What A Lousy Mess...

[BCB]

I am shooting the 358429 lubed with Carnauba and 18.0 grains of WC-680…

After about 75 rounds, sometimes less, the cylinder will turn extremely hard…

There is black residue all around the cylinder and everywhere else in the vicinity of the cylinder—what a mess…

I wonder which of the 3 components of the mentioned load might be causing all of this grunge?...

Or a combination of all?...

Good accurate load, but a cleaning nightmare…

Thanks…BCB

[725]

Hard to say without seeing it in person. My investigation would include:

Does solvent, like Ed's Red, wash away the residue? Inordenent scrubbing might mean wax build up.
How soft is your boolit? Much leading?
Does other ammo have the same effect? Bore - cylinder size issues.
Is barrel / cylinder gap correct?
Ever try a different lube? What was the result?
How about boolit size? Go up or down in size to see effect.

[btroj]

Where is the friction coming from? Is it I buildup on the face of the cylinder running on the end of the barrel? Is it from junk getting onto the end of the cylinder/crane and not allowing the cylinder to spin freely, assuming it is a double action.

We need a bit more info to know where the problem is in order to help.

My gut instinct is that it is a slow burning powder that is leaving a fair amount of junk on the end of the cylinder. It is gumming up the front end of the cylinder, that is the area to watch.

What are you lubing the cylinder pin with? If you put a drop of oil or ATF on the end of the cylinder where it rotate on the pin does it spin easier?

I would personally look at the lubrication of the gun, the powder, or the lube. The powder could be leaving excessive residue, the lube is one that could leave a gummy residue, and the lubrication of the gun may not be adequate to float away the stuff left by firing.

[BCB]

The cylinder gap is 0.008”…

The boolits are sized 0.358” which has always been good. No leading to amount to anything—maybe a light streak at the muzzle. Nothing at the forcing cone or thereabout…

I remove the cylinder and thoroughly clean with brake cleaning solvent and then a touch of oil and the cylinder spins beautifully…

It is “stuff” getting on the “thing” (sorry, don’t know correct name) that the cylinder spins on…

A bit of solvent and a q-tip works wonders and all is good again…

Might try a different lube the next bunch of boolits. Maybe do the liquid Alox trip—hate it though as it is messy to apply…

BCB

[BCB]

Off to my shooting range to "hog" it all up again...

Oh well...

BCB

[ShooterAZ]

I had this same problem, and my solution was switching lubes. My S&W 686 was turning black on the entire cylinder and crane area. Go softer, try White Label BAC or 50/50. It seems that certain combinations of powders and lubes just don't go together well.

[bobthenailer]

In my opinion useing the long disconued WW680 powder may be the problem , its usually too slow burning for best performance in a 357 mag revolver and perhaps it has deteraited some ?
I known several people who used it in the 357 max SS pistol with excellent results ,but its report is louder than most powders and has a big fireball and the end of the barrel at dusk.

[Moonie]

I agree, WW680 is way too slow to burn efficiently in a 357 Magnum. I used it in 357 max and a 445 supermag, great for that but too slow for the 357 or 44 magnum size cases.

[canyon-ghost]

Carnuba lubes can be dissolved easily with acetone from the hardware store. I think the guys are right about the powder being messy. Might need a more modern pistol powder like Unique (it's coarse).

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: If you don't wipe the excess lube off the bullet base, or the load is so slow as to have 'blow-by' then, you get a mess blown forward like that. Subsonics will cause that, magnums shouldn't.

[runfiverun]

680 is the same as aa-1680 and it works very well in the 357 maximum,375 super mag,445 super mag.
680 is about two steps slower than h-110 it's on the slow side of 4227.
it's too slow for the 357 magnum you are getting powder build up all over everything.
switch to a faster powder for the little case.
use the 680 in your 25-20.

[ShooterAZ]

I'm not sure on the powder WW680, I have never used it. My lousy mess occurred with CR and Titegroup. Switched lubes and it went away.

[Larry Gibson]

Two problems; 1st, as mentioned the 680 powder is way too slow and is not purning efficiently. I suggest a more traditional powder like Unique, 2400, Bluedot or similar. 2nd; is the "carnauba" Carnauba Red or a home made concoction? A switch, also mentioned, to a known lube (if a home made concoction) like BAC, a NRA 50/50 lube or Carnauba Red would tell the tale on the lube.

Larry Gibson

[rexherring]

I've had the same issue with to slow of a powder. I've been loading AA #9 or AA #7 for the .357 with great luck, lower flash and good accuracy. also, RandyRat's TAC #1 is a great lube with lower smoke.

[btroj]

Keep a bottle of light oil with you at the range. Add a drop to the binding area every 50 rounds or so.

