Match Questions for BPCRS shooters

[Dragoon 45]

At our local BPCRS matchs we have a core group that shoot regularly and another group that shoots occassionally. We don't get that many new shooters.

For your local matchs what works best a Sat or a Sun?

What have you done to increase attendence?

I would like to see our local matchs grow in size so I am looking for suggestions that I as a shooter could do or recommend to our match director to try.

Thanks in Advance.

[rbertalotto]

I shoot BPCR but I don't run the matches. But I have been running four Egg Shoots a year for the past 18 years. At one time I ran them on Saturday and attendance was spotty. I moved them to Sunday many years ago and now I have to limit participation. The goal is to finish the shoot by 2pm. This lets folks get to family cookouts, birthday parties etc without too much pushback from the spouse... :-)
Hope this helps!

WHAT THE HECK IS AN EGG SHOOT....www.rvbprecision.com

[Ramar]

rbertalotto,
I wanna be an egg shooter! Boy does that sound like fun.

Ramar

[Lead pot]

The busted egg shells sure bring in the Turkeys and coons for the clean up [smilie=w:

[Gunlaker]

At our off-hand matches the muzzle loader guys have a stage where they shoot at marshmallows on toothpicks at 25m. They are surprisingly good for guys shooting round balls. :mrgreen:

Chris.

[Lead pot]

I hope they used the little ones Chris

[rbertalotto]

If you want to see accuracy....A tie breaker is 1/2" "DumDum lollipops at 200 and 300 yards. And the boys with the custom rifles will hit four or five in a row. We're talking three football fields away and a 1/2" target. So that is a 1/8" (.125) group! And unlike Benchrest Competition where you can let the group form where it may, you have to actually hit a target............Simply amazing shooting!

[Lead pot]

There is a big difference between scope fitted high power custom rifles and a ML with fixed barrel sights and shot off hand.

By the way, Sundays work best for out blk round ball shoots for us too.
Lot of people still have to work or they need to do their running around on Saturday.

And we all bring something to snack on after the shoot. Like a pot of beans, sausage , jerky we make or what ever. It brings in a crowd mostly to eat:drinks:

[Simonpie]

BPCR is pretty equipment intensive. To get more shooters involved you need a loaner gun/scope/ammo and a mentor. Anyone with a gun to sell can use a "rent to own" scenario that gets new shooters in to try it out. "The first hit is free" applies to all sorts of things.

[Lead pot]

I always take two rifles to the range. There is always an interest in what I'm shooting.
Mostly you have to ask, do you want to try it? I very seldom get turned down and it has increased the black powder shooters at the range I shoot on.
A lot of the young Kids that come with there Father and Mother in one case have never seen a Sharps or Trapdoor other then maybe in the Movies and I always ask there Parent and the young one if they like to shoot the rifle and I never have been turned down.
I always have some rounds loaded for the .40-70 or the .40-65 with a light .40 260 grain bullet over a light load of 1.5 KIK for them to shoot.
They always leave with a big smile on there face after shooting the Shiloh or High wall.

[Gunlaker]

I hope they used the little ones Chris

They use the standard sized ones. Even so, I'm still pretty impressed that some of these guys can shoot a flintlock well enough to hit them pretty reliably off-hand. I guess that's about the accuracy you'd have wanted for squirrel hunting. And about the same range too I suppose :-)

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I always take two rifles to the range. There is always an interest in what I'm shooting.
Mostly you have to ask, do you want to try it? I very seldom get turned down and it has increased the black powder shooters at the range I shoot on.
A lot of the young Kids that come with there Father and Mother in one case have never seen a Sharps or Trapdoor other then maybe in the Movies and I always ask there Parent and the young one if they like to shoot the rifle and I never have been turned down.
I always have some rounds loaded for the .40-70 or the .40-65 with a light .40 260 grain bullet over a light load of 1.5 KIK for them to shoot.
They always leave with a big smile on there face after shooting the Shiloh or High wall.

I try and do the same thing. I think that it brings much needed new shooters into the sport. Few can resist the alure of a single shot loaded with black powder.

Chris.

