Forster hollow pointing question

[rdlange]

What base do I need for hollow pointing 45-70, 30-30, 35 rem? And what pilots and other parts please? Will also be doing 357 maxi.

I have the original unit, and hoping I can take the parts off and put them on a longer base for long cartridges. Never used this tool yet. Advise please...

Thanks.

[dragon813gt]

You can go to Forster's website and it will tell you exactly what you need. All the parts are transferable to the longer base.


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[arkypete]

Had a friend, a self taught machinist, who made a set of unique hollow pointing reamer/drill for his 458 American 2 inch. Using a 405 grain cast 45 caliber slug his reamer/drill bit made a hollow point that a 22 long rifle would slip into with a bit of pressure, nose first.
He got some impressive bullet expansion when hitting wood.

Jim

[lmcollins]

I have always thought that the way to use the forester tool to hollowpoint would be to do it on the drill press. No length problems, and a quil stop.

If you look at their write up for that drill press trimmer it has an "alignment bar" to set the base up on the drill press table to locate it centered under the drill chuck.
The OAL of the item placed under the chuck is immaterial, and you wouldn't need their special "drill." Just use a center drill. They come in various sizes with the body portion cut to a 60, 82, or 90 degree angle.

On their web site they say that they will cut or grind collets to size. I was thinking of one in .358, .430, and .459 for my uses. I was also wondering if I couldn,t just put a standard off-the-shelf Forester collet in the lathe, and take a small carbide boring tool to it. One collet should be able to be made for at least two bullet diameters.

Get the picture: You process the bullets BEFORE you load them. Maybe even before you size them, so that the collet doesn't change the bullet's size.

Well, anyhow. I've been thinking about this for a couple of years, but don't have the Forester tool to look at, and prehaps try.

Maybe someone else will run with the ball since I've given my thoughts out here on the forum. Buckshot, Lathesmith, and certainly the Perfessor have the ability to check this out if they have the Forester outfit for trimming.

[Junior1942]

I hope someone runs with this ball as I can't drill 10 Forster hollowpoints with less than 3 off-center. There MUST be a way to drill an unloaded bullet so you can recycle one with an off center hole.

[rdlange]

Exactly Junior... getting them drilled centered or drill BEFORE loading is the issue. Maybe I'll just have to make/get jigs to do that with my drill press. Still there must be a way to get the Forster to work right. Someone..?

[Larry Gibson]

I've a 1/8" Forster that I’ve used extensively for years. It is made to work with the Forster case trimmer but some have adapted it to others as mentioned. It is easy to use and works very well once you get the hang of it (not too hard to do). There is a device with an inner cone the centers over the nose of the bullet and guides/keeps the drill centered and straight.
I use the electric drill/screw driver attachment so mine drill easily and quickly. I do flick the lead out of the flutes that the cone device doesn't knock off before HPing the next bullet. Of course softer alloys should be used for HPs and they drill easily. I've also found that best cast bullet HP expansion is when the HP is 1/3 to 1/2 the length of the nose and the alloy is malleable.

My technique is;

1. Leave the collet slightly loose and holding the cartridge case head bottomed out in it.

2. With the right hand (holding the screw driver) slide the drill with the centering cone device on it against the tip of the bullet. The index and thumb of the left hand pull and hold the cone device over the bullet nose. This centers drill hole and drill over the bullet nose. The right hand pushes the drill against the nose of the bullet which pushes the case head against the bottom of the collet holding it in place. The left hand then releases the cartridge and tightens the collet. This is the important step as it keeps the drill centered on the nose of the bullet as the cartridge is tightened in the collet.

3. Left hand then holds the cone device while the screw driver is turned on and the HP is drilled.

4. When the HP is drilled to depth (depth is preset by the stop collar) the screw driver is backed out while still running. Most often the lead drillings come off the drill when the cone device is slid off. If not they are easily flicked off with a finger nail or a small pointy tool. I leave the cone device on the drill for the next cartridge.

5. The collet is loosened and the HP'd cartridge removed and a new cartridge is then put in and the process repeated.

As always, it sound a lot more complicated and harder than it really is. I've HP'd many bullets over the years with complete satisfaction. The nice thing is you can use a regular mould with multiple cavities and cast lots of bullets for general use and practice. Then with the very same bullet but cast of a softer alloy you can HP it and use it for hunting. If you want to shoot a lot of HP bullets for practice, plinking, etc then get a HP mould because it probably will be faster. When used for hunting the Forster HP'd bullets are entirely satisfactory.

