to get the shot off between heart beats. With irons your heart was still beating, but you couldn't see it.

For field shooting, I want the bullets to just slide over the front sight. I just hold higher on the critter at longer ranges.

[sundog]

I dislike bead front sights. Greatly. In fact I have a particular M94 (a favorite or several) on which I pulled the brass bead out of the sight and filed it into a tapered forward post. Target sets on the post, trigger gets pulled, target gets hit. That preference comes from many years of varied types of markmanship training (civilian and military) starting at a young age, practice, and practical application. Posts and appertures work, beads suck.

Aim small, hit small.

Ah, yes, and 'holding daylight' works REALLY GOOD.

[Char-Gar]

I have no bead front sights of anykind either. I used the old Sourdough post of some kind or another. I have also modified some like Corky to resemble them.

[smkummer]

Gentleman, I will soon go to using the front bead on a 6 oclock hold. Its been my understanding that the bead front sight was to be placed on your target and in this case it would be a deer sized target. Pre WWII target Colts came with either a post or bead sight, of which the bead was shown in the middle of the target with the post sight at the six oclock hold. I am having to pull the elevator to its middle position with the window slot at the top, so using the six oclock hold with this sight at 100 yards will mean that I will have to go to the second highest position using the 1500 FPS 170 cast bullet.

[Char-Gar]

I have several old Colts with bead front sights and U notch rear. This combo is not as easy to use as the Patridge front and square notch rear. Illustrations are done by artists and not shooters. Due to the low velocity od cast bullet loads the rear elevation can get quite high requiring the use of a lower front sight. Just part of the cast bullet game.

[smkummer]

Success with Lyman 311291 and about 10.4 grains Unique. I am guessing 1550 FPS and for 100 yards I don't need 1800 or more FPS. The small target is 25 yards using the 6 oclock hold and is six shots which a quarter almost covers. Below that is a 2 1/2 in. 3 shot group at 100 yards using the 6 oclock hold, after which I raised the rear sight to its second highest notch and it was then printing in the lower black at 100 yards with a 6 oclock hold. Very sweet shooting load. I may just stick with this bullet as its my competition bullet out of the 03A3 sized also to .311. I tried downloading from my I phone and no luck yet.

Whats old is new again with 32-40 velocities and accuracy.

[jh45gun]

I use 17 grains of 2400 with good results.