[TXGunNut]

Works well on a public or club range as well, especially with a fronstuffer.
Back on topic I'd love to do the Tulsa shoots but it makes for a long drive and generally a motel bill.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Let's face it. BPCR shooting as practiced in the nationals is a lot of work. It is also very intense with little time to spare. I spotted for a friend at three regional matches and never shot in one myself even though I had bought a rifle for the purpose of shooting the matches. It is also lots of work. When we had our range we shot a match that was simple and lots of fun. We shot at 200 yards. The steel targets were downsized buffalo cutouts with nylon ropes attached so they could be reset when knocked over. We shot six rounds at whatever position you prefer. You could even use cross sticks. If you downed all six and no one else did,you won. If there were ties all remiaing shots were fired offhand. I know it sounds easy, at least that is what I thought untill I tried it. The rifles were single shot, outside hammer at least .375 cal. black powder of course The match was started at 9:am and was usually over by noon. We had two targets that helped to speed things along. We alternated by shooting three times on the left then changing to the right target. This match didn't require expensive rifles or a hundred loaded rounds. Ten rounds would usually do. At one match I needed one more shot to break a tie, I borrowed a round from the man I was shooting against and I won the match. Did I feel bad about it? No, not really. Of all the competitive shooting I have done, that match was by far the most fun. There is no thrill in target shooting like standing on your hind legs while trying to keep that eleven pound rifle from waving around, pulling the trigger and hearing the clang, then see the target fall. When the match was over, you didn't have a large batch of brass to clean. The match was held the secound Sunday of the month and I couldn't wait for the next one. I do wish I had made a vidio of the match.

[Dragoon 45]

We shot our final match of the year Sunday. We will start back up in March. It looks like the State Match will be at Arcadia again next year, probably in May. The Match schedules with exact dates will probably not be out till early next year.


Works well on a public or club range as well, especially with a fronstuffer.
Back on topic I'd love to do the Tulsa shoots but it makes for a long drive and generally a motel bill.

[semtav]

We shot our final match of the year Sunday. We will start back up in March.
That's just crazy. Can't believe you Okies don't want to shoot in the winter. Not like its real cold or something !!! We just Started our matches back up since it rained. We'll go all winter.

[Dragoon 45]

Our deer season starts end of this month and runs through Jan. If we had a match we would be lucky to have 3 shooters show up. All the rest would be out in the woods. When deer season starts around here nothing is allowed to interfer with it, to include shooting matchs, weddings, births, anniversaries, football, etc. Just the way folks are around here.


That's just crazy. Can't believe you Okies don't want to shoot in the winter. Not like its real cold or something !!! We just Started our matches back up since it rained. We'll go all winter.

[Texantothecore]

I try and do the same thing. I think that it brings much needed new shooters into the sport. Few can resist the alure of a single shot loaded with black powder.

Chris.

A Civil War reenactors group had 6 or 7 people with their MLs at the St. Louis county fair one year and they handed you black powder, probably 10 or 15 grains, and you loaded the rifle and shot it. No roundball. It was a great thrill.

A few months later I had my first of several Traditions Hawken in hand. Still have it and will be going out with it in a few weeks.

The lines for each guy were 30 to 40 people deep and there were a whole lot of people who got their first taste of blackpowder at this fair.

[Hiwall55]

We shot our Last Buffalo Shoot last Sunday at Chillocothe, IL. My buddy got 1st,I got 2nd,He got 3rd with his 2nd gun. . Great way to end the year. Sundays work the best, at our Home club. we have tried Saturdays. www.hancockcountygunclub.com Everyone Welcome on Sundays at Public matches

[Don McDowell]

BPCR is pretty equipment intensive. To get more shooters involved you need a loaner gun/scope/ammo and a mentor. Anyone with a gun to sell can use a "rent to own" scenario that gets new shooters in to try it out. "The first hit is free" applies to all sorts of things.
We hear this alot, but is it really anymore equipment intensive than CAS shooting? At least with bpcr you can get into it with one rifle, some homemade crossticks , and a pair of binoculars. Contrasted to CAS you need a rifle two handguns, and a shotgun, plus gunbelts, and costumes, just to get started.
I do think that clubs can do themselves a big favor by seeking out the handi rifle shooters, allow them to shoot the sillouette matches , but not for NRA record.

[Dragoon 45]

What gets me is the number of CAS shooters who own single shots for the long range side matches they shoot. Seems like every other CAS shooter has one, but will not take the time to develop a load or understand how to get their sight settings. Then they always say "no way am I shooting BP, it is too hard to clean." Nothing I say can convince them how easy it is to clean up afterwards. That myth that BP is so much harder to clean up instead of the smokeless stuff I think is one of the big reasons we can't get many of the CAS crowd out to shoot BPCRS.