I use the 1/8" HP on .30, .31, 8mm and .35 cal rifle bullets for hunting at velocities of 1800 - 2200+ fps. In handguns the Forster 1/8" HP is perfect for .32 H&R, .380 ACP, .38 Special and .357 Magnum with very soft alloyed bullets. For the few .41, .44 and .45 HP bullets (both rifle and handgun) I use a tapered drill (Michael's for rear sling swivel stud holes) to taper/cone shape the HP. I only use HP cast bullets for serious hunting so the Forster tool works very well for me.

Photo's shows some .30 carbine 313631s HP'd (deadly on coyote's when calling them in close - not bad for home defense either) and the RCBS 35-200-FN HP'd for deer hunting.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

What base do I need for hollow pointing 45-70, 30-30, 35 rem? And what pilots and other parts please? Will also be doing 357 maxi.

I have the original unit, and hoping I can take the parts off and put them on a longer base for long cartridges. Never used this tool yet. Advise please...

Thanks.

I've driled additional holes in the base allowing the collet holder and trimmer pilot to be attached farthr apart.

Larry Gibson

[HiVelocity]

Folks-

This method may be a bit quicker and easier considering buying new equipment, etc. I've used this method, and it works pretty well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InSJuNvai54

Just my .02 worth, enjoy!

HV

[Larry Gibson]

The guy in the vidio readily admits the difficulty of keeping the drill bit centered. It might work ok with short stubby rounds like the 9mm the guy used but try that with a long rifle cartridge and a bullet such as a 314299 in the 7.62x54R and see what hapens. The centering cone device that comes with the Forster tool effectively keeps the drill centered if used as i outlined regardless of the cartridge length.

Larry Gibson

[DCM]

IF you have access to a lathe place the bullet/loaded round in the jaws of the chuck and a center drill in the tailstock then drill your nicely centered hollowpoints.

To keep things concentric it is better to spin the bullet than the center drill.

One could also put the bullet in the chuck of the drill press and put a chuck with a center drill mounted to the table for a similar but less repeatable effect.

I have used the Forster in the past and was not pleased with it. YMMV

[lmcollins]

Use the Forester Drill Press Trimmer. FORGET about the bench trimmer.

The idea is to drill the bullet. The drill press can be adjusted for speed by its pullies and belt (think slow?). It can drill about any length of bullet, and the deapth stop on the drill press determines the depth of hollowpointing.

The unit is supposedly made for an "alignment bar" to center the base via the collet under the chuck, and our bullet. Yes, you might have problems with something as small in diamiter as a 3 inch long .264 bullet. Every techology must have some limits.

I have had a lathe since 1977, and I would not put the wear-and-tear on my equipment to do a hundred bullets. This is the kind of **** that someone always shows up and wants me to do on my equipment.

Anyone want to stress the scrolls of their lathe chuck by trying to use it for a barrel vise? You use your 3 jaw chuck! Mines's accurate.

[lmcollins]

I have had one of those Lyman trimmer since they came out in the early 70's. I do not think what he is doing is very safe!

The Lyman trimmer uses a ball bearing to center an UNPRIMED case with a ball bearing into an EMPTY primer pocket. The idiot on the video is placing a primed, and loaded round in the darn trimmer, and tightening it against the ball - all the while he is feeding (pressing) a drill into a lead bullet against the ball.

A careful test? Yes. Production? OK lets hurry a 100 or so.

Maybe we should test?

Someone with a Lyman Trimmer go out and place a primed - but not charged or bulleted case - in their trimmer and see if it will detonate the primer. Don't forget to press against the case mouth with stick of wood between th crank and the case. Make certain to try 50 or so. Now get your HAM HANDED friend to try it. If it works alright for you.

YOU tell me how you and your friend make out. Is he an exfriend, or blind friend?

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is hard to perfectly center a round part unless you are turning it. even so, If you try to drill it and the drill wanders at all you lost that part.

On a lathe the way to do this is by using a center drill or a short stub drill that is very ridgid to esstablish the hole and then drill with a regular drill to whatever depth you want. This is how I would do this if I was HP-ing solid boolits. But I have a machine shop in the back yard.

Once the hole is established in the center of the part the next drill will follow that hole.

On a lathe you can also bore the hole with a boring bar, which is essentially an inside turning tool. By do it this way you are assured of getting a round hole that is centered on what ever center the stock is rotating around. IE if the part is off center in the chuck or collet then the hole will be concentric to the spindle of the machine not the boolit.

None of this helps people who are trying to do this on a drill press.

On a drill press the set up is the key to the whole issue. If you don't have the boolit perfectly centered under the spindle, your hole won't be in the center of the boolit. End of story! [smilie=2:

An alignment bar can get you close, but if you really want it right you'll have to indicate the spindle to the collet with a dial indicator.

