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MBTcustom
10-04-2012, 05:03 PM
I have found it necessary to make custom springs on occasion.
Sometimes the only thing standing in the way of good function is adding or subtracting a few pounds from a spring.
The concept of a spring is a simple one. For the most part, what determines the strength of a spring is the gauge of the wire, the coil diameter and the length. The number of coils seem to have little effect on the power that is transferred to the application in comparison with these other variables.
This is just a rough explanation of how I make springs. Please understand that I am not a metallurgist, nor a mathematician. I am a gunsmith/machinist/blacksmith so what you see is what you get, and it is based completely on my experience.
The basic principle of heat treating carbon steel is that you heat it to a cherry red and quench it in oil, producing a very hard, brittle metal.
The next step is to draw the steel back to produce more toughness and less brittleness/wear resistance. This is accomplished by heating the steel to a lesser degree and holding it there for a certain period of time. The draw range for carbon steel is somewhere between 300 degrees (this gives a brittle knife quality result) to 800 degrees (This gives a slightly hard, very tough result that will easily take a set when bent, but can be bent quite far while still giving good resistant force compared to fully annealed steel.)
For spring steel, we want something in between these two extremes.
I have developed a process that gives good results most of the time (ie it hasn't failed me yet) and is easily accomplished without the aid of a heat treat oven.
I have coils of spring material of all different sizes to make custom springs out of, but in a pinch, I have been known to straiten a existing spring of the right gauge wire to get a starting point, by vicing one end of the spring and grabbing the other with pliers, and using a propane torch to straiten it out while it is being annealed.
For short springs, (less than 2.5" long) I wrap the wire around a mandrel while using the torch to help it take form. When I have formed the coils, I hold the spring with needle nosed pliers and use a torch to bring the whole thing to a cherry red glow, then quickly plunge the spring into a jar of oil.
If you need to make a longer spring, you need to make a crucible to help you get even heat over the whole length of the spring. To do this, use your lathe to drill a hole in a piece of round, steel, bar that is a little longer than the spring and only slightly bigger than your spring's OD.
Drill a 1/16 hole near one end of this "tube". Slip the spring into the crucible and then use a finish nail to keep it from falling out.
Hold the crucible with vice grips very near the top of the crucible.
Use your torch to bring the whole crucible up to a cherry red, hold it over the jar of oil and quickly pull out the nail, allowing the spring to fall into the oil.
Now, you need to bring the spring up to a temperature of about 600 degrees and hold it there for about an hour.
Use your lead pot to do this![smilie=l:
Clean the oil from the springs very carefully as this will act like flux and make the lead stick to your springs like glue.
Slip the springs into your pot and leave them for an hour at least.
Take 'em out and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
So far, it works every time, and I take great pride in that I came up with another use for a lead pot in this trade![smilie=l:

blackbike
10-10-2012, 02:57 AM
Howdy Tim,
Thanks for that tip, it will come in mighty handy.

I see your a MOD. now, congrads.
You have plenty of knowledge, and are willing to share it.
I caint think of a better guy for the job.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks, BB

Wal'
10-10-2012, 04:05 AM
Making springs FYI...........cut & pasted, thanks.

& congrat's on your mod status. :2_high5:

:cbpour:

MBTcustom
10-10-2012, 08:15 AM
Thanks guys, I'm honored to be able to help.

HotGuns
10-12-2012, 06:58 AM
I use the spring packs that you can get from various places. They are several different gauge wires made from piano wire that are already tempered.

You just bend them like you want them and they work great. The typical spring wire pack might have 25 different wire diameters in it and they are cut in 12" lengths. Cost is around 15-20 bucks but its some of the best money I have ever spent. Definatley worth it and it is quick and easy.

Got a broken spring? Grab the right diameter wire and replicate it. I can't tell you how many guns I have fixed this way. Its quick and easy. You can get them at Brownells or many hardware shops.

Great post,btw.

Junior1942
10-12-2012, 07:17 AM
Tim, you're a genius.

MBTcustom
10-12-2012, 07:21 AM
I use the spring packs that you can get from various places. They are several different gauge wires made from piano wire that are already tempered.

You just bend them like you want them and they work great. The typical spring wire pack might have 25 different wire diameters in it and they are cut in 12" lengths. Cost is around 15-20 bucks but its some of the best money I have ever spent. Definatley worth it and it is quick and easy.

Got a broken spring? Grab the right diameter wire and replicate it. I can't tell you how many guns I have fixed this way. Its quick and easy. You can get them at Brownells or many hardware shops.

Great post,btw.

Believe me, I wish it were that simple all the time, but on occasion it just isn't.
There are times when a custom spring is the only way to get the job done.

mrbill2
10-12-2012, 11:48 AM
Here is more good information on spring making.
http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/intro.html

MBTcustom
10-12-2012, 01:11 PM
I have read that link before. And I tried making springs that way, but I could not get satisfactory results, and I got cut several times trying. I did have reasonable success with that method when dealing with very light springs, but most of my projects need something that uses .018-.050 spring wire, wrapped to tight little coils, and that just aint happening with the "wrap it cold" method.
Heck one spring I made used .045 wire and had a 1/8" hole going down the middle of the spring. It was a trick even with the way I described above, but I used a carbide mandrel and wrapped the red hot wire around it. (Fortunately it wasn't a very long spring). That would have been very difficult to wrap cold unless you built a special fixture, but I had it made and installed very quickly, using the "wrap it hot and re-temper" technique.

mrbill2
10-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Well, some things just don't work well for everybody. There are lots of ways to make springs. My link just show another method and it works for me.