We hear this alot, but is it really anymore equipment intensive than CAS shooting? At least with bpcr you can get into it with one rifle, some homemade crossticks , and a pair of binoculars. Contrasted to CAS you need a rifle two handguns, and a shotgun, plus gunbelts, and costumes, just to get started.
I do think that clubs can do themselves a big favor by seeking out the handi rifle shooters, allow them to shoot the sillouette matches , but not for NRA record.

[Don McDowell]

Yup and when you finally get someone to pay attention and watch you clean a bpcr , they say "is that all there is to it"?...

[MikeS]

I do think that clubs can do themselves a big favor by seeking out the handi rifle shooters, allow them to shoot the sillouette matches , but not for NRA record.

Are Handi-rifles not legal for NRA competitions? I thought they had an external hammer, am I wrong? Or if not, what is it about them that makes them illegal for NRA shoots?

[Don McDowell]

What makes them not legal in NRA matches for prize or record awards is they do not follow th guide lines of being in production by the pre 1900 dates set by the NRA rules committee back in the 80's.
Check out the NRA rules on line, or for a quick easy access to the bpcr rules go to bpcr.net and find them there.

[MikeS]

Don, thanks for the quick reply. It really was just a passing curiosity, as I don't own a Handi-rifle. In fact I just bought as my first (and I hope not last) BPCR rifle a Remington rolling block that was made back in 1887. I don't think it's really setup for target competition as it is, but if/when I get into shooting targets more seriously I'll either fix it up to be more appropriate, or get a different rifle to compete with. As I'm typing this I'm waiting on the mail to arrive, as the rifle should be in today's mail.

[Don McDowell]

Not a problem Mike. The question/demand about handirifles/buffalo classics comes up several times in a year.
It always starts out the same the owner of said rifle has his/her feelers self stomped on, feels left out etc.
The answers are always the same, altho there will be some accusations that the rules are just that way because they don't want poor people to play....
But it is always pointed out that when the NRA rules were written the Handirfle in it's many forms was not even in production, it bears no followable lineage to anything that was in production in the late 1800's.
Further it is oft pointed out the thing doesn't allow for practical competitive irons sight mounting, altho a malcolm scope of qualifying attributes would work, but that is going to cost as much as the rifle.
And it usually ends with the pointing out in the NRA rules that should a firearm crop up that would fit the guidelines to be eligible there is a petition process , whereby the proper research documentation and supporting statements can be presented to the rules committee.
It's also not unusual for the point to be made that 99.9% of the "buffalo" matches fully allow handirifle derivitives and smokeless powder, but with the exception of the Quigley match you seldom observe any on the firing line.
Mr/Ms Crumbledfeeling's goes away usually isn't heard from and as far as I've ever heard a petition has not been filed with the NRA rules committee....
Most bpcr shooters I know would be tickled to have the handi folks come along get a start see what the game involves and go from there..
I almost always have a spare rifle and enough ammo for someone to shoot a match, and I know several other folks do as well. I know lots of folks have been offered the free use of the equipment, to date, have had no takers.
Almost had a taker once, but he bought a rifle and had brought his own ammo before I got there...

[EDG]

The BPCR sport by rule has narrowed participation and tends to discourage new comers. Then the super rude BP only fanatics tend to finish off most newbies.

As I see it, these are some of the barriers to wider participation.
1. Specialized rifles - both design of mechanism and calibers used
2. Black powder only requiring significant handloading skill
3. No readily available ammunition without handloading
4. The usual equipment and competition fanatics tend to discourage newbies.
5. The range takes up a lot of acreage
6. The targets are expensive to acquire and set up
7. As a result of 5&6 the ranges tend to be few and far between.
8. Even the bullets are not readily available so learning to cast is required.
9. The matches require a lot of ammo and time.
10. Time, money, gas, casting, reloading, tolerating fanatics - not a good combination to attract new shooters.
11. There are other forms of shooting that people enjoy just as much with less hassle.
12. Some of us just do not have any interest in black powder.

In general the proponents of BPCR will reject any changes to "their" buffalo shooting game.