I realize most don't have this tool or even know what I'm talking about, however this is the most accurate way to do it.

The Forester HP tools I have seen will do the job however if the tool is not aligned perfectly the hole will be offcenter. Again set up is critical.

Also drilling the hole in the boolet before the round is loaded is preferable, as the loaded round has inherant runout which only makes matters worse.

With the right tooling (IE boolit holders, and drill holders) any case trimming lathe could be made to work acceptably, however I know of no one who makes this tooling even though it would be quite simple to make. Maybe someone here could step up.

In centering holes,,, there is perfect, close, and then there is trash. You have to decide what will work for you. :lovebooli

Randy

[Junior1942]

Bump.

[Eutectic]

W.R. Buchanan is correct.

But it really hinges on what the shooter wants.... You can drill a hollow point into a boolit with a hand drill if expansion is your primary goal and some (or a lot) of accuracy loss is acceptable with you.

I drill a lot of HP boolits. Yes I hunt with them. Yes I use them in accurate rifles on very small and distant stuff sometimes..... But most of my boolits are HP'd because they are usually more accurate with the nose lightened. I find this about 80% of the time. It surprises me when a solid groups better than a HP with a boolit from the same mold.! Good news if it can even keep up!

So spinning the boolit concentrically and drilling with a stationary drill bit exactly on center is doing the job right if more accuracy is paramount.

A machine shop is nice. But I hollow point on an old (but accurate) 3" swing lathe mounted on a piece of 3/4" plywood. I can carry it where I want to work even. I have it setup with collets for every caliber I shoot. It does accurate and concentric work just as well as a bigger stationary lathe and is not a tremendous investment that not only does HP's right, but will make many small gun related projects 'come to life' for one of us 'cast boolit lovers' as well.

Eutectic

[Junior1942]

Think about this: start with an as-cast bullet--naked. Take a fired case and put a dowel or rod inside it. Hand push the naked bullet into the case and let it stop on the top of the dowel/rod. Drill the hollowpoint via Larry Gibson's method. If the hole is centered in the bullet, pull the bullet and lube & size it & load the bullet. If the hole isn't centered, recycle the bullet. Well?????

[Wally]

I have the HP tool, however the drill bit broke on me. It is a 1/8" drill in an aluminum collar---I tried to get the broken drill out of the collar with no luck--can anyone else offer a solution (other than buy a new one from Forester)?

[W.R.Buchanan]

There was an article in Handloader a few months back discussing HPing boolits and the guy used a Sherline hobby lathe and some tapered bits he got from ?

He bought the little lathe specifically to do this one operation.

Small hobby lathes are not expensive and show up alot on Craigs list and Ebay. Keep an eye out. Sherline was one and also there was one called a "Unimat" which was made in Germany and was a pretty good piece of machinery.

There is also one currently made called a "Taig" which is pretty reasonable.

Any of these machines would fit on a 12 x 18 piece of plywood which is what I had mine mounted on.

Mind you these are small very light duty miniature lathes and are good for doing small simple work. They would work fine for hollowpointing any boolit you could make within reason. You could also trim cases and drill out primer hoels etc. However because they are small machines they are very limited as to what you can do and that's why I sold mine along time ago. Even a Craftsman Bench Lathe is light years ahead of a miniature machine.

In machine tools bigger is usually better.

Randy

[DCM]

Glad to see Randy got this headed in the right direction!

Junior has a very good point on cast boolits too, if it isn't centered just recycle it!

[Junior1942]

I figured out how to hollowpoint as-cast bullets on the Forster tool. No extra parts needed. Simply put the naked bullet's gas check shank inside the collet's center hole. Make sure the base of the bullet's bottom lube groove band rests against the end of the collet, i.e., a positive stop. Tighten the collet slightly. Adjust the cutter shaft so the tip of the drill is against the bullet's nose. Then adjust the stop collar on the cutter shaft for the desired hole depth.

Now eyeball align the drill point with the bullet nose in two directions. I used straight downward and straight sideways. Tighten the collet and drill away. I put near- to dead-perfectly centered hollowpoints in naked RCBS 284 168 SPs, our NOE 150 FP 284s, Lyman 150 gr RN Loverins, a Ranch Dog 165 308 FP, and a Hornady 7mm 154 gr SP jacketed. The Hornady jacketed very pointed SP's hole was maybe .002" off center. Maybe less.

I used a #2 collet for all the above. I removed the Forster tool's flat spring-like cam follower, part #10, but I don't think that was necessary. I started to remove the cam, part #4, but I left it in place.