MBTcustom
10-12-2012, 04:03 PM
Absolutely! and thanks for referencing it.
Could you post up some pictures of your winding jig? I just couldn't get a sturdy enough design (probably my fault) to wind heavy wire, but I fully recognize that there are lots of other folks who do it that way.
Another thing I would ask is how do you calculate the size of the mandrel? The hot wind style makes a very close copy of the mandrel, while the cold wind method opens back up a little after it is wound. I could not get a decent result with tightly wound springs. After getting snapped and poked a few times, I decided that for me, cold winding is like rollerskating uphill. So I developed this method.
Its not the only way, but its a way that might work for somebody here. Especially if that somebody is used to working with hot metals.

Oreo
10-12-2012, 04:09 PM
Question: When you say cherry-red, are you referencing the color of the glowing hot metal or just broadly referencing the fact that the steel should be heated until glowing?

MBTcustom
10-12-2012, 07:09 PM
Good question!
My manufacturing education started in front of a coal forge and occasionally I defer to the terminology used in that trade.
Observe the chart in this link.
http://www.smex.net.au/Reference/SteelColours.htm
If you spend much time heating metals, you can tell what temperature that steel is from 300-2500 within 50 degrees just by the color.
You ever wonder why spring steel often has that dark blue color to it? It wasn't blued that way, it was the drawing process that induced that color onto the surface. Look at the chart and see what temperature that is. That's why I used the lead pot. That's why all of the screws on your molds end up the same color as spring steel, as well as the pot itself etc etc. OK yeah, they may be a little closer to the grey shades (the next colors not given on the chart) but for the most part all of our casting equipment runs in that window.
And to think how many hours I spent learning how to hit that specific color and be able to see it happen in a coal forge (basically like a 4" rosebud tip on an acetylene torch.) I wish I had thought of this years ago when I was making knives. It would have simplified everything.
I am actually experimenting with the alloy that I use for drawing the steel. WW lead melts at about 550 and is useful for this application when it hits 600, but that is just a touch on the high side for drawing a spring. I would really like to have the melt run molten at 550 to be perfect. I know that eutectic solder (63% tin) melts at 375 degrees, so I am tinkering with an alloy of about 40% Tin to get me down to 550 degrees molten temperature. The bummer of it is that the pot then cannot be used for normal boolit alloy until it is emptied. Oh well, this is working great so far.

mrbill2
10-12-2012, 08:09 PM
"I am actually experimenting with the alloy that I use for drawing the steel. WW lead melts at about 550 and is useful for this application when it hits 600, but that is just a touch on the high side for drawing a spring. I would really like to have the melt run molten at 550 to be perfect. I know that eutectic solder (63% tin) melts at 375 degrees, so I am tinkering with an alloy of about 40% Tin to get me down to 550 degrees molten temperature. The bummer of it is that the pot then cannot be used for normal boolit alloy until it is emptied. Oh well, this is working great so far."
If you need 550 degrees molten temperature, I would use LINOTYPE. My Lyman casting thermometer shows a casting range from 470 to 570 for linotype.
__________________

MBTcustom
10-12-2012, 09:24 PM
Ha! excellent tip! Thank you very much.

44man
10-14-2012, 02:18 PM
The hardest springs to make are muzzle loader mainsprings and frizzen springs. I had many break but all of my home made ones are still going strong after over 30 years.
Just the lead pot to temper.
Many small wire wound springs are not hardened and tempered again. They are just wound and shaped from spring steel wire.

MBTcustom
10-14-2012, 03:04 PM
The hardest springs to make are muzzle loader mainsprings and frizzen springs. I had many break but all of my home made ones are still going strong after over 30 years.
Just the lead pot to temper.
Many small wire wound springs are not hardened and tempered again. They are just wound and shaped from spring steel wire.

So you used the lead pot trick on your frizzen springs? That just shows to go ya that there is nothing new under the sun.
The only reference I could find for making gun springs said to put the spring in a shallow dish and fill the dish with used motor oil until the spring was covered and then use a torch lightly on the bottom if the dish to heat the oil until it starts to smoke. Keep at it until all the oil has burned off. I read that and thought it sounded like an expensive, time consuming, smoky, nasty, mess, so set down and started thinking about alternatives. That's where I came up with the lead pot idea. Its a very intuitive fix and I'm not surprised in the least that somebody else thought of it too.

waksupi
10-14-2012, 06:02 PM
I've used lead pot, niter, and the old magnet trick.

RayinNH
10-14-2012, 09:44 PM
Tim you can also get a nice even heat/color by heating the springs in a pot of lead over the forge. Heat until the lead glows a cherry red. Use smithing tongs with a ring on the reigns to clamp onto the spring in a spot that won't affect the spring and submerge in the lead until heated throughout. I've been told that if you use peanut oil for hardening, your shop will smell like fresh baked cookies :p. Needless to say don't hover above the pot and breathe the fumes.

To those that have never made springs, the cherry red color referenced is always viewed in a dark or subdued light. Walk outdoors in bright sunlight and you won't see any color.

Congrats on the mod status...Ray

MBTcustom
10-14-2012, 10:21 PM
Thanks Ray, it seems you know something of the old ways. Kudos!