[Don McDowell]

The BPCR sport by rule has narrowed participation and tends to discourage new comers.
First off the NRA bpcr sports started with the current rule 30 some odd years ago
Then the super rude BP only fanatics tend to finish off most newbies.
I've yet to ever see that at a match

As I see it, these are some of the barriers to wider participation.
1. Specialized rifles - both design of mechanism and calibers used
Nothing specialized at all about the rifles allowed by NRA rule, and nothing different in the "buffalo" matches
2. Black powder only requiring significant handloading skill
Blackpowder reloading is far simpler than smokeless , a tenth of a grain won't lock your gun up , like smokeless will, a 20 degree temp change won't cause irratic pressures like smokeless
3. No readily available ammunition without handloading
Not so, there are numerous available factory cast bullet loads in 45-70,38-55 and even 40-65, but if you think handloading is expensive...
4. The usual equipment and competition fanatics tend to discourage newbies.
It's extremely unlikely you've ever witnessed that at a match . Matter of fact it's quite the opposite in the real world, or on the internet
5. The range takes up a lot of acreage
BPCR sillouette doesn't take any more range space than Hipower, same with target rifle
6. The targets are expensive to acquire and set up
Same price or less than smokeless ,regular steel will work, where smokeless needs AR to keep bullets from penetrating. And in the paper target games the target sizes are very similar the major difference being in scoring ring size and diameter, both types cost about 50 a thousand
7. As a result of 5&6 the ranges tend to be few and far between.
Insurance, zoning and sale of the land that ranges sat on, have a bigger affect, and are well documented to be a bigger problem
8. Even the bullets are not readily available so learning to cast is required.
Again not so. Cheycast, Montana Bullet Works, Big Sky Bullets and Buffalo Arms and a handful of smaller guys cast and sell match ready bullets in a good assortment of styles and calibers
9. The matches require a lot of ammo and time.
Yup but so does skeet, CAS, Handgun sillouette, 3gun IDP...
10. Time, money, gas, casting, reloading, tolerating fanatics - not a good combination to attract new shooters.
If that's the case how do you explain the growing numbers of shoots setting attendance records every year?
11. There are other forms of shooting that people enjoy just as much with less hassle.
Yup and some do the bpcr plus those other venues
12. Some of us just do not have any interest in black powder.
So you're posting in the blackpowder cartridge forum because?

In general the proponents of BPCR will reject any changes to "their" buffalo shooting game.
Again a false hood based on more falsehoods. Plus a confusion of bpcr match types. "Buffalo" matches are generally any single shot rifle with a safe powder charge and cast bullets, some even allow for gas checks. NRA regs do stipulate the types of arms that can be used, and the sights , and people that compete in those matches do so willingly, as the folks that participate in other forms of NRA competitions. Wanna tell us about how easy it is to just grab a rifle off the rack and head to Camp Perry?


Response is in bold type.

[MikeS]

EDG: Are you serious? Many other types of matches require LOTS of ammo, like a USPSA shoot, generally you need around 150 rounds of ammo. The rifles aren't any more specialized than rifles / pistols are for other matches. But, just like other matches, just because one competitor might be shooting a $6k specialized rifle doesn't mean that a beginner can't get started with a much less expensive setup.

It sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses to not get involved. Generally speaking internet forums aren't as warm and open as matches are. I've yet to go to any kind of match BPCR or otherwise where the competitors weren't willing to help out another competitor, beginner or not. I was at a bullseye style match (it wasn't an official NRA bullseye match) and I was having trouble with my pistol, and 3 other shooters there offered to loan me one of their spare pistols! Before you put down BPCR matches as cold unwelcoming places you really should go to one or two of them, and check them out. You'll probably even get offers to borrow a rifle so you can join in on the fun!

I am curious about one thing you said, that you have no interest in black powder at all, if that's the case, why would you want to participate in either a BPCR match, or BPCR forum? Or do you mean that you're interested in BPCR using pyrodex, or another sub, if so, then that's a different story, but don't expect to go to a BPCR anything and expect to be welcomed with open arms when you only want to shoot smokeless powder?

[drcook]

EDG would you expect to go to a sanctioned NHRA drag race with a bicycle ? How about a Nascar race with a pedal car ? Maybe that football game that I bet you plant your behind on the couch and watch in a tennis dress ?