I suspect it's possible to do the above with 357 and 44 and 45 bullets by matching the bullet's base circumference with the different steps inside Forster collets. I have collets #1, #2, and #3, so I will check that later.

[PbHurler]

Thanks for the information Junior! I've been following this thread, but I've never investigated the steps to accomplish the hollowpointing of non loaded bullets in the Forster. I've owned the equipment & collets for 25 years or so, but as you know; so little time so many things to try. Now I've got another thing in the fire! I think I'll play with this this weekend.

Came back to add: The second step of the number 3 collet fits the gas check shank of my RCBS & Accurate Molds' .458 dia (45/70) boolets perfectly!

[Junior1942]

Thanks for that added info, Bob. A Forster tool is suddenly more valuable! For literally years I've wished for a way to put a hollowpoint in RCBS 168 gr SP bullets. All that time my Forster tool sat in a closet because I couldn't realiably get on-center holes in loaded rounds. For some reason I can get more velocity w/great accuracy from my 7mmTCU Contender barrels from the 168 SP than any other of my 7mm molds. I suspect it's the over-long bore rider nose.

Just the other day, a 3-shot 50 yd group with hollowpointed 168 SPs @ 1668 fps from my 10" 7mmTCU barrel gave me 2 shots in 1/2" with a flier opening the group to 1 1/4". The flier was caused by an off-center hollowpoint. It made a yaw hole, if you know what I mean. Because of the high probability of the yawing bullet getting even farther from the group as the range increased, I decided against using that bullet and load for deer hunting. With the new capabilities of my Forster tool, I'll simply recycle bullets with off center holes.

[Eutectic]

Just the other day, a 3-shot 50 yd group with hollowpointed 168 SPs @ 1668 fps from my 10" 7mmTCU barrel gave me 2 shots in 1/2" with a flier opening the group to 1 1/4". The flier was caused by an off-center hollowpoint.

Interesting Junior......

I take it you are talking about the RCBS 168gr mold. I have just pulled out my 7mm TCU Contender barrel (14") and cast those very same boolits. As we experiment over on the lube thread I wanted to put a left hand twist into the picture. I believe this long boolit would be more accurate with a HP to lighten the long nose... ( a straight HP)

That long boolit will be more critical for balance than a short one when HP'ed all other things equal. I would caution that circumferential alignment (the hole straight at start of drilling) is only ONE alignment..... You also have longitudinal alignment (the possibility of the hole running off the axis, or center line, of the boolit. This misalignment the eye won't see..... but the target will. Sorry, but the Forster tool will not guarantee that the hole stays with the axis of the boolit.

Eutectic

[Junior1942]

Interesting Junior....... Sorry, but the Forster tool will not guarantee that the hole stays with the axis of the boolit.

EutecticOh, but yes it will. The axis alignment is controlled by the collet clamped around the gas check shank. As a matter of fact, I was drilling hollowpoints in some sized & lubed 168 SPs when I checked this thread. The gas check slides inside the hole in my #2 collet, and when I tighten the collet, after adjusting the bullet back-and-forth position for proper hole depth, and then centering the drill point on the SP, the bullet is in perfect circumferential and axis alignment with the drill bit. Give it a try.

[Eutectic]

If you're happy Junior.... then I'm happy.

You have gotten sound advice as to the work rotating against a stationary cutter (drill bit in our case) that is by far the best method towards a straight hole. Even setup in a milling machine drilling our boolit would be more susceptible to crawl and it is drill crawl with the Forster that will get you when a flier shows up. It is an intermittent thing.... a hard spot, a small air bubble in one side of the drill hole; these things are a lot worse for crawl with the work stationary. Think of this thread when the flier shows up....

Eutectic

[Junior1942]

Re: "Think of this thread when the flier shows up...."

I'm not trying to get one hole groups. If I were, I wouldn't be using a 10" pistol barrel with a 2x scope. All I want is a better expanding RCBS 168 gr SP, and the ability to simply recycle a mis-drilled bullet instead of wasting a primer, some powder, some lube and a gas check on a mis-drilled loaded round. I now have all of the above.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Here's another little tidbit. Just because you put the boolit in a lathe doesn't mean every hole will go strait down the axis of the part.

A drill with the poiint off center will wander and flex to accomplish it. It is unnerving to watch a drill do this, But I have done it and watched it happen many times. This is why 90% of the drills I use in my shop are Stub length drills.