Best answer is a better powder for the application. 2400 works very well for what you are doing.

[Papa smurf]

Its tht lube !

[BCB]

The handgun is a Security-Six which is double action...

The Carnauba is from White Label Lube Company...

I think the WC-680 might be the main culpret as I realize it is probably too slow to be used effectively in the 357 Magnum...

BUT, it is cheap and I am loading 50 rounds for a bit over $2.00...

I am going to try a different powder- a faster burner, or at least a bit faster than Unique...

Is it common for the Carnauba Red to cause this type of grunge?...

Thanks...BCB

[fecmech]

With an .008" cyl gap and a powder that's not finished burning till 6" past the muzzle(:kidding:) IMO you are sandblasting the top of the crane ahead of the cylinder with much unburned powder after the bullet crosses the gap. When it hits the crane it's going to fly off in many directions and one direction is between the cylinder and crane. That combine with the lube residue is just binding things up quickly. I'd bet that a max load of 296/H110 or 2400 behind 358429 and CR wouldn't bind that cylinder in a 100 shots.

[btroj]

I ran many, many rounds thru my GP100 which is very similar to your revolver with no problems.

I bet that if you used a better lubricant on the cylinder pin it would help. A drop of good oil on the end of the cylinder where it meets the pin will flow into the gap and help.

I have begun using STP oil treatment on my cylinder pins. It works quite well. My feeling is that areas that pick up grunge Ned a fair amount of oil as the oil needs to be able to flow even after picking up that grunge.

Changing powder should help a bunch. You would be able to go over 1000 rounds without having the troubles you are describing.

[BCB]

With an .008" cyl gap and a powder that's not finished burning till 6" past the muzzle(:kidding:) IMO you are sandblasting the top of the crane ahead of the cylinder with much unburned powder after the bullet crosses the gap. When it hits the crane it's going to fly off in many directions and one direction is between the cylinder and crane. That combine with the lube residue is just binding things up quickly. I'd bet that a max load of 296/H110 or 2400 behind 358429 and CR wouldn't bind that cylinder in a 100 shots.

What should the cylinder gap be?...

[fecmech]

What should the cylinder gap be?...
Not being critical of the gap per se. Just trying to illustrate the point that you had high pressure gas loaded with powder particles escaping through that gap and impinging on your revolvers crane in front of the cylinder. The big problem as I see it is the powder is not all gaseous due to it's too slow for application use and clogging up your crane and cylinder. I would suggest as others that powders such as 2400, 296/H110 would be better. If you were then to get the binding cylinder after 50 rds I would be looking for a gun problem.

[BCB]

Well, got the Security-Six all cleaned up and ready to do some more shooting…

Went to a fast burner—Scot 453 and a slower burner—2400…

I am a bit uncertain that the 296/110, 4227, Lil’Gun and maybe even 2400 will be much slower than WC-680…

I have a burn rate chart (246 powders listed) and it lists 296/110 @ 112—4227 @118, and 2400 @ 101…

The same chart lists AA-1680 @ 117, But, W-680 is @ 124...

So, I am trying 2400 as it seems to be a bit faster, at least according to the chart, than WC-680…

Same lube, same primers and same everything else, except the different powders…

We shall see what we shall see…

Thanks…BCB

[MT Gianni]

If you are playing with the slow pistol powders, one thing not mentioned is the need for a heavy crimp.

[BCB]

Just returned from my shooting range...

Fired 25 rounds loaded with 6.0 grains of Scot 453 and 25 rounds loaded with 12.0 grains of 2400...

Cylinder spins freely. Not much residue on the stainless steel frame or thereabout...

Appears to have been the WC-680 powder...

I use it some with my 445 Super Magnum, but it is even dirty there if I remember correctly as I havent' shoot in in a year or so...

I always thought the grunge was just from the lube, but it seems the Carnauba Red is not the problem, but the WC-680 is...

Learn something every day I guess...

Only problem, that load using WC-680 was very very accurate from the Security-Six...

BCB

[atr]

I was shooting my .357 S&W and encounter the same thing....hand loads with 4227 and the powder was leaving residue which interfered with the cylinder turning....i.e. dirty powder residue.
atr

[fecmech]

Only problem, that load using WC-680 was very very accurate from the Security-Six...
With 358429 and 13-14 grs of 2400 or 15-16 grs of 296/H110 I have always had Bullseye 10 ring accuracy@ 50 yds with the edge going to 296. This is in a lot of .357 guns. I would be very surprised if your Ruger would not perform as well or better than W680.

[leftiye]

Tain't the C-Red, I've never had that happen, and C-Red is all I use. It's the 680 as R5R said. Way too slow for .357. Blue Dot forever! And it's accurate, too. Wanna sell that 680? It outperforms AA 1680 in some apps.