Football stadiums take up a lot of land and cost a lot. So do dragstrips and Nascar tracks.

Every sport has its rules. The rules of BPCR were come up with to simulate shooting during a specific time frame.

Even my DPMS .308 rifles with a tactical scopes on it total out about $2000.00, right about the price of an entry level Shiloh. Add in the same reloading presses, the cost of brass, the cost of bullets, the cost of primer, I use the same Fed 210M primers.

Now you can go to a gong shoot and fire a handi-rifle loaded up with smokeless rounds that you bought in the big box at Cabelas. That is not against the rules.

If you want to play at a higher degree of difficulty, to some degree you will have to pay both monetarily and developing skills. It doesn't matter what sport. People that have chosen to play decided to do the investment in it to achieve the equipment and expertise.

So the choice is to make a decision to invest in it and not b*tch about the investment or to otherwise get over it.

[TXGunNut]

Every sport has its rules. The rules of BPCR were come up with to simulate shooting during a specific time frame. -drcook


Thank you. I'm interested in doing just that and visited a BPCR match in Tulsa awhile back. The "rude" shooters and match director thoughtfully answered every question I asked, offered to let me handle and shoot their rifles and wanted to do whatever it took to help me come shoot a match. Awesome bunch of guys in my book! I'm not terribly interested in being a BPCR competitor but I want to shoot period weapons using period ammo, as close as I can get anyway. I think shooting period weapons with period ammo is like shaking hands with our ancestors.

[Simonpie]

Ah yes, dicouraging newbies.

last month, at an ASSRA match, I broke the firing pin on my rolling block. Someone I'd never met took me to his home and made me a new pin on his lathe. While he was making it, he said, "this will take a while, here's a benchrest gun, ammo, bags, go to the range and shoot." Then next day he shows up to give me my new pin (no $$ involved) and get his rifle back. It turns out, he doesn't even know my name.

Somehow, I don't feel discouraged.

[.22-10-45]

What makes them not legal in NRA matches for prize or record awards is they do not follow th guide lines of being in production by the pre 1900 dates set by the NRA rules committee back in the 80's.
Check out the NRA rules on line, or for a quick easy access to the bpcr rules go to bpcr.net and find them there.

However...they they seem to have a case of amnesia when it comes to the Stevens 44 1/2 action..an action built circa 1900 to 1916.

[Don McDowell]

Could very well be, or it could be that there were 44 1/2's around and serviceable, so in order to include more rifles for the the fledgling sport.....Altho the time line for those 44's fell close enough to the time period and were known to have been used in the earlier competions.
And the Handirifle was not even in production at the time the sport was sanctioned, so not much way to include it.. Rules allow for it to be included,,, just needs someone to present the proper paper work and documentation to the rules committee...

[Hiwall55]

ITS A GAME OF RIFLEMEN Amen Brother!

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If a guy simply "isn't interested in BP", why would he show up at a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette match? ....and why P&M about the rules becasue he doesn't have a rifle that qualifies, or he doesn't reload, or he doesn't cast? NOBODY ever said that BPCRS was for "everybody". Actually, it is a game that seperates the true shooters from the wannabe cry babies. Its a game that requires that you know your rifle, sights, how to cast, load, dope wind, mirage, and light. Its a game of RIFLEMEN!

THE P&Mer has quite a hardon for Rifleman match shooters.

The worst thing we can do is divide ourselves, over Pyrodex or BP, or what ever. I wont use the stuff myself have seen several ruined barrels from it due to the fact the shooter treated like it was bp and did not clean the barrel well enough before storage, a couple wet Moose Milk patches did not suffice. OUCH.

Too badmouth successful match shooters smacks of nothing but Envy. Sad little fella.

As was mentioned BPCR Silhouette or Long Range is not for everyone, lots of work and dedication, Sometimes you gota ask yourself if it is worth it. Heck I ask myself that question at least once every season.:roll:

I missed a national Long Range championship by 9 points this year, a Midrange scope national Championship by 3 Points due to a cross fire I made day one I lost a 10, if big iff, had not of cross fired I would of won 8 points! Lost the medal match at Cody by .3 inches and lost the Polecat by a hairs breath and a lose scope front base! But I shot some exceptional scores in Phoenix this year then came home and spent a week in the Hospt with Pneumonia-again.

I encourage everone to shoot no matter what, I do not encourage everyone too take up match shooting it takes a lot of hard work, and it is not for everyone.