They are shorter and stiffer and don't flex like a jobber length drill does. As a result they don't usually wander like a longer drill can. Mind you, they are not completely immune, they are just less likely, and if they do wander it will be less than a longer drill would given the same circumstances.

Believe me,,, nothing is perfect. I've been trying really hard for a long time and it ain't happened yet.

Randy

[40Super]

We don't drill a hole at work even without first using a centerdrill to get the hole started centered. Drill crawl effect even us machine for a living.;-)

But for what he wants out of his ammo will do just fine, it is lead so it should drill centered easier.

[Larry Gibson]

If the Forster drill centering guide is used correctly a whole lot of the above are alleviated. It is not hard to do, just takes a little practice and you should have it down in less than 20 bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Junior1942]

If the Forster drill centering guide is used correctly a whole lot of the above are alleviated. It is not hard to do, just takes a little practice and you should have it down in less than 20 bullets.

Larry GibsonYou have tried 1/16" rifle hp-ing, huh, Larry? I gave up when I didn't "have it down" after WAY more than 20 rifle bullets.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Something you can do to stiffen up a small drill is to make a sleeve for it by drilling thru a piece of round stock with that drill.. You only leave the amount of drill sticking out that you need to go into the work. If you were to drill thru a piece of 1/4" rod with a 1/16" drill and then leave 1/4" sticking out it would not flex when you drilled into your boolits.

Drills wander because the flex. They flex because the length of the drill is much longer than the diameter.

Obviously the shorter and fatter a drill is the less it will flex, even if it is introduced into the work off center. In that case if just bores the hole with one side of the drill like a boring bar does.

However it will only work that way if it is stiff enough to resist flexing to try to center itself.

I have drilled @ 1600 holes with the drill in that chuck in the last 2 weeks. Not one has been centerdrilled or has wandered. if I had to centerdrill every hole to insure placement It would ahve been 3200 holes! It got old after 50 holes so I didn't need the extra work.

Here is a pic of the difference between a Stub or Screw machine length drill and a regular Jobber length drill. Which one do you think will flex more?

The pic of the drill index kinda shows that 95% of the drills I use are stub length drills and the only time I use the long ones is when I have to.

randy

[40Super]

Aww, aluminum is easy, that doesn't need a c'drill, try doing that in 316 stainless steel like I have to, you will center drill, I seldom can use stub drills. Of course in a cnc it does the tool change for me.:mrgreen:

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just made these (on left) out of 316 a few weeks ago. Never use a center drill for bolt holes when using Stub length drills. They do need to be sharp for SS so I usually end up using a new one, same for the Titanium parts I make to go with these (on right).

Randy

[Junior1942]

Randy, are those some of the doohickys you screw to a thingamabob and make one of those whatchamacallits? Kidding aside, that's beautiful work. I salute you!

[40Super]

Ya. sharpness is the main issue with keeping thins going centered. After 50 of them at 1inch deep, it doesn't work as well. SS is a royal PITA to work with day in day out.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Junior: the parts go to what are know as "Guide Door Latches"

On the front and rear of the launch tube there are doors with membranes that the missiles shoot thru, They are called the guide doors.

These doors are hinged on one side and have two latches on the other. The parts in that tray are some of the parts, there is also a 1/2 SS eyebolt and a big SS knob.

The trunion bolts to the flat plate that bolts to the launch tube. The eye bolt pivots in the trunion, and mates up to the striker plate (piece with slot) which is bolted to the guide door, then the big knob is tightened up to lock the door shut.

This pic is the best I can do as I just sold almost all the parts I had in stock last month. You just have to imagine a 1/2 SS eyebolt connecting the two groups of parts.

The other pic has 3 titanium striker plates 2 mounting plates and one trunion.

Here's a pic of the launcher These parts are located on the back edge of the front of the launch tube which is actually on the bottom of this pic. You can see them hanging off the launch tube. This is a pic of a special launcher that fires a different kind of missle, but it is the same basic animal.

PS: if see what is in the third pic coming , you are F(*&ed! Just smile and wait for flash!

Randy

[Junior1942]

Randy, you have redefined "cool"!

[W.R.Buchanan]

I thought you would get a kick out of that.

Randy

[DCM]

You have tried 1/16" rifle hp-ing, huh, Larry? I gave up when I didn't "have it down" after WAY more than 20 rifle bullets.

That is EXACTLY what caused me to give up on the Forster unit years ago, WAY more than 20 0n Spitzer types too.

WRB I am REALLY with junior on that one! VERY cool! Neat photos!

[NYBushBro]

I'd like to use one of those on a hog... :-)

[W.R.Buchanan]

There are better uses than hogs,,, believe me.

Politicians?

Randy