Lot of good folks on this board, several can test one's mettle, haha, now that I have watched a Moderator start a peeing contest then hammer at what he calls the trouble makers, The guy went out to start a fight, since he was bored? and show everyone on the forum who is boss, wahhhoo I am impressed. I did not even know about it until it was over an locked, As I do not vist the forum much anymore.

So everyone keep shooting no mater what you like handi-s or what ever, smokless, duplex-becareful that can be bomb, black or what ever, we need the shooters not the division.

Peace I am outa here!

The Lunger
KW

[kokomokid]

I would like to add to what KW said but I think he covered it well. LB

[Dragoon 45]

Guys I was hoping for suggestions on improving matches. Most of you gave some or related why some things didn't work. My thanks for that. I don't know why we got some of the P&Ming about the the sport.

The reason I asked the original question is that there is a good chance I will be the next BPCRS match director at my home club. It is not final but it appears our current match director will have to give it up due to work schedule conflicts. He will be missed. I am far from the best shooter in our club, but for whatever reason I love this oh-so challenging sport and do not want to see it disappear from our gun club.

I competed almost my entire 30 year military career with the service rifle and pistol, and shot the occassional MG competition. Our current group of BPCRS shooters are among the best I have ever shot with. They will readily help anyone and go out of their way to make a new shooter or visitor welcome. If I become the new Match Director which looks highly likely, I want to continue this tradition and more importantly I would like to expand our shooter base by growing the number of active shooters at our matches. So once again I thank you for your suggestions and comments on what works and doesn't work at your matches.

[Boz330]

Then they always say "no way am I shooting BP, it is too hard to clean." Nothing I say can convince them how easy it is to clean up afterwards. That myth that BP is so much harder to clean up instead of the smokeless stuff I think is one of the big reasons we can't get many of the CAS crowd out to shoot BPCRS.

I think a lot of this goes back to MLs which are a little more hassle to clean. Not so with the cartridge rifles.
I'm sure that there are purists in the sport that can be AHs but that sure isn't the standard from the people that I have run across. I have sure let folks shoot my rifle and ammo when the occasion has arisen. I don't see a problem with letting folks shoot smokeless or duplex as long as they understand they are not competing head to head against the BP shooters. I started with duplex because I didn't know any better but came around pretty fast when it was explained to me. Set the hook first and then reel them in.:bigsmyl2: This is easier than crack cocaine.

Bob

[drcook]

Guys I was hoping for suggestions on improving matches.

This question was asked over on the Shiloh board and I made the suggestion saying that the whole experience of the shoot needs to be dealt with.

The gong matches typically have a pretty high turnout. At the matches I have been at, they have been a social event wrapped around a shooting match, or a shooting match wrapped around a social event. I realize the gong matches usually last a weekend of more, but the ideas can be borrowed from.

A box of donuts and a pot of coffee, while it seems trivial, adds to the experience. Once during the summer you could have a cookout. I have seen some of the pistol silhouette shooters at the range I go to have a grill there and they cook hotdogs and eat lunch with each other before leaving. If the match gets to the point where the entry fee covers a donut and a hot dog, that adds to the collective value of the "experience".

A few posts back, Don said


I do think that clubs can do themselves a big favor by seeking out the handi rifle shooters, allow them to shoot the sillouette matches , but not for NRA record.

If you encouraged a class of non-standard rifles to shoot and even gave out ribbons for placing that would work. People like to get something for their efforts and handing out a blue ribbon to a guy shooting a handi-rifle or other non-approved single shot (that is in the spirit of the game) and giving the award in front of everyone sure adds a smile to someone's face and encourages them to come back and bring other folks. Eventually they might want to cross over, but even if they don't their attendance at each shoot benefits the shoot itself !

The range itself has to commit to the shoot. At the local range the club allows the match director to shut the main range down around noonish on the Friday before so targets can be set up and painted, etc. If the range/club doesn't give as much support to BPCR as they do to other venues, it can leave the experience wanting.

The whole thing is to get people more worth for their money and time investment. It is getting more expensive to shoot. The more "fun" that can be built into an experience the more folks will attend.

It is just like bowling leagues. People can get the same amount of pin time on their own if they choose, but the bowling leagues are a social event wrapped around a sporting event. People visit, compete with each other, eat and drink with each other (ok in a bowling alley) and get an evening or entertainment.

[Lead pot]

Your right Dave.
The competition at the Gong shoots is just as fierce as the sanctioned NRA matches. The Gong shoots are growing and the sanctioned matches are more or less declining.
One would have to ask why has the Quigley shoot grown to over 600 competitors and growing every year despite the rough bad weather conditions that are possible there.
And you dont hear the bickering and complaining before and after about rule changes or booking records and match directors.

[Chill Wills]

drcook, I think there is a lot of good observation/wisdom in your post. I have been thinking about this a lot this past summer.

The long time match director at our BPCR silhouette has stepped down for personal reasons and I am now running the match. Locally, many of the old guard that were regulars have aged and retired from the sport. Our numbers have gotten small. I have been using this thread to get ideas and insight to boost attendance.

New ideas to do this are hard to come by but there have been a few presented here.

For the most part, BPCR is not a game that brings them in from the street but graduates them from the ranks of other shooting games. I (we) will try to convert some new riflemen to BPCR, one person, one shot at a time.

I often have an extra rifle and ammo at a match. Offering it to someone that is "just there to watch" is one way to make a new competitor but that does not happen often. I need to find new ways to bring them to the match as well as keep them.

I like the idea of offering a classification for Non-NRA rifle-powder shooters. These riflemen and women can shoot side-by-side with the NRA bunch to give them a taste of the game. I would hope that soon enough many of them will move to NRA equipment. The ones that do not will have fun too. I did this 12 years ago at a new BPCR silhouette club and it worked a little. Not really great.

We have very successful cowboy lever matches in this area and one of the reasons is the match director welcomes a class for period correct singleshot rifles (200m and 100m games) and in the 100 meter matches will have a period correct revolver class too. No space guns or scopes. The result is larger turnout. The competitor still has the structure of a NRA format match but more people show up.

I hope to get a few of them. The trade off is getting a good return on the time invested in recruiting new shooters.

Larger numbers of people translate into excitement and energy that carries over to the next month. The current turn out to Scheutzen matches where only 3 to 6 people show up is still fun but lacks the "big event - excitement and feel. This adds to the downward spiral.

Working towards personal goals in the game keep competitors coming back. Having small achievements to work on and accumulate as well as peer recondition are strong motivators.


Keep your ideas coming. Thanks!

[TXGunNut]

A few reasons for the decline in some of our shooting sports are beyond the control of the match director. Folks are working longer and harder for less money and quite frankly it takes time & money to shoot competiton. Comp shooters also seem to be getting older and younger shooters are hard to attract to some disciplines. Some days our eyes & other body parts make serious shooting difficult or impossible.
I like the idea of allowing similar types of rifles to compete amongst themselves or for fun. I think it helps them develop as a shooter and adds revenue to the match.
Quite frankly I doubt I'll ever be a serious comp shooter again but I'll never forget the folks I met from all over the country and around the world. I drove many thousands of miles and left several thousand pounds of lead in various backstops around this country but it's the people that made it worthwhile. As drcook pointed out the social aspect is what makes a match special. If you can offer a shooter something more than simply shooting a match you may find more folks on the line and more funds in the kitty.

[Hiwall55]

I agree with all these comments on this page.at our club we have 200 yard buffalo shoots and have single shot,open+scope,levergun,open+scope,and handgun ,open and scope.this gets everyone involved and we bring extra rifles for other people who are interested and it gets them involved too more people win a medals and we have soup in the winter and cook fish in the summer ,so it is a social event.seems to work because when we shoot silohette matches we always pick up new members,Bill

[451 Pete]

Dragoon,
I have been following this thread with interest as I have been co-directing match's in BPCR for about 9 years now and I have seen a lot of what is being discussed here locally at our range. I can give you a few ideas that may help but as has been said in some of the other postings here, it is hard to get new folks into the sport with the restraints on peoples time and money that the current economy is causing.

I think that the most important thing that has not been mentioned here and that you can do as a match director is to ask the shooters what they would like to see at thier match. Ask for the shooters input as to any changes that you can make to make the match a better one. You may get some suprisingly good ideas.

As a result of us doing this we now have a food wagon that serves a breakfast and lunch at the range, we shoot both Saturday and Sunday so that a fellow can get two scores in his record book for the same travel dollar and we have target setters that go out on a four wheeler to reset the targets. ( The target setters and four wheeler are an added match expence and it was the shooters that decided to raise the price of the match to cover this. )

Make it fun. Remember that these fellows are shooters and are coming out to shoot. After the match on Saturday we will open the range back up and sometimes will hold an informal fun shoot. ( In Sept. we had bowling pins painted black out on the pig line, 5 shots 5 bucks, winner take all. Those pins are a challenge to hit. ) Ideas for this sort of thing are only limited by what you can think of. ( Just remember you have to tell them the month before what to bring if your doing something special or different.) One match I was at years ago the guys even brought out sling shots! The shooting with those didnt stop till it was almost too dark to see the tin cans. It was also the only match I ever shot that they let you have a beer. This is the fun sort of thing that adds a plus to your shoot. Some times a BBQ or pot luck for a Saturday dinner after the range is closed can be a good idea too.

Try to be organized. A match that runs smoothly and is enjoyable they will look forward to coming back to. You cant be a one man band. Some of the guys will step forward and lend a hand but you have to ask. It can be someone helping out with posting scores or helping with the range officer duties. Realize you cant do it all yourself. With a cheat sheet and a timer any qualified range officer can call one of these match's. Start your registration for the match early and hold your shooters meeting each morning to make sure any squadding changes or other issues are taken care of. Try to get the match done early on Sunday as the folks need time to get back home to go to work on Monday.

We also set up our range on the Friday afternoon before a match to allow a free range day for practice and sight in for the guys and an added plus is that the guys that come early for the weekend can help you get the targets out so you are all set and ready to go first thing on Saturday morning.

Lastly, thank you for stepping forward to run these match's. I hope that some of the things I have put here will help you out and maybe get you thinking. It is a bit of work on your part but it can be a lot of fun and when the shooters thank you for putting on a good match it is worth while.

Just my thoughts ...... Pete

[Chill Wills]

Good post 451 Pete,

I have asked the guys what they would like that would make the match better and many said they would like help setting, at lest the rams. We are an older bunch and lifting rams is a problem for some.

Any ideas for getting steady Saturday workers for this job? I do not want to add a full time job (for me) calling around and rounding up kids for each match, I have watched this happen at another location; one month Billy can't come and the next month two other kids are on vacation, this kinda thing....

I know we have lost some of the older shooters due to just this reason! As it is now, one guy with a bad back is setting for two other guys with worse backs:holysheep

[451 Pete]

Chill Wills ,
Im not very familiar with the area around where you are but our range is located in a rural farming community. Jobs for younger folks here are a bit hard to come by and in many cases target setting means some extra cash for something a boy wants. ( One of our target setters is a young shooter and after being coached for a few shots and hitting some silhouette targets he asked how much a rifle like these cost He thought about it and now says he is saving up his target setting money to buy a rifle and he just might. He is that kind of a young man. )
Another range I am familiar with got with a local scout troop for help ... once the word got out to the other boys that target setters were making pretty good cash and not having to work too hard the boys were waiting in line to set targets. Also be sure to check with the regulars that come to your match. They may very well have kids or grandkids that will set targets for you.

Take care ... Pete

[Cary T]

Dragoon 45, Good topic with many great responses. Two, that for me are the most interesting are the one about getting others to 'transfer' from another discipline to BPCR and the other is the combining of shooting and social activities. At our monthlies we will typically have a potluck,,barbecue during or just after. The social aspect of our game seems to be quite different than that of some of the other disciplines. Doesn't mean we are not still super competitive, we just approach the 'end' in a different manner.
Take the job, it can be very rewarding, and just do what feels the best for your club,group.
Those that are interested will find you and they are the best to have.
Good Luck
Cary

[MikeS]

Seeing as how BPCR is as somebody here said a sport that brings in converts from other types of shooting rather than folks off the street, perhaps you could see if you could get a couple of the competitors to show up at a match of some other discipline, and see if the range would let them shoot a short mini-match right after the other match (while many of the shooters are still at the range). I bet when they see the rifles shooting, and all the smoke, etc. it would attract some of them. You could give them a flyer about your match, and see if they show up. Then if they show up, loan them a rifle (either you, and/or other long time shooters at the match) and let them join in. This will show them not only how the matches work, but also how friendly the competitors in the match are! Just